Not sure if there was a thread for this but anyway just to introduce myself i am a experienced control player and have nearly made top 8 in a couple of scg opens with control. I also got a top 8 finish at states with a uw control deck as well back in khans standard.
I know there has been several successful uw control decks in the current standard. I am too lazy to bring those up but thats ok, Id like to discuss my take on uw control which has been testing pretty well against both gb delirium and uw flash but for sure both matchups have alot of play to it. So if you really want to be successful in standard its always good to practice as much as you can with a deck that you like. Play as much as possible of course.
Anyway here is my updated list it has been through quite a few changes in the past month or so.
Linvala, the preserver: I tested two for a little while but the second copy almost always didn't do anything. So I like the one copy. This card is great at trumping those fast starts from any deck that is going aggressive. With the help of countermagic and removal it should definitely buy you enough time to slam down a linvala to win games that you are not suppose to win.
Immotaling glare/Stasis snare/blessed alliance: Instant speed removal is always great in a control deck that plays primary draw go so you can leverage your counters better and in the course of the game they can be more effective.
Quantine Field: This deck as you notice has a very tough time against resolved planeswalkers and so everytime i casted one of these the game became shortly in my favor. They are pretty good so i want three of them in the main.
Blighted Cateract: When your flooded on lands and when your playing at the top of your deck this is the card you definitely want in the late game.
Negate: A great two mana counters that is a hard ccounter to vehicles, aetherworks, opposing countermagic and planeswalkers is definitely great.
Descend upon the sinful: Great against the industrible cause so something like archangel avacyn doesn't blow you out. Ive also got a free 4/4 flyer out of it on occassion too which is very useful.
void shatter: A great three mana hard counter don't want to leave home without them.
Summary dismissal: Swiss army knight, counters planeswalker emblems, stops emrakrul and is a great four mana hard counter in the late game as well.
Fumigate: Still a solid and relevant sweeper, the gaining back some life here and there is also relevant.
Jace: Great at leveraging in a good amount of situations and of course gives this deck alot of digging power as well as some staying power.
Glimmer of genius: This is pretty much one of the cards that keeps this deck together and functioning and is the main reason why i like playing control right now.
Anticipate: Definitely makes this deck more consistent and digs for what you need.
Torrential Hulk: The absurd staple for all blue control decks in standard and i think its the best card in standard right now and I do not think its close imo.
Revolutionary rebuff: A soft counter but still pretty good at using your mana more efficiently in every stage of the game that matters.
Gisela: A pretty decent threat against uw flash and can put a clock on gb delilirium as well which is revelant. Lets you switch gears into more of a tempo control deck and goes well with spell quellers.
Sphinx: A decent finisher, i just like it since it can finish games sooner and can't be hit by any spot removal which is huge. I tend to board this card in against both uw flash and gb delirium.
Gideon: A great way to help you finish games on time and can pressure opposing planeswalkers backed up with countermagic and/or removal if necassary.
Spell queller: Can change the dynamic of how this deck can play. Great card to bring in against both of the most popular matchups can definitely make uw control much more aggressive as well.
Anyway, i don't think this deck is the best deck in the format but i definitely think this deck is pretty legit and its what i would for sure play at the scg invitational next week if i could go. I definitely think it has alot of game against alot if you play every turn correctly. I will definitely will try to provide more updates to this deck as the format progresses.
I think that with all the GB aggro decks that just plainly die to Fumigate, the deck can work pretty well. In my testing, Dovin Baan has been very good. Managed to go 4-1 in a Friendly league this weekend and failed the 5-0 just by a super close game.
Took out 1 anticipate and added 1 confirm suspicions as a more dig-deep card.
1. Negates are pretty good main.
2. Must find a replacement for 1 Blessed Alliance, probably another Immotaling Glare.
3. Could see cutting 1 Fumigate main to the sideboard, since I've been facing many U/X/x control and Marvel/ Saheeli combos. Could move 1 Sphin of the Final word into the main to have an out game 1 for the control mirrors.
4. Might still need a better 2 mana removal in the side for the more aggro matchups to get alive to turn 4 and 5.
5. Spell Queller could be on the side for the mirrors to pressure Pw that have been somewhat problematic at times (Saheeli most of the time)
6. Confirm Suspicious has been lucklaster. Will need a bit more testing.
Didn't know this thread was a thing! I won game day with my pure control UW list, even managing to beat BG and saheeli with two mulls to 5. The efficiency of white removal is so far beyond anything else while still being especially gentle on your mana. Not to mention having many exile sources while still being able to gain life makes for a a very smooth game.
I've been brewing a U/W control deck based around Baral's Expertise into a big 4 CMC. Mostly Gisela, The broken Blade, Dovin Baan and Gideon, Ally of zendikar for big tempo swings. 2 of those 3 targets dodge fumigate quite nicely and the other one can be recursed later with her sister to seal the game. I'll be hitting the LGS today and tomorrow to give it a go, is there anything I might be missing? I know there's some B/G in my local meta, and barely any CopyCat decks, with a decent share of the meta being mostly R/G Pummeler/aggro builds and Mardu/Boros vehicles, there will definetly be one U/B control my friend plays and a marvel deck the Store owner has to lend to people that don't have a deck/want to test. Pretty sure I saw a U/W spirits from one of the regulars aswell.
I'm still undecided between Thing in the ice and Baral, Chief of compliance MD. But since I only have 2 Barals I decided I'd give it a go with TiTi at first, especially with the predominance of aggro lists. I don't run that much countermagic to abuse the looting on the Chief so that might be another thing to consider in case Baral turns out better.
Nice guys! Glad to see you guys doing well and contributing to the thread.
Apparently our build are very different but the core is pretty much the same. I would love to test Baral's Expertise as it looks awesome for tempo swings and getting back into games that are getting out of control.
Didn't know this thread was a thing! I won game day with my pure control UW list, even managing to beat BG and saheeli with two mulls to 5. The efficiency of white removal is so far beyond anything else while still being especially gentle on your mana. Not to mention having many exile sources while still being able to gain life makes for a a very smooth game.
I totally agree on the removal, not much more you can ask for really. I was thinking on going Void Shatter too, but the utility from negating several abilites/effects have come in handy pretty often with Disallow.
I've been brewing a U/W control deck based around Baral's Expertise into a big 4 CMC. Mostly Gisela, The broken Blade, Dovin Baan and Gideon, Ally of zendikar for big tempo swings. 2 of those 3 targets dodge fumigate quite nicely and the other one can be recursed later with her sister to seal the game. I'll be hitting the LGS today and tomorrow to give it a go, is there anything I might be missing? I know there's some B/G in my local meta, and barely any CopyCat decks, with a decent share of the meta being mostly R/G Pummeler/aggro builds and Mardu/Boros vehicles, there will definetly be one U/B control my friend plays and a marvel deck the Store owner has to lend to people that don't have a deck/want to test. Pretty sure I saw a U/W spirits from one of the regulars aswell.
I'm still undecided between Thing in the ice and Baral, Chief of compliance MD. But since I only have 2 Barals I decided I'd give it a go with TiTi at first, especially with the predominance of aggro lists. I don't run that much countermagic to abuse the looting on the Chief so that might be another thing to consider in case Baral turns out better.
Your build looks more of a Midrange deck than a Control dck but still looks nice. Same core as the UW control but no Torrential Gearhulks. I like the Angel pack as a win-con, but the Things in the Ice are really not fitting in there. Looks clucnky in paper, but what can you comments on this?
I just got home after playtesting (thank god for 3 workday weeks :D). I'll probably head back there earlier tomorrow and playtest a bit more and see if I can fine-tune it to play the FNM. Overall the deck plays smooth, but has some flaws, basically scoops to UBx control until you can side in your sphinxes, and the Pummeler builds just scoop to a decently timed Glare.
Your build looks more of a Midrange deck than a Control dck but still looks nice.
Yes, the main idea is to seal the game before you run out of gas by restricting your opponent a little bit, and then making big tempo plays rather than go for the super long games.
Same core as the UW control but no Torrential Gearhulks. I like the Angel pack as a win-con, but the Things in the Ice are really not fitting in there. Looks clucnky in paper, but what can you comments on this?
The idea behind Thing was to have something to slam on turn 2 and help me not get rushed down, not flip it immediately. The thing is great at making attacks akward early and getting removal out of the opponents hand, the B/G/Mardu vehicles lists I got to play against only ran 1 or 2 Fatal Push MD. So the Expertise into Gisela strat worked out most of the time. On that note, Gisela is an Angel Horror, so she doesn't get hit by the Thing transforming, and leads to some monstrous (pun intended) game swings, unanswered, you can swing for 11 on turn 6, a lot of stuff has to happen your way, but the potential is there.
Expertise into Dovin was also a nice play vs most lists, they didn't seem go THAT wide before you can pull it off, and the shrink on dovin made things easier, by the time they can even take a shot at him he's already about to ult, or has given me a lot of card advantage and lifegain it felt riddic. Had a Vehicles guy scoop twice to Expertise into Dovin followed up by a fumigate when he tried to rebuild. Gideon on the other hand didn't feel that great, sure you make a chump blocker every turn, but by the time I got a decent -4 or +1 I was already ahead by a mile. And generally slamming him on turn 4 only helped my life total be 5-6 points higher with no real impact on the game, there were a couple times where he was helpful turn 4, but I'd rather have had other options.
I might cut Gideon and Linvala for 2 Gearhulks tomorrow, between Glares, Fumigates and Expertises and the lifelink from Gis there wasn't really any time I could use her to full benefit, by the time I drew her the game was virtually over or I needed something to chump with, and I think Flashing a hulk into removal/draw would have been way stronger.
The B/G matchup isn't horrible, but It definetly needs improving, I didn't keep track but every game felt super close and If you let a Walking ballista Unchecked it will wreck your day. While negate was there mostly for protecting your stuff I might have to go with Ceremonious Rejection in the main just so I can deal with the Scrapheap Scrounger and the ballistas.
An awful matchup was B/R zombies, with no exile effects other than Horribly Awry in the sideboard and them having an answer in either harnessed lightning, Lightning axe or fatal push to my beaters their recursion slowly won most games. I think the only games I won were on the back of Brisela, voice of nightmares Simply cause he didn't have an answer for the trigger, or I had enough time to hit 9 lands and squeeze a negate in there, the one time I resolved a Linvala with life gain and a token It got EOT Axe'd into Fiery Temper on the token, into scrounger, Triple amalgam. Felt awful, lol.
Didn't play any CopyCat lists, but the matchup is probably horrendous if they go the control approach. Even after SB, it might be an uphill battle.
In retrospective, the deck played the way I anticipated, and I had a lot of fun, the mana base could use some tweaking, while I didn't run into any major problems, an oppening hand of 2 Streams and a Port town isn't the best. And having both fumigate and Expertise in hand felt super akward. Maybe the way to go with my idea is esper or U/B, but I'll keep testing as Azorius - Look at my avatar, for crying out loud!
I'll probably copy stokpile's list and work from there.
I've actaully made a few tweaks to my UW list. I've been testing every control variant in standard from UB to grixis to BG Seasons Past (still unclear if the deck is real or not) and I kept falling back to UW. Even though a red splash gives you more 'unrestricted' removal in that you can fire it off at any time, the mana is just not nearly reliable enough. And I say that because the majority of games that I had a clean win against BG or vehicles was where I could go untapped land 1 through 6 and that is what UW has to offer. The main reason this came up was to cast a quarantine field for XX=2 on curve to snag a gideon and a vehicle or him and his knight is such a massive swing in out direction that it's enough to pull firmly in the lead. Technically UB is best on paper, but again the mana just doesn't work out. B on 1, BB on 2 and then UU on 3 just isn't good enough. Here's where I'm at right now.
Thoughts on the weird stuff
I decided to put in the dec in stone for an additional proactive removal spell not named stasis snare. I wanted another cmc 2 piece of interaction and the exile effect is obviously relevant. Swapped the linvala for the 4th hulk because I was having a lot of trouble winning in the control mirror, especially with a lack of manlands. Depending on how things shook out I could be miles ahead but actually be out of ways to end the game due to the obscene amounts of answers they could have. Against uwr for example their harnessed lightning turns into terminate in the late game so there just aren't enough counters to protect a 6 mana sorcery. I'd still like to run a linvala main, but there's just no room right now that I can see.
Also for this reason I moved a confirm suspicions into the main because I always felt like I needed just one extra draw spell, even against vehicles. Nearly every lost to beat down decks was from me drawing 4 lands in a row midgame when I stabilized while they drew action so having an extra sink is necessary. I chose confirm because it at least does something aside from draw cards and is awesome in control mirrors. I considered a third jace because he is so damned powerful, but I didn't want another expensive sorcery. Also the third rebuff was changed to a horribly awry which has been fine. It had to be another cmc 2 spell but it was also a way to stop a felidar guardian and it interacts with spellqueller. Being unable to interact with creatures outside of combat means some concessions must be made for those sorts of value creatures.
Over in the side I put in a sphinx of magosi (standard legal from the welcome decks) because I needed another win con for BGstuff.dec and it had to have flying. Why? Because when they never attack with hissing quagmire it gets hard to actually kill your opponent. Yeah, that's really awkward. It also can draw you some cards and final word sphinx is also a consideration, but I'd never want to bring it in against them and vs control it's too hard to tap that much mana main phase in the first place and not die. Lastly the Sky shot is basically to kill trackers and the like outside of combat. Again, having to make some odd choices in removal when you're restricted to the attack step.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
So, I started tinkering with UR (Energy) Control and found it was a lot of fun to play. I used to love playing Draw-Go Control and it was great getting to play a deck again where I wasn't tapping out on my turn. The problem I was running into was that if they landed a Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, you scooped it up. The options seemed scarce. If he got into play, you have Shock and Dynavolt Tower. Beyond that, it was tough. Planeswalkers are not a 'new' issue for blue-based control and when you have a way to stop them from landing, it's not bad. It just didn't feel right.
From there, I decided to try UW. I started with this list
It played out pretty well. The synergy of Dynavolt Tower and all the instants combined with the white removal felt a little nicer than the red splash version. Fumigate is strong enough to be worth it as a Sorcery and Dovin Baan and Jace, Unraveler of Secrets both work to give you time to draw into the long game where this deck wins with inevitability. The issue was that Dynavolt Tower never seemed 'right'. It was good, no doubt, but it often felt underpowered. It's slow, and doesn't hit several problem creatures. It gives a 'sometimes' answer to a planeswalker, but often took two turns (and several spells) to finish one off. So I started looking at just replacing it with a walker of my own and have been playing this...
It plays a little better. Games definitely close out faster once you take control, but it's still miserable not being able to do anything against a Chandra as she ticks up...
The options I'm looking at right now are Imprisoned in the Moon and Anguished Unmaking with Anguished Unmaking looking like the best alternative. After reading quite a few of the things Shaheen Soorani, I like the idea of Esper Control, but I'm not sure that the commitment to black is as necessary as it looks. The white removal is very good and very easy on the mana. If white (or blue) could deal with walkers more efficiently, there would be no reason to look to black. With black, though, we get a lot of efficient ways to deal with them. Here's what I'm looking at now...
Your best option to kill gideon as UW control is simply stasis snare which you really should be running at least 2 of to start. It almost never just sits there making dorks and snare can tag him along with exiling a scrounger. The other more cheeky way of getting rid of him when he animates is to kill off other attackers and blessed alliance. I've even had times where I had a tower and only 4 energy to bless, hold priority, gain 2 energy, tower down a thing and leave them with gideon to sac. You have great options for removing him, you just need to jump through a hoop first which isn't too difficult. This is of course assuming you don't have a quarantine field to gobble up him and a few other annoyances.
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I don't know that I would call those 'great' options. I've tried Stasis Snare in the sideboard and almost never wanted to side it in. WW1 might seem like it's low cost, but it's really not in this format. Unless you're willing to take a hit and cast at EOT, you won't always have enough mana up to stop the next Gideon from landing. Stasis Snare is an answer, but I don't think it's particularly good. It's slow and it still leaves you vulnerable to the other threats. Not to mention it does nothing against an active Chandra.
Most of the better players I've played recently play around Alliance, too. Having Gideon throw out a couple soldiers before they attack isn't hard.
Quarantine Field looks great on paper, but, in my experience, it's just too slow. 4 mana to remove 1 card and 6 mana to remove 2 provides a huge opportunity, especially when you have to tap out on your turn. It can work, but you have to have a lot of things already going your way and you need to be able to either set it up or follow it up effectively. Personally, I tend to like to have more open lines of play as opposed to being forced into certain paths.
I haven't been able to play on MTGO in any leagues, but I went 3-1 on my FNM, only barely lost 2-1 to Jund Energy Aggro, him with the nut draws both times and timely top decks.
Not completely sold on his build but 98% as I'm playing it actually. The 4th Torrential Gearhulk seems clunky.
2 x Blighted Cataract seems OK, but I would only play x1. X3 Gideons is fine but I would rather play 1 Dovin.
I don't know that I would call those 'great' options. I've tried Stasis Snare in the sideboard and almost never wanted to side it in. WW1 might seem like it's low cost, but it's really not in this format. Unless you're willing to take a hit and cast at EOT, you won't always have enough mana up to stop the next Gideon from landing. Stasis Snare is an answer, but I don't think it's particularly good. It's slow and it still leaves you vulnerable to the other threats. Not to mention it does nothing against an active Chandra.
Most of the better players I've played recently play around Alliance, too. Having Gideon throw out a couple soldiers before they attack isn't hard.
Quarantine Field looks great on paper, but, in my experience, it's just too slow. 4 mana to remove 1 card and 6 mana to remove 2 provides a huge opportunity, especially when you have to tap out on your turn. It can work, but you have to have a lot of things already going your way and you need to be able to either set it up or follow it up effectively. Personally, I tend to like to have more open lines of play as opposed to being forced into certain paths.
Actually, I recently added 1 Quarantine Field to the main, and it has been great for me. The flexibility it gives you as a 1-of is perfect. Late game is awesome and can sometimes win you the game on the spot. Early game is not great of course, but now I don't see the deck playing without one at least.
I haven't played this specific build, but reading the pilot's comments after EFro's article, I've found some of the same things.
This build is heavily set up for aggro and I'm not convinced it needs to be that heavily slanted to do well against Mardu and B/G. I've been playing 8 maindeck removal spells online and have been having a fine time. Blessed Alliance is the weakest, in my opinion, as it's the easiest to play around and the most expected. At 15 removal spells, I feel like you are not going to be recurring much besides removal and, as you take control, I would think you would like more counters to shift from reactive to proactive. That could just be the way I play, though. I also find that recurring creature removal just seems sub-optimal. If you flash in Gearhulk, he can take down most creatures on his own. Casting Glare or Alliance from the graveyard just never seems like the best play... Great as an option, but it's usually low on the wishlist...
I couldn't make Dovin Baan work. I want him to be relevant, but he just doesn't turn out to be as good as you want.
I may try a couple test games just to see how it plays, but I'm not sold on needing that much removal. I'd prefer something else or a better answer to walkers.
I haven't played this specific build, but reading the pilot's comments after EFro's article, I've found some of the same things.
This build is heavily set up for aggro and I'm not convinced it needs to be that heavily slanted to do well against Mardu and B/G. I've been playing 8 maindeck removal spells online and have been having a fine time. Blessed Alliance is the weakest, in my opinion, as it's the easiest to play around and the most expected. At 15 removal spells, I feel like you are not going to be recurring much besides removal and, as you take control, I would think you would like more counters to shift from reactive to proactive. That could just be the way I play, though. I also find that recurring creature removal just seems sub-optimal. If you flash in Gearhulk, he can take down most creatures on his own. Casting Glare or Alliance from the graveyard just never seems like the best play... Great as an option, but it's usually low on the wishlist...
I couldn't make Dovin Baan work. I want him to be relevant, but he just doesn't turn out to be as good as you want.
I may try a couple test games just to see how it plays, but I'm not sold on needing that much removal. I'd prefer something else or a better answer to walkers.
True, Blessed is in my opinion only needed as a 1-of max 2 in the main. I would rather play x2 Anticipates there. Again, Dovin is in my list only because I've found that the life gain is relevant to sometimes just live that extra turn and stabilize, plus the card. It a great top deck on a controlled board and late game is a dig-deeper card. The ultimate is a real thing and i've won 1 or 2 games with it but not exactly the best route to take.
Also , the way I play against walkers or my sequences go like this. Removal turn 2 and 3, try an don't tap out for the PW to resolve and make them play slowish or waste mana, if things are goin my way, I resolve a Gideon/Dovin turn 4-5 and then stabilize with a Fumigate and try and run away with the game with my PW's and defend them. But its hard, since most of our Counters are of 3cmc, but I run x3 Negates main. Which enables turn 4 removal + conter for PW's most of the time. Great on the curve.
I don't disagree with you at all. People are definitely afraid of Dovin Baan when he hits the board and he usually buys a turn or 3 while the opponent tries to deal with him. Outside of 'he replaces himself', though, I haven't gotten much use. I've never gotten his ultimate off and there are too many 'wide' strategies or vehicles that his uptick cannot keep him around. I'd love it for him to work, just haven't found the right situations...
I do think the top-16 decklist would be better with Anticipate. The pilot seemed to disagree in the comments on Channel Fireball, but I find I lose to flood/screw or poor draws as much as getting runover by a good deck. And that's playing 4 Anticipates to smooth my draw. Removal is great, if you need it. There's a lot of control online and playing 15 removal spells won't get the job done in a more open meta. If I was to face a league of 5 Mardu Vehicles decks, sure, but I've not been that 'lucky'.
For me, I like to play my walkers later. Turns 2-4 are set-up. I keep counters for walkers and will remove things that can get out of hand, but I usually won't worry about creatures if I know I can Fumigate and/or Gearhulk into a tempo shift. This is one of the reasons I don't care for Stasis Snare. I understand the benefits, but that 1 extra mana holds me back a turn. As was pointed out in the comments on CF, you really want to be able to remove creatures outside of combat. I like Dynavolt Tower, but I'm not sure it's enough for UW. UR and URG both use it better. I don't feel like white is the color you want for an optimized Tower build.
The last deck I took through a league is the second deck posted a few up from here - UW with Gideon. 2-3 to 4-1 finishes usually. Some of it is me, some of it is the deck.
Straight UW seems to do the best vs aggro strategies because you don't have to counter every creature. You can let them overplay into Fumigate. Vs planeswalker control or Tower control, it struggles and games become much more skill intensive. You have to hold counters for 'real' threats and have no way to deal with a resolved, non-creature threat short of bounce (or attacking the PW or Disallow the ability). [I'm not going to lie, casting Disallow onto a planeswalker ultimate feels great]. I've more recently been playing the UWb list I posted earlier. I'm still struggling with the mana. I really just want an answer to resolved, non-creature threats.
I don't want full blown 'Esper' because I think there are problems/limitations with several of the 'best' cards in that deck. I think a strong start includes Torrential Gearhulk (plus instants), Fumigate, and a finisher...
I used to play UW control a while back and I'd like to get back in. I want to know how necessary torrential gear hulk is. Its obviously great, but I can't afford them and was wondering if there are any replacements or substitutions you guys know of.
It would be difficult to say the least. Gearhulk represents a card advantage, tempo swing, and acts as a win condition - you get to play 2 spells and beat for 5 for 6 mana. If you want to go without Gearhulk, I don't know that you'd call it UW Control (at least in the 'traditional' sense), you'd probably want to look at UW Spirits or a UW Angel Control build.
I have started experimenting with UW control because I find the card Dampening Pulse to kill Saheeli because it makes the cat 0 power, effectively making the combo useless. It is also somewhat strong against Mardu Vehicles due to their aggro nature: a lot of their threat are power 3, and the pulse effectively cuts their power in 1/3. The pulse also makes it harder to crew vehicles. Thraben Inspector can't contribute to crew at all. To crew the popular Heart of Kiran the opponent needs at least 2 creatures.
Dovin Baan can't target Heart of Kiran or other Vehicles, but Aether Meltdown can. Meltdown can also make large threats from B/G almost trivial to block for our defenders.
What do I block with? Why, Shielded Aether Thief ofcourse. This guy blocks all the 3 power offenders from Mardu Veihecles, it blocks Heart of Kiran and Archangel Avacyn when Pulse is on the table, or basically anything with a Meltdown smacked on it (did I mention both Thief and Meltdown has flash?)
The deck is not dependant on creature removal like other control decks are, because so many creatures become useless or easy to handle in regular combat due to lower power.
The power reduction suite looks something like this:
From there, the brewer can go in any direction he wishes. He could even slap on a third color.
I decided for a half control- half midrange/goodstuff deck to begin testing. Because the enemy creatures will have less power, my goodstuff creatures will have an advantage on the battlefield. I decided for this suite of creatures:
This deck is probably far from optimized and I have only had time to tested it a little against 4c Saheeli and Mardu Vehicles. Against the versions I have tested against, I have had very high win rate so far.
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I know there has been several successful uw control decks in the current standard. I am too lazy to bring those up but thats ok, Id like to discuss my take on uw control which has been testing pretty well against both gb delirium and uw flash but for sure both matchups have alot of play to it. So if you really want to be successful in standard its always good to practice as much as you can with a deck that you like. Play as much as possible of course.
Anyway here is my updated list it has been through quite a few changes in the past month or so.
3 Immolating Glare
2 Blessed Alliance
3 Quarantine Field
4 Port Town
3 Meandering River
2 Blighted Cataract
6 Plains
4 Prairie Stream
6 Island
1 Descend upon the Sinful
1 Negate
4 Torrential Gearhulk
4 Void Shatter
2 Summary Dismissal
1 Fumigate
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
4 Glimmer of Genius
3 Anticipate
3 Stasis Snare
2 Revolutionary Rebuff
2 Gisela, the Broken Blade
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Negate
4 Spell Queller
2 Summary Dismissal
1 Fumigate
Card choices:
Linvala, the preserver: I tested two for a little while but the second copy almost always didn't do anything. So I like the one copy. This card is great at trumping those fast starts from any deck that is going aggressive. With the help of countermagic and removal it should definitely buy you enough time to slam down a linvala to win games that you are not suppose to win.
Immotaling glare/Stasis snare/blessed alliance: Instant speed removal is always great in a control deck that plays primary draw go so you can leverage your counters better and in the course of the game they can be more effective.
Quantine Field: This deck as you notice has a very tough time against resolved planeswalkers and so everytime i casted one of these the game became shortly in my favor. They are pretty good so i want three of them in the main.
Blighted Cateract: When your flooded on lands and when your playing at the top of your deck this is the card you definitely want in the late game.
Negate: A great two mana counters that is a hard ccounter to vehicles, aetherworks, opposing countermagic and planeswalkers is definitely great.
Descend upon the sinful: Great against the industrible cause so something like archangel avacyn doesn't blow you out. Ive also got a free 4/4 flyer out of it on occassion too which is very useful.
void shatter: A great three mana hard counter don't want to leave home without them.
Summary dismissal: Swiss army knight, counters planeswalker emblems, stops emrakrul and is a great four mana hard counter in the late game as well.
Fumigate: Still a solid and relevant sweeper, the gaining back some life here and there is also relevant.
Jace: Great at leveraging in a good amount of situations and of course gives this deck alot of digging power as well as some staying power.
Glimmer of genius: This is pretty much one of the cards that keeps this deck together and functioning and is the main reason why i like playing control right now.
Anticipate: Definitely makes this deck more consistent and digs for what you need.
Torrential Hulk: The absurd staple for all blue control decks in standard and i think its the best card in standard right now and I do not think its close imo.
Revolutionary rebuff: A soft counter but still pretty good at using your mana more efficiently in every stage of the game that matters.
Gisela: A pretty decent threat against uw flash and can put a clock on gb delilirium as well which is revelant. Lets you switch gears into more of a tempo control deck and goes well with spell quellers.
Sphinx: A decent finisher, i just like it since it can finish games sooner and can't be hit by any spot removal which is huge. I tend to board this card in against both uw flash and gb delirium.
Gideon: A great way to help you finish games on time and can pressure opposing planeswalkers backed up with countermagic and/or removal if necassary.
Spell queller: Can change the dynamic of how this deck can play. Great card to bring in against both of the most popular matchups can definitely make uw control much more aggressive as well.
Anyway, i don't think this deck is the best deck in the format but i definitely think this deck is pretty legit and its what i would for sure play at the scg invitational next week if i could go. I definitely think it has alot of game against alot if you play every turn correctly. I will definitely will try to provide more updates to this deck as the format progresses.
I think that with all the GB aggro decks that just plainly die to Fumigate, the deck can work pretty well. In my testing, Dovin Baan has been very good. Managed to go 4-1 in a Friendly league this weekend and failed the 5-0 just by a super close game.
Took out 1 anticipate and added 1 confirm suspicions as a more dig-deep card.
2 Dovin Baan
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Creatures
3 Torrential Gearhulk
Instants
3 Anticipate
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Confirm Suspicions
4 Disallow
4 Glimmer of Genius
3 Immolating Glare
3 Negate
2 Stasis Snare
Sorceries
4 Fumigate
Lands
9 Plains
7 Island
2 Evolving Wilds
4 Prairie Stream
4 Port Town
3 Dispel
1 Negate
2 Fragmentize
3 Authority of the Consuls
4 Horribly Awry
2 Sphinx of the Final Word
1. Negates are pretty good main.
2. Must find a replacement for 1 Blessed Alliance, probably another Immotaling Glare.
3. Could see cutting 1 Fumigate main to the sideboard, since I've been facing many U/X/x control and Marvel/ Saheeli combos. Could move 1 Sphin of the Final word into the main to have an out game 1 for the control mirrors.
4. Might still need a better 2 mana removal in the side for the more aggro matchups to get alive to turn 4 and 5.
5. Spell Queller could be on the side for the mirrors to pressure Pw that have been somewhat problematic at times (Saheeli most of the time)
6. Confirm Suspicious has been lucklaster. Will need a bit more testing.
3 Torrential Gearhulk
//Enchantment (5)
2 Quarantine Field
3 Stasis Snare
//Instant (22)
3 Anticipate
2 Blessed Alliance
4 Glimmer of Genius
4 Immolating Glare
2 Negate
3 Revolutionary Rebuff
4 Void Shatter
1 Linvala, the Preserver
//Planeswalker (2)
2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
//Sorcery (2)
2 Fumigate
//Land (25)
2 Aether Hub
8 Island
7 Plains
4 Port Town
4 Prairie Stream
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Blighted Cataract
1 Confirm Suspicions
2 Disallow
2 Dispel
1 Fumigate
1 Negate
1 Pacification Array
1 Quarantine Field
1 Skywhaler's Shot
1 Sphinx of Magosi
1 Stasis Snare
1 Torrential Gearhulk
I'm still undecided between Thing in the ice and Baral, Chief of compliance MD. But since I only have 2 Barals I decided I'd give it a go with TiTi at first, especially with the predominance of aggro lists. I don't run that much countermagic to abuse the looting on the Chief so that might be another thing to consider in case Baral turns out better.
4 Thing in the Ice
3 Gisela, The broken Blade
2 Bruna, the Fading Light
1 Linvala, the Preserver
Instant/Sorcery 23
4 Anticipate
4 Glimmer of Genius
4 Disallow
3 Baral's Expertise
3 Negate
3 Immolating glare
2 Fumigate
2 Dovin Baan
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Lands 24
4 Port Town
4 Prarie Stream
4 Aether Hub
8 Island
4 Plains
3 Fragmentize
3 Horribly Awry
4 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Fumigate
2 Sphinx of the Final Word
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Apparently our build are very different but the core is pretty much the same. I would love to test Baral's Expertise as it looks awesome for tempo swings and getting back into games that are getting out of control.
I totally agree on the removal, not much more you can ask for really. I was thinking on going Void Shatter too, but the utility from negating several abilites/effects have come in handy pretty often with Disallow.
Your build looks more of a Midrange deck than a Control dck but still looks nice. Same core as the UW control but no Torrential Gearhulks. I like the Angel pack as a win-con, but the Things in the Ice are really not fitting in there. Looks clucnky in paper, but what can you comments on this?
Yes, the main idea is to seal the game before you run out of gas by restricting your opponent a little bit, and then making big tempo plays rather than go for the super long games.
The idea behind Thing was to have something to slam on turn 2 and help me not get rushed down, not flip it immediately. The thing is great at making attacks akward early and getting removal out of the opponents hand, the B/G/Mardu vehicles lists I got to play against only ran 1 or 2 Fatal Push MD. So the Expertise into Gisela strat worked out most of the time. On that note, Gisela is an Angel Horror, so she doesn't get hit by the Thing transforming, and leads to some monstrous (pun intended) game swings, unanswered, you can swing for 11 on turn 6, a lot of stuff has to happen your way, but the potential is there.
Expertise into Dovin was also a nice play vs most lists, they didn't seem go THAT wide before you can pull it off, and the shrink on dovin made things easier, by the time they can even take a shot at him he's already about to ult, or has given me a lot of card advantage and lifegain it felt riddic. Had a Vehicles guy scoop twice to Expertise into Dovin followed up by a fumigate when he tried to rebuild. Gideon on the other hand didn't feel that great, sure you make a chump blocker every turn, but by the time I got a decent -4 or +1 I was already ahead by a mile. And generally slamming him on turn 4 only helped my life total be 5-6 points higher with no real impact on the game, there were a couple times where he was helpful turn 4, but I'd rather have had other options.
I might cut Gideon and Linvala for 2 Gearhulks tomorrow, between Glares, Fumigates and Expertises and the lifelink from Gis there wasn't really any time I could use her to full benefit, by the time I drew her the game was virtually over or I needed something to chump with, and I think Flashing a hulk into removal/draw would have been way stronger.
The B/G matchup isn't horrible, but It definetly needs improving, I didn't keep track but every game felt super close and If you let a Walking ballista Unchecked it will wreck your day. While negate was there mostly for protecting your stuff I might have to go with Ceremonious Rejection in the main just so I can deal with the Scrapheap Scrounger and the ballistas.
An awful matchup was B/R zombies, with no exile effects other than Horribly Awry in the sideboard and them having an answer in either harnessed lightning, Lightning axe or fatal push to my beaters their recursion slowly won most games. I think the only games I won were on the back of Brisela, voice of nightmares Simply cause he didn't have an answer for the trigger, or I had enough time to hit 9 lands and squeeze a negate in there, the one time I resolved a Linvala with life gain and a token It got EOT Axe'd into Fiery Temper on the token, into scrounger, Triple amalgam. Felt awful, lol.
Didn't play any CopyCat lists, but the matchup is probably horrendous if they go the control approach. Even after SB, it might be an uphill battle.
In retrospective, the deck played the way I anticipated, and I had a lot of fun, the mana base could use some tweaking, while I didn't run into any major problems, an oppening hand of 2 Streams and a Port town isn't the best. And having both fumigate and Expertise in hand felt super akward. Maybe the way to go with my idea is esper or U/B, but I'll keep testing as Azorius - Look at my avatar, for crying out loud!
I'll probably copy stokpile's list and work from there.
Cheers!
4 Torrential Gearhulk
Removal
2 Quarantine Field
2 Stasis Snare
1 Declaration in Stone
2 Fumigate
4 Immolating Glare
1 Blessed Alliance
Permission
1 Horribly Awry
2 Negate
2 Revolutionary Rebuff
4 Void Shatter
1 Confirm Suspicions
4 Glimmer of Genius
3 Anticipate
2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
Crispy Mana
2 Aether Hub
8 Island
7 Plains
4 Port Town
4 Prairie Stream
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Blighted Cataract
1 Decommission
2 Disallow
2 Dispel
1 Fumigate
1 Linvala, the Preserver
1 Negate
1 Skywhaler's Shot
1 Sphinx of Magosi
2 Stasis Snare
Thoughts on the weird stuff
I decided to put in the dec in stone for an additional proactive removal spell not named stasis snare. I wanted another cmc 2 piece of interaction and the exile effect is obviously relevant. Swapped the linvala for the 4th hulk because I was having a lot of trouble winning in the control mirror, especially with a lack of manlands. Depending on how things shook out I could be miles ahead but actually be out of ways to end the game due to the obscene amounts of answers they could have. Against uwr for example their harnessed lightning turns into terminate in the late game so there just aren't enough counters to protect a 6 mana sorcery. I'd still like to run a linvala main, but there's just no room right now that I can see.
Also for this reason I moved a confirm suspicions into the main because I always felt like I needed just one extra draw spell, even against vehicles. Nearly every lost to beat down decks was from me drawing 4 lands in a row midgame when I stabilized while they drew action so having an extra sink is necessary. I chose confirm because it at least does something aside from draw cards and is awesome in control mirrors. I considered a third jace because he is so damned powerful, but I didn't want another expensive sorcery. Also the third rebuff was changed to a horribly awry which has been fine. It had to be another cmc 2 spell but it was also a way to stop a felidar guardian and it interacts with spellqueller. Being unable to interact with creatures outside of combat means some concessions must be made for those sorts of value creatures.
Over in the side I put in a sphinx of magosi (standard legal from the welcome decks) because I needed another win con for BGstuff.dec and it had to have flying. Why? Because when they never attack with hissing quagmire it gets hard to actually kill your opponent. Yeah, that's really awkward. It also can draw you some cards and final word sphinx is also a consideration, but I'd never want to bring it in against them and vs control it's too hard to tap that much mana main phase in the first place and not die. Lastly the Sky shot is basically to kill trackers and the like outside of combat. Again, having to make some odd choices in removal when you're restricted to the attack step.
From there, I decided to try UW. I started with this list
4 Port Town
4 Prairie Stream
10 Island
3 Plains
3 Blessed Alliance
3 Immolating Glare
4 Anticipate
2 Negate
2 Horribly Awry
4 Disallow
2 Dynavolt Tower
4 Glimmer of Genius
1 Leave in the Dust
1 Dovin Baan
2 Fumigate
2 Confirm Suspicions
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
4 Torrential Gearhulk
It played out pretty well. The synergy of Dynavolt Tower and all the instants combined with the white removal felt a little nicer than the red splash version. Fumigate is strong enough to be worth it as a Sorcery and Dovin Baan and Jace, Unraveler of Secrets both work to give you time to draw into the long game where this deck wins with inevitability. The issue was that Dynavolt Tower never seemed 'right'. It was good, no doubt, but it often felt underpowered. It's slow, and doesn't hit several problem creatures. It gives a 'sometimes' answer to a planeswalker, but often took two turns (and several spells) to finish one off. So I started looking at just replacing it with a walker of my own and have been playing this...
4 Port Town
4 Prairie Stream
10 Island
3 Plains
3 Blessed Alliance
3 Immolating Glare
4 Anticipate
2 Negate
2 Void Shatter
4 Disallow
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Glimmer of Genius
1 Leave in the Dust
1 Dovin Baan
2 Fumigate
2 Confirm Suspicions
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
4 Torrential Gearhulk
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Negate
3 Thing in the Ice
1 Void Shatter
2 Decommission
3 Stasis Snare
1 Fumigate
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
It plays a little better. Games definitely close out faster once you take control, but it's still miserable not being able to do anything against a Chandra as she ticks up...
The options I'm looking at right now are Imprisoned in the Moon and Anguished Unmaking with Anguished Unmaking looking like the best alternative. After reading quite a few of the things Shaheen Soorani, I like the idea of Esper Control, but I'm not sure that the commitment to black is as necessary as it looks. The white removal is very good and very easy on the mana. If white (or blue) could deal with walkers more efficiently, there would be no reason to look to black. With black, though, we get a lot of efficient ways to deal with them. Here's what I'm looking at now...
2 Immolating Glare
4 Anticipate
2 Negate
3 Disallow
3 Void Shatter
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Glimmer of Genius
2 Fumigate
2 Confirm Suspicions
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
4 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
4 Plains
8 Island
4 Aether Hub
4 Prairie Stream
4 Sunken Hollow
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Negate
3 Thing in the Ice
3 Decommission
3 Transgress the Mind
1 Fumigate
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
Any ideas or thoughts?
Most of the better players I've played recently play around Alliance, too. Having Gideon throw out a couple soldiers before they attack isn't hard.
Quarantine Field looks great on paper, but, in my experience, it's just too slow. 4 mana to remove 1 card and 6 mana to remove 2 provides a huge opportunity, especially when you have to tap out on your turn. It can work, but you have to have a lot of things already going your way and you need to be able to either set it up or follow it up effectively. Personally, I tend to like to have more open lines of play as opposed to being forced into certain paths.
I haven't been able to play on MTGO in any leagues, but I went 3-1 on my FNM, only barely lost 2-1 to Jund Energy Aggro, him with the nut draws both times and timely top decks.
Saw this on Channel Fireball, a guys top 16 on a classic. http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/deck-of-the-day-uw-cheons-er-control/
2 x Blighted Cataract
2 x Meandering River
4 x Port Town
4 x Prairie Stream
7 x Island
8 x Plains
4 x Torrential Gearhulk
3 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1 x Quarantine Field
4 x Blessed Alliance
4 x Disallow
4 x Glimmer of Genius
4 x Immolating Glare
2 x Negate
3 x Fumigate
3 x Stasis Snare
2 x Dynavolt Tower
1 x Quarantine Field
2 x Decommission
3 x Gideon's Reproach
2 x Negate
2 x Overwhelming Denial
1 x Fumigate
2 x Dispel
Not completely sold on his build but 98% as I'm playing it actually. The 4th Torrential Gearhulk seems clunky.
2 x Blighted Cataract seems OK, but I would only play x1. X3 Gideons is fine but I would rather play 1 Dovin.
Actually, I recently added 1 Quarantine Field to the main, and it has been great for me. The flexibility it gives you as a 1-of is perfect. Late game is awesome and can sometimes win you the game on the spot. Early game is not great of course, but now I don't see the deck playing without one at least.
This build is heavily set up for aggro and I'm not convinced it needs to be that heavily slanted to do well against Mardu and B/G. I've been playing 8 maindeck removal spells online and have been having a fine time. Blessed Alliance is the weakest, in my opinion, as it's the easiest to play around and the most expected. At 15 removal spells, I feel like you are not going to be recurring much besides removal and, as you take control, I would think you would like more counters to shift from reactive to proactive. That could just be the way I play, though. I also find that recurring creature removal just seems sub-optimal. If you flash in Gearhulk, he can take down most creatures on his own. Casting Glare or Alliance from the graveyard just never seems like the best play... Great as an option, but it's usually low on the wishlist...
I couldn't make Dovin Baan work. I want him to be relevant, but he just doesn't turn out to be as good as you want.
I may try a couple test games just to see how it plays, but I'm not sold on needing that much removal. I'd prefer something else or a better answer to walkers.
True, Blessed is in my opinion only needed as a 1-of max 2 in the main. I would rather play x2 Anticipates there. Again, Dovin is in my list only because I've found that the life gain is relevant to sometimes just live that extra turn and stabilize, plus the card. It a great top deck on a controlled board and late game is a dig-deeper card. The ultimate is a real thing and i've won 1 or 2 games with it but not exactly the best route to take.
Also , the way I play against walkers or my sequences go like this. Removal turn 2 and 3, try an don't tap out for the PW to resolve and make them play slowish or waste mana, if things are goin my way, I resolve a Gideon/Dovin turn 4-5 and then stabilize with a Fumigate and try and run away with the game with my PW's and defend them. But its hard, since most of our Counters are of 3cmc, but I run x3 Negates main. Which enables turn 4 removal + conter for PW's most of the time. Great on the curve.
I do think the top-16 decklist would be better with Anticipate. The pilot seemed to disagree in the comments on Channel Fireball, but I find I lose to flood/screw or poor draws as much as getting runover by a good deck. And that's playing 4 Anticipates to smooth my draw. Removal is great, if you need it. There's a lot of control online and playing 15 removal spells won't get the job done in a more open meta. If I was to face a league of 5 Mardu Vehicles decks, sure, but I've not been that 'lucky'.
For me, I like to play my walkers later. Turns 2-4 are set-up. I keep counters for walkers and will remove things that can get out of hand, but I usually won't worry about creatures if I know I can Fumigate and/or Gearhulk into a tempo shift. This is one of the reasons I don't care for Stasis Snare. I understand the benefits, but that 1 extra mana holds me back a turn. As was pointed out in the comments on CF, you really want to be able to remove creatures outside of combat. I like Dynavolt Tower, but I'm not sure it's enough for UW. UR and URG both use it better. I don't feel like white is the color you want for an optimized Tower build.
what is your current build? Have you been playing competitive leagues? I haven't played in 2 weeks so I can't really report on those at the moment.
Straight UW seems to do the best vs aggro strategies because you don't have to counter every creature. You can let them overplay into Fumigate. Vs planeswalker control or Tower control, it struggles and games become much more skill intensive. You have to hold counters for 'real' threats and have no way to deal with a resolved, non-creature threat short of bounce (or attacking the PW or Disallow the ability). [I'm not going to lie, casting Disallow onto a planeswalker ultimate feels great]. I've more recently been playing the UWb list I posted earlier. I'm still struggling with the mana. I really just want an answer to resolved, non-creature threats.
I don't want full blown 'Esper' because I think there are problems/limitations with several of the 'best' cards in that deck. I think a strong start includes Torrential Gearhulk (plus instants), Fumigate, and a finisher...
I have started experimenting with UW control because I find the card Dampening Pulse to kill Saheeli because it makes the cat 0 power, effectively making the combo useless. It is also somewhat strong against Mardu Vehicles due to their aggro nature: a lot of their threat are power 3, and the pulse effectively cuts their power in 1/3. The pulse also makes it harder to crew vehicles. Thraben Inspector can't contribute to crew at all. To crew the popular Heart of Kiran the opponent needs at least 2 creatures.
To build on this strategy, I include a number of Dovin Baan which completely shuts down the enemy Scrapheap Scrounger or Toolcraft Exemplar. Paired with a Pulse, Dovin can even shut down an Archangel Avacyn.
Dovin Baan can't target Heart of Kiran or other Vehicles, but Aether Meltdown can. Meltdown can also make large threats from B/G almost trivial to block for our defenders.
What do I block with? Why, Shielded Aether Thief ofcourse. This guy blocks all the 3 power offenders from Mardu Veihecles, it blocks Heart of Kiran and Archangel Avacyn when Pulse is on the table, or basically anything with a Meltdown smacked on it (did I mention both Thief and Meltdown has flash?)
The deck is not dependant on creature removal like other control decks are, because so many creatures become useless or easy to handle in regular combat due to lower power.
The power reduction suite looks something like this:
From there, the brewer can go in any direction he wishes. He could even slap on a third color.
I decided for a half control- half midrange/goodstuff deck to begin testing. Because the enemy creatures will have less power, my goodstuff creatures will have an advantage on the battlefield. I decided for this suite of creatures:
Continuing the flash theme, along with the Thraben Inspector/Aethersphere Harvester combination suite.
To support the Gearhulk, I decided to go for these instants:
The mana base becomes very smooth with so many basic lands. The only issue is that Thraben Inspector can't be always cast on turn 1.
This deck is probably far from optimized and I have only had time to tested it a little against 4c Saheeli and Mardu Vehicles. Against the versions I have tested against, I have had very high win rate so far.