Well he top 8'ed in New Mexico with a Rg Dryard Grow list that was odd and unpolished in my opinion doing things like randomly not having a full slots of Karplusan Forest or Mogg Fanatic, rocking a singleton Changeling Berserker and Tarfire then strangely running 25 lands. I could see how Lash Out might not seem as good I suppose, and I know that with 25 lands that's why he's not hitting with Clash often at all.
Which was mostly due to not being able to find any of the cards I needed on time (because, of course, I was running 3 Mogg Fanatic and 25 lands intentionally; that was my super secret tech), as I originally planned on playing a different list; even with separate testing with the actually intended list, with a range of 18-20 lands, and it still didn't do it for me. And the fact that it was still fast enough to win against other, polished decks could say something about the concept in itself; I'd have much rather had cards that directly contributed to my clock rather than ones that only disrupted my opponents. And even then...
Read the engine part? That should probably answer your question. Not to mention, you play one card down for a good portion of the game, and you entirely miss your turn one. There's definitely an argument for War-Marshal, but there were many, many other cards that I would have on turn 2. The two are useful, but...
Yeah, I read the engine part, but I don't see that as an argument against mogg war marshal or gargadon. I mean, what would you play in its place that would perform better against recurring removal?
Also, war marshal is good against elves and goblins.
Which was mostly due to not being able to find any of the cards I needed on time, as I originally planned on playing a different list; even with separate testing with the actually intended list, with a range of 18-20 lands, and it still didn't do it for me. And the fact that it was still fast enough to win against other, polished decks could say something about the concept in itself; I'd have much rather had cards that directly contributed to my clock rather than ones that only disrupted my opponents. And even then...
It might say something if States was a polished tourney, however often it's not given there's not in most cases a high concentration of skilled players who are in one state and playing at States if there are.
That statement does like many you make show something about your understanding of the game. Speed is not the most important factor, especially not in standard, and interacting with the board position is more important. Pressure is part of winning but having the fastest clock is often only most important when you're talking about goldfish games. There is seems great because their no one on the other end of the table, but in a game you have to interact with the situations presented, and racing them is rarely the best of options.
The thing is... I do. My build is probably different than yours, as I cut the Gargodons, and then the War-Marshals, to make the Mannequin matchup a bit easier as well as to be able to play around the massive amounts of removal in the format in general.
No Gargadon and no mogg war marshall. That can't be right. I mean how do you ever beat another red deck? Like it actually seems impossible to win the red deck or even the the aggro mirror against any aggressive deck. Gargadon and War Marshall are integral parts to the deck. It's like cutting the evoke creatures from Mannequin. As has been said, this hurts your credibility.
Which also let me lower my land count and increase my threat density, etc... Essentially trading consistency for raw power. And, most of the time, I've found that when I've had two mana unoccupied, I'd rather either play multiple spells at once, or just start throwing burn at the opponent's face. Most of my physical damage takes place between turns 1 and 3, as it should, which means that by the time control starts playing creatures, I would rather just be playing burn spells to win the game, and I would rather the Lash Out to be an actual burn spell, or that I could achieve the same result for less mana through a Tarfire, or something similar. That is to say, if I didn't have something better to do with my 2 mana; around the time I would Lash Out, I could also play the 'Goyf, which is, I'm sure that you would agree, a much preferable alternative in any matchup that Lash Out is actually relevant in.
Maybe I'm not understanding you here, but what you're saying doesn't make that much sense. You advise against plaing lash out becaue tarmogoyf also costs two mana? I mean I'd probably play a goyf before a lash out, but can't I just kill a creature and potentially dome for 3 next turn?
The fact that it only was useful when a creature was on the board kind of put it off for me
If at any point elves or aggro rock or whatever you're playing against doesn't have a creature in play, than I think you are going to win that game anyway. When they do play a creature, you'll have an answer for it.
especially since most everything I wanted to kill ended up below or above it. I will admit that I haven't tested the Elves matchup extensively, so I can't say for sure how strong the card is there, but for every single other matchup I would have always rather have had a Shock (Dead//Gone, Tarfire, whatever) to be able to play another spell after the removal to take advantage of it, or a straight up burn spell. The only games where I ever would have rather had a Lash Out were more or less just Elves and Changeling Zoo, and neither of those is excessively popular at the moment;
Elves isn't popular? Really? I mean, I thought it was easily the mostp popular deck. It was very popualr at states and lead the pack in terms of T8s and wins. Maybe you live in bizzaro world where changeling zoo is as popular as elves, but in most places that probably isn't the case.
Edit: Wow; pros like Lash Out. Yay... I guess it's time to abandon all of my free will and opinions, because, holy crap, pros like Lash Out. Because, it's not as good as or worse than a Shock in almost every matchup that you've cited besides Elves, which, like I've said above, is a horrible matchup for my variant, and, for the time being, I'm ignoring. Similarly, this is almost exactly a carbon copy of every single removal vs. business card argument; I really don't think that this is really going to end up going anywhere fast. Similarly, for the first example... in most aggro matchups, Shock does almost whatever you want Lash Out to do, only better; it basically comes down to the universal Scry 1 against the halved mana cost. I know which one I choose.
You shouldn't abandon your free will because pros like something, but it's usually a good indicator of what's good and what isn't. In addition to Elves I would rather have lash out against aggro rock, various ug tempo decks, well pretty any deck that plays garruk.
I'm not going to lie, even a better build of your states deck is far inferior to the Rg get in there with gargadon.
Umm, apparently you guys don't know, but Gargadon and Mogg War Marshall are good, but there are real reasons to cut them. From a strict aggro view, those cards are actually really ineffecient. Its why those cards don't come up in pure aggro decks, they come up in aggro decks with midgame play. The deck he was shooting for, was classic Sligh. The deck that in this environment would rape blink, control, and most midrange decks. Elves, is not a midrange deck. Elves is an aggro deck with Garruk. + sideboard discard. His deck would get slaughtered by elves unless he shocks out his mana elves and his opponent sticks with 2-3 mana the whole game, or he gets enough burn to kill him flat out. Very hard either way. Its no way near as hard if played against Kithkin which is filled with 2/2s that are slower. Purity also screws his matchup against control a bit.
So what do we get? a deck that loses 40/60 against too much White control with Purity or Martyr of Sands, 30/70 against an elf deck, and 50/50 against Kithkin, or other similar decks to him. Those style of decks if very popular, will fill up 40% of the field. The rest of the decks, he has at least a 60/40 against all of them, sometimes the 70/30. Most decks will be mid-range aggro, and if he was playing a really fast sligh variant, he would have a 60-40 against it.
In those cases, everything that Lhefriel_Medies is right. Which, if you looked at the % of decks played at states, it proves that he is right. Pros all say Lash Out is good because of its advantage against aggro and midrange which most decks were there, but you still wouldn't play it in sligh, because you can't just turn around and burn the head. And the decks that would play it also play it because they need better matchups against those decks. So, the question is: Play the deck with better matchups in the first place, or play cards that make the matchup better for a deck. I'd rather choose the first option, because at least punish every play mistake more, and less likely to make one yourself. Maybe not at pro tour lvl, but even then, theres real reasons to choose it still.
Umm, apparently you guys don't know, but Gargadon and Mogg War Marshall are good, but there are real reasons to cut them. From a strict aggro view, those cards are actually really ineffecient. Its why those cards don't come up in pure aggro decks, they come up in aggro decks with midgame play. The deck he was shooting for, was classic Sligh. The deck that in this environment would rape blink, control, and most midrange decks. Elves, is not a midrange deck. Elves is an aggro deck with Garruk. + sideboard discard. His deck would get slaughtered by elves unless he shocks out his mana elves and his opponent sticks with 2-3 mana the whole game, or he gets enough burn to kill him flat out. Very hard either way. Its no way near as hard if played against Kithkin which is filled with 2/2s that are slower. Purity also screws his matchup against control a bit.
So what do we get? a deck that loses 40/60 against too much White control with Purity or Martyr of Sands, 30/70 against an elf deck, and 50/50 against Kithkin, or other similar decks to him. Those style of decks if very popular, will fill up 40% of the field. The rest of the decks, he has at least a 60/40 against all of them, sometimes the 70/30. Most decks will be mid-range aggro, and if he was playing a really fast sligh variant, he would have a 60-40 against it.
Look at me, I can make up arbitrary numbers! I feel the Rg vs Elves match-up is 68/32 in favor of the Rg deck. On the other hand teachings is as igh as 69/31! Mannequin is aeround 5/5 but that's fine. Seriously though, who cares. My deck has far better match-ups against other aggro decks because of gargadon and mogg war marshall. My deck is already probably better against teachings and mid-range than lfriel's is. Pretty much the only match-up he could be advantaged in is Blink. So you have the red deck without the good cards which is stronger vs blink and the red deck with the good cards which is stronger vs everything else. Ding!
In those cases, everything that Lhefriel_Medies is right. Which, if you looked at the % of decks played at states, it proves that he is right. Pros all say Lash Out is good because of its advantage against aggro and midrange which most decks were there, but you still wouldn't play it in sligh, because you can't just turn around and burn the head. And the decks that would play it also play it because they need better matchups against those decks. So, the question is: Play the deck with better matchups in the first place, or play cards that make the matchup better for a deck. I'd rather choose the first option, because at least punish every play mistake more, and less likely to make one yourself. Maybe not at pro tour lvl, but even then, theres real reasons to choose it still.
What? What % of decks played at states, what scenarios prove he is right? It seems like you're muttering arbitrary thoughts that have no basis what so ever. What are you even arguing for? The deck with better match-ups in the first place is my deck, and the deck that runs cards that make match-ups better is also my deck. Pro-Tour level? I'm confused.
Umm, apparently you guys don't know, but Gargadon and Mogg War Marshall are good, but there are real reasons to cut them. From a strict aggro view, those cards are actually really ineffecient. Its why those cards don't come up in pure aggro decks, they come up in aggro decks with midgame play. The deck he was shooting for, was classic Sligh. The deck that in this environment would rape blink, control, and most midrange decks. Elves, is not a midrange deck. Elves is an aggro deck with Garruk. + sideboard discard. His deck would get slaughtered by elves unless he shocks out his mana elves and his opponent sticks with 2-3 mana the whole game, or he gets enough burn to kill him flat out. Very hard either way. Its no way near as hard if played against Kithkin which is filled with 2/2s that are slower. Purity also screws his matchup against control a bit.
So what do we get? a deck that loses 40/60 against too much White control with Purity or Martyr of Sands, 30/70 against an elf deck, and 50/50 against Kithkin, or other similar decks to him. Those style of decks if very popular, will fill up 40% of the field. The rest of the decks, he has at least a 60/40 against all of them, sometimes the 70/30. Most decks will be mid-range aggro, and if he was playing a really fast sligh variant, he would have a 60-40 against it.
In those cases, everything that Lhefriel_Medies is right. Which, if you looked at the % of decks played at states, it proves that he is right. Pros all say Lash Out is good because of its advantage against aggro and midrange which most decks were there, but you still wouldn't play it in sligh, because you can't just turn around and burn the head. And the decks that would play it also play it because they need better matchups against those decks. So, the question is: Play the deck with better matchups in the first place, or play cards that make the matchup better for a deck. I'd rather choose the first option, because at least punish every play mistake more, and less likely to make one yourself. Maybe not at pro tour lvl, but even then, theres real reasons to choose it still.
I'm not going to bother with the rest, SR said it well enough, but you realize that classic Sligh the list played by Paul Sligh in 1996 in Atlanta that lost to Nerco in the finals, at PTQ when the format required you to 5 cards from every legal expansion was not an all out aggro deck, it was actually a deck that set out to control the board. The deck you're thinking of was Price's take on it from 1998 Tempest era, not the classic.
Also all decks learned a lesson from Sligh, that was about mana curve. The Magic competitive magic we play today uses that very idea still gained from Paul and Jay's (Jay Schneider who actually is credited with designing the deck) deck.
Umm, apparently you guys don't know, but Gargadon and Mogg War Marshall are good, but there are real reasons to cut them. From a strict aggro view, those cards are actually really ineffecient. Its why those cards don't come up in pure aggro decks, they come up in aggro decks with midgame play. The deck he was shooting for, was classic Sligh. The deck that in this environment would rape blink, control, and most midrange decks. Elves, is not a midrange deck. Elves is an aggro deck with Garruk. + sideboard discard. His deck would get slaughtered by elves unless he shocks out his mana elves and his opponent sticks with 2-3 mana the whole game, or he gets enough burn to kill him flat out. Very hard either way. Its no way near as hard if played against Kithkin which is filled with 2/2s that are slower. Purity also screws his matchup against control a bit.
So what do we get? a deck that loses 40/60 against too much White control with Purity or Martyr of Sands, 30/70 against an elf deck, and 50/50 against Kithkin, or other similar decks to him. Those style of decks if very popular, will fill up 40% of the field. The rest of the decks, he has at least a 60/40 against all of them, sometimes the 70/30. Most decks will be mid-range aggro, and if he was playing a really fast sligh variant, he would have a 60-40 against it.
In those cases, everything that Lhefriel_Medies is right. Which, if you looked at the % of decks played at states, it proves that he is right. Pros all say Lash Out is good because of its advantage against aggro and midrange which most decks were there, but you still wouldn't play it in sligh, because you can't just turn around and burn the head. And the decks that would play it also play it because they need better matchups against those decks. So, the question is: Play the deck with better matchups in the first place, or play cards that make the matchup better for a deck. I'd rather choose the first option, because at least punish every play mistake more, and less likely to make one yourself. Maybe not at pro tour lvl, but even then, theres real reasons to choose it still.
Ummm, No?
Lash Out is amazing in Sligh. It is a Sligh card. It clears blockers and sometimes goes to the dome. Sligh wins with creatures. Lash Out supplements that strategy. It is all kinds of good.
How in God's name is Gargadon+War Marshal inefficient? It is the best aggro combo in Type 2. Hands down. It beats other aggro decks and acts as an improved Red Raise the Alarm. I vehemently disagree with you. Gargadon+War Marshal is aggro gold.
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115 out of 200 of the decks were non-aggro non-white control. That is only have of states results in, but thats over 50% of the field where a R/G sligh deck would be good. A good majority of those aggro decks would be more midgame based as well giving this deck a better shot then it had before.
Additionally, your R/G deck might be better against elves, but you get that at the loss of control and blink matchups. Maybe even goblin matchups, depends on how the goblin deck is built.
SRDude, I don't make up randomly #'s, but your deck might have overall higher %'s for any tournament, but that is not how you win tournaments relyably. You win tournaments a lot more often by focusing on metagame. It isn't just entire tournament metagame, its top 8 metagame based on entire tournament metagame. In an aggro oriented environment, which your R/G deck version would thrive in, it would suddenly get average 50/50 matchups in top 8. A R/G sligh deck, would average 60/40 matchups in top 8 because of the other decks that thrive in an aggro oriented environment, meaning blink decks, your R/G version, and B/U control varients. You might get 1 aggro or 1 white based control with martyrs and/or purity. In that kind of top 8, you get the advantage against the aggro and other major creature based decks, but then lose it against the control decks.
This is directly related to pro level games, because in those cases people will play the decks that can get them to top 8 while having still favorable matchups, but at the same time everyone starts thinking that and then the deck that used to be unable to get to top 8 statistically, suddenly surges in power. People might realize this and it becomes weak again.
Also, I was using a bit loose termonology, I don't mean sligh, I mean Red's equivilent of Suicide Black, which is usually sligh. And yes, sligh was about the curve, but I was thinking more so of the one with Tempest in the mix as well. Fast, deadly, with burn.
Finally, Gargadon and Mogg War Marshal are ineffecient not because of their eventual damage output, but because of their immediate costs for little effect. In a deck that plays its creatures, gets as much damage as quickly as possible, and then burns them out for the rest of it, needs immediate speed. Not staying power. They already have late game wins by extra burn with higher early game damage instead of playing those cards, dealing less early on, and finishing more later. I'm not saying they aren't good cards, but they aren't staples for every red aggro deck.
No Gargadon and no mogg war marshall. That can't be right. I mean how do you ever beat another red deck? Like it actually seems impossible to win the red deck or even the the aggro mirror against any aggressive deck. Gargadon and War Marshall are integral parts to the deck. It's like cutting the evoke creatures from Mannequin. As has been said, this hurts your credibility.
The thing is... I was 90% sure that I wouldn't play the mirror match before, and against every other deck, the inevitability that Gargodon presented wasn't nearly as valuable as the ability to play quickly and interactively, which, as Babbler said, is extremely valuable. I had 4 copies in the board in case I did play matchups that it would be useful in, and I barely ever saw the reason why the War-Marshal was run anyways, besides its obvious synergy with the Gargodon, and I definitely did not want to try to cram another four copies into my board. As neither card really directly contributes to my clock, as mrofni stated, both are, strictly speaking, inefficient due to the fact that their immediate impact on the game is comparatively minimal; this is probably another reason why I value my sideboard slots much more than you do, as I chose to only fall back on the midgame if I absolutely had to. Martyrs 2-4 as well as a set of Gargodons were all there, which meant that I was looking a lot more into the cards that I put in there.
Maybe I'm not understanding you here, but what you're saying doesn't make that much sense. You advise against plaing lash out becaue tarmogoyf also costs two mana? I mean I'd probably play a goyf before a lash out, but can't I just kill a creature and potentially dome for 3 next turn?
Being able to hit back to back two drops in addition to dealing with whatever problem creature you happen to run into on turns 2 and 3 is fairly valuable; much more so than being able to deal with their creature and fall back on a one drop. Similarly, even on turn four, assuming that you managed to hit every single land drop, it's much stronger to be able to answer their creature and slam an Inner-Flame Acolyte to take advantage of the gap than to just answer their creature and play the two drop you should have hit the turn before. Removal for one mana has an extremely distinct edge over that for two when speed is of the essence. Clearer now?
If at any point elves or aggro rock or whatever you're playing against doesn't have a creature in play, than I think you are going to win that game anyway. When they do play a creature, you'll have an answer for it.
Ie. Shock (or Dead//Gone, or Tarfire, or... you get the idea), which will very likely do the same thing for half as much mana in most situations.
Elves isn't popular? Really? I mean, I thought it was easily the mostp popular deck. It was very popualr at states and lead the pack in terms of T8s and wins. Maybe you live in bizzaro world where changeling zoo is as popular as elves, but in most places that probably isn't the case.
In my area, I think a grand total of two people even bothered to consider it a viable deck, let alone find or buy the cards to run it. On the other hand, I did expect a good bit of midrange and middling amounts of Teachings control, with Pickles, hence the Dryads for staying power, as well as a few lists of Shriekmaw based control, although I didn't expect anyone to run the straight up snow Mannequin list that's in the spotlight now. Very likely a good bit of WW Kithkin, as a budget choice, and Blink as well, being one of the premier tempo decks of the format. Notice an alignment between the decks that mrofni said that a faster build of the deck had an advantage against and the decks I expected? While, yes, I would have MD'd Martyrs with a bit more of a slant towards board removal if I had expect a lot of Elves, that's the only real deck in which Lash Out has an edge over a Shock variant, due to the Vanquisher.
You shouldn't abandon your free will because pros like something, but it's usually a good indicator of what's good and what isn't. In addition to Elves I would rather have lash out against aggro rock, various ug tempo decks, well pretty any deck that plays garruk.
Aggro Rock isn't a horrible matchup, depending on how much pressure you can apply before they set up. UG tempo is a fairly strong matchup, as oftentimes your speed easily outpaces whatever development they can put out before you deal enough damage to simply be able to wind down. Garruk decks are fairly hard, but I'd give a 60% or so chance of a win there, preboard- Pithing Needles and Martyrs for the Trolls make life somewhat easier, and here's, depending on how much I saw of the deck, where the Gargodons actually come in. The matchup's definitely not bad, even if it isn't amazing.
Coincidentally... This is where I would quote everything mrofni said for truth, for his generally intelligent posting in regards to this. Many, many thanks for actually bothering to read and comprehend my posts.
For red, Rift Bolt is my fave- fantastic damage/cost ratio, and the slowness is never really relevant most of the time. Lash Out is better than people give it credit for.
The thing is... I was 90% sure that I wouldn't play the mirror match before, and against every other deck, the inevitability that Gargodon presented wasn't nearly as valuable as the ability to play quickly and interactively, which, as Babbler said, is extremely valuable. I had 4 copies in the board in case I did play matchups that it would be useful in, and I barely ever saw the reason why the War-Marshal was run anyways, besides its obvious synergy with the Gargodon, and I definitely did not want to try to cram another four copies into my board. As neither card really directly contributes to my clock, as mrofni stated, both are, strictly speaking, inefficient due to the fact that their immediate impact on the game is comparatively minimal; this is probably another reason why I value my sideboard slots much more than you do, as I chose to only fall back on the midgame if I absolutely had to. Martyrs 2-4 as well as a set of Gargodons were all there, which meant that I was looking a lot more into the cards that I put in there.
Have you ever played magic? I don't mean to sound harsh (that's a lie, I want to drive the point home) but suspending gargadon on turn 1 is good in every single match-up except decks with DI bounce and instant speed removal like mannequin. It's solid vs teachings and it decides the game in aggro mirrors. You're lack of understanding about mogg war marhsall shows you've never played an aggro mirror nor have had god/damn cast against you. You'll have plenty of room for the 4 awesome lash out once you add the gargadons and mogg war marshalls back into the deck.
Being able to hit back to back two drops in addition to dealing with whatever problem creature you happen to run into on turns 2 and 3 is fairly valuable; much more so than being able to deal with their creature and fall back on a one drop. Similarly, even on turn four, assuming that you managed to hit every single land drop, it's much stronger to be able to answer their creature and slam an Inner-Flame Acolyte to take advantage of the gap than to just answer their creature and play the two drop you should have hit the turn before. Removal for one mana has an extremely distinct edge over that for two when speed is of the essence. Clearer now?
Yes, it's crystal clear to me that you don't want to be rational. You kind of just made the same point again. I do understand what you're saying. You want the game to progress like the following:
With Lash out the situation looks sort of like this
Turn 1: Creature
Turn 2: Creature, attack
Turn 3: Lash Out on their creature, attack, potentially play a 1 drop.
Scenario 2 deals as much, though potentially more damage than scenario 1, and it also allowsy ou to kill a bigger creature.
The problem with your argument is that not only is speed not "of the essence" you don't really gain any speed at all. Accolyte isn't so hot. Thunderblade Charge is better.
Ie. Shock (or Dead//Gone, or Tarfire, or... you get the idea), which will very likely do the same thing for half as much mana in most situations.
As I just said, the whole "half as much mana" isn't that important on turn 2 and doesn't matter at all as th game progresses. Killing something bigger and potentially dealing damage > Negligent amount of "speed".
In my area, I think a grand total of two people even bothered to consider Elves a viable deck, let alone find or buy the cards to run it.
The fact that the players in Bizarro world (new Mexico? Same difference?) aren't that good shouldn't be a mark against my argument. It's not really an argument though. It's more like me helping you become a better deck developer.
On the other hand, I did expect a good bit of midrange and middling amounts of Teachings control, with Pickles, hence the Dryads for staying power, as well as a few lists of Shriekmaw based control, although I didn't expect anyone to run the straight up snow Mannequin list that's in the spotlight now. Very likely a good bit of WW Kithkin, as a budget choice, and Blink as well, being one of the premier tempo decks of the format. Notice an alignment between the decks that mrofni said that a faster build of the deck had an advantage against and the decks I expected? While, yes, I would have MD'd Martyrs with a bit more of a slant towards board removal if I had expect a lot of Elves, that's the only real deck in which Lash Out has an edge over a Shock variant, due to the Vanquisher.
Teachings is a match-up where I'd rather have gargadon and mogg war marshall than a bad quirion dryad. Dryad isn't that threatening and if it is than it just gives them a good target for their removal (most layers are reluctant to kill a war marshall. They'd rather get beaten down by it). I haven't tested the Rg vs Pickles match-up, but I'd imagine that it's favorable for Rg regardless of quirion dryad. Blink is anotherm atch-up that's favorable for Rg with or without the gargs. You basically become a dog vs Elves, the mirror, aggro rock, and possibly kithkin just os you can make 2 good match-ups a little bit better. Surely you see the problem in this.
Aggro Rock isn't a horrible matchup, depending on how much pressure you can apply before they set up. UG tempo is a fairly strong matchup, as oftentimes your speed easily outpaces whatever development they can put out before you deal enough damage to simply be able to wind down. Garruk decks are fairly hard, but I'd give a 60% or so chance of a win there, preboard- Pithing Needles and Martyrs for the Trolls make life somewhat easier, and here's, depending on how much I saw of the deck, where the Gargodons actually come in. The matchup's definitely not bad, even if it isn't amazing.
So Basically I have a completely better match-up vs garruk decks and other red decks pre and after board. I don't think you could disagree with me here. I'm glad we agree that I (and the rest of the sane world) have a better build of the deck.
Lhefriel_Medies vs. SRdude, the back and forth banter of the century!
Haha, but seriously Char the 1st is technically the best burn spell as of right now.
When I first saw Cone of Flame in 10th, I thought it was raep, but it turns out it's only mediocre against aggro... stupid having to choose 3 different targets, I wanna choose YOU 3 times D@#*it!
Then Incinerate, besides the regeneration clause, for making it so that we didn't have to use a subpar card.
And after that, the spell that was named after Goofy himself, and just because it's a goblin and replaces seal of fire, which was a 4-of in every red deck I made. (Except tron.)
cept that SRdude has only looked at the math in the small picture, and not in the greater picture of the entire matchup, and an entire tourny's worth
Explain. The greater picture of the entire match-up? In regards to what? I think I did a good job of covering all the relevant information. The fact that you didn't mention anything in specific affirms this for me.
Are you a native english speaker? if you aren't than I completely understand. if you are than please make your posts more readable. That will make it easier to provide an argument.
Not really. It's much more like a teacher giving extra help to an argumentative student..
True, Lhefriel_Medies is wrong 99% of the time, every time he gets into an argument, and keeps trying to hang on as his points get weaker and weaker and more and more people say he's wrong...
Whereas you're usually right at least 50% of the time and the other 50% is generally just up to opinion or metagame.
Have you ever played magic? I don't mean to sound harsh (that's a lie, I want to drive the point home) but suspending gargadon on turn 1 is good in every single match-up except decks with DI bounce and instant speed removal like mannequin. It's solid vs teachings and it decides the game in aggro mirrors. You're lack of understanding about mogg war marhsall shows you've never played an aggro mirror nor have had god/damn cast against you. You'll have plenty of room for the 4 awesome lash out once you add the gargadons and mogg war marshalls back into the deck.
Yes, it's crystal clear to me that you don't want to be rational. You kind of just made the same point again. I do understand what you're saying. You want the game to progress like the following:
With Lash out the situation looks sort of like this
Turn 1: Creature
Turn 2: Creature, attack
Turn 3: Lash Out on their creature, attack, potentially play a 1 drop.
Scenario 2 deals as much, though potentially more damage than scenario 1, and it also allowsy ou to kill a bigger creature.
The problem with your argument is that not only is speed not "of the essence" you don't really gain any speed at all. Accolyte isn't so hot. Thunderblade Charge is better.
As I just said, the whole "half as much mana" isn't that important on turn 2 and doesn't matter at all as th game progresses. Killing something bigger and potentially dealing damage > Negligent amount of "speed".
You told him how his math would be better in that situation, and I completely agree with you there. But thats not the only situation that matters. You have to add lash out instead of another burn that can be directed at their head. That means you have to make bigger use out of the creatures you have. Making you play the Mogg War Mashal and Gargadon like you before stated is awesome. But by changing the deck to that, you've changed your matchups entirely. If he plays the speed version, he won't have to worry about flakiness of draws. Like, in a version that plays lash out, it has less one drops in the deck, making it much more likely to get only 1 one drop by turn 3. Making the Lash Out and a one drop play impossible for you. While, in his version, would also add the one drop removal with a two drop creature option.
This isn't even including the fact of how worthless Lash Out can be against control decks. The only relyable creature in control decks it kills is Finkel. All the rest you have to do 2 for 1's to get through. Unless you are playing Acolyte, which you also said was terrible, which gets through Ironfoot as well. Also, Acolyte is great for the deck post wrath. It allows him to get an immediate 4 damage through and 2 damage threat the rest of the game.
And, I explained a bit before in the entire tourny view, but your deck would be chopped full of 50-50 matchups at best in a top 8. In a slightly worse for you top 8, you'd have a terrible deck. Getting a better top 8 then that would be very rare. Mostly becuase the decks you are basing your's to beat, the other decks will have too, but yours loses in the top 8. The others have a good chance.
Additionally, this is the second time you have said I have no proof, or no #'s. Now, both times I have stated it. You don't go around saying something isn't true by lack of proof. You prove it wrong with the proof that is there. You have not proved me wrong. I have proof saying I'm right. I could show you even more exact #'s with decklists and everything, but I don't have anything to gain from that in a worthless forum like this. Considering I was play testing, and this was a respectable forum for ideas, maybe.
Get your act together too, if your gonna insult other people, at least make sure its because there is something to insult, and not your own stupidity that makes you think it is an insult.
I obviously don't play Lash Out in maindeck. It's a 4 of in the sideboard against decks with men who have a toughness equal to our less than 3. This makes the second half of your post void. You obviously don't board it in against control decks.
My turn example was fine. When did I say at any point that he was right about anything? The three turn scenario thingies illustrate that he's not right. I didn't change the deck to play Gargadon + Mogg War Marshall. That style of red aggro has been around since Sadin built the deck at regionals and has quite a bit of success afterwards. It's Medies who took out the lynchpins in exchange for do nothings.
A great writer can say a lot while writing a little. Your posts are sort of like the opposite.
You talked like you had Lash Out maindeck. And, as good writers know, if you imply something, people will take it as that meaning. That can be used as a writing tools for later, but it only really works in books. If you did anything like that in real life, then people hate you for leading them on for something false.
I would probably play Lash Out sideboard myself. Sadin also changed the deck himself to add Mogg War Marshall and Gargadon. Thats why it became good in the environment he took it to. But now, in the current standard environment, the effects of it aren't as important. The R/G decks that really used them both properly right now were the ones that accelled really fast into lots of tokens and mass pump effects. In that style of deck, you don't even want Lash Out main or sideboard.
I would probably play Lash Out sideboard myself. Sadin also changed the deck himself to add Mogg War Marshall and Gargadon. Thats why it became good in the environment he took it to. But now, in the current standard environment, the effects of it aren't as important. The R/G decks that really used them both properly right now were the ones that accelled really fast into lots of tokens and mass pump effects. In that style of deck, you don't even want Lash Out main or sideboard.
Gargdadon and Mogg War Marshall are good in the token decks, true, but why wouldn't they be played in normal Rg. That's like saying Tarmogoyf is best in a certain deck so it shouldn't be ran in others.
Which was mostly due to not being able to find any of the cards I needed on time (because, of course, I was running 3 Mogg Fanatic and 25 lands intentionally; that was my super secret tech), as I originally planned on playing a different list; even with separate testing with the actually intended list, with a range of 18-20 lands, and it still didn't do it for me. And the fact that it was still fast enough to win against other, polished decks could say something about the concept in itself; I'd have much rather had cards that directly contributed to my clock rather than ones that only disrupted my opponents. And even then...
Yeah, I read the engine part, but I don't see that as an argument against mogg war marshal or gargadon. I mean, what would you play in its place that would perform better against recurring removal?
Also, war marshal is good against elves and goblins.
It might say something if States was a polished tourney, however often it's not given there's not in most cases a high concentration of skilled players who are in one state and playing at States if there are.
That statement does like many you make show something about your understanding of the game. Speed is not the most important factor, especially not in standard, and interacting with the board position is more important. Pressure is part of winning but having the fastest clock is often only most important when you're talking about goldfish games. There is seems great because their no one on the other end of the table, but in a game you have to interact with the situations presented, and racing them is rarely the best of options.
No Gargadon and no mogg war marshall. That can't be right. I mean how do you ever beat another red deck? Like it actually seems impossible to win the red deck or even the the aggro mirror against any aggressive deck. Gargadon and War Marshall are integral parts to the deck. It's like cutting the evoke creatures from Mannequin. As has been said, this hurts your credibility.
Maybe I'm not understanding you here, but what you're saying doesn't make that much sense. You advise against plaing lash out becaue tarmogoyf also costs two mana? I mean I'd probably play a goyf before a lash out, but can't I just kill a creature and potentially dome for 3 next turn?
If at any point elves or aggro rock or whatever you're playing against doesn't have a creature in play, than I think you are going to win that game anyway. When they do play a creature, you'll have an answer for it.
Elves isn't popular? Really? I mean, I thought it was easily the mostp popular deck. It was very popualr at states and lead the pack in terms of T8s and wins. Maybe you live in bizzaro world where changeling zoo is as popular as elves, but in most places that probably isn't the case.
You shouldn't abandon your free will because pros like something, but it's usually a good indicator of what's good and what isn't. In addition to Elves I would rather have lash out against aggro rock, various ug tempo decks, well pretty any deck that plays garruk.
I'm not going to lie, even a better build of your states deck is far inferior to the Rg get in there with gargadon.
So what do we get? a deck that loses 40/60 against too much White control with Purity or Martyr of Sands, 30/70 against an elf deck, and 50/50 against Kithkin, or other similar decks to him. Those style of decks if very popular, will fill up 40% of the field. The rest of the decks, he has at least a 60/40 against all of them, sometimes the 70/30. Most decks will be mid-range aggro, and if he was playing a really fast sligh variant, he would have a 60-40 against it.
In those cases, everything that Lhefriel_Medies is right. Which, if you looked at the % of decks played at states, it proves that he is right. Pros all say Lash Out is good because of its advantage against aggro and midrange which most decks were there, but you still wouldn't play it in sligh, because you can't just turn around and burn the head. And the decks that would play it also play it because they need better matchups against those decks. So, the question is: Play the deck with better matchups in the first place, or play cards that make the matchup better for a deck. I'd rather choose the first option, because at least punish every play mistake more, and less likely to make one yourself. Maybe not at pro tour lvl, but even then, theres real reasons to choose it still.
Look at me, I can make up arbitrary numbers! I feel the Rg vs Elves match-up is 68/32 in favor of the Rg deck. On the other hand teachings is as igh as 69/31! Mannequin is aeround 5/5 but that's fine. Seriously though, who cares. My deck has far better match-ups against other aggro decks because of gargadon and mogg war marshall. My deck is already probably better against teachings and mid-range than lfriel's is. Pretty much the only match-up he could be advantaged in is Blink. So you have the red deck without the good cards which is stronger vs blink and the red deck with the good cards which is stronger vs everything else. Ding!
What? What % of decks played at states, what scenarios prove he is right? It seems like you're muttering arbitrary thoughts that have no basis what so ever. What are you even arguing for? The deck with better match-ups in the first place is my deck, and the deck that runs cards that make match-ups better is also my deck. Pro-Tour level? I'm confused.
I'm not going to bother with the rest, SR said it well enough, but you realize that classic Sligh the list played by Paul Sligh in 1996 in Atlanta that lost to Nerco in the finals, at PTQ when the format required you to 5 cards from every legal expansion was not an all out aggro deck, it was actually a deck that set out to control the board. The deck you're thinking of was Price's take on it from 1998 Tempest era, not the classic.
Also all decks learned a lesson from Sligh, that was about mana curve. The Magic competitive magic we play today uses that very idea still gained from Paul and Jay's (Jay Schneider who actually is credited with designing the deck) deck.
Ummm, No?
Lash Out is amazing in Sligh. It is a Sligh card. It clears blockers and sometimes goes to the dome. Sligh wins with creatures. Lash Out supplements that strategy. It is all kinds of good.
How in God's name is Gargadon+War Marshal inefficient? It is the best aggro combo in Type 2. Hands down. It beats other aggro decks and acts as an improved Red Raise the Alarm. I vehemently disagree with you. Gargadon+War Marshal is aggro gold.
Check out the H/W List playa:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=80563
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115 out of 200 of the decks were non-aggro non-white control. That is only have of states results in, but thats over 50% of the field where a R/G sligh deck would be good. A good majority of those aggro decks would be more midgame based as well giving this deck a better shot then it had before.
Additionally, your R/G deck might be better against elves, but you get that at the loss of control and blink matchups. Maybe even goblin matchups, depends on how the goblin deck is built.
SRDude, I don't make up randomly #'s, but your deck might have overall higher %'s for any tournament, but that is not how you win tournaments relyably. You win tournaments a lot more often by focusing on metagame. It isn't just entire tournament metagame, its top 8 metagame based on entire tournament metagame. In an aggro oriented environment, which your R/G deck version would thrive in, it would suddenly get average 50/50 matchups in top 8. A R/G sligh deck, would average 60/40 matchups in top 8 because of the other decks that thrive in an aggro oriented environment, meaning blink decks, your R/G version, and B/U control varients. You might get 1 aggro or 1 white based control with martyrs and/or purity. In that kind of top 8, you get the advantage against the aggro and other major creature based decks, but then lose it against the control decks.
This is directly related to pro level games, because in those cases people will play the decks that can get them to top 8 while having still favorable matchups, but at the same time everyone starts thinking that and then the deck that used to be unable to get to top 8 statistically, suddenly surges in power. People might realize this and it becomes weak again.
Also, I was using a bit loose termonology, I don't mean sligh, I mean Red's equivilent of Suicide Black, which is usually sligh. And yes, sligh was about the curve, but I was thinking more so of the one with Tempest in the mix as well. Fast, deadly, with burn.
Finally, Gargadon and Mogg War Marshal are ineffecient not because of their eventual damage output, but because of their immediate costs for little effect. In a deck that plays its creatures, gets as much damage as quickly as possible, and then burns them out for the rest of it, needs immediate speed. Not staying power. They already have late game wins by extra burn with higher early game damage instead of playing those cards, dealing less early on, and finishing more later. I'm not saying they aren't good cards, but they aren't staples for every red aggro deck.
The thing is... I was 90% sure that I wouldn't play the mirror match before, and against every other deck, the inevitability that Gargodon presented wasn't nearly as valuable as the ability to play quickly and interactively, which, as Babbler said, is extremely valuable. I had 4 copies in the board in case I did play matchups that it would be useful in, and I barely ever saw the reason why the War-Marshal was run anyways, besides its obvious synergy with the Gargodon, and I definitely did not want to try to cram another four copies into my board. As neither card really directly contributes to my clock, as mrofni stated, both are, strictly speaking, inefficient due to the fact that their immediate impact on the game is comparatively minimal; this is probably another reason why I value my sideboard slots much more than you do, as I chose to only fall back on the midgame if I absolutely had to. Martyrs 2-4 as well as a set of Gargodons were all there, which meant that I was looking a lot more into the cards that I put in there.
Being able to hit back to back two drops in addition to dealing with whatever problem creature you happen to run into on turns 2 and 3 is fairly valuable; much more so than being able to deal with their creature and fall back on a one drop. Similarly, even on turn four, assuming that you managed to hit every single land drop, it's much stronger to be able to answer their creature and slam an Inner-Flame Acolyte to take advantage of the gap than to just answer their creature and play the two drop you should have hit the turn before. Removal for one mana has an extremely distinct edge over that for two when speed is of the essence. Clearer now?
Ie. Shock (or Dead//Gone, or Tarfire, or... you get the idea), which will very likely do the same thing for half as much mana in most situations.
In my area, I think a grand total of two people even bothered to consider it a viable deck, let alone find or buy the cards to run it. On the other hand, I did expect a good bit of midrange and middling amounts of Teachings control, with Pickles, hence the Dryads for staying power, as well as a few lists of Shriekmaw based control, although I didn't expect anyone to run the straight up snow Mannequin list that's in the spotlight now. Very likely a good bit of WW Kithkin, as a budget choice, and Blink as well, being one of the premier tempo decks of the format. Notice an alignment between the decks that mrofni said that a faster build of the deck had an advantage against and the decks I expected? While, yes, I would have MD'd Martyrs with a bit more of a slant towards board removal if I had expect a lot of Elves, that's the only real deck in which Lash Out has an edge over a Shock variant, due to the Vanquisher.
Aggro Rock isn't a horrible matchup, depending on how much pressure you can apply before they set up. UG tempo is a fairly strong matchup, as oftentimes your speed easily outpaces whatever development they can put out before you deal enough damage to simply be able to wind down. Garruk decks are fairly hard, but I'd give a 60% or so chance of a win there, preboard- Pithing Needles and Martyrs for the Trolls make life somewhat easier, and here's, depending on how much I saw of the deck, where the Gargodons actually come in. The matchup's definitely not bad, even if it isn't amazing.
Coincidentally... This is where I would quote everything mrofni said for truth, for his generally intelligent posting in regards to this. Many, many thanks for actually bothering to read and comprehend my posts.
Incinerate - Duh, 2cc 3 damage no regen?
Sudden shock - Unless its triggered, no response. Down to 2? Die!!
Rift Bolt - Suspending in turn 1? annoying.
Monogreen 2007 | Jund Aggro MTGO 2013
1. Psionic Blast
2. Incinerate
3. Rift Bolt
For red, Rift Bolt is my fave- fantastic damage/cost ratio, and the slowness is never really relevant most of the time. Lash Out is better than people give it credit for.
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Have you ever played magic? I don't mean to sound harsh (that's a lie, I want to drive the point home) but suspending gargadon on turn 1 is good in every single match-up except decks with DI bounce and instant speed removal like mannequin. It's solid vs teachings and it decides the game in aggro mirrors. You're lack of understanding about mogg war marhsall shows you've never played an aggro mirror nor have had god/damn cast against you. You'll have plenty of room for the 4 awesome lash out once you add the gargadons and mogg war marshalls back into the deck.
Yes, it's crystal clear to me that you don't want to be rational. You kind of just made the same point again. I do understand what you're saying. You want the game to progress like the following:
Turn 1: Creature
Turn 2: Creature. attack
Turn 3: 1-2 drop, shock their creature
With Lash out the situation looks sort of like this
Turn 1: Creature
Turn 2: Creature, attack
Turn 3: Lash Out on their creature, attack, potentially play a 1 drop.
Scenario 2 deals as much, though potentially more damage than scenario 1, and it also allowsy ou to kill a bigger creature.
The problem with your argument is that not only is speed not "of the essence" you don't really gain any speed at all. Accolyte isn't so hot. Thunderblade Charge is better.
As I just said, the whole "half as much mana" isn't that important on turn 2 and doesn't matter at all as th game progresses. Killing something bigger and potentially dealing damage > Negligent amount of "speed".
The fact that the players in Bizarro world (new Mexico? Same difference?) aren't that good shouldn't be a mark against my argument. It's not really an argument though. It's more like me helping you become a better deck developer.
Teachings is a match-up where I'd rather have gargadon and mogg war marshall than a bad quirion dryad. Dryad isn't that threatening and if it is than it just gives them a good target for their removal (most layers are reluctant to kill a war marshall. They'd rather get beaten down by it). I haven't tested the Rg vs Pickles match-up, but I'd imagine that it's favorable for Rg regardless of quirion dryad. Blink is anotherm atch-up that's favorable for Rg with or without the gargs. You basically become a dog vs Elves, the mirror, aggro rock, and possibly kithkin just os you can make 2 good match-ups a little bit better. Surely you see the problem in this.
So Basically I have a completely better match-up vs garruk decks and other red decks pre and after board. I don't think you could disagree with me here. I'm glad we agree that I (and the rest of the sane world) have a better build of the deck.
Haha, but seriously Char the 1st is technically the best burn spell as of right now.
When I first saw Cone of Flame in 10th, I thought it was raep, but it turns out it's only mediocre against aggro... stupid having to choose 3 different targets, I wanna choose YOU 3 times D@#*it!
Then Incinerate, besides the regeneration clause, for making it so that we didn't have to use a subpar card.
Then Rift Bolt for making you think twice about playing that Goldmeadow Stalwart or Birds of Paradise.
And after that, the spell that was named after Goofy himself, and just because it's a goblin and replaces seal of fire, which was a 4-of in every red deck I made. (Except tron.)
Not really. It's much more like a teacher giving extra help to an argumentative student..
so he's teaching the stuff that will stonewall the kid in the future until he gets around it, instead of teaching the right stuff in the first place
Explain. The greater picture of the entire match-up? In regards to what? I think I did a good job of covering all the relevant information. The fact that you didn't mention anything in specific affirms this for me.
Are you a native english speaker? if you aren't than I completely understand. if you are than please make your posts more readable. That will make it easier to provide an argument.
True, Lhefriel_Medies is wrong 99% of the time, every time he gets into an argument, and keeps trying to hang on as his points get weaker and weaker and more and more people say he's wrong...
Whereas you're usually right at least 50% of the time and the other 50% is generally just up to opinion or metagame.
(You'd be an annoying frickin' teacher though...)
You told him how his math would be better in that situation, and I completely agree with you there. But thats not the only situation that matters. You have to add lash out instead of another burn that can be directed at their head. That means you have to make bigger use out of the creatures you have. Making you play the Mogg War Mashal and Gargadon like you before stated is awesome. But by changing the deck to that, you've changed your matchups entirely. If he plays the speed version, he won't have to worry about flakiness of draws. Like, in a version that plays lash out, it has less one drops in the deck, making it much more likely to get only 1 one drop by turn 3. Making the Lash Out and a one drop play impossible for you. While, in his version, would also add the one drop removal with a two drop creature option.
This isn't even including the fact of how worthless Lash Out can be against control decks. The only relyable creature in control decks it kills is Finkel. All the rest you have to do 2 for 1's to get through. Unless you are playing Acolyte, which you also said was terrible, which gets through Ironfoot as well. Also, Acolyte is great for the deck post wrath. It allows him to get an immediate 4 damage through and 2 damage threat the rest of the game.
And, I explained a bit before in the entire tourny view, but your deck would be chopped full of 50-50 matchups at best in a top 8. In a slightly worse for you top 8, you'd have a terrible deck. Getting a better top 8 then that would be very rare. Mostly becuase the decks you are basing your's to beat, the other decks will have too, but yours loses in the top 8. The others have a good chance.
Additionally, this is the second time you have said I have no proof, or no #'s. Now, both times I have stated it. You don't go around saying something isn't true by lack of proof. You prove it wrong with the proof that is there. You have not proved me wrong. I have proof saying I'm right. I could show you even more exact #'s with decklists and everything, but I don't have anything to gain from that in a worthless forum like this. Considering I was play testing, and this was a respectable forum for ideas, maybe.
Get your act together too, if your gonna insult other people, at least make sure its because there is something to insult, and not your own stupidity that makes you think it is an insult.
My turn example was fine. When did I say at any point that he was right about anything? The three turn scenario thingies illustrate that he's not right. I didn't change the deck to play Gargadon + Mogg War Marshall. That style of red aggro has been around since Sadin built the deck at regionals and has quite a bit of success afterwards. It's Medies who took out the lynchpins in exchange for do nothings.
A great writer can say a lot while writing a little. Your posts are sort of like the opposite.
I would probably play Lash Out sideboard myself. Sadin also changed the deck himself to add Mogg War Marshall and Gargadon. Thats why it became good in the environment he took it to. But now, in the current standard environment, the effects of it aren't as important. The R/G decks that really used them both properly right now were the ones that accelled really fast into lots of tokens and mass pump effects. In that style of deck, you don't even want Lash Out main or sideboard.
Gargdadon and Mogg War Marshall are good in the token decks, true, but why wouldn't they be played in normal Rg. That's like saying Tarmogoyf is best in a certain deck so it shouldn't be ran in others.