Heroes Remembered would be unnecessary and would prove to be a waste of card slots in a Turbofog deck since your life total is a minor concern unless you're fighting a dedicated burn deck. Maindecked Martyr of Sands provides sufficient lifegain to counteract any sort of damage you may take early on from creature beats or from a few random burn spells.
Critical cards? ... with a little reading, you would be able to figure out that the essentials boil down to at least 2 kinds of sweepers like Wrath of God or Sunscour, at least 2 types of fog effects like Pollen Lullaby, Dawn Charm, or Holy Day, and at least two different turbo pieces like Jace, Howling Mine, or Rites of Flourishing. Different people will play different styles of Turbofog, but the binding ideology of all decklists is to mill your opponent for the win by having them draw out. Others will play Hoofprints of the Stag, Mobilization, Sacred Mesa, or even Urza's Factory as alternate win conditions, but those are - in my opinion - unnecessary. But I'm sure you're smart enough to have figured that out all on your own, yes?
Maindeck Extirpate in the tune of 4 is the answer to control maindeck and it works so good at what it does that it warrents 4 of them, when you play agianst someone who honestly has nothing worth extirpating then you generally have the game won anyways and this just speeds it up by removing more cards in there library. On top of this Maindeck Extirpate wins the Mirror, it is literally the only card that matters in the mirror. I could speak volumes on how many times this saves me vs any opponent i face with turbofog.
2 Sudden Death & 4 of Mouth of ronom was key against teferi and gaddock all day today, in my opinion every single one of these cards was mvp against blue oriented decks and I would never consider cutting these, i do feel that 6 in either combination of the two are a perfect number.
Not including in this deck is a few techs that I saw all day walking around states, roughly 8-10 players not including myself piloted turbofog, if you want the decklist I garuntee look back a few pages here and within two youll see the exact decklists for every one of them, Hoofprints of the stag, Oblivion Ring, P-Nodes and Sunscour I decided where unneeded.
HoofPrints of teh stag - I tested this against aggro and control, and in either case I was racing the mill to kill them before I decked them, and often times the non haste, and the sorcery speed made them unmakable during my turn in fear of needing two playable fogs in case they counter one.
O-Ring - its an alright answer I guess, but if your giving them every card they want there gonna have an answer to it eventually, sure aggro might not but who cares about aggro the main does fine without any help on that, the control matchup is gonna bounce it, and continue to beat face or use some game breaking enchantment or continue with jace, and if your facing a jace deck, good luck with that but youll find they have answers to o-ring, my sideboard deals with jace visciously.
Sunscour - Was pretty cool untill I realized it doesnt kill regenerators, and in an aggro of troll ascetic and treetop villagers I found sunscour to be to inconsistent and wrath is strictly better. Removing two cards then playing it and being countered is often a devastating move early game, where the sunscour matters, late game you dont even need board clearing since your drawing so many fogs per turn.
P-Nodes - I tested this and decidsded its the wrong way to attack Teferi and Teeg, takes to long to get to the creatures you want, teeg decks often are paired in aggro with o-ring and even wispmare which means p-nodes was a big red flag in my opinion.
SB -
Eyes - forces them to play on there turn, thats half the battle. Did its job.
Quagnoth - Excellent addition to the screw a blue mage theme, cant bounce it, cant tap it, permanent venser, teferi and urzas factory blocker.
Does excellent against Discard strategy which is the second biggest threat to this deck. One card to stop the two biggest threats.... 4 definately.
Scragnoth - If they dont run a black source they should just scoop when seeing this.
Scryb Ranger - Of course they should only scoop instantly when they realize you have scryb ranger working with scragnoth.
I went 3-2-1 at states
R1 - Vs goblins, no land hand, one land hand, Mull to 5, took a 2 Land hand with 2 Holy days 2 lands and a martyr, drew into lands and then finally around turn 5 a turbo, by then it was far to late.
Game two I easily win, no siding options needed.
Game Three... Can you believe a repeat of Game 1? I was just as shocked. Goblin shennangins would be good if not for maindeck martyr by the way.
R2 - I face Tarmo Rack, G1&2go like this, You play a discard spell, I extirpate it within turns and drop down fog, Quagnoths post board make this a tough matchup for them. GG's.
R3 - Mirror Match, Game one we play out blazingly fast lasted about 8 minutes, we where both drawing 17 within minutes, I stall playing primal untill he plays his, and then extirpate his, he says go and I primal command.
G2 he sides in 4 cards, I have no clue what they are thinking maybe o-rings , I extirpate away whatever I can from his deck saving one extirpate in my hand for his primal making the match go quicker, he ends the game with an extirpate to my extirpate and then extirpates my primal, tricky guy.
G3 goes exactly as g1, the reason I win wa sbecause I played everythign I could all the time no matter if I need it or not, so Primal fetchs more thne his did, and I sit on extirpate as we both realize who uses extirpate first loses, hes forced to use it late game and I win.
R4- Blue, People told me to scoop both games and continue on my day but I knew better I was ready for this matchup. G1 I wait until I can extirpate no fogs, all the turbos I can play, completely suiciding onto blue, Im gonna lose anyways so i wanted to see as much of his deck as possible, I see his deck and scoop going to G2. He has no non blue removal, I side in everything taking out the mines, rites, wraths, and random fogs. We start to play and from turn 2 on I control the game with scryb ranger, stalling untill scragnoth comes out, hitting for 3 every turn while fogging randomly in turns allowing me to race him to a victory.
Game 3 he sides in a bunch of stuff, however game 3 goes exactly the same as g2 except I happen to use quagnoth on turn 5 with scryb ranger and I laugh after untapping scryb ranger to still block. all GG's, my opponent was shocked, a turbo fog player saw it all happen and started telling a bunch of people.
R5 - Im already sick of telling people my sideboard from just the past 15 minutes of downtime I had, I was asked by at least a dozen people I have never even seen before. Anyways I face Gobbies deck, so Im happy because I can avenge Round 1! Game one.... Would you believe it If I said it? Yep Im not even joking.
Game 2 - He pile shuffles to 7 piles, side shuffles twice, presents his deck, I call judge to check for a pattern and they find one, they give him a warning and we proceed the match, the whole ordeal took 28 minutes however I end up getting back a 15 minute extension, I show how displeased I am with both the ruling and the not getting a full time extension btu I get nowhere and dutiful play into game 2.
G2 Easily win it, no problems, no sidings. Halfway Through people start trickling over, a few people asked to check out my sideboard while I played and it ended up being a game long conversation going on around my table with about a dozen random people.
G3 Run out of time as predicted. My first draw and only draw for the day, Im entirely confidant a competant player can pilot this deck in a big tournament without causing any draws due to there playing and even make up for there opponents slowness with playing faster.
Round 6 - I face another TarmoRack deck and I feel confidant going into the match, Game one, no problems.
Game 2 He pile shuffles into 7, side shuffles only once and present his deck, I call a judge to check for a pattern, and they didnt bother checking the deck this time, they gave him a warning after talking to us for 20 minutes then we got a 10 minute extension. He ends up winning game 2 as I find one turbo piece but he happens to top deck one of his only 2 krosans he sided in, I never see another turbo.
Game 3 Im in a hit or miss with top 8, I win in ten minutes then a final 5 and make top 8, or I draw and dont make it at all, I decide I want top 8 so I tap out to play t2 mine, turn 3 rites (with no land to back i up) Turn 4 Rites then Extirpate, Turn 5 he extirpates my extirpate, then starts to discard cards from my hand, I fight back with a primal command fetching quagnoth having a land open but no holy day, Ive balanced at around 15 life now and he swings in on turn 6 with korlash and tarmo and two treetops, putting me at 3 which was fine by me expecting to stabilize next turn with no problems he responds to damage with nameless inversion killing me. This round ended with making huge play errors that I would not make under normal circumstances however because of those circumstances I did not place as well as this deck could have, namely +4 points and a fair chance of winnign next round too as teh entire top field was elves and counter control, both decks my build does excellent against. I voiced my opinion to teh head judge that I felt that I should be in top 8 but because I did what was right which was report cheating I basically screwed myself out of time for the round where as I could have just said whatever cheat all you want lets just play so i can stall you out and not have to worry about time issues. The judge had some sympathy for me but pretty much said to bad in not so harsh words. I decided that I was to angry to play and dropped out after mathing my way into a impossible top 8 scenerio.
Anyways Glean what you can off of that, I try to post the bigger tournys I goto in the appropiate threads, try not to be too harsh on the build because of losing the two games I honestly feel that the two losses has absolutely nothing to do with the deck, the choices in the deck, or the skill of the player playing the deck.
just real quick in addition, i extensively tested against control with this build, after a ton of Mono Blue matchups it was just impossible to make a maindeck that shut them down while still screwing over aggro thus the 15 transforming sideboard for strictly mono blue. Mystical teachings is a whole other story, With mystical teachings The eyes are no useful, they can just as easily play on there turn as yours and they only run 4 cryptic commands now (or so Ive noticed lately) even if they ran the 4 runesnags or delays they board control from black and could careless about a few 4/4's especially ones that you cant attack with this turn, dead card dont use it against them. Scragnoth for teh same reason, its pro blue, but they run black, no good, and scryb has the same allergy to black. Quagnoth replaces the Chronomatic escapes, and you use extirpates to win the match, game one should be a breeze, you bait there cryptic out and extirpate it, check to make sure they have no counters left in teh deck and then control the board with sudden death, mouth, and wraths untill you mill them out, even a player who considers themselves conservative will eventually want to counter a wrath thats getting four to 6 of there creatures and who cares about the wraths as long as you can Wrath, Extirpate, and Fog the next turn on the same turn (6-7 Mana - 3WWWB) mid-late game this shouldnt be a problem at all.
MU Pickles has the same effect on this Build that Mono Blue has, it just folds game 2 & 3, an early scryb ranger pretty much says GG, the only answer they have is a shapeshifter to turn into the scryb ranger and at that point you can play around it using it as a blocker, why every deck does not run mouth of ronom is beyond me, a basic land is basic, snow or not it makes no differance, its searchable with all there same effects that decks run, but for some reason the majority of the meta decides running snow for mouth of ronom is to risky.
well as long as people are not metaing against me ill run this, turbofog was considered rogue before states and i think over the next week the compilation of decklists will start coming together and this wont be to rogue-ish sooner then later.
Hate so far Ive seen :
Extirpate : mirror match is key for you because not many turbo fogs will make it up to the top, most of them will hover below the considered top class and generally out of top 8 range by a single round at all times, the main deck extirpate player will win game 1 everytime in the mirror and then have two 50/50 shots where you opponent has to make two successive 50/50 shots in a row which is a huge differance then just having to win either one. to beat the mirror in game 2/3 assuming they board in 4 extirpates, consider that 2-3 is considered solid by a majority, so since a select few turbofog players will continue on the ones that are best able to deal with eachother as they get funneled upwards in the ratings will continue on past the plataeu mark for turbo fog, which like I said is roughly right under the top 8 on average (I believe it was talked about being 75-80% Average Game One winnings to practically everything save any blue deck that ran more then 4 counters.)
Here's my mono-white turbo-fog-ish deck. I won a small local tournament with it, recently. I played a red burn deck with Stuffy Dolls and Shivan Meteors, a white kithkin deck and a B/R Haakon/goblin deck, none of which gave me any trouble. Ended most games at well over 100 life.
The Stuffy Dolls are there as a win condition, since I was sometimes running out of time, waiting for my opponent to draw out. The Dolls are obviously great with Pariah and will make your opponent hesitant to attack with their fatties. The only bad matchup is blue with lots of bounce and counters, like Teachings or Faeries. Any ideas how to improve that matchup?
So yea I agree that my sideboard is kinda crappy, but I didn't have the cash to make it any better.
It was a small tournament (like 15 people I think), so there were only four rounds:
1st round: I played against this player named BYE; lets just say that I totally pwned him. (I was actually really disappointed to get a bye as I really wanted to play, but oh well).
2nd Round: Slivers
This match was both sad and pathetic. I mean this is a local thing so I was not expecting much from most of the players (save for a select few who I was fearing), but this was a joke. The kid had borrowed the deck from one of the better players in the store, though neither the constructor nor the kid had ever played it. Sigh.
First game was also very weird as I had spent a good fifty or so minutes wandering the store and shuffling (I had the BYE remember), and then in this game, my "really shuffled deck" gave me so much land (it was so aggravating). Even so, with only one howling mine on the board, I wound up ***, then extirpating his Virulent Sliver. He scooped, got pissed and then said that he scooped on the second game as well. Fastest round.
2-0
Round 2: Weird Semi-Kithkin/Soldier/Life Gain B/W Deck
This was a weird deck: lots of life gain (beacon of immortality, Ajani, etc.) and then lots of crappy Soldier/Kithkin Synergy+black...really pointless. Both games I got a Chronomantic Escape lock on him, in which case I asked if he would scoop (as I had extirpated stuff and I knew there was absolutely no way he could win). He did and that was that.
4-0
Round 3 (for 1st): B/G Elves
This was against one of the good players in the store who is probably the biggest snob/jerk who goes to these things. Needless to say I really wanted to beat him. His deck was perfect too, as it was aggro and Fog just loves aggro.
Game 1: I mulligan down to five cards. That was game. Really stunk but nothing I can do about it.
Game 2: He got off to a slow start while I built up pretty quickly. With a great number of creatures on the board, he wound up extirpating my wrath of god-harsh but not game breaking. I then extirpated his extirpate, and then extirpated his thoughtseize. At this point his creatures were huge, I had an escape at 2 and 4 hand turbo instruments. All I needed was to draw into a single fog and I would have been perfectly fine: I draw 5 lands. Next turn he swings and wins. Sigh...
That last match I definitely should have won-I am chalking that one up to bad luck.
Even so, I wound up coming in 3rd (so the first time I have ever won anything HOORAY!).
Things I learned/need to take note of for the future:
Primal Command is a lot better than people give it credit for: twice I used its bounce ability to mess up my opponent. First time I used it on a Vess at 7 tokens, the second time I used it on the avatar created by ajani. I was quite happy with this card.
I need a better board against Blue. There was a lot of blue there tonight (I was soooo happy I didnt face any) and blue is very hard for this deck to face. Next time I think I will definitely grab some Scyb Rangers/Quagnoths/Eyes of the Wisent/Scragnoth/Sacred Mesas for future duels with blue.
Oh and here is a question for you all: is it wrong to ask a player to scoop if there is absolutely no way that they can win (i.e. against the B/W player) and playing more will be utterly pointless? Some of the other players griped at me, but I know that if I was in the position that he was in, even if it meant it would draw the second game (not the round mind you), I would definitely scoop simply as a common courtesy. But maybe that is just me?
Final Comments: I will agree with everyone that Turbofog is probably not competitive in major events. However, in small things like this, especially when you know the meta will mostly consist of crummy aggro decks, it is great. I am shocked I did not win the whole thing, and I am pretty happy with that feeling of confidence.
My opinion, you can definately chalk that upto bad luck, I just played in a type two tourny and whooooped elves pre-board and then with no sideboarding whooooped him again, elves top 8'ed everywhere which just makes your chances better going into tournaments.
I think honestly you should replace Chronomatic Escape for Pollen lullaby, there are multiple uses for pollen that Ive found, lets examine them real quick:
First, its vastly cheaper and does the same exact thing and you get actual results from the card right away rather then 3 turns from now.
Second, its a filter mechanic, even if you lose the clash most of the time you are filtering a useless land off the top of your deck, or in the case of early game filtering to a land to prevent mana screwing, this adds consistency to your deck.
Thirdly, if you do win its a two turn fog for one card, while technically this is not advantage you can view it as advantage since its one less card you have to use later on.
Fourth, it puts cards on the bottem of your library, this is key late game when you never see your second primal command to recur your graveyard, if by some way or how its the last card in your deck wont you be glad to know its going to be the 4th to last card giving you a chance to draw it that much earlier and not lose to yourself decking.... huge, yes...
On top of this chronomatic escape is a absolute joke to any blue deck, and honestly we should be trying to make the deck resiliant to blue with every card choice.
Primal G1, Gain 7 Fetch a martyr, Gain 15 more, go. Huge.
Eyes of the wisent I have finally cut from my board, its useless, every blue player can handle its effect without a problem, it really only stops counterspells and most of the spells you play are on there turn as well, in addition a majority of blue players run bounce as there main control condition and they can easily do that on there turn while still controlling you. My advice, find something better, personally my sideboard has already been changed and it has helped in the matchups so far.
Sacred Mesa seems it may be good, however with cards like scragnoth, scryb ranger, and quagnoth you are not giving your opponent an opportunity to counter anything, which focuses there counter on whatever else you play, which guess what will be sacred mesa, my advice, if you go with the aforementioned cards continue the theme of uncounterability, it has made my Blue matchups easier in the two matchs Ive had so far which honestly I actually look forward to playing Blue decks these days, it has become that far in my favor.
Oh and about the scooping question, it hasnt happened to me yet with turbofog however I was playing a deck before turbofog that used Chord Of calling and a bunch of effects that removed cards from peoples library, I would pick the cards that could stop a 4/4 flyer named Platinum Angel, got rid of them, chorded out the angel and asked if they scooped, when they have absolutely over whealming evidance taht you can not lose and they cannot win they usually scoop and your not out of line to ask. If they say no and you complain about that then your out of line, you have to accept if they want to continue even if it is just inevitable of what will happen in the end, who knows maybe they where trying to draw you out and save the loss of rating points.
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Critical cards? ... with a little reading, you would be able to figure out that the essentials boil down to at least 2 kinds of sweepers like Wrath of God or Sunscour, at least 2 types of fog effects like Pollen Lullaby, Dawn Charm, or Holy Day, and at least two different turbo pieces like Jace, Howling Mine, or Rites of Flourishing. Different people will play different styles of Turbofog, but the binding ideology of all decklists is to mill your opponent for the win by having them draw out. Others will play Hoofprints of the Stag, Mobilization, Sacred Mesa, or even Urza's Factory as alternate win conditions, but those are - in my opinion - unnecessary. But I'm sure you're smart enough to have figured that out all on your own, yes?
3-2-1
4x Howling Mine
4x Rites of Flourishing
4x Martyr Of Sands
4x Holy Day
4x Dawn Charm
4x Pollen Lullaby
4x Wrath of God
4x Extirpate
2x Sudden Death
2x Primal Command
4x Vivid Marsh
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Mouth of Ronom
8x Snow-Plains
4x Snow Forest
4x Eyes of the wisent
4x Quagnoth
4x Scryb Ranger
3x Scragnoth
Maindeck Extirpate in the tune of 4 is the answer to control maindeck and it works so good at what it does that it warrents 4 of them, when you play agianst someone who honestly has nothing worth extirpating then you generally have the game won anyways and this just speeds it up by removing more cards in there library. On top of this Maindeck Extirpate wins the Mirror, it is literally the only card that matters in the mirror. I could speak volumes on how many times this saves me vs any opponent i face with turbofog.
2 Sudden Death & 4 of Mouth of ronom was key against teferi and gaddock all day today, in my opinion every single one of these cards was mvp against blue oriented decks and I would never consider cutting these, i do feel that 6 in either combination of the two are a perfect number.
Not including in this deck is a few techs that I saw all day walking around states, roughly 8-10 players not including myself piloted turbofog, if you want the decklist I garuntee look back a few pages here and within two youll see the exact decklists for every one of them, Hoofprints of the stag, Oblivion Ring, P-Nodes and Sunscour I decided where unneeded.
HoofPrints of teh stag - I tested this against aggro and control, and in either case I was racing the mill to kill them before I decked them, and often times the non haste, and the sorcery speed made them unmakable during my turn in fear of needing two playable fogs in case they counter one.
O-Ring - its an alright answer I guess, but if your giving them every card they want there gonna have an answer to it eventually, sure aggro might not but who cares about aggro the main does fine without any help on that, the control matchup is gonna bounce it, and continue to beat face or use some game breaking enchantment or continue with jace, and if your facing a jace deck, good luck with that but youll find they have answers to o-ring, my sideboard deals with jace visciously.
Sunscour - Was pretty cool untill I realized it doesnt kill regenerators, and in an aggro of troll ascetic and treetop villagers I found sunscour to be to inconsistent and wrath is strictly better. Removing two cards then playing it and being countered is often a devastating move early game, where the sunscour matters, late game you dont even need board clearing since your drawing so many fogs per turn.
P-Nodes - I tested this and decidsded its the wrong way to attack Teferi and Teeg, takes to long to get to the creatures you want, teeg decks often are paired in aggro with o-ring and even wispmare which means p-nodes was a big red flag in my opinion.
SB -
Eyes - forces them to play on there turn, thats half the battle. Did its job.
Quagnoth - Excellent addition to the screw a blue mage theme, cant bounce it, cant tap it, permanent venser, teferi and urzas factory blocker.
Does excellent against Discard strategy which is the second biggest threat to this deck. One card to stop the two biggest threats.... 4 definately.
Scragnoth - If they dont run a black source they should just scoop when seeing this.
Scryb Ranger - Of course they should only scoop instantly when they realize you have scryb ranger working with scragnoth.
I went 3-2-1 at states
R1 - Vs goblins, no land hand, one land hand, Mull to 5, took a 2 Land hand with 2 Holy days 2 lands and a martyr, drew into lands and then finally around turn 5 a turbo, by then it was far to late.
Game two I easily win, no siding options needed.
Game Three... Can you believe a repeat of Game 1? I was just as shocked. Goblin shennangins would be good if not for maindeck martyr by the way.
R2 - I face Tarmo Rack, G1&2go like this, You play a discard spell, I extirpate it within turns and drop down fog, Quagnoths post board make this a tough matchup for them. GG's.
R3 - Mirror Match, Game one we play out blazingly fast lasted about 8 minutes, we where both drawing 17 within minutes, I stall playing primal untill he plays his, and then extirpate his, he says go and I primal command.
G2 he sides in 4 cards, I have no clue what they are thinking maybe o-rings , I extirpate away whatever I can from his deck saving one extirpate in my hand for his primal making the match go quicker, he ends the game with an extirpate to my extirpate and then extirpates my primal, tricky guy.
G3 goes exactly as g1, the reason I win wa sbecause I played everythign I could all the time no matter if I need it or not, so Primal fetchs more thne his did, and I sit on extirpate as we both realize who uses extirpate first loses, hes forced to use it late game and I win.
R4- Blue, People told me to scoop both games and continue on my day but I knew better I was ready for this matchup. G1 I wait until I can extirpate no fogs, all the turbos I can play, completely suiciding onto blue, Im gonna lose anyways so i wanted to see as much of his deck as possible, I see his deck and scoop going to G2. He has no non blue removal, I side in everything taking out the mines, rites, wraths, and random fogs. We start to play and from turn 2 on I control the game with scryb ranger, stalling untill scragnoth comes out, hitting for 3 every turn while fogging randomly in turns allowing me to race him to a victory.
Game 3 he sides in a bunch of stuff, however game 3 goes exactly the same as g2 except I happen to use quagnoth on turn 5 with scryb ranger and I laugh after untapping scryb ranger to still block. all GG's, my opponent was shocked, a turbo fog player saw it all happen and started telling a bunch of people.
R5 - Im already sick of telling people my sideboard from just the past 15 minutes of downtime I had, I was asked by at least a dozen people I have never even seen before. Anyways I face Gobbies deck, so Im happy because I can avenge Round 1! Game one.... Would you believe it If I said it? Yep Im not even joking.
Game 2 - He pile shuffles to 7 piles, side shuffles twice, presents his deck, I call judge to check for a pattern and they find one, they give him a warning and we proceed the match, the whole ordeal took 28 minutes however I end up getting back a 15 minute extension, I show how displeased I am with both the ruling and the not getting a full time extension btu I get nowhere and dutiful play into game 2.
G2 Easily win it, no problems, no sidings. Halfway Through people start trickling over, a few people asked to check out my sideboard while I played and it ended up being a game long conversation going on around my table with about a dozen random people.
G3 Run out of time as predicted. My first draw and only draw for the day, Im entirely confidant a competant player can pilot this deck in a big tournament without causing any draws due to there playing and even make up for there opponents slowness with playing faster.
Round 6 - I face another TarmoRack deck and I feel confidant going into the match, Game one, no problems.
Game 2 He pile shuffles into 7, side shuffles only once and present his deck, I call a judge to check for a pattern, and they didnt bother checking the deck this time, they gave him a warning after talking to us for 20 minutes then we got a 10 minute extension. He ends up winning game 2 as I find one turbo piece but he happens to top deck one of his only 2 krosans he sided in, I never see another turbo.
Game 3 Im in a hit or miss with top 8, I win in ten minutes then a final 5 and make top 8, or I draw and dont make it at all, I decide I want top 8 so I tap out to play t2 mine, turn 3 rites (with no land to back i up) Turn 4 Rites then Extirpate, Turn 5 he extirpates my extirpate, then starts to discard cards from my hand, I fight back with a primal command fetching quagnoth having a land open but no holy day, Ive balanced at around 15 life now and he swings in on turn 6 with korlash and tarmo and two treetops, putting me at 3 which was fine by me expecting to stabilize next turn with no problems he responds to damage with nameless inversion killing me. This round ended with making huge play errors that I would not make under normal circumstances however because of those circumstances I did not place as well as this deck could have, namely +4 points and a fair chance of winnign next round too as teh entire top field was elves and counter control, both decks my build does excellent against. I voiced my opinion to teh head judge that I felt that I should be in top 8 but because I did what was right which was report cheating I basically screwed myself out of time for the round where as I could have just said whatever cheat all you want lets just play so i can stall you out and not have to worry about time issues. The judge had some sympathy for me but pretty much said to bad in not so harsh words. I decided that I was to angry to play and dropped out after mathing my way into a impossible top 8 scenerio.
Anyways Glean what you can off of that, I try to post the bigger tournys I goto in the appropiate threads, try not to be too harsh on the build because of losing the two games I honestly feel that the two losses has absolutely nothing to do with the deck, the choices in the deck, or the skill of the player playing the deck.
MU Pickles has the same effect on this Build that Mono Blue has, it just folds game 2 & 3, an early scryb ranger pretty much says GG, the only answer they have is a shapeshifter to turn into the scryb ranger and at that point you can play around it using it as a blocker, why every deck does not run mouth of ronom is beyond me, a basic land is basic, snow or not it makes no differance, its searchable with all there same effects that decks run, but for some reason the majority of the meta decides running snow for mouth of ronom is to risky.
well as long as people are not metaing against me ill run this, turbofog was considered rogue before states and i think over the next week the compilation of decklists will start coming together and this wont be to rogue-ish sooner then later.
Hate so far Ive seen :
Extirpate : mirror match is key for you because not many turbo fogs will make it up to the top, most of them will hover below the considered top class and generally out of top 8 range by a single round at all times, the main deck extirpate player will win game 1 everytime in the mirror and then have two 50/50 shots where you opponent has to make two successive 50/50 shots in a row which is a huge differance then just having to win either one. to beat the mirror in game 2/3 assuming they board in 4 extirpates, consider that 2-3 is considered solid by a majority, so since a select few turbofog players will continue on the ones that are best able to deal with eachother as they get funneled upwards in the ratings will continue on past the plataeu mark for turbo fog, which like I said is roughly right under the top 8 on average (I believe it was talked about being 75-80% Average Game One winnings to practically everything save any blue deck that ran more then 4 counters.)
4 Mouth of Ronom
4 Scrying Sheets
16 Snow-Covered Plains
Creatures
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Stuffy Doll
Other Spells
4 Holy Day
4 Pollen Lullaby
4 Howling Mine
4 Wrath of God
4 Chronomantic Escape
4 Beacon of Immortality
4 Pariah
4 Story Circle
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Austere Command
3 Sacred Mesa
1 Feldon's Cane
The Stuffy Dolls are there as a win condition, since I was sometimes running out of time, waiting for my opponent to draw out. The Dolls are obviously great with Pariah and will make your opponent hesitant to attack with their fatties. The only bad matchup is blue with lots of bounce and counters, like Teachings or Faeries. Any ideas how to improve that matchup?
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Vivid Marsh
4x Mouth of Ronom
4x Snow-Covered Forest
8x Snow-Covered Plains
Creatures: 4
4x Martyr of Sands
Spells/Other: 32
4x Howling Mine
4x Rites of Flourishing
4x Wrath of God
4x Holy Day
4x Dawn Charm
4x Chronomantic Escape
2x Story Circle
4x Extirpate
2x Primal Command
4x Krosan Grip
4x Oblivion RIng
3x Imperial Mask
3x Sudden Death
1x Chronosavant
So yea I agree that my sideboard is kinda crappy, but I didn't have the cash to make it any better.
It was a small tournament (like 15 people I think), so there were only four rounds:
1st round: I played against this player named BYE; lets just say that I totally pwned him. (I was actually really disappointed to get a bye as I really wanted to play, but oh well).
2nd Round: Slivers
This match was both sad and pathetic. I mean this is a local thing so I was not expecting much from most of the players (save for a select few who I was fearing), but this was a joke. The kid had borrowed the deck from one of the better players in the store, though neither the constructor nor the kid had ever played it. Sigh.
First game was also very weird as I had spent a good fifty or so minutes wandering the store and shuffling (I had the BYE remember), and then in this game, my "really shuffled deck" gave me so much land (it was so aggravating). Even so, with only one howling mine on the board, I wound up ***, then extirpating his Virulent Sliver. He scooped, got pissed and then said that he scooped on the second game as well. Fastest round.
2-0
Round 2: Weird Semi-Kithkin/Soldier/Life Gain B/W Deck
This was a weird deck: lots of life gain (beacon of immortality, Ajani, etc.) and then lots of crappy Soldier/Kithkin Synergy+black...really pointless. Both games I got a Chronomantic Escape lock on him, in which case I asked if he would scoop (as I had extirpated stuff and I knew there was absolutely no way he could win). He did and that was that.
4-0
Round 3 (for 1st): B/G Elves
This was against one of the good players in the store who is probably the biggest snob/jerk who goes to these things. Needless to say I really wanted to beat him. His deck was perfect too, as it was aggro and Fog just loves aggro.
Game 1: I mulligan down to five cards. That was game. Really stunk but nothing I can do about it.
Game 2: He got off to a slow start while I built up pretty quickly. With a great number of creatures on the board, he wound up extirpating my wrath of god-harsh but not game breaking. I then extirpated his extirpate, and then extirpated his thoughtseize. At this point his creatures were huge, I had an escape at 2 and 4 hand turbo instruments. All I needed was to draw into a single fog and I would have been perfectly fine: I draw 5 lands. Next turn he swings and wins. Sigh...
That last match I definitely should have won-I am chalking that one up to bad luck.
Even so, I wound up coming in 3rd (so the first time I have ever won anything HOORAY!).
Things I learned/need to take note of for the future:
Primal Command is a lot better than people give it credit for: twice I used its bounce ability to mess up my opponent. First time I used it on a Vess at 7 tokens, the second time I used it on the avatar created by ajani. I was quite happy with this card.
I need a better board against Blue. There was a lot of blue there tonight (I was soooo happy I didnt face any) and blue is very hard for this deck to face. Next time I think I will definitely grab some Scyb Rangers/Quagnoths/Eyes of the Wisent/Scragnoth/Sacred Mesas for future duels with blue.
Oh and here is a question for you all: is it wrong to ask a player to scoop if there is absolutely no way that they can win (i.e. against the B/W player) and playing more will be utterly pointless? Some of the other players griped at me, but I know that if I was in the position that he was in, even if it meant it would draw the second game (not the round mind you), I would definitely scoop simply as a common courtesy. But maybe that is just me?
Final Comments: I will agree with everyone that Turbofog is probably not competitive in major events. However, in small things like this, especially when you know the meta will mostly consist of crummy aggro decks, it is great. I am shocked I did not win the whole thing, and I am pretty happy with that feeling of confidence.
I think honestly you should replace Chronomatic Escape for Pollen lullaby, there are multiple uses for pollen that Ive found, lets examine them real quick:
First, its vastly cheaper and does the same exact thing and you get actual results from the card right away rather then 3 turns from now.
Second, its a filter mechanic, even if you lose the clash most of the time you are filtering a useless land off the top of your deck, or in the case of early game filtering to a land to prevent mana screwing, this adds consistency to your deck.
Thirdly, if you do win its a two turn fog for one card, while technically this is not advantage you can view it as advantage since its one less card you have to use later on.
Fourth, it puts cards on the bottem of your library, this is key late game when you never see your second primal command to recur your graveyard, if by some way or how its the last card in your deck wont you be glad to know its going to be the 4th to last card giving you a chance to draw it that much earlier and not lose to yourself decking.... huge, yes...
On top of this chronomatic escape is a absolute joke to any blue deck, and honestly we should be trying to make the deck resiliant to blue with every card choice.
Primal G1, Gain 7 Fetch a martyr, Gain 15 more, go. Huge.
Eyes of the wisent I have finally cut from my board, its useless, every blue player can handle its effect without a problem, it really only stops counterspells and most of the spells you play are on there turn as well, in addition a majority of blue players run bounce as there main control condition and they can easily do that on there turn while still controlling you. My advice, find something better, personally my sideboard has already been changed and it has helped in the matchups so far.
Sacred Mesa seems it may be good, however with cards like scragnoth, scryb ranger, and quagnoth you are not giving your opponent an opportunity to counter anything, which focuses there counter on whatever else you play, which guess what will be sacred mesa, my advice, if you go with the aforementioned cards continue the theme of uncounterability, it has made my Blue matchups easier in the two matchs Ive had so far which honestly I actually look forward to playing Blue decks these days, it has become that far in my favor.
Oh and about the scooping question, it hasnt happened to me yet with turbofog however I was playing a deck before turbofog that used Chord Of calling and a bunch of effects that removed cards from peoples library, I would pick the cards that could stop a 4/4 flyer named Platinum Angel, got rid of them, chorded out the angel and asked if they scooped, when they have absolutely over whealming evidance taht you can not lose and they cannot win they usually scoop and your not out of line to ask. If they say no and you complain about that then your out of line, you have to accept if they want to continue even if it is just inevitable of what will happen in the end, who knows maybe they where trying to draw you out and save the loss of rating points.