I've looked over this deck and I do agree that you rock any of the many aggro decks that I'm thinking will be at any of the states events here in a couple weeks. However, that being said, it seems that you have a terrible matchup against anything with blue in it? Also, if you lose the advantage of howling mine and/or rites of flourishing arent you in trouble there too? I'm thinking anything thats playing blue w/out white or green will probably be running something like boomerang in the sideboard at a minimum and ones with white/green will have disenchant/k-grip in the board for you too.
So my question is, what is your game plan then? Eyes of the Wisent isn't a bad idea, but again disenchant/boomerang effects seem problematic for you with that too.
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EDH Decks:
UWMerfolk (Sygg, River Guide) B Vampires (Anowon the Ruin Sage) BRU Zombies! (Lord of Tresserhorn) WUBRG Allies (Karona, False God) W Soldiers (Darien, King of Kjeldor)
I've looked over this deck and I do agree that you rock any of the many aggro decks that I'm thinking will be at any of the states events here in a couple weeks. However, that being said, it seems that you have a terrible matchup against anything with blue in it? Also, if you lose the advantage of howling mine and/or rites of flourishing arent you in trouble there too? I'm thinking anything thats playing blue w/out white or green will probably be running something like boomerang in the sideboard at a minimum and ones with white/green will have disenchant/k-grip in the board for you too.
So my question is, what is your game plan then? Eyes of the Wisent isn't a bad idea, but again disenchant/boomerang effects seem problematic for you with that too.
I dont tihnk blue will be as bad as we are thinking. Everyone seems to be running light permission with heavy anti aggro elements... in fact most decks only counter seem to be cryptic command. Other than that we can fog the board forever against them. Play the deck right and control isnt that hard.
In regards to teferi, how many decks run him now? Only certain teaching builds and only as a 1 of for teachings fetch... all you need to do is resolve one escape through there light counter wall and then skip 5 turns... the game will be over very quickly.
Also in regards to life being at 50 thats all well and good if you are running martyrs... personally i would rather have more fogs in the deck because other than the SMALL amount of burn decks are running what is really going to hurt you that martyr prevents. Also remember we have a 50 minute clock to win on, and our deck isnt the fastest around. The only way to win fast(other than splashing blue for jace which is a bad idea) is to activate savant three or four times with 3-5 mine effects out. That will end the game very very quickly.
The thing with Disenchant effects: 1) They aren't MD..they're SB. 2) NO ONE runs more than 4 of them...and again..all SB 3) This deck should have 12-16 "must disenchants" post SB if you SB in EotW and/or Hoofprints of the Stag..along with the 8 Turbo Engine components.
And you're right..this deck isn't a big fan of Permission, hence the EotW and Hoofprints in my board to turn this deck from a slow-rolling "deck you" deck to a faster paced aggro-control monster.
As to the comments about Ontario being a hard place to come up in....you're a better player for it. Ask someone who "came up" through the ranks there before moving. (me..lol) Playing with players of that calibre never hurt anyone..and you learn the intricacies much faster.
All that said and done...I love this deck, but I don't know if it's as strong against the field as my G/W Aggro-conrol variant (decklist still super-secret tech...I haven't seen anything like it on here or anywhere else...;) ). Admittedly..that deck scoops to this one..lol...but this is the only list I've played against that truly gives it fits consistently. It all comes down, as always, to a meta-reading choice. I keep reading and re-reading this article (until my head hurts..lol) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/fk56 and I just don't know...
Also in regards to Teferi and Teeg, if you are running four Mouth of Ronoms, you should be able to deal with them before they become a problem.
I beat a Teachings deck at my FNM with this deck... even after being hit with Extripate four times game two for Extripate, Howling Mine, Rites of Flourishing, and Hide//Seek. During the first game, I caused him to scoop after getting a couple of Howling Mines in play and had enough Mouths to kill his Teferis that would prevent my fogging.
The second game, I won on the back of story circle after Seeking out his non-Teferi win conditions (Arcanis, Vesuvan Shapeshifter), then cast a Sunscour once he tapped out for the Pickles-lock, and cracked a Crypt to prevent him from reusing any of his Teachings effects and getting any real mileage out of Dralnu. I used a cane late to shuffle my graveyard into my library, and he would have drawn his one out (Take Possession) too late for him to have done any real damage to me before decking (and I had a second circle in hand, and was at 18 life).
Tough game? Undoubtedly, and the Teachings player told me that the two biggest problems my deck caused for him was his inability to play any of his few creatures for fear of them being Mouthed, and Seek game two. And as counter-heavy decks should not be as prevalent as they were in Ravnica-Time Spiral...
However, I'm going to be sad at the loss of Hide//Seek. I like being able to search through my opponent's library for bad cards, and take them out pre-emptively. Would Bitter Ordeal be worth the sideboard slots? The gravestorm ability is a nice bonus, but it's not a necessity. Has anyone tested Ordeal as a way to deal with problem cards, or know of any cards that are similar to Seek that would be legal come States?
Question; how does this deck do against Control Game one. I was thinking about adding some Mobilizations to my build to work against control. I think Chronosavant helps a little bit, but not too much. Also, Feldon's cane is amazing, it is far better than Gaea's blessing or primal command.
Also, Eyes of the wisent doesn't help too much for me against control consisdering I am getting bashed by their Bogardian hellkite while they counter my holy days/Dawn Charms/ Pollen Lullaby.
Chronosavant helps a little bit, but he just gets bounced by Venser most of the time. Hoofprints is absolutely horrid. I get it out and am like well, that doesn't help too much. Story circle helps but again not very much. The only good thing i feel like I can try to do is just build up my saves and pray.
Mouth of Ronom is absolutely amazing, I love it. I think it should be in this deck byfar, easily. It kills threats easy and Teferi(which all you already know).
Another possibillity is Grinning Totem, I may sound like I am joking but he is a possibillity. Grabbing a Teferi against Control wins you the game. with this type of deck at least.
Also, what about millstone? Any uses there? Whetwheel?
And one other big thing is Tormod's Crypt against Haakon decks. It is mean.
Deck almost has to be snow covered. Looks like most have figured that out. Deck needs 2 different types of shuffle effects incase you get extrapated. I like 2 Blessings 1 cane and 1 Command. More in board for counter decks. Plus EotW, and Hoof.
B/G looks to be the problem, but can be managed.
Story Circle is very important.
Good deck
Deck almost has to be snow covered. Looks like most have figured that out. Deck needs 2 different types of shuffle effects incase you get extrapated. I like 2 Blessings 1 cane and 1 Command. More in board for counter decks. Plus EotW, and Hoof.
B/G looks to be the problem, but can be managed.
Story Circle is very important.
Good deck
Ummm..why do I need to worry about not being attacked for more than one turn? If I'm running 16-20 fogs (my build runs Holy Day, Dawn Charm, Pollen Lullaby, and Darkness) I should be able to fog every turn without worry. (I am running a Turbo engine that draws me several extra cards each turn, am I not?) I think the Chronosavant trick takes up too much space for the benefit it provides...I can ensure the opponent decks before me simply by running a couple of shuffle effects..I don't need to get all tricky about it. As to snow-covered...say what?! Why, exactly, do I need snow in this deck? The whole point of this deck is that anything that relies on creatures to deal me damage is dead. What does snow give me that I can't get straight up?
Ummm..why do I need to worry about not being attacked for more than one turn? If I'm running 16-20 fogs (my build runs Holy Day, Dawn Charm, Pollen Lullaby, and Darkness) I should be able to fog every turn without worry. (I am running a Turbo engine that draws me several extra cards each turn, am I not?) I think the Chronosavant trick takes up too much space for the benefit it provides...I can ensure the opponent decks before me simply by running a couple of shuffle effects..I don't need to get all tricky about it. As to snow-covered...say what?! Why, exactly, do I need snow in this deck? The whole point of this deck is that anything that relies on creatures to deal me damage is dead. What does snow give me that I can't get straight up?
Cheers,
Austin
You need Mouth of Ronom to deal with Teferi and you need snow mana to activate Mouth of Ronom.
16 fogs is too many, as they will clog your deck against control. Also, Wrath will help if you manage to not have a fog (it IS possible). Seriously, why do you want to *not* run Wrath?
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Hey, you. Yes, you reading this sig. Get off your computer, go find a copy of Skies of Arcadia: Legends and play it. Trust me, you won't be disappointed.
So you guys don't like Jace Beleren? My mana base can afford it to get :symu::symu:, and with him, I don't need any shuffle effects because I can usually protect him with your fog effects until he can mill for 20 AND he is another Howling Mine!
Okay, against counter-based decks, I might need Feldon's Cane, but only in the sideboard, I guess.
Also, nobody uses Porphyry Nodes here...I sometimes have trouble against too fast Aggro decks that kill me before I can build my engine up. The nodes help A LOT against that. Give it a try!
Mouth of Ronom stops Teferi, which isn't played that much anymore. But what else does it stop which we would lose to? I don't lose to Gaddock Teeg because he doesn't stop my fogs and I can Oblivion Ring[/card him, also Porphyry Nodes gets rid of him.
But if you play only two colors, you can play the Mouths as additional control which is good, of course. It just isn't a "play them or lose"-decision.
If our opponent has Forced Fruition, that's a problem, right, but you can Oblivion Ring it and only have to draw seven once.
You do have to fog or wrath every turn to build up Jace, yes, but if you manage it, you probably win. If you don't manage it, he's a Howling Mine which buys you time (creatures attack him rather than you, sort of "lifegain").
EDIT2: The blue version is unstoppable in the mirror. They run forced fruition and jace. What can you do to that?
That's one of the things you come to realize once you look over all of the deck's supposed 'weaknesses.' It's also the main reason I run blue instead of green... Jace(as well as access to permission/bounce) owns the control matchup. And in the GW version, the only reason you won't lose to profane command every game is because of Martyr(it's not like their distresses/thoughtseizes/extirpates will fail to take all the dawn charms away from your disposal). There's also the fact that if you resolve Forced Fruition against a control deck, you win the game. And doesn't it just seem like a better idea to be proactive about milling your opponent rather than just reactive on trying to not lose the game yourself(In other words, Jace > Primal Command in terms of wincons)? Those are my thoughts on why Blue is better than Green, but hey, only testing will tell...
Another thing, I find Oblivion Ring absolutely necessary for this deck, mainly to get rid of troublesome non-creature permanents(or other things you can't just Fog every turn; Teferi comes to mind).
Question does this deck scoop to Austere Command? I am thinking it does.
Not if you counter it with Cryptic Command... But seriously, the nonblue versions of this deck need to start looking for solutions to Austere Command, seeing as it destroys all the Circles, Mines, Rites, Rings, Hoofprints, and otherwise amazing Artis and Enchants that you use to win the game...
I think it all comes down to metagaming. If 50% of the field is running aggro, this deck nearly "auto-wins" vs. that half. Against control post-SB the only truly terrible matchups are discard and a "mirror" v. a U/W mill-type deck. This is also one deck that Haak/Slash is great against. I'm not sure how many people will be running the Bitter Ordeal combo, but the only answer we have for it is O-Ring...so you have to hope to draw into one or take up board space for Crib Swaps before you force feed your opponent their combo from the turbo engine. Austere Command is at best a SB card for most, I would think. (With *** and Sunscour as board-clearing white options in Standard). And the deck doesn't scoop to it...at best, it's a 3 or 4 for 1 (which is great for them..no doubt)..but if you're packing Primals/other reshuffling effects anyway, all you have to do is shuffle em back in and draw back into them. (Again, another reason I advocate using so many fog effects...you should be pretty close to being able to fog away the game w/o even worrying about your Turbo Engine being in place..)
All that being said..with true permission decks on the decline (Teaching is down to, what, 6-8 real counters?..they're prepping for an aggro/creature format too...), and a solid answer to them in the board (EotW), I think that this is a possible Tier 1 contender, given some favourable pairings (and lets be honest...the same can be said for any of the good decks..pit them against a "nemesis" and they don't have a prayer..). As I've said before...it all comes down to metagaming...and with a truly unknown meta..it's hard to say.
Austere Command doesn't target, so Dawn Charm won't help you against them.
I might actually try 2 Hardcounters mainboard for the lategame to prevent something like Austere Command crushing me. Sideboard might be too late if you lose in the lategame due to a command.
@ Porphyry Nodes: I know they aren't that good once you built your engine up. But they help you survive the early game, and I felt I needed something to do exactly that. If you survive it anyway for some reason (you don't draw Martyr every game, you know) , you don't have to run them.
Ok so I have been following this thread for a while now, and now I was wondering if you good folks could help me flesh out the turbo fog list that I want to play at upcoming FNM tournaments. Here it is:
I have absolutely no idea what the metagame is at the local magic store, but I have a feeling a lot of people are gonna jump on the tribal bandwagon so I think this will be a good deck to run.
Some of the decisions I made: +3 Oblivion Rings, -1 wrath of god, -2 chronosavants. This was done because I found the chronosavants were not really doing much of anything. Plus I feel that the oblivion rings will be great for both early board control, and will get rid of any nast enchantments/artifacts. Plus it helps against planeswalkers which will be great. Next I decided on 1 primal command and 2 gaea's blessings as opposed to one or the other: I figured this will help protect against extirpate, and mill (I would love a jace to mill me for 20, only to find a blessing in there :D). Finally, I really like story circles in this list: it totally messes up burn, and can stop pingers. Plus then I can start using dawn charms for other things (such as thoughtseize).
Now the sideboard is where I am really unsure. The chronosavants are there against discard, as well as the quagnoths and imperial masks (though the masks can double for burn). Primal command is there if I need it, eyes of the wisent against blue, and krosan grip against artifacts/enchantments. I dont know if I should put Hoofprints of the stag in there-I feel it would work very well, but I dont know what to take out (imperial masks?). Any suggestions would be great-I have really appreciated this thread, I just need to finalize things.
My build - been having great success with it thus far even against an updated Boom/Bust Angelfire variant, MU Pickles, and all sorts of aggro (but that's a given). Way too tired to give detailed explanations on card choices, but feel free to ask and/or constructively criticize. I'll get back to you when I wake up.
Looks interesting, I am curious how seht's tiger is working out (and why it is in there)? Additionally, have you triedjester's scepter? I have found that when I have oblivion rings, I don't always know what to do with them, whereas scepters always seem to be worthwhile.
Finally what in your deck has made control matches easier? I mean the real complaint of the deck is control, so if people really cracked down on the deck, and we made it so that it wasn't an instant loss against control that would be amazing (and would probably revive the deck). I think hoofprints of the stag might be the main card to do it (as it can be placed in the deck with minimal changes. What do you think?
Regarding my own comment about having "great success" against a control deck like MU Pickles, perhaps I should have been clearer. By that I mean that it's not a complete autoloss like most people make it out to be. My playtest group has several different versions - some light on permission, others not so much - and most of my "success" stems from playing two mainboard Extirpate. It is totally devastating for them to lose some control of the table or key pieces to their lock; at that point, winning is not entirely impossible.
Seht's Tiger plays as another fog effect, essentially. However, it can also kill a random Gaddock Teeg on the table if he's totally preventing a Wrath of God from being played. Look at it like this: GW player attacks with everything, desperately trying to push damage; flash in Seht's Tiger, declare protecting from green or whatever majority color they're attacking with; block Gaddock and kill it (not a lot of pump spells in decklists... GW player can't even play Stonewood Invocation to save his Gaddock!); Wrath of God or Sunscour on your next turn. Chances are they'll play a second Gaddock, it does happen, but there are also times when it won't. Aside from that, Seht's also becomes Dawn Charm #5 and Angel's Grace #3 (preventing lethal Consume Spirit/Fireball/whatever).
As for another way to managing control, I would rather play Sacred Mesa or Mobilization over Hoofprints mostly because the other two are not entirely dependent on drawing cards. Against a control matchup (especially game 2), it's very favorable for the Turbofog player to resolve this token producer early in order to apply increasingly fatal pressure on the control player. Sacred Mesa and Mobilization achieve this very well because you can make the tokens right away; Hoofprints of the Stag suffers from the fact that you have to wait for four draws until you get a large creature. There are times when a player won't see any Turbo pieces until later or won't be able to play any for a while or won't be able to resolve much at all, thereby limiting the effectiveness of Hoofprints. However, the control player is likely to have sided out creature control in game 2, allowing Turbo players to focus on simply generating all the tokens they need to win instead of actually playing Turbo (they could, if only to draw away counters from key spells, if they wanted).
So obvious this deck is really good vs Aggro. What are the control matchups like (i.e. UBx Teachings). Other than the white command what else are problem cards for this deck?
So obvious this deck is really good vs Aggro. What are the control matchups like (i.e. UBx Teachings). Other than the white command what else are problem cards for this deck?
I am not running this deck do to it being too well expect HOWEVER, the control matchup is pretty decent if you have tested the deck enough to know how to win it... since at most they are running 8 counters now and its not so much permission based control the deck can beat control better post lorwyn.
Changes:
- Removed Snow-Covered Island and Dreadship Reef because I found Academy Ruins so difficult to use. Also removed that land from the sideboard.
- Eyes of the Wisent was taken out simply because I couldn't find enough to play tonight.
+ Treetop Villages, Mystic Enforcers, and Quagnoths come in for the control matchup. "Man plan" along with the Mines and Rites provide us enough steam to power through the rest of the match.
+ Chronosavant for the mirror match. Skipping turns versus another Turbofog is great.
My four matches tonight - I'll just tell you now I dropped in the fifth.
Match 1: Ur Kithkin, match lost (win-loss-loss)
Game One: Powerful start of the typical Kithkin aggro archetype (nothing Turbofog can't handle), but drops a surprise with Bust of Boom/Bust and destroys all of my lands. I recover from having multiple Howling Mines and Rites of Flourishing sitting around and then receive the next surprise of Austere Command in the main. I recover after a lucky topdeck of Sunscour and a couple Extirpates, thus removing those big threats and winning me the game.
Game One: It was almost painful to watch my opponent repeatedly attack into Dawn Charm and Pollen Lullaby, further setting herself up for multiple Wrath of God. No maindeck hate on her part, so this was practically a easy win.
Game Two: I'm about two turns away from my opponent decking due to both of us drawing six cards per turn, essentially a fresh hand. My Wrath had resolved on my previous turn but she then casts a slew of newer Elves and double Tarmogoyfs, enough power on the table to kill me in a single alpha strike. The sad part is that the Wrath was the last sweeper in my hand. Even sadder was that I had no fog effect left in hand. What's even worse is that even after drawing six cards on my own turn, I didn't find a single fog effect.
Game Three: Time ran out before we could even get a game going. Sigh. This is a matchup that should have been a buy for me, but fortune chose not to smile on me tonight.
Match 3: UBw Teachings, match loss (win-loss-loss)
Game One: I get an Extirpate on a his Teferi fairly early after I had shot it with a Mouth of Ronom, revealing to me that he played no permission except for a single Pact of Negation. It was not difficult to win afterwards despite my opponent being classified as the control player.
Game Two: Out of fear, I go with the "Man Plan" and side in tons of creatures to fight. Huge mistake. Another Extirpate on him reveals that there was little change in his deck makeup. It would have been another ridiculously easy win had I not changed my own deck.
Game Three: I hand him the game, not even bothering to play even though we had about 10 minutes left, because I thought that my friends and I were leaving to go eat somewhere since another friend and I thought everybody else had scrubbed out. I make the snap decision to give my opponent the win since I myself was very, very hungry.
Match 4: GWb Turbofog mirror, match win (win-win)
***This is the most retarded mirror match in recent Standard memory. If you thought a game of Martyr-Proclamation decks was bad ... well this is just as bad, too, if not worse, because you're just waiting for the other guy to deck. However, this might just be the FASTEST mirror match you'll ever see, hear, or read about.
Game One: ...it's not hard to imagine what happens. We both play Howling Mine and Rites of Flourishing and play through, drawing and drawing and drawing and drawing. An Extirpate on him reveals that he plays two Feldon's Cane, thus trumping my single copy and possibly leading to my loss. However, I figure that I can play around it by not playing lands in my graveyard through Crucible of Worlds so that when I do get to use my Cane, my library will be slightly bigger. So my second Extirpate goes off, thinning his deck and graveyard of four more cards, making deck ultimately smaller. He then activates his first Cane, reshuffling his graveyard and then discarding. After I activate my own Cane, I redraw an Extirpate and use it, again thinning his deck down a little more. A couple turns later, I'm down to two more turns of living and he's down to 3 cards, prompting him to use his second Cane. I draw my last full set of cards, play whatever, and pass the turn. He draws, though his deck was already so thin that the next turn would kill him, plays, then passes. On my upkeep, I play Angel's Grace, preventing me from losing by decking. He then decks on his draw step and loses. YES!
Game Two: Sideboarded in three Krosan Grip and one Chronosavant. Opening hand of one of each basic land type in the deck and a Krosan Grip and other things - I keep it thinking that his Rites or Mines will help me out later. I already knew I had won when he played a turn two Howling Mine and a third turn Feldon's Cane. On my third turn draw, I pick up an Extirpate. His fourth turn sees little action, but on my fourth turn and land drop I cast Krosan Grip on his Feldon's Cane and immediately Extirpate it as soon as I could. He scoops. Expressions of disbelief and awe was heard throughout the shop: a Turbofog mirror finishing on time! A mirror game finishing in less than three minutes!
My friends and I then decided to leave afterwards to grab some Jack in the Box and then head home.
Ultimately, I'm very happy with how Turbofog performed at my local shop - we have many highly skilled players to compete against. For it to do "well" now without advanced tweaking and playtesting bodes very well for me, in fact. I've never had significant playtesting time against all the types of decks out there, so I'll scratch up this shoddy performance to inexperience and lack of proper sideboarding wisdom (especially during the UBw match).
If you guys have any other tourney reports or experiences with Turbofog performance, please share it with the rest us. It would be a good way for other players to get a feel for how to work with the deck on a deeper level and prepare us for a more shifting Standard.
what About Heros Rembered. the game last so much longer than 10 turns w/ this deck so first turn drop four 20 life? and what are the MOST needed cards for this deck; Wrath? Mines? what? thanks!
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So my question is, what is your game plan then? Eyes of the Wisent isn't a bad idea, but again disenchant/boomerang effects seem problematic for you with that too.
UWMerfolk (Sygg, River Guide)
B Vampires (Anowon the Ruin Sage)
BRU Zombies! (Lord of Tresserhorn)
WUBRG Allies (Karona, False God)
W Soldiers (Darien, King of Kjeldor)
I dont tihnk blue will be as bad as we are thinking. Everyone seems to be running light permission with heavy anti aggro elements... in fact most decks only counter seem to be cryptic command. Other than that we can fog the board forever against them. Play the deck right and control isnt that hard.
In regards to teferi, how many decks run him now? Only certain teaching builds and only as a 1 of for teachings fetch... all you need to do is resolve one escape through there light counter wall and then skip 5 turns... the game will be over very quickly.
Also in regards to life being at 50 thats all well and good if you are running martyrs... personally i would rather have more fogs in the deck because other than the SMALL amount of burn decks are running what is really going to hurt you that martyr prevents. Also remember we have a 50 minute clock to win on, and our deck isnt the fastest around. The only way to win fast(other than splashing blue for jace which is a bad idea) is to activate savant three or four times with 3-5 mine effects out. That will end the game very very quickly.
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
And you're right..this deck isn't a big fan of Permission, hence the EotW and Hoofprints in my board to turn this deck from a slow-rolling "deck you" deck to a faster paced aggro-control monster.
As to the comments about Ontario being a hard place to come up in....you're a better player for it. Ask someone who "came up" through the ranks there before moving. (me..lol) Playing with players of that calibre never hurt anyone..and you learn the intricacies much faster.
All that said and done...I love this deck, but I don't know if it's as strong against the field as my G/W Aggro-conrol variant (decklist still super-secret tech...I haven't seen anything like it on here or anywhere else...;) ). Admittedly..that deck scoops to this one..lol...but this is the only list I've played against that truly gives it fits consistently. It all comes down, as always, to a meta-reading choice. I keep reading and re-reading this article (until my head hurts..lol) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/fk56 and I just don't know...
Cheers,
Austin
I beat a Teachings deck at my FNM with this deck... even after being hit with Extripate four times game two for Extripate, Howling Mine, Rites of Flourishing, and Hide//Seek. During the first game, I caused him to scoop after getting a couple of Howling Mines in play and had enough Mouths to kill his Teferis that would prevent my fogging.
The second game, I won on the back of story circle after Seeking out his non-Teferi win conditions (Arcanis, Vesuvan Shapeshifter), then cast a Sunscour once he tapped out for the Pickles-lock, and cracked a Crypt to prevent him from reusing any of his Teachings effects and getting any real mileage out of Dralnu. I used a cane late to shuffle my graveyard into my library, and he would have drawn his one out (Take Possession) too late for him to have done any real damage to me before decking (and I had a second circle in hand, and was at 18 life).
Tough game? Undoubtedly, and the Teachings player told me that the two biggest problems my deck caused for him was his inability to play any of his few creatures for fear of them being Mouthed, and Seek game two. And as counter-heavy decks should not be as prevalent as they were in Ravnica-Time Spiral...
However, I'm going to be sad at the loss of Hide//Seek. I like being able to search through my opponent's library for bad cards, and take them out pre-emptively. Would Bitter Ordeal be worth the sideboard slots? The gravestorm ability is a nice bonus, but it's not a necessity. Has anyone tested Ordeal as a way to deal with problem cards, or know of any cards that are similar to Seek that would be legal come States?
For reference, the sideboard I'm building (at the moment) is:
4 Hoofprints of the Stag
4 Eyes of the Wisnet
2 Imperial Mask
1 Sunscour
1 Feldon's Cane or Primal Command or Gaea's Blessing
3 Seek Replacement or Disenchant
Also, Eyes of the wisent doesn't help too much for me against control consisdering I am getting bashed by their Bogardian hellkite while they counter my holy days/Dawn Charms/ Pollen Lullaby.
Chronosavant helps a little bit, but he just gets bounced by Venser most of the time. Hoofprints is absolutely horrid. I get it out and am like well, that doesn't help too much. Story circle helps but again not very much. The only good thing i feel like I can try to do is just build up my saves and pray.
Mouth of Ronom is absolutely amazing, I love it. I think it should be in this deck byfar, easily. It kills threats easy and Teferi(which all you already know).
Another possibillity is Grinning Totem, I may sound like I am joking but he is a possibillity. Grabbing a Teferi against Control wins you the game. with this type of deck at least.
Also, what about millstone? Any uses there? Whetwheel?
And one other big thing is Tormod's Crypt against Haakon decks. It is mean.
To the person asking for a current list, here's mine:
7 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Mouth of Ronom
3 Terramorphic Expanse
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Arctic Flats
2 Caves of Koilos
Fog
4 Holy Day
4 Dawn Charm
4 Martyr of Sands
3 Chronomantic Escape
4 Rites of Florishing
4 Howling Mine
Removal/Mill/Misc.
3 Wrath of God
2 Sunscour
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Story Circle
3 Jester's Scepter
3 Extirpate
4 Hoofprints of the Stag
4 Eyes of the Wisnet
2 Imperial Mask
1 Feldon's Cane / Primal Command / Gaea's Blessing
1 Sunscour
3 Bitter Ordeal / Disenchant
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
B/G looks to be the problem, but can be managed.
Story Circle is very important.
Good deck
Ummm..why do I need to worry about not being attacked for more than one turn? If I'm running 16-20 fogs (my build runs Holy Day, Dawn Charm, Pollen Lullaby, and Darkness) I should be able to fog every turn without worry. (I am running a Turbo engine that draws me several extra cards each turn, am I not?) I think the Chronosavant trick takes up too much space for the benefit it provides...I can ensure the opponent decks before me simply by running a couple of shuffle effects..I don't need to get all tricky about it. As to snow-covered...say what?! Why, exactly, do I need snow in this deck? The whole point of this deck is that anything that relies on creatures to deal me damage is dead. What does snow give me that I can't get straight up?
Cheers,
Austin
You need Mouth of Ronom to deal with Teferi and you need snow mana to activate Mouth of Ronom.
16 fogs is too many, as they will clog your deck against control. Also, Wrath will help if you manage to not have a fog (it IS possible). Seriously, why do you want to *not* run Wrath?
Hey, you. Yes, you reading this sig. Get off your computer, go find a copy of Skies of Arcadia: Legends and play it. Trust me, you won't be disappointed.
Okay, against counter-based decks, I might need Feldon's Cane, but only in the sideboard, I guess.
Also, nobody uses Porphyry Nodes here...I sometimes have trouble against too fast Aggro decks that kill me before I can build my engine up. The nodes help A LOT against that. Give it a try!
But if you play only two colors, you can play the Mouths as additional control which is good, of course. It just isn't a "play them or lose"-decision.
If our opponent has Forced Fruition, that's a problem, right, but you can Oblivion Ring it and only have to draw seven once.
You do have to fog or wrath every turn to build up Jace, yes, but if you manage it, you probably win. If you don't manage it, he's a Howling Mine which buys you time (creatures attack him rather than you, sort of "lifegain").
That's one of the things you come to realize once you look over all of the deck's supposed 'weaknesses.' It's also the main reason I run blue instead of green... Jace(as well as access to permission/bounce) owns the control matchup. And in the GW version, the only reason you won't lose to profane command every game is because of Martyr(it's not like their distresses/thoughtseizes/extirpates will fail to take all the dawn charms away from your disposal). There's also the fact that if you resolve Forced Fruition against a control deck, you win the game. And doesn't it just seem like a better idea to be proactive about milling your opponent rather than just reactive on trying to not lose the game yourself(In other words, Jace > Primal Command in terms of wincons)? Those are my thoughts on why Blue is better than Green, but hey, only testing will tell...
Another thing, I find Oblivion Ring absolutely necessary for this deck, mainly to get rid of troublesome non-creature permanents(or other things you can't just Fog every turn; Teferi comes to mind).
Not if you counter it with Cryptic Command... But seriously, the nonblue versions of this deck need to start looking for solutions to Austere Command, seeing as it destroys all the Circles, Mines, Rites, Rings, Hoofprints, and otherwise amazing Artis and Enchants that you use to win the game...
Have/Want List
All that being said..with true permission decks on the decline (Teaching is down to, what, 6-8 real counters?..they're prepping for an aggro/creature format too...), and a solid answer to them in the board (EotW), I think that this is a possible Tier 1 contender, given some favourable pairings (and lets be honest...the same can be said for any of the good decks..pit them against a "nemesis" and they don't have a prayer..). As I've said before...it all comes down to metagaming...and with a truly unknown meta..it's hard to say.
Cheers,
Austin
Austere Command doesn't target, so Dawn Charm won't help you against them.
I might actually try 2 Hardcounters mainboard for the lategame to prevent something like Austere Command crushing me. Sideboard might be too late if you lose in the lategame due to a command.
@ Porphyry Nodes: I know they aren't that good once you built your engine up. But they help you survive the early game, and I felt I needed something to do exactly that. If you survive it anyway for some reason (you don't draw Martyr every game, you know) , you don't have to run them.
4x Howling Mine
4x Martyr of Sands
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Story Circle
4x Rites of Flourishing
4x Holy Day
4x Dawn Charm
4x Pollen Lullaby
3x Wrath of God
2x Gaea's Blessing
1x Primal Command
4x Brushland
4x Arctic Flats
4x Snow-Covered Forest
3x Mouth of Ronom
7x Snow-Covered Plains
2x Chronosavant
3x krosan grip
1x primal command
3x Eyes of the Wisent
3x quagnoth
2x Imperial Mask
I have absolutely no idea what the metagame is at the local magic store, but I have a feeling a lot of people are gonna jump on the tribal bandwagon so I think this will be a good deck to run.
Some of the decisions I made: +3 Oblivion Rings, -1 wrath of god, -2 chronosavants. This was done because I found the chronosavants were not really doing much of anything. Plus I feel that the oblivion rings will be great for both early board control, and will get rid of any nast enchantments/artifacts. Plus it helps against planeswalkers which will be great. Next I decided on 1 primal command and 2 gaea's blessings as opposed to one or the other: I figured this will help protect against extirpate, and mill (I would love a jace to mill me for 20, only to find a blessing in there :D). Finally, I really like story circles in this list: it totally messes up burn, and can stop pingers. Plus then I can start using dawn charms for other things (such as thoughtseize).
Now the sideboard is where I am really unsure. The chronosavants are there against discard, as well as the quagnoths and imperial masks (though the masks can double for burn). Primal command is there if I need it, eyes of the wisent against blue, and krosan grip against artifacts/enchantments. I dont know if I should put Hoofprints of the stag in there-I feel it would work very well, but I dont know what to take out (imperial masks?). Any suggestions would be great-I have really appreciated this thread, I just need to finalize things.
8 Snow-Covered Plains
6 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Island
3 Mouth of Ronom
3 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Dreadship Reef
Sweepers/Removal (9):
4 Wrath of God
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Sunscour
4 Howling Mine
4 Rites of Flourishing
Fog Effects (9):
4 Pollen Lullaby
4 Dawn Charm
1 Seht's Tiger
Random Tech (11):
4 Martyr of Sands
2 Extirpate
2 Angel's Grace
1 Feldon's Cane
1 Story Circle
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Quagnoth
3 Krosan Grip
3 Eyes of the Wisent
2 Sacred Mesa
2 Academy Ruins
1 Story Circle
My build - been having great success with it thus far even against an updated Boom/Bust Angelfire variant, MU Pickles, and all sorts of aggro (but that's a given). Way too tired to give detailed explanations on card choices, but feel free to ask and/or constructively criticize. I'll get back to you when I wake up.
Finally what in your deck has made control matches easier? I mean the real complaint of the deck is control, so if people really cracked down on the deck, and we made it so that it wasn't an instant loss against control that would be amazing (and would probably revive the deck). I think hoofprints of the stag might be the main card to do it (as it can be placed in the deck with minimal changes. What do you think?
Seht's Tiger plays as another fog effect, essentially. However, it can also kill a random Gaddock Teeg on the table if he's totally preventing a Wrath of God from being played. Look at it like this: GW player attacks with everything, desperately trying to push damage; flash in Seht's Tiger, declare protecting from green or whatever majority color they're attacking with; block Gaddock and kill it (not a lot of pump spells in decklists... GW player can't even play Stonewood Invocation to save his Gaddock!); Wrath of God or Sunscour on your next turn. Chances are they'll play a second Gaddock, it does happen, but there are also times when it won't. Aside from that, Seht's also becomes Dawn Charm #5 and Angel's Grace #3 (preventing lethal Consume Spirit/Fireball/whatever).
As for another way to managing control, I would rather play Sacred Mesa or Mobilization over Hoofprints mostly because the other two are not entirely dependent on drawing cards. Against a control matchup (especially game 2), it's very favorable for the Turbofog player to resolve this token producer early in order to apply increasingly fatal pressure on the control player. Sacred Mesa and Mobilization achieve this very well because you can make the tokens right away; Hoofprints of the Stag suffers from the fact that you have to wait for four draws until you get a large creature. There are times when a player won't see any Turbo pieces until later or won't be able to play any for a while or won't be able to resolve much at all, thereby limiting the effectiveness of Hoofprints. However, the control player is likely to have sided out creature control in game 2, allowing Turbo players to focus on simply generating all the tokens they need to win instead of actually playing Turbo (they could, if only to draw away counters from key spells, if they wanted).
I am not running this deck do to it being too well expect HOWEVER, the control matchup is pretty decent if you have tested the deck enough to know how to win it... since at most they are running 8 counters now and its not so much permission based control the deck can beat control better post lorwyn.
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
9 Snow-Covered Plains
6 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Mouth of Ronom
3 Terramorphic Expanse
Sweepers/Removal (9):
4 Wrath of God
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Sunscour
Turbo (8):
4 Howling Mine
4 Rites of Flourishing
4 Pollen Lullaby
4 Dawn Charm
1 Seht's Tiger
Random Tech (11):
4 Martyr of Sands
2 Extirpate
2 Angel's Grace
1 Feldon's Cane
1 Story Circle
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Quagnoth
4 Treetop Village
3 Krosan Grip
3 Mystic Enforcer
1 Story Circle
1 Chronosavant
- Removed Snow-Covered Island and Dreadship Reef because I found Academy Ruins so difficult to use. Also removed that land from the sideboard.
- Eyes of the Wisent was taken out simply because I couldn't find enough to play tonight.
+ Treetop Villages, Mystic Enforcers, and Quagnoths come in for the control matchup. "Man plan" along with the Mines and Rites provide us enough steam to power through the rest of the match.
+ Chronosavant for the mirror match. Skipping turns versus another Turbofog is great.
My four matches tonight - I'll just tell you now I dropped in the fifth.
Match 1: Ur Kithkin, match lost (win-loss-loss)
Game One: Powerful start of the typical Kithkin aggro archetype (nothing Turbofog can't handle), but drops a surprise with Bust of Boom/Bust and destroys all of my lands. I recover from having multiple Howling Mines and Rites of Flourishing sitting around and then receive the next surprise of Austere Command in the main. I recover after a lucky topdeck of Sunscour and a couple Extirpates, thus removing those big threats and winning me the game.
Game Two: Sided in another Story Circle. No Extirpates, no miracle recoveries - Boom/Bust and Austere Command is rape.
Game Three: Piss-poor draws. Gg'd.
Match 2: BG Elves, match draw (win-loss-draw)
Game One: It was almost painful to watch my opponent repeatedly attack into Dawn Charm and Pollen Lullaby, further setting herself up for multiple Wrath of God. No maindeck hate on her part, so this was practically a easy win.
Game Two: I'm about two turns away from my opponent decking due to both of us drawing six cards per turn, essentially a fresh hand. My Wrath had resolved on my previous turn but she then casts a slew of newer Elves and double Tarmogoyfs, enough power on the table to kill me in a single alpha strike. The sad part is that the Wrath was the last sweeper in my hand. Even sadder was that I had no fog effect left in hand. What's even worse is that even after drawing six cards on my own turn, I didn't find a single fog effect.
Game Three: Time ran out before we could even get a game going. Sigh. This is a matchup that should have been a buy for me, but fortune chose not to smile on me tonight.
Match 3: UBw Teachings, match loss (win-loss-loss)
Game One: I get an Extirpate on a his Teferi fairly early after I had shot it with a Mouth of Ronom, revealing to me that he played no permission except for a single Pact of Negation. It was not difficult to win afterwards despite my opponent being classified as the control player.
Game Two: Out of fear, I go with the "Man Plan" and side in tons of creatures to fight. Huge mistake. Another Extirpate on him reveals that there was little change in his deck makeup. It would have been another ridiculously easy win had I not changed my own deck.
Game Three: I hand him the game, not even bothering to play even though we had about 10 minutes left, because I thought that my friends and I were leaving to go eat somewhere since another friend and I thought everybody else had scrubbed out. I make the snap decision to give my opponent the win since I myself was very, very hungry.
Match 4: GWb Turbofog mirror, match win (win-win)
***This is the most retarded mirror match in recent Standard memory. If you thought a game of Martyr-Proclamation decks was bad ... well this is just as bad, too, if not worse, because you're just waiting for the other guy to deck. However, this might just be the FASTEST mirror match you'll ever see, hear, or read about.
Game One: ...it's not hard to imagine what happens. We both play Howling Mine and Rites of Flourishing and play through, drawing and drawing and drawing and drawing. An Extirpate on him reveals that he plays two Feldon's Cane, thus trumping my single copy and possibly leading to my loss. However, I figure that I can play around it by not playing lands in my graveyard through Crucible of Worlds so that when I do get to use my Cane, my library will be slightly bigger. So my second Extirpate goes off, thinning his deck and graveyard of four more cards, making deck ultimately smaller. He then activates his first Cane, reshuffling his graveyard and then discarding. After I activate my own Cane, I redraw an Extirpate and use it, again thinning his deck down a little more. A couple turns later, I'm down to two more turns of living and he's down to 3 cards, prompting him to use his second Cane. I draw my last full set of cards, play whatever, and pass the turn. He draws, though his deck was already so thin that the next turn would kill him, plays, then passes. On my upkeep, I play Angel's Grace, preventing me from losing by decking. He then decks on his draw step and loses. YES!
Game Two: Sideboarded in three Krosan Grip and one Chronosavant. Opening hand of one of each basic land type in the deck and a Krosan Grip and other things - I keep it thinking that his Rites or Mines will help me out later. I already knew I had won when he played a turn two Howling Mine and a third turn Feldon's Cane. On my third turn draw, I pick up an Extirpate. His fourth turn sees little action, but on my fourth turn and land drop I cast Krosan Grip on his Feldon's Cane and immediately Extirpate it as soon as I could. He scoops. Expressions of disbelief and awe was heard throughout the shop: a Turbofog mirror finishing on time! A mirror game finishing in less than three minutes!
My friends and I then decided to leave afterwards to grab some Jack in the Box and then head home.
Ultimately, I'm very happy with how Turbofog performed at my local shop - we have many highly skilled players to compete against. For it to do "well" now without advanced tweaking and playtesting bodes very well for me, in fact. I've never had significant playtesting time against all the types of decks out there, so I'll scratch up this shoddy performance to inexperience and lack of proper sideboarding wisdom (especially during the UBw match).
If you guys have any other tourney reports or experiences with Turbofog performance, please share it with the rest us. It would be a good way for other players to get a feel for how to work with the deck on a deeper level and prepare us for a more shifting Standard.