i love turbofog and i think odds are itll make some top occurrences, i agree the metagame seems right for it now. still imo it can only compete if it stays low profile because hating against turbofog is easy, strong enchantment/arti removal like return to dust. another problem is: how many people will actually decide that aggro is the best right now?
tarmorack really needs the mask out, otherwise they can just collect discard spells and bring them all out in one turn, hitting you for 6-9 with racks. unless you had a few martyr activations resolved that quickly kills you. ofc it cant kill you once your deck starts to work. but getting it to work is not that easy against tarmorack.
So then, what we're really talking about here is sideboard sculpting for competition. I've been toying around with it and I think I like the following: 3 X EotW (anti-control), 3 X Ajani Goldmane (catchall/anti-Tarmorack for the lifegain/ability to put a fatty in play if needed), 3 X Pithing Needle (too many activated abilities running around...), 3 X Story Circle (v. Red), 3 X Imperial Mask (v. TarmoRack again...v. Red as well).
How does that sound? Maybe get rid of the Ajani's for Disenchant effects? Just some thoughts...
As to the lifegain/resolving Martyr a couple of times...I've also gone to running a couple of Primal Commands in my build. It's +7 life and a method to ensure I don't deck myself all rolled into one..seems pretty solid in testing.
Why are you all running Horizon Canopy over Brushland? Isn't that draw option a BAD thing, considering how much you'll be drawing anyway? May as well pack something that doesn't hurt you if you only need 1.
Also, I've been looking for the slow control deck for Hoofprints of the Stag to run in, and here it is. Every turn late game is 2W: get a 4/4 flyer? Glorious!
Horizon Canopy is great.... yeah you are already drawing lots of cards, BUT what happens when you are missing a fog and they swing for lethal... it happens albeit rarely. In almost every possible situation a canopy is better than brushland.
what do we do if they pithing needle martyr like scoop er and i'm not sure but what do u guys think the best build is g/w or b/w/g, idk but i really like this for states think it'll go far, but i know i'll kinda hate playin it lol but who cares right lol whats a good decklist and sideboard
That seems like a ripoff. Why would anyone play that when the next spell you cast will make your opponents draw a bunch of cards? It does not even look good for mill decks.
this deck doesn't need or run off marties so if u think needle ruins you, you haven't played the deck enough. Chronosavant is pointless if your playing Jace and Forces and really not needed. Furthermore, if you think teachings box is dead you haven't tested it enough to know it's the best deck in the formant with endless loops of creature removal and Trisk FTW. Fog rolls over to TeachBox, past that, IDk anything else that really rapes this deck. Extirpate and anything taking away the draw engine usually beats this deck though. B/G discard isn't a fun matchup. After that, it's basically easy wins against anything else you can throw at it. I think this deck will do 5-3 or 6-2 at a states event which to some people is good enough.
this deck doesn't need or run off marties so if u think needle ruins you, you haven't played the deck enough. Chronosavant is pointless if your playing Jace and Forces and really not needed. Furthermore, if you think teachings box is dead you haven't tested it enough to know it's the best deck in the formant with endless loops of creature removal and Trisk FTW. Fog rolls over to TeachBox, past that, IDk anything else that really rapes this deck. Extirpate and anything taking away the draw engine usually beats this deck though. B/G discard isn't a fun matchup. After that, it's basically easy wins against anything else you can throw at it. I think this deck will do 5-3 or 6-2 at a states event which to some people is good enough.
So you're saying Teachings runs endless removal loops and Trisk for the win..which would make Teachings pretty much impotent against TurboFog. All those removal spells become dead cards, and Trisk never gets to deal damage. From what I've seen of the newer builds, most of the Teachings decks are running VERY heavy creature removal (Slaughter Pact, Terror, Damnation) while cutting back on the countermagic (some only running 8 or less counterspells..) So the new "TeachingsBox" decklist should be terrifically afraid of TurboFog..not the other way around.
As to the discard matchup...THAT's the tough one. We have Imperial Mask...and Primal Command...but that doesn't help if they Extirpate our Turbo engine. The only real chance there is to get the mask in ASAP and hopefully rely on your Martyrs and Commands to still let you deck the opponent. That's one more reason I like Ajani in the board..he at least gives you the ability to make a threat or two if he resolves..and he's one more BIG card the opponent has to consider Extirpating. Maybe Liliana in a deck that splashes B? (from the board again..of course..) The ability to use her big ability after a *** or Sunscour as a possible alternate win condition isn't bad against Discard/Tarmorack.
What are peoples records so far in testing, and with what list? ATM Im 5-3-0 with the list I posted recently. Will get 7 more matches added after the T2 tourney (there are 7 rounds ;)).
Oh, and to anyone not running martyr: Run it, or atleast consider it. It can provide a huge boost against aggro if your fogs run out and you need a turn to draw into one. This can give you the stability to pull that off.
Oh, and Hoofprint is great, often forcing players to scoop when its getting 5-7 counters/turn and i have tons of mana (somewhere around 15 sometimes).
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My build isn't running the Chronomantic/Chronosavant trick. I prefer the straight up Fog effects of Holy Day, Dawn Charm, Pollen Lullaby, and Darkness. And as to Blessing..I prefer Primal Command maindeck to Blessing. Primal lets me gain seven and shuffle my graveyard back into my library at will. Late game it just wrecks as you cast Primal EVERY turn (I run 3 maindeck..so I usually end up drawing into one with the nearly full Turbo engine in play every turn..) to gain 7 and put your graveyard back into your library. Same with Martyr here. If you get down to the nitty-gritty, chances are you can gain 50-60 life/turn with a couple of Martyrs lategame.
problem with that is you have a number of cards which are pretty bad unless you have another narrow card out. Really, with all the draw, you will have plenty of stall without having to resort to slow, clunky combos. Most of the fighting is done early anyway, when you need the cheap effects to keep you afloat. After you have wrathed the board with a few card drawers down, the other guy probably won't be able to break through the defenses, especially if you bust out some story circles (which are a 4 of in my MD).
Does no one but me see the beauty of Force Fruition? I geuss its win more, but it has to have an answer immediately or there gonna be toast from there out.
Force Fruition is good but it would require you to put blue in your deck and you wouldnt' get as many useful cards out of blue. Maybe some counters but they will stop only one card where as you could Holy day one turn the Wrath the next. Blue isn't that great for deck out unless you are running fast mill.
So, what's the best tactic for beating turbofog?
Feldon's cane/Primal Command in game 1?
Mill?
Another Turbofog deck?
the best answer is probably either primal command, running a tempo-based aggro (such as blink.dec), getting the pickles lock (with the exception of the chronosavant/cronomatic escape 'combo'), countering the 'fog' effects on an alpha strike, or even using card draw, such as careful consideration, in order to make them draw out before you do. also, *super-secret tech here* chronotog totem :p.
Or you could just use Jace...... It's not like blue is an awesome color for a "don't lose the game" deck or anything... And I hear Cryptic Command usually fogs your opponents just as well as lullaby or dawn charm(or holy day, if you absolutely have to run it). And on the topic of amazing fog effects, Evacuation works pretty well too. Don't take this as criticism, as obviously I haven't tested nearly enough matchups in this new format, but I think UW has better options available to it for a "Hold it, Hold it, You lose" type deck. The only reason to use black seems to be for Extirpate, as white already has 12 effective wrath effects and 12+ holy day effects. Hell, I'd recommend trying this deck in mono-white if it weren't for the fact that Jace was a win condition in addition to being Howling Mines #5-8. There's also the fact that your billion fog effects actually help Jace do what he's supposed to do. Anyway, my 2 cents. Let playtesting reveal what it shall.
Either way, the reason to splash another color in this deck would be because it would include the best cards available, not necessarily just the best available splash. It's not like getting 1UU on turn 3 or 1UUU on turn 4 in a strictly Blue-White deck is that hard... just because we can't play with Rav Duals doesn't mean that the manafixing we're left with is less effective. The best deck in my opinion looks to be the Green splash for Rites(because, obviously, more mana for the control deck is always best), but I just can't see any other green cards helping the deck that much. Most especially not if your alternative is that you forego Exploration for a more easily protected win condition(Jace) that does the same thing. And lets face it, Extirpate isn't nearly as effective in our deck as it is against us. And when you get down to it, having Jace in your deck is almost always going to be more effective than being able to rely on Gaea's Blessing or Feldon's Cane...
EDIT: Er... i guess we agree on extirpate's merits in this deck, disregard my comment. :/
Btw, playing blue also opens up Teferi's Moat as a possible SB(maybe even MD) card...
Right now, I think the two worst matchups for this deck are permission and discard. I've made my board nearly transformative v. control..boarding in 3 X EotW and 3 X Hoofprints of the Stag. It goes from trying to outright deck the opponent to using the Turbo engine to fuel Hoofprints (and hopefully your opponent boarded out their ***/Damnations and you can catch them napping...) Vs.Discard I think we're just left trying to nail down a quick Imperial Mask...I wish there was a better option..but I just don't see it. Discard gives this deck fits all day long. Sure..we can use our Dawn Charms to help ward some of it off...but there's not much you can do if you're holding an Imperial Mask in your opening hand (or in the first few turns...) and they Thoughtseize you. I think it's just a matchup you hope to eeek out the first game and play through stalling the second...hoping that time runs out on the match...;). lol Also..another thought...Jester's Scepter. It "steals" 5 cards from your opponent (so it helps with decking them) AND it neutralizes at least a couple of their spells by countering them. What are your thoughts? Board or Maindeck? 2of, 3of, 4of?
I brought this deck to an FNM last week, repacing Oblivion Ring with Faith's Fetters. In terms of matchups, I didn't particuarly learn anything new about matchups except that this deck auto-wins against dredge, we have a game versus project X, and that we should be happy that Puetrify and Mortify are rotating out. Great info, huh?
But from playing the deck, I realized a few things:
Chronomatic Escape is a house. With one, unless they counter it or run Riftsweeper/Pull from Eternity (of which Control is a bad matchup, and Riftsweeper lets you get it back later), it basically draws you a fog every three turns. With two, they only get one attack every three turns, and with all three, they get locked out of attacking completely. Using it with Chronosavant is a cute trick, but I think Escape is just fine on it's own.
Jester's Scepter is decent. Not something I want to see early, but it does get better as the game goes on. One neat trick I enjoyed pulling off was when I got enchantment/artifact removal under the scepter, I'd try to counter some random spell - it didn't matter what - by dropping the removal into my opponent's graveyard, and then immediately extirpate it. Sure, I'd fail to counter the spell (I mean, who cares about Tarmogoyf with a Wrath and Holy Day in hand?), but I'd remove their removal before they could use it.
Footprints and Eyes seem like decent sideboard cards - how are they working out, Austin?
Hoofprints and Eyes v. Control are houses, especially if you draw the Eyes opening hand. Dropping the Eyes first (turn 2) protects you when you drop your Hoofprints (hopefully turn 3..lol). And then it just becomes an "I dare you" game. Again..you hope you catch your opponent with their pants down (one of mine decided he didn't need *** game 2 because I wasn't running creatures...;) ) At worst, they're two more threats your opponent has to worry about/deal with on the way to decking them.
I'm finding MD O-rings to be very useful. Control has few win conditions, and you can either snap them up early, or force them to hold back to protect it, which puts them closer to being shut out.
Ring is also needed against gaddock teeg. Most of the defenses for him are anti burn or destory. You can usually hold with fog for a turn or two while you get a ring to deal with him, but if he lingers more than a few turns, you get very close to losing.
Snow version is essential, since we need to have mouth against teferi.
Hoofprints and eyes are certainly strong vs. control. I really think we have sideboard room to load up on them, since we can just stand pat vs. aggro.
the mirror? Seems like this thread is taking off and I can't see a good way to win against another. Also Merfolk mill crushes this deck, I would think.
You don't really need to worry about mill. Since this deck runs Gaea's Blessing and/or Primal Command, it's very hard for them to mill you to death. As for the mirror, if you're straight :symg:/:symw: then I don't think it will come down to anything other then Luck, Build (ie. MD Primal Commands), and/or abusing the clock. Still, if you want to have a better time in that match up, splashing B for Extirpate seems like a sound plan...
~Nim
PS. @ Mikey k159: Why do you say Primal Command is better game one? I'm having a hard time thinking of decks I would face that it means anything against game one (the mirror being the main exception that comes to mind). Are there other decks you're thinking of?
how does this deck beat black anyway? the more i play the more i notice black kiss are a** hard
Well, Extirpate isn't a very common MD or SB card atm (or, at least, pre-LOR it wasn't) and, other then that one card, I guess I would just treat them like a more difficult Tarmo deck (ie. with discard... I assume it would be a Tarmo Deck yes?)... I guess, maybe, I don't understand what you mean?
Though this seems like a place where Story Circle could work well, seeing as they run a fair number less creatures then most weenie decks...
~Nim
So then, what we're really talking about here is sideboard sculpting for competition. I've been toying around with it and I think I like the following: 3 X EotW (anti-control), 3 X Ajani Goldmane (catchall/anti-Tarmorack for the lifegain/ability to put a fatty in play if needed), 3 X Pithing Needle (too many activated abilities running around...), 3 X Story Circle (v. Red), 3 X Imperial Mask (v. TarmoRack again...v. Red as well).
How does that sound? Maybe get rid of the Ajani's for Disenchant effects? Just some thoughts...
As to the lifegain/resolving Martyr a couple of times...I've also gone to running a couple of Primal Commands in my build. It's +7 life and a method to ensure I don't deck myself all rolled into one..seems pretty solid in testing.
Cheers,
Austin
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Horizon Canopy is great.... yeah you are already drawing lots of cards, BUT what happens when you are missing a fog and they swing for lethal... it happens albeit rarely. In almost every possible situation a canopy is better than brushland.
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give me a good solid build that i can play around so i can build it for a tourny thats coming up
and what are the staples and why are u guys playing chronosavant?
what is it good for?
So you're saying Teachings runs endless removal loops and Trisk for the win..which would make Teachings pretty much impotent against TurboFog. All those removal spells become dead cards, and Trisk never gets to deal damage. From what I've seen of the newer builds, most of the Teachings decks are running VERY heavy creature removal (Slaughter Pact, Terror, Damnation) while cutting back on the countermagic (some only running 8 or less counterspells..) So the new "TeachingsBox" decklist should be terrifically afraid of TurboFog..not the other way around.
As to the discard matchup...THAT's the tough one. We have Imperial Mask...and Primal Command...but that doesn't help if they Extirpate our Turbo engine. The only real chance there is to get the mask in ASAP and hopefully rely on your Martyrs and Commands to still let you deck the opponent. That's one more reason I like Ajani in the board..he at least gives you the ability to make a threat or two if he resolves..and he's one more BIG card the opponent has to consider Extirpating. Maybe Liliana in a deck that splashes B? (from the board again..of course..) The ability to use her big ability after a *** or Sunscour as a possible alternate win condition isn't bad against Discard/Tarmorack.
Cheers,
Austin
Oh, and to anyone not running martyr: Run it, or atleast consider it. It can provide a huge boost against aggro if your fogs run out and you need a turn to draw into one. This can give you the stability to pull that off.
Oh, and Hoofprint is great, often forcing players to scoop when its getting 5-7 counters/turn and i have tons of mana (somewhere around 15 sometimes).
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UB Classical Faeries UB
Cheers,
Austin
Force Fruition is good but it would require you to put blue in your deck and you wouldnt' get as many useful cards out of blue. Maybe some counters but they will stop only one card where as you could Holy day one turn the Wrath the next. Blue isn't that great for deck out unless you are running fast mill.
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Feldon's cane/Primal Command in game 1?
Mill?
Another Turbofog deck?
the best answer is probably either primal command, running a tempo-based aggro (such as blink.dec), getting the pickles lock (with the exception of the chronosavant/cronomatic escape 'combo'), countering the 'fog' effects on an alpha strike, or even using card draw, such as careful consideration, in order to make them draw out before you do. also, *super-secret tech here* chronotog totem :p.
Have/Want List
EDIT: Er... i guess we agree on extirpate's merits in this deck, disregard my comment. :/
Btw, playing blue also opens up Teferi's Moat as a possible SB(maybe even MD) card...
Have/Want List
Cheers,
Austin
3 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Arctic Flats
2 Caves of Koilos
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
9 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Holy Day
4 Dawn Charm
3 Chronomatic Escape
4 Rites of Flourishing
2 Sunscour
3 Wrath of God
3 Faith's Fetters
3 Jester's Scepter
3 Extirpate
2 Story Circle
15 Mostly irrelevant cards
But from playing the deck, I realized a few things:
Chronomatic Escape is a house. With one, unless they counter it or run Riftsweeper/Pull from Eternity (of which Control is a bad matchup, and Riftsweeper lets you get it back later), it basically draws you a fog every three turns. With two, they only get one attack every three turns, and with all three, they get locked out of attacking completely. Using it with Chronosavant is a cute trick, but I think Escape is just fine on it's own.
Jester's Scepter is decent. Not something I want to see early, but it does get better as the game goes on. One neat trick I enjoyed pulling off was when I got enchantment/artifact removal under the scepter, I'd try to counter some random spell - it didn't matter what - by dropping the removal into my opponent's graveyard, and then immediately extirpate it. Sure, I'd fail to counter the spell (I mean, who cares about Tarmogoyf with a Wrath and Holy Day in hand?), but I'd remove their removal before they could use it.
Footprints and Eyes seem like decent sideboard cards - how are they working out, Austin?
Cheers,
Austin
Ring is also needed against gaddock teeg. Most of the defenses for him are anti burn or destory. You can usually hold with fog for a turn or two while you get a ring to deal with him, but if he lingers more than a few turns, you get very close to losing.
Snow version is essential, since we need to have mouth against teferi.
Hoofprints and eyes are certainly strong vs. control. I really think we have sideboard room to load up on them, since we can just stand pat vs. aggro.
so:
4 rites of flourishing
4 wrath of god
4 story circle
4 martyr of sands
4 dawn charm
4 holy day
2 pollen lulaby
2 sunscour
4 oblivion ring
1 primal command
2 flagstones of trokair
2 horizion canopy
4 brushland
2 arctic flats
3 snow covered forest
7 snow covered plains
3 eyes of the wisent
3 hoofprints of the stag
4 quagnoth
1 primal command
2 chronosavant
2 krosan grip
G/W TurboFog
4x Howling Mine
Creatures:
2x Chronosavant
4x Martyr of Sands
Enchantments:
3x Story Circle
4x Rites of Flourishing
Instants:
4x Holy Day
4x Dawn Charm
4x Pollen Lullaby
2x Sunscour
4x Wrath of God
3x Gaea's Blessing
Lands:
4x Brushland
4x Arctic Flats
4x Horizon Canopy
3x Mouth of Ronom
7x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Quagnoth
3x Oblivion Ring
2x Primal Command
3x Eyes of the Wisent
3x Hoofprints of the Stag
Though sadly I'll need to wait until the end of the month for LOR on MtGO.
Ah well...
~Nim
~Nim
PS. @ Mikey k159: Why do you say Primal Command is better game one? I'm having a hard time thinking of decks I would face that it means anything against game one (the mirror being the main exception that comes to mind). Are there other decks you're thinking of?
1 Vivid Grove
3 Mouth of Ronom
9 Snow-covered Plains
5 Snow-covered Forest
1 Snow-covered Swamp
4 Holy Day
4 Dawn Charm
4 Pollen Lullaby
4 Wrath of God
2 Gaea's Blessing
1 Beacon of Immortality
3 Extirpate
4 Rites of Flourishing
3 Oblivion Ring
On a path toward Legacy.
Well, Extirpate isn't a very common MD or SB card atm (or, at least, pre-LOR it wasn't) and, other then that one card, I guess I would just treat them like a more difficult Tarmo deck (ie. with discard... I assume it would be a Tarmo Deck yes?)... I guess, maybe, I don't understand what you mean?
Though this seems like a place where Story Circle could work well, seeing as they run a fair number less creatures then most weenie decks...
~Nim