Contraband Kingpin is a neat card for this list. What would you take out for it in the main? remember what other decks are currently in the meta. Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet HAS to remain as a 2 of in the main.
Also, I would say this creature would be only sideboard tech against aggressive decks only tbh. The scry is nice, but as someone said. If your untapping with a Summonings on the board. You are far enough ahead already that this creature isn't helping that much.
Is the thief worth it in tower-less builds? I'm inclined to say no, but then again one flash block and it's an extra card off of glimmer (assuming it's still alive). I wonder if Contraband Kingpin is worth it in Summonings decks since that's now a body and a scry one tacked on to every instant or sorcery
Contraband Kingpin is a neat card for this list. What would you take out for it in the main? remember what other decks are currently in the meta. Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet HAS to remain as a 2 of in the main.
Also, I would say this creature would be only sideboard tech against aggressive decks only tbh. The scry is nice, but as someone said. If your untapping with a Summonings on the board. You are far enough ahead already that this creature isn't helping that much.
I think that, yes, Thief only comes on for one match-up, and that's aggro. Don't forget though that Kingpin has lifelink... In both cases though, its main role is as a blocker for a 3 power creature. I don't think it matters whether you have a Tower in the list, as if you're accruing energy, you just tap EOT to draw. If you're not accruing, then it's the same as Kingpin. As for what to take out, have a look at the CFB article where Fortanely talks about his sideboard plan. His list has 10 cards coming in for aggro, and I think my list has it up to 12. The plan becomes not to counter every threat, but to kill every threat and only worry about unkillable things (like walkers).
atakusai, please have a look at how to use deck tags. It'll make it easier for others to read your decks. An easy way to learn how to do it is to quote someone's post that has a deck list and see how it is laid out. Also, you have 2 Council of the Absolute in your sideboard, which are not standard legal. Did you mean Authority of the Consuls?
He specifically calls out that control is in a rough spot
I'm actually inclined to disagree... sort of. I think non-black control is in a bad spot, as a lot of their removal is damage dependent, and is therefore poor against creatures that can get out of range quickly, or against 'walkers. I feel that we as UB players are in a spot much similar to when I started playing, where UB has more unconditional removal, and is favoured against green-based decks, marginal against combo, and weak pre-board against aggro. Post-board, we can bring in more removal, let them flood out, and take over the game. Our big problem right now is recursion, so if we can find ways to adapt to that (be it Kalitas, Complete Disregard, etc), then we may actually be in good shape.
I just want to add to this. U/B has some really efficient answers in the format right now. A card I'm considering is Select for Inspection which I think got a little better with out smuggler's copter, because there's no more free loot for letting a creature attack, it can hedge against recursion, and it can bounce a large creature that can get countered when they replay at later points in the game. Heck it can even buy a turn dealing with Gideon, giving you time to get a counter spell ready for him. between inspection, dead weight, fatal push, Grasp of Darkness, and if you're splashing white fragmentize, there are some very cheap, very effective answers to aggro available to us.
There was a straight U/B control that made day 2 at the tour, and they had Flaying Tendrils in the side over Yahenni's Expertise which I found very surprising, but is probably really good against a field of Scrapheap Scrounger and a hedge against most aggro, killing a good portion of creatures, and coming down early enough to be relevant. Kalitas and Tendrils could be good enough to deal with scrounger, and any other zombie shenanigans.
Also, the day 2 list ran 4 Evolving Wilds which I think serve 2 purposes, reshuffling cards scry'ed to bottom, and turning on fatal push a little more consistently. I kind of like this decision over 4 copies of boneyard.
I think most of the U/B lists right now are geared up to just feast on the more mid range G/B/x decks and Saheeli Jeskai. Without worrying about Emrakul now I just love to sit there and grind away on these G/B delirium rock decks, it's a lot of fun. Also 6-7 counterspells main deck, with more in the SB, means Jeskai Saheeli is going to have a rough matchup. If vehicles is a large portion of the meta then making the deck more lean in the 75 is entirely possible, but I kind of doubt vehicles will remain such a large portion of the meta.
I actually really think the cat combo will go on to be a staple in this standard. It reminds me of aetherworks marvel decks last pro tour. The deck was supposed to be broken, but got destroyed at the tournament because of blue based counterspells deck that showed up, and had really bad results. Same deal with cat combo, supposed to be broken, but gets run over by the vehicle decks that show up, and has a bad showing. broken decks are broken and have a way of surfacing to tier 1 during the standard season.
I also thought really hard about running Evolving Wilds as a 4 of in this list. Only scrying my list does is from the Glimmer. I noticed the pro-tour version also ran Anticipates. I just don't see room or need in my list for this card. Arguments can be made to run 2-3 copies in every blue deck. I am just not sold on it yet.
I am not a fan of that card. Grip of Desolation is seeing some play. Hard to find places for these cards if you still want to run 2 Kalitas and 2 Summonings in the main.
For a creature at 1U I think I would rather run Thing in the Ice
Regarding Select for Inspection, I was on Pacification Array but switched over to Take into Custody and really liked it. Tapping down any creature at the combat step before declare attackers takes that creature out of the fight for two attack phases. Select for Inspection offers the scry which is cool. But so many creatures have ETB that I chose TiC.
There is also Disperse as a crafty way to deal with other permanents. Including planeswalkers, enchantments, and Ormendahl, Profane Prince. I have even used it to bounce my own T-Hulk back to hand when targeted for termination.
Kalitas is AN answer, not the only answer. It all comes down to how you want your deck to play. I find Kalitas to be a more proactive response to GY recursion, but it leaves you open to a response if you have to tap out for it. For example, tapping out T4 leaves them a window to drop a T4/5 Gideon, which we have very few answers to. Playing something like Complete Disregard hits everything in the main board of Vehicles, plus everything other than Demon and Gearhulk in Top 8 GB list, and allows us to be more reactive. Just my 2c worth...
FWIW, I think I'm going to run this list for the week (and game day). Transgress main are now extra Spell Shrivels, and the one in the side becomes a Disregard. One Expertise and two Tendrils side as well, although that may switch to 2/1 if I'm seeing more GW Tokens.
How are you finding that amount of permission? It seems a little excessive to me. Just because whenever I play with that many I get stuck looking at a threat and only drawing counters.
EDIT: Would you also bring in Tendrils vs the bg decks running Scrounger?
EDIT 2: @airgaps, what's your current list looking like?
For a creature at 1U I think I would rather run Thing in the Ice
Regarding Select for Inspection, I was on Pacification Array but switched over to Take into Custody and really liked it. Tapping down any creature at the combat step before declare attackers takes that creature out of the fight for two attack phases. Select for Inspection offers the scry which is cool. But so many creatures have ETB that I chose TiC.
There is also Disperse as a crafty way to deal with other permanents. Including planeswalkers, enchantments, and Ormendahl, Profane Prince. I have even used it to bounce my own T-Hulk back to hand when targeted for termination.
Disperse is (-) negative on Card Advantage, I don't understand why we would play this. If the goal of a control deck is to 1 for 1 netting 0 on CA, then using a card that essentially puts you down a card and doesn't cantrip/replace itself is a no go. Cards like Brutal Expulsion see play in other control decks because it bounces a creature and can exile a troublesome 2 drops creature like Scrounger. I don't like Expulsion, but it's a tempo based card and damage spell tacked on.
When building a control deck to attack the meta, we have to look at the current 3 decks that are tier 1.
Mardu Vehicles
G/B Sneks/ Delirium
Copy Cat
Each of those decks require specific answers, and tailoring a deck to beat each of those is not currently feasible. It's much easier to target Vehicles and G/B because B removal is unconditional. The merits of playing B/x based control decks is the ability to just out right remove a creature from the battlefield.
When looking at "how to beat" each deck we have to chose a removal suite that is effective against at least 2 of those decks and accept that one of the G1 match ups will be rough. The main issues in Vehciles:
Scrapheap Scrounger is cast on T2 or T3 and already Net +1 for our opponent unless with have a removal spell that exiles it. If we don't have that kind of removal it will eat a removal spell, netting it's +1 on top netting card advantage on the battlefield by crewing a Heart of Kiran or whatever other vehicle is on the board. That alone is already Net +2, over the course of the game (Vs Vehicles) this card alone is like a 4 for 1. When these comes down in multiple it's almost impossible to handle the card outside of blocking it with Gearhulk or some tokens generated from Kalitas or Summoning's. The issue compounded VS Vehicles with cards like Gideon which if resolved is yet another 2 for 1, sometimes 3 for 1, sometimes that card resolves and you lose. The added angle of Gideon being able to come down, make a dude, crew a heart, and still swing at you with a 4/4 flying vigilance is really good against control.
Think of the early game plan, 1 for 1, hope our draw lines up with the aggro deck (vehicles) and hope we have the correct answer? Our only method of generating + positive card advantage and getting ahead on the board is with Kalitas and Summoning's. Gearhulk is great, but generally acts as a stabilizer for our deck. Casting gearhulk is Net +1 because we are getting a free spell of him, it gets MUCH better if we glimmer and go up 3 cards, then it's a blowout. This isn't the case anymore, most of the time the 1st gearhulk is cast to cast a removal spell, in that case we kill "x" creature and try to block another (usually it's here when we lose out first gearhulk). WHat U/B needs mid-late is a solid game plan that will go over the top. Hence, Summonings, but it's our early interaction which suffers early, and the lack of a "good" and effective sweeper like effect that handles the board state regardless of the artifacts that are left over.
Why we are "great" against G/B is because we can 1 for 1 them, hence we net 0 and once we get to Glimmer/ Gearhulk range we start going up on cards. Vs Saheeli G1's it's hard because our main deck is configured in such a way that responding to and disrupting the combo isn't feasible G1. We're not MD Transgress so our only 2 methods of disruption are
Removal
Permission.
Not the best ways to fight Saheeli G1, and if it's the 4c version it's much harder to beat actually. Many of the guys I play with are in the mastermind (Travis Woo's group), and are RPTQ qualified players (and former Pro Tour Competitors), and I ask them for sincere advice. I like their honesty even though hearing sucks. here's what they said --->" You can beat certain decks if you target them, but there will be tier 2 decks that thrash you because of the amount of Shenanigans currently going on. Control doesn't pile on the pressure early, so VS Saheeli G1 you're not that favored, VS g/b you're good, but VS vehicles? Can you actually remove every single thing they play? What about the left over Vehicles? What about Scrounger coming beck?"
All good observations from them, I didn't have answers to these questions.
The Sultai Delirium list that went 8-2 is actually well set up to fight G/B and Saheeli, but not Vehicles:
I dislike Green, I just...ugh. But maybe this is the route to go with for control right now. This deck solves many of our problems, it has a way of getting on the board and leveraging powerful spells to go over the top of G/B aggro/Midrange. It also fights Saheeli well. It's slow, and probably needs updating for the new "aggro" meta (I'm guessing this guy beat more than a few vehicles), but it's worth looking at control a new way to build control for this meta. U/B can be good, but vehicles presents an asymmetrical board state that will cause us to fall behind in the long run, in the end they actually out card advantage the control deck.
I was thinking of using Expertise, but looking at my sideboarding notes, I really think that Tendrils is still a better option, just to be able to get rid of Scroungers and the like against aggro (and maybe BG if they are over-running me). It may be right to run an Expertise main, and two Tendrils in the side, or some such mix. The BG matchup I played list night I lost, but had to scoop G1 after drawing nothing but tap lands, Summonings did its thing G2, and I got hit with a T3 and T4 Lost Legacy, neutering my Glimmer and my counter spells. He just got very lucky with having both come up, he admitted.
Also, I was pleasantly surprised with Aether Thief last night, and he did draw me some cards, but more importantly, he tended to draw removal in some decks, which meant Gearhulks were more likely to stick around. I'm thinking of running two Transgress in the side, mainly to hit the larger threats in BG, but also to deal with their Scroungers (but not for aggro). Could these be Lost Legacies instead? Yes, I know they don't hit the Scrounger, but would certainly give flexibility...
Based on the way the deck played last night, here's the latest iteration...
I kind of disagree with some points you made. First, how does a scrapheap crewing Heart of Kiran net a +1 card advantage?
Maybe it's play styles, but I disagree with how you characterize the matchup versus vehicles. First and foremost I think the MU comes down entirely too much on a coin flip. If I'm on the play G1, I think I'm slightly favored against vehicles for the best of 3, on the draw and they are heavily favored. You seem very focused on card advantage when my experience with playing against the deck is it all comes down to speed. If I can keep a high enough life total by the time I get to the 6+ mana position I pretty much have the game a lock. When I lose, it's usually a turn 4-5 kill and I have a disallow and glimmer in hand and can't stop the tide. Often times too I'm able to land the turn 6 Gearhulk, but it's still too late, and even though I can 3 or 4 for 1 them with my Gearhulk turn, they can chip in the last few points of damage and finish me with an unlicensed, or they can get the extra attacker to finish me next turn.
The real problem against vehicles, as I see it, is our deck is full of these 3 cmc unconditional removals and counters; murder, ruinous path, disallow, etc... If the vehicles player is on the play and has 1 drop into 2 drop into 1 and 2 drop, and your durdling with tap lands and have a fist full of 3 cmc spells, you're going to loose that game, and what's worse, if you are running a sweeper, your turn 3-4 sweeper only hits half their permanents, completely ignoring Gideon and Heart. It was a little different in the mono white humans / languish days, because you could afford to loose the early tempo, and let the white weenie player run rampant just jamming cheap creatures on the board, because you knew on turn 4 EVERYTHING would die. Not the case against vehicles, so without a sweeper and with so many 3 cmc removals, it's no wonder we get run over so much. I have no problems loosing some card advantage to scrapheap if it buys me time and tempo. In the long run, I know I will have the card advantage, and once I stabilize with Gearhulks in play and have flashbacked a glimmer, the game is pretty much a lock. The trick is surviving long enough to get to that point. Like I said in my earlier post I think this comes down to having a high concentration of 1-2 mana spells that can effectively interact with the deck, and buy time until we have enough mana to stabilize. I've decked myself several times with U/B and 4 Gearhulks, 4 Glimmers, and 3 anticipates is enough gas to keep the deck going to the end, so I don't really overly worry about running out of cards.
Also, I love Shielded Aether Thief as the creature slot in the side, almost entirely because of flash. I am starting to hate Kalitas, again, because I feel like everytime I jam him on turn 4, hoping to stabalize, he eats an unlicensed D and I take 9 the next turn, or else the opponent lands a Gideon. I'd rather just keep my mana up when I'm at 4 lands rather than Jam Kalitas.
Last season I had decent success against aggro vehicle decks when I cast a turn 3 Flaying Tendrils taking out a Scrounger and another creature or two. The opponent usually never recovered from that because I could follow up with Horribly Awry, Void Shatter, Grasp
I could see a deck list looking some thing like this
Those Take into Custody may be jank, but it is way easier to Push one threat and lock down another for two turns than to Murder one. Custody buys you time.
Along the same lines, why not Select for Inspection. It ties up a threat for two turns, and also gives a scry...
kpal said earlier that there are a lot of creatures with ETB effects, and I agree. However, Select for Inspection is pretty rough on vehicles if you're not going the Fragmentize route.
Along the same lines, why not Select for Inspection. It ties up a threat for two turns, and also gives a scry...
kpal said earlier that there are a lot of creatures with ETB effects, and I agree. However, Select for Inspection is pretty rough on vehicles if you're not going the Fragmentize route.
Along the same lines, why not Select for Inspection. It ties up a threat for two turns, and also gives a scry...
kpal said earlier that there are a lot of creatures with ETB effects, and I agree. However, Select for Inspection is pretty rough on vehicles if you're not going the Fragmentize route.
If you're running an array of counter spells, negate, disallow, horribly awry, etc... then I think inspection is equal to custody in terms of how limited it is. Bouncing an 8/8 verderous gearhulk to buy time to get your disallow seems fine to me. Think of it like this, bouncing a creature means removal and counter spells are now viable to permanently deal with it, whereas tapping it down means only removal is capable of dealing with it. I still haven't tested it yet so there's a very real chance inspection is garbage, but I think the tempo it gains against vehicles would be big, and the scry I'd view as .5 card advantage, so I view it as a loss of .5 of a card for a fairly decent tempo gain.
EDIT: Also, bouncing is a LOT more preferable to tap down against vehicles, becuase they can respond to a tap down by crewing a vehicle. Bouncing a creature lets you wait for opponent to actually declare attackers before you cast
Also, I love Shielded Aether Thief as the creature slot in the side, almost entirely because of flash. I am starting to hate Kalitas, again, because I feel like everytime I jam him on turn 4, hoping to stabalize, he eats an unlicensed D and I take 9 the next turn, or else the opponent lands a Gideon. I'd rather just keep my mana up when I'm at 4 lands rather than Jam Kalitas.
You've sold me! I started running Fathom Feeder, which is ok, but the ability hold up mana and flash on the opponents turn gives us the ability to see if we want to counter something instead, and provides an energy sink to draw cards, and dodges a lot of the damage based removal in the format. I love the flash it in, block, get an energy, they Shock after combat, tap in response to draw a card play. So much value for two mana!
Going along with the Thief, what about Aether meltdown? It was mentioned in a 10 underplayed cards list as specifically good for us against vehicles/scrounger, so that sounds like it's worth consideration (again, since I think it came up before).
Also, went through the sideboard game and came up with the following. Not sure how it'll change if I swap sideboard pieces obviously
Saheeli Twin
In:
2x Dispel
1x Lost Legacy
1x Murder
1x Negate
1x Sphinx of the Final Word
2x To the Slaughter
Out:
2x Fatal Push
1x Grasp
2x Void Shatter
1x Glimmer
1x Anticipate
1x Gearhulk
R/G Energy
In:
2x Dispel
2x Fathom Feeder
1x Lost Legacy (Hydra is probably worth it, right? Or a pump spell or other troublesome non-pummeler creature)
1x Murder
2x Yahenni's Expertise (maybe?)
Out:
3x Ruinous Path
1x Glimmer
1x Anticipate
1x Negate
1x Void Shatter
1x Gearhulk
One thing I noticed is I'm semi-consistently pulling out card draw/gearhulk number 4 for more removal/permission. Is that dumb or am I doing that right?
I think your thought process is correct. For reference, I'm running Esper. Having said that, I'm starting with 3 GH and 3 Glimmer main and one each in the side. I went from 4 Anticipate to 2 and I'm loaded on early interaction. I run 3 Fumigate in the sideboard and against GB Snake I'm all about living until I can cast it post board and then mopping up with Metallurgic tokens. I'll post the list I'm going to run at the PPTQ this weekend for sideboard feedback later today.
Edit: I see the Aether Meltdown synergy but it seems somewhat reliant on having a Thief in play for "full value". In my mind we're playing Control and not Tempo, so while that doesn't exclude tempo plays, they need to clearly stand on their own from a value perspective. We're going to be reactive, so being reliant on chaining together the perfect combination of cards should be avoided, which is what put me off Yahenni's Expertise; I was so excited about that one until I starting playing it!
Also, I would say this creature would be only sideboard tech against aggressive decks only tbh. The scry is nice, but as someone said. If your untapping with a Summonings on the board. You are far enough ahead already that this creature isn't helping that much.
I just want to add to this. U/B has some really efficient answers in the format right now. A card I'm considering is Select for Inspection which I think got a little better with out smuggler's copter, because there's no more free loot for letting a creature attack, it can hedge against recursion, and it can bounce a large creature that can get countered when they replay at later points in the game. Heck it can even buy a turn dealing with Gideon, giving you time to get a counter spell ready for him. between inspection, dead weight, fatal push, Grasp of Darkness, and if you're splashing white fragmentize, there are some very cheap, very effective answers to aggro available to us.
There was a straight U/B control that made day 2 at the tour, and they had Flaying Tendrils in the side over Yahenni's Expertise which I found very surprising, but is probably really good against a field of Scrapheap Scrounger and a hedge against most aggro, killing a good portion of creatures, and coming down early enough to be relevant. Kalitas and Tendrils could be good enough to deal with scrounger, and any other zombie shenanigans.
Also, the day 2 list ran 4 Evolving Wilds which I think serve 2 purposes, reshuffling cards scry'ed to bottom, and turning on fatal push a little more consistently. I kind of like this decision over 4 copies of boneyard.
I think most of the U/B lists right now are geared up to just feast on the more mid range G/B/x decks and Saheeli Jeskai. Without worrying about Emrakul now I just love to sit there and grind away on these G/B delirium rock decks, it's a lot of fun. Also 6-7 counterspells main deck, with more in the SB, means Jeskai Saheeli is going to have a rough matchup. If vehicles is a large portion of the meta then making the deck more lean in the 75 is entirely possible, but I kind of doubt vehicles will remain such a large portion of the meta.
I actually really think the cat combo will go on to be a staple in this standard. It reminds me of aetherworks marvel decks last pro tour. The deck was supposed to be broken, but got destroyed at the tournament because of blue based counterspells deck that showed up, and had really bad results. Same deal with cat combo, supposed to be broken, but gets run over by the vehicle decks that show up, and has a bad showing. broken decks are broken and have a way of surfacing to tier 1 during the standard season.
Regarding Select for Inspection, I was on Pacification Array but switched over to Take into Custody and really liked it. Tapping down any creature at the combat step before declare attackers takes that creature out of the fight for two attack phases. Select for Inspection offers the scry which is cool. But so many creatures have ETB that I chose TiC.
There is also Disperse as a crafty way to deal with other permanents. Including planeswalkers, enchantments, and Ormendahl, Profane Prince. I have even used it to bounce my own T-Hulk back to hand when targeted for termination.
C Long Live Eldrazi C
How are you finding that amount of permission? It seems a little excessive to me. Just because whenever I play with that many I get stuck looking at a threat and only drawing counters.
EDIT: Would you also bring in Tendrils vs the bg decks running Scrounger?
EDIT 2: @airgaps, what's your current list looking like?
Disperse isn't legal anymore. Did you mean Compelling Deterrence?
When building a control deck to attack the meta, we have to look at the current 3 decks that are tier 1.
Mardu Vehicles
G/B Sneks/ Delirium
Copy Cat
Each of those decks require specific answers, and tailoring a deck to beat each of those is not currently feasible. It's much easier to target Vehicles and G/B because B removal is unconditional. The merits of playing B/x based control decks is the ability to just out right remove a creature from the battlefield.
When looking at "how to beat" each deck we have to chose a removal suite that is effective against at least 2 of those decks and accept that one of the G1 match ups will be rough. The main issues in Vehciles:
Scrapheap Scrounger is cast on T2 or T3 and already Net +1 for our opponent unless with have a removal spell that exiles it. If we don't have that kind of removal it will eat a removal spell, netting it's +1 on top netting card advantage on the battlefield by crewing a Heart of Kiran or whatever other vehicle is on the board. That alone is already Net +2, over the course of the game (Vs Vehicles) this card alone is like a 4 for 1. When these comes down in multiple it's almost impossible to handle the card outside of blocking it with Gearhulk or some tokens generated from Kalitas or Summoning's. The issue compounded VS Vehicles with cards like Gideon which if resolved is yet another 2 for 1, sometimes 3 for 1, sometimes that card resolves and you lose. The added angle of Gideon being able to come down, make a dude, crew a heart, and still swing at you with a 4/4 flying vigilance is really good against control.
Think of the early game plan, 1 for 1, hope our draw lines up with the aggro deck (vehicles) and hope we have the correct answer? Our only method of generating + positive card advantage and getting ahead on the board is with Kalitas and Summoning's. Gearhulk is great, but generally acts as a stabilizer for our deck. Casting gearhulk is Net +1 because we are getting a free spell of him, it gets MUCH better if we glimmer and go up 3 cards, then it's a blowout. This isn't the case anymore, most of the time the 1st gearhulk is cast to cast a removal spell, in that case we kill "x" creature and try to block another (usually it's here when we lose out first gearhulk). WHat U/B needs mid-late is a solid game plan that will go over the top. Hence, Summonings, but it's our early interaction which suffers early, and the lack of a "good" and effective sweeper like effect that handles the board state regardless of the artifacts that are left over.
Why we are "great" against G/B is because we can 1 for 1 them, hence we net 0 and once we get to Glimmer/ Gearhulk range we start going up on cards. Vs Saheeli G1's it's hard because our main deck is configured in such a way that responding to and disrupting the combo isn't feasible G1. We're not MD Transgress so our only 2 methods of disruption are
Removal
Permission.
Not the best ways to fight Saheeli G1, and if it's the 4c version it's much harder to beat actually. Many of the guys I play with are in the mastermind (Travis Woo's group), and are RPTQ qualified players (and former Pro Tour Competitors), and I ask them for sincere advice. I like their honesty even though hearing sucks. here's what they said --->" You can beat certain decks if you target them, but there will be tier 2 decks that thrash you because of the amount of Shenanigans currently going on. Control doesn't pile on the pressure early, so VS Saheeli G1 you're not that favored, VS g/b you're good, but VS vehicles? Can you actually remove every single thing they play? What about the left over Vehicles? What about Scrounger coming beck?"
All good observations from them, I didn't have answers to these questions.
The Sultai Delirium list that went 8-2 is actually well set up to fight G/B and Saheeli, but not Vehicles:
2x Aether Hub
4x Blooming Marsh
2x Botanical Sanctum
4x Evolving Wilds
1x Forest
2x Island
2x Lumbering Falls
4x Sunken Hollow
3x Swamp
2x Pick the Brain
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
3x Vessel of Nascency
2x Fatal Push
3x Glimmer of Genius
3x Grapple with the Past
3x Grasp of Darkness
1x Negate
1x Overwhelming Denial
2x To the Slaughter
2x Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1x Noxious Gearhulk
2x Tireless Tracker
3x Torrential Gearhulk
1x Appetite for the Unnatural
2x Fatal Push
4x Grim Flayer
1x Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Negate
1x Overwhelming Denial
1x Pick the Brain
1x To the Slaughter
1x Transgress the Mind
1x Yahenni's Expertise
I dislike Green, I just...ugh. But maybe this is the route to go with for control right now. This deck solves many of our problems, it has a way of getting on the board and leveraging powerful spells to go over the top of G/B aggro/Midrange. It also fights Saheeli well. It's slow, and probably needs updating for the new "aggro" meta (I'm guessing this guy beat more than a few vehicles), but it's worth looking at control a new way to build control for this meta. U/B can be good, but vehicles presents an asymmetrical board state that will cause us to fall behind in the long run, in the end they actually out card advantage the control deck.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Also, I was pleasantly surprised with Aether Thief last night, and he did draw me some cards, but more importantly, he tended to draw removal in some decks, which meant Gearhulks were more likely to stick around. I'm thinking of running two Transgress in the side, mainly to hit the larger threats in BG, but also to deal with their Scroungers (but not for aggro). Could these be Lost Legacies instead? Yes, I know they don't hit the Scrounger, but would certainly give flexibility...
Based on the way the deck played last night, here's the latest iteration...
1 Blighted Fen
2 Aether Hub
4 Choked Estuary
2 Submerged Boneyard
4 Sunken Hollow
6 Island
7 Swamp
Draw spells (8)
1 Confirm Suspicions
3 Anticipate
4 Glimmer of Genius
2 Disallow
2 Negate
3 Spell Shrivel
Removal (13)
1 Yahenni's Expertise
2 Ruinous Path
3 Fatal Push
3 Murder
4 Grasp of Darkness
Win-cons (6)
3 Metallurgic Summonings
3 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Complete Disregard
1 Negate
1 Ruinous Path
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Flaying Tendrils
2 Dispel
3 Shielded Aether Thief
3 Dynavolt Tower
I kind of disagree with some points you made. First, how does a scrapheap crewing Heart of Kiran net a +1 card advantage?
Maybe it's play styles, but I disagree with how you characterize the matchup versus vehicles. First and foremost I think the MU comes down entirely too much on a coin flip. If I'm on the play G1, I think I'm slightly favored against vehicles for the best of 3, on the draw and they are heavily favored. You seem very focused on card advantage when my experience with playing against the deck is it all comes down to speed. If I can keep a high enough life total by the time I get to the 6+ mana position I pretty much have the game a lock. When I lose, it's usually a turn 4-5 kill and I have a disallow and glimmer in hand and can't stop the tide. Often times too I'm able to land the turn 6 Gearhulk, but it's still too late, and even though I can 3 or 4 for 1 them with my Gearhulk turn, they can chip in the last few points of damage and finish me with an unlicensed, or they can get the extra attacker to finish me next turn.
The real problem against vehicles, as I see it, is our deck is full of these 3 cmc unconditional removals and counters; murder, ruinous path, disallow, etc... If the vehicles player is on the play and has 1 drop into 2 drop into 1 and 2 drop, and your durdling with tap lands and have a fist full of 3 cmc spells, you're going to loose that game, and what's worse, if you are running a sweeper, your turn 3-4 sweeper only hits half their permanents, completely ignoring Gideon and Heart. It was a little different in the mono white humans / languish days, because you could afford to loose the early tempo, and let the white weenie player run rampant just jamming cheap creatures on the board, because you knew on turn 4 EVERYTHING would die. Not the case against vehicles, so without a sweeper and with so many 3 cmc removals, it's no wonder we get run over so much. I have no problems loosing some card advantage to scrapheap if it buys me time and tempo. In the long run, I know I will have the card advantage, and once I stabilize with Gearhulks in play and have flashbacked a glimmer, the game is pretty much a lock. The trick is surviving long enough to get to that point. Like I said in my earlier post I think this comes down to having a high concentration of 1-2 mana spells that can effectively interact with the deck, and buy time until we have enough mana to stabilize. I've decked myself several times with U/B and 4 Gearhulks, 4 Glimmers, and 3 anticipates is enough gas to keep the deck going to the end, so I don't really overly worry about running out of cards.
Also, I love Shielded Aether Thief as the creature slot in the side, almost entirely because of flash. I am starting to hate Kalitas, again, because I feel like everytime I jam him on turn 4, hoping to stabalize, he eats an unlicensed D and I take 9 the next turn, or else the opponent lands a Gideon. I'd rather just keep my mana up when I'm at 4 lands rather than Jam Kalitas.
I could see a deck list looking some thing like this
4 Fatal Push
4 Take into Custody
4 Grasp of Darkness
4 Negate
2 Murder
2 Ruinous Path
2 Void Shatter
4 Glimmer of Genius
1 Confirm Suscpicions
3 Metallurgic Summonings
4 Torrential Gearhulk
Those Take into Custody may be jank, but it is way easier to Push one threat and lock down another for two turns than to Murder one. Custody buys you time.
C Long Live Eldrazi C
kpal said earlier that there are a lot of creatures with ETB effects, and I agree. However, Select for Inspection is pretty rough on vehicles if you're not going the Fragmentize route.
C Long Live Eldrazi C
If you're running an array of counter spells, negate, disallow, horribly awry, etc... then I think inspection is equal to custody in terms of how limited it is. Bouncing an 8/8 verderous gearhulk to buy time to get your disallow seems fine to me. Think of it like this, bouncing a creature means removal and counter spells are now viable to permanently deal with it, whereas tapping it down means only removal is capable of dealing with it. I still haven't tested it yet so there's a very real chance inspection is garbage, but I think the tempo it gains against vehicles would be big, and the scry I'd view as .5 card advantage, so I view it as a loss of .5 of a card for a fairly decent tempo gain.
EDIT: Also, bouncing is a LOT more preferable to tap down against vehicles, becuase they can respond to a tap down by crewing a vehicle. Bouncing a creature lets you wait for opponent to actually declare attackers before you cast
1 Blighted Fen
4 Choked Estuary
4 Sunken Hollow
2 Evolving Wilds
8 Island
8 Swamp
Creatures
4 Torrential Gearhulk
Spells
4 Fatal Push
4 Negate
2 Anticipate
2 Horribly Awry
4 Grasp of Darkness
4 Disallow
2 Ruinous Path
1 To the Slaughter
4 Glimmer of Genius
2 Murder
4 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Flaying Tendrils
4 Thing in the Ice
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1 Ruinous Path
2 Dispel
Also, went through the sideboard game and came up with the following. Not sure how it'll change if I swap sideboard pieces obviously
3x Anticipate
1x Confirm Suspicions
2x Disallow
2x Fatal Push
4x Glimmer of Genius
4x Grasp of Darkness
3x Murder
2x Negate
3x Void Shatter
1x Blighted Fen
4x Choked Estuary
7x Island
2x Submerged Boneyard
4x Sunken Hollow
8x Swamp
Sorcery (3)
3x Ruinous Path
Enchantment (3)
3x Metallurgic Summonings
Creature (4)
4x Torrential Gearhulk
2x Dispel
2x Fatal Push
2x Fathom Feeder
1x Lost Legacy
1x Murder
1x Negate
1x Ruinous Path
1x Sphinx of the Final Word
2x To the Slaughter
2x Yahenni's Expertise
UW Flash/GW Tokens
In:
2x fatal push
1x murder
2x yahenni's expertise
Out:
1x Anticipate
1x Glimmer
1x Torrential Gearhulk
1x Void Shatter
1x Ruinous path (depends on PWs)
GB Aggro (smaller creatures)
In:
2x fatal push
1x murder
2x yahenni's expertise
Out:
1x Anticipate
1x Glimmer
1x Torrential Gearhulk
1x Void Shatter
1x Ruinous path (depends on PWs)
GB Delirium (i.e. Hulks)
In:
1x Murder
1x Ruinous Path
1x Negate
Out:
1x Anticipate
1x Torrential Gearhulk
1x Void Shatter
Mardu Vehicles (important!)
In:
2x Fatal Push
1x Murder
1x Negate
1x Sphinx? For flyers
Out:
3x Ruinous Path
1x Glimmer
1x Gearhulk
Control (PW-based)
In:
2x Dispel
2x Fathom Feeder
1x Sphinx
1x Negate
2x To the Slaughter
Out:
2x Fatal Push
2x Grasp of Darkness
2x Murder
1x Void Shatter
1x Anticipate
Control (Non-PW)
In:
2x Dispel
2x Fathom Feeder
1x Sphinx
1x Negate
1x Murder
Out:
2x Fatal Push
2x Grasp of Darkness
3x Ruinous Path
Saheeli Twin
In:
2x Dispel
1x Lost Legacy
1x Murder
1x Negate
1x Sphinx of the Final Word
2x To the Slaughter
Out:
2x Fatal Push
1x Grasp
2x Void Shatter
1x Glimmer
1x Anticipate
1x Gearhulk
R/G Energy
In:
2x Dispel
2x Fathom Feeder
1x Lost Legacy (Hydra is probably worth it, right? Or a pump spell or other troublesome non-pummeler creature)
1x Murder
2x Yahenni's Expertise (maybe?)
Out:
3x Ruinous Path
1x Glimmer
1x Anticipate
1x Negate
1x Void Shatter
1x Gearhulk
One thing I noticed is I'm semi-consistently pulling out card draw/gearhulk number 4 for more removal/permission. Is that dumb or am I doing that right?
Edit: I see the Aether Meltdown synergy but it seems somewhat reliant on having a Thief in play for "full value". In my mind we're playing Control and not Tempo, so while that doesn't exclude tempo plays, they need to clearly stand on their own from a value perspective. We're going to be reactive, so being reliant on chaining together the perfect combination of cards should be avoided, which is what put me off Yahenni's Expertise; I was so excited about that one until I starting playing it!