im not sure if running the thief is worth it even against mga. they have lignify and utopia vow which cancel the thiefs effect and you still die.
or am i wrong?
Lignify would negate Fortune Thief, which seems to give MGA exactly two answers to it, the other being Serrated Arrows. Utopia Vow would have absolutely no effect on Fortune Thief, since it only prevents attacking or blocking (not that you'd do that with him anyways) and now allows him to tap for mana - which actually helps RDW.
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Lignify would negate Fortune Thief, which seems to give MGA exactly two answers to it, the other being Serrated Arrows. Utopia Vow would have absolutely no effect on Fortune Thief, since it only prevents attacking or blocking (not that you'd do that with him anyways) and now allows him to tap for mana - which actually helps RDW.
oh ok. i wasnt positive about what i said. thanks for clearing that.
i was wondering if for those splashing green has thought of running assualt//battery? maybe inplace of shock? it can be a shock when you need to get rid of a blocker and a 3/3 beater when you need a creature.
For those of you running mono-red, Dead/Gone is a good alternate to Assault/Battery. I originally included it i my board as an answer to huge fatties, but I find that it generally wreaks havok with any attempts at tempo, especially if you use the Gone side during their attack or end step.
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Some wonder why I carry 8 decks on me. The answer? I get tired of being boarded against in casual games, and 90% of the players I meet can't beat a jank deck I made to be tokens for a serious one.
That's true, the slowness takes the edge off of it. I just thought I'd toss that out there.
I keep switching back and forth between shock and dead//gone. Don't know why, dead//gone really is the more powerful of the two.
Should heat shimmer be ran in 3 or 4 ofs?
And is 5 green mana producers enough for krosan in the sb?
I run 9 G sources (3 Forest, 2 Pendelhaven, 4 Karplusan Forest) along with 4 Terramorphics to get me the R or G I need from my 4 Mountains and 3 Forests I run. This lets me get out GG or RR I need fast for either Troll Ascetic or Blood Knight.
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I run 9 G sources (3 Forest, 2 Pendelhaven, 4 Karplusan Forest) along with 4 Terramorphics to get me the R or G I need from my 4 Mountains and 3 Forests I run. This lets me get out GG or RR I need fast for either Troll Ascetic or Blood Knight.
Well right now I'm splashing green just for grips in the sb and I run 5 green sources. 1 pandlehaven and 4 highland weald.
That should be enough for grips right?
Or should I got with a terrarmorfic route.
Well right now I'm splashing green just for grips in the sb and I run 5 green sources. 1 pandlehaven and 4 highland weald.
That should be enough for grips right?
Or should I got with a terrarmorfic route.
And given the hard time RDW has dealing with Tarmogoyf, I'd honestly boost your G count and find some Tarmogoyfs of your own. They chump other Goyfs and live...and put the opposing Goyf in burn range. Or you could replace the Grips with Pithing Needles (and basically remove your need of G) and splash black for surefire Goyf removal of Terror and Slaughter Pact.
Mono-Red seems pretty weak anymore, and a splash is almost required for success.
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And given the hard time RDW has dealing with Tarmogoyf, I'd honestly boost your G count and find some Tarmogoyfs of your own. They chump other Goyfs and live...and put the opposing Goyf in burn range. Or you could replace the Grips with Pithing Needles (and basically remove your need of G) and splash black for surefire Goyf removal of Terror and Slaughter Pact.
Mono-Red seems pretty weak anymore, and a splash is almost required for success.
i like where the splash might be heading, if you don't have goyfs. shriekmaw is better then terror and slaughter pact for this deck imo. shriekmaw is just better in every way and s.pact would lock up mana against a deck that wouldn't want that.
how is the elemental build working out for you golden?
ie: how often do you say stuff like "goddamn i wish this was a fanatic"
i like where the splash might be heading, if you don't have goyfs. shriekmaw is better then terror and slaughter pact for this deck imo. shriekmaw is just better in every way and s.pact would lock up mana against a deck that wouldn't want that.
how is the elemental build working out for you golden?
ie: how often do you say stuff like "goddamn i wish this was a fanatic"
My only problem with Shriekmaw is that it doesn't have Flash. With Terror (and Slaughter Pact...which is only 2B and doesn't lock down a lot of mana), you can kill the creature whenever you want. With Shriekmaw, you can only kill it on your turn.
Magic is like poker. Bluffing is part of the game. It's like holding a burn spell and blocking something fat with Blood Knight and then getting your opponent's hopes up before burning it down for the kill and saving your knight. Letting your opponent feel like he has the upper hand in the games is a great boon to you, since it lulls them into a feeling of complacency, and makes them more apt to make mistakes.
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i like where the splash might be heading, if you don't have goyfs. shriekmaw is better then terror and slaughter pact for this deck imo. shriekmaw is just better in every way and s.pact would lock up mana against a deck that wouldn't want that.
how is the elemental build working out for you golden?
ie: how often do you say stuff like "goddamn i wish this was a fanatic"
Why is a splash so important? Seems like ever decks just becoming x/goyf.
I'll stick to mono red.
And my meta I don't expecyt to see a lot of goyfs. So I'll be safe. And if I do, well you guys were right and I'll find some way to deal with them.
As far as elementals go, they're pretty good. I added fanatics actually. They're running great as a second 1 drop. I'm hoping in the next set we get some elementals that are good. I could use a 3rd one to run.
I'm not so sure that Krosan Grip is the right call for the enchantment/artifact removal. Seal of Primordium costs one less, can be played early to get it out of your hand and in a worst case scenario can pump you Goyf... I think the question is... is their an enchantment/artifact a control deck is going to play that you absolutely must kill? Split Second makes sure of that, and if their is enough control with artifact/enchantments that are absolutely critical to kill, then Krosan Grip would be a better call.
is the spells your sb or are those md?
and is it 2 martyr of sands or ashes mainboard?
i love inner flame acoylte, i hated them at first but im running them right now in my deck and theyre amazing.
as far as seal vs. grip-
seal is amazing if you run goyf and want a cheap art./ench. removal.
but if you dont theres no point in running it since your helping someone elses goyf.
if your not running goyf and want cheap removal go with naturalize. i think they reprinted it.
I've started to think it might be better to cut Treetop Village as much as I like the card, I think it's holds the deck back. The deck likes to do something every turn for at least the first 3 turns, which doesn't always leave room for Village to be dropped into play tapped. Furthermore with the 20 land build I'm currently I don't always have the 3 lands to afford an attack with Village, sometimes I'd rather play something then attack with Village.
I've started to think it might be better to cut Treetop Village as much as I like the card, I think it's holds the deck back. The deck likes to do something every turn for at least the first 3 turns, which doesn't always leave room for Village to be dropped into play tapped. Furthermore with the 20 land build I'm currently I don't always have the 3 lands to afford an attack with Village, sometimes I'd rather play something then attack with Village.
i aggre, but i havent tried them to be certin. but i think villages belong in mga not rdw. we have encampment which does a great job as a blocker or an attacker.
i aggre, but i havent tried them to be certin. but i think villages belong in mga not rdw. we have encampment which does a great job as a blocker or an attacker.
My statement's got nothing to do with being on color. It's about the fact manlands come into play tapped and how that negatively effects the early game of the deck, and how it conflicts with a low land count by having to tie up 3 lands to attack with one creature.
Honestly, Goyfs aren't that bad. I've played against a hundred of them and they never lasted 2 turns, especially if playing red. Also, as was pointed out by someone else, the creature theme of Lorwyn makes Goyf less effective. Keep in mind that it has no abilities and no evasion, just fat, so a dedicated creature deck would oftentimes simply trample through the Goyf with a little help from removal.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
im not sure i agree, as i play 20 lands to, and i get to the 3 lands, plus from some testing, giving up a first turn play isn't all that bad
and another thing, if you weren't playing tarmagoyfs, you'd be playing gathan raiders which are way to slow, and no way of of destroying moat or story circle, and no 3/3 trample land when you have nothing better to do, and it some builds, a 3/2 that cant be targated
I still splash Green for Goofy, this is not reason not to, but I just don't think the Village has a place in the deck due to the fact it comes into play tapped, and takes 3 lands to work.
Also you've misunderstood me with the land comment. I'm not saying the deck doesn't hit 3 lands, I'm saying giving up 3 lands for only 3 damage is a lot for the deck, and most of the time I'd rather play something else then attack with village, it's an of idea getting more damage if I played something else with the 3 mana. There's no land search, no accel in the deck, most of the time you don't hit more then 5 lands a game, because the game is most often won or lost by then. In testing more and more I noticed I rarely attacked with Village, I could do much more damage by simply playing something else out then using those 3 lands to attack with Village.
Oh, and just so no one says it, Turbofog games shouldn't go that long either, between Manabarbs and Cryoclasm sideboard (switch in fact are good SB options having uses against other decks) and the burn suit of the deck, Turbofog shouldn't worry you in the least.
What is your reasoning for playing heat shimmer? I feel that Threaten is much, much better.
The forum goers have started liking Heat Shimmer feeling it's got more application then Threaten. The thinking goes to the line of you're able to kill legends with it, take advantage for comes into play effects, and copy your own creatures for more damage. I think Threaten is better, because snatching a creature also removes it as a blocker as well as letting you swing with it, and perhaps sac it to Greater Gargadon.
Just to note back to my previous statements on Village, Heat Simmer and Threaten are good examples of how 3 lands can do more then swing for 3 damage. Attacking with Village doesn't change the board position, it's true you can take 3 life perhaps with it, but you can also run straight into blockers and lose a land you might have otherwise needed. Ultimately you have to react to the situations the other deck presents in order to win, and frankly for this deck if swinging with Village is the best play you've got, in most situation it's highly likely that you're going to lose.
What is your reasoning for playing heat shimmer? I feel that Threaten is much, much better.
I think it deserves the spot in the maindeck over threaten.
It makes a copy of a creature, which gives you an extra attacker and a extra creature to sac for garg. It combos well with marauders and other stuff. Also it kills legends and isn't dead against control. It almost always has a use.
Well Needle's a catch all card... and I'm not entirely sure exactly what the states metagame is going to be. I'm 70% positive that the majority of the decks at MY states are going to be Kithkin or WW varients. I'm 90% sure that Control is going to be underrated and going to perform extremely well.
As I have no clue what exactly is going to happen... Needle does several uses against Teachings that I feel are really, really good.
The worst play with a needle is to name Coalition Relic. While this shuts off the charge counter ability, they still get access to off color mana.
A good play would be to name Urza's Factory, in case the game goes long, they can't beat you with an army of 2/2's.
A decent play would be to name Academy Ruins, if they are running the Triskalion engine.
Of course you can always name Gargadon in the mirror after your garg is low on counters... but I don't think that will ever happen.
To be quite honest, control has the advantage against this deck before board. Our testing against 3 different teachings builds (the expected majority of the control decks) is around 45/55 in favor of control. That's with main deck Heat Shimmers as well, without that, the percentage swing in favor of control an additional 5-10%. Heat Shimmer won 1 game from copying Venser and bouncing a 2/2 factory token, 3 games from copying Bogerdan Hellkite killing my opponents dragon and swinging for 5, and 2 games from copying Teferi.
After the 3rd Kill with the copied Hellkite, it was never played against this deck again in the test games... unless it killed me immediately.
Aggro is always going to be a tossup anyways. Either you out aggro your opponent or you get out aggroed.
I'll say this, there are possibly some versions of this deck that could possibily afford to run the Shimmer in the board, because of their creature makeup. But I think the best build neccistates the Shimmer.
If you are going for cheap fat... try Hunted Wumpus... control most ofter wont have a creature in their hand anyway. Not one that they want to drop to ***/damn the board.
Well Needle's a catch all card... and I'm not entirely sure exactly what the states metagame is going to be. I'm 70% positive that the majority of the decks at MY states are going to be Kithkin or WW varients. I'm 90% sure that Control is going to be underrated and going to perform extremely well.
If you are going for cheap fat... try Hunted Wumpus... control most ofter wont have a creature in their hand anyway. Not one that they want to drop to ***/damn the board.
im waiting to see what my metas gonna be like.
i think the shivian wumpus works well, they dont gain nothing from him. theyd only lose a land just for you to play it on your next turn. im testing it out against aggro.
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Lignify would negate Fortune Thief, which seems to give MGA exactly two answers to it, the other being Serrated Arrows. Utopia Vow would have absolutely no effect on Fortune Thief, since it only prevents attacking or blocking (not that you'd do that with him anyways) and now allows him to tap for mana - which actually helps RDW.
oh ok. i wasnt positive about what i said. thanks for clearing that.
i didnt even think of arrows.
I keep switching back and forth between shock and dead//gone. Don't know why, dead//gone really is the more powerful of the two.
Should heat shimmer be ran in 3 or 4 ofs?
And is 5 green mana producers enough for krosan in the sb?
I run 9 G sources (3 Forest, 2 Pendelhaven, 4 Karplusan Forest) along with 4 Terramorphics to get me the R or G I need from my 4 Mountains and 3 Forests I run. This lets me get out GG or RR I need fast for either Troll Ascetic or Blood Knight.
Well right now I'm splashing green just for grips in the sb and I run 5 green sources. 1 pandlehaven and 4 highland weald.
That should be enough for grips right?
Or should I got with a terrarmorfic route.
Maybe run 4 terrarmorfic and 2 forest?
Even when I just had Krosan Grips in the board, I ran four Karplusan Forest and two Pendelhaven (namely cause they tapped for G AND made a swinging Mogg Fanatic or Scorched Rusalka a bit bigger).
And given the hard time RDW has dealing with Tarmogoyf, I'd honestly boost your G count and find some Tarmogoyfs of your own. They chump other Goyfs and live...and put the opposing Goyf in burn range. Or you could replace the Grips with Pithing Needles (and basically remove your need of G) and splash black for surefire Goyf removal of Terror and Slaughter Pact.
Mono-Red seems pretty weak anymore, and a splash is almost required for success.
i like where the splash might be heading, if you don't have goyfs. shriekmaw is better then terror and slaughter pact for this deck imo. shriekmaw is just better in every way and s.pact would lock up mana against a deck that wouldn't want that.
how is the elemental build working out for you golden?
ie: how often do you say stuff like "goddamn i wish this was a fanatic"
My only problem with Shriekmaw is that it doesn't have Flash. With Terror (and Slaughter Pact...which is only 2B and doesn't lock down a lot of mana), you can kill the creature whenever you want. With Shriekmaw, you can only kill it on your turn.
Magic is like poker. Bluffing is part of the game. It's like holding a burn spell and blocking something fat with Blood Knight and then getting your opponent's hopes up before burning it down for the kill and saving your knight. Letting your opponent feel like he has the upper hand in the games is a great boon to you, since it lulls them into a feeling of complacency, and makes them more apt to make mistakes.
Why is a splash so important? Seems like ever decks just becoming x/goyf.
I'll stick to mono red.
And my meta I don't expecyt to see a lot of goyfs. So I'll be safe. And if I do, well you guys were right and I'll find some way to deal with them.
As far as elementals go, they're pretty good. I added fanatics actually. They're running great as a second 1 drop. I'm hoping in the next set we get some elementals that are good. I could use a 3rd one to run.
Here's the decklist I have right now.
Land-21
1x pandlehaven
3x ghittu encampment
4x highland weald
13x mountain
Creatures-24
4x flamekin bladewhirl
4x mogg fanatic
4x keldon marauders
4x inner-flame acolyte
4x sulfer elemental
4x greater gargadon
4x rift bolt
4x dead//gone
4x incinerate
3x heat shimmer
is the spells your sb or are those md?
and is it 2 martyr of sands or ashes mainboard?
i love inner flame acoylte, i hated them at first but im running them right now in my deck and theyre amazing.
as far as seal vs. grip-
seal is amazing if you run goyf and want a cheap art./ench. removal.
but if you dont theres no point in running it since your helping someone elses goyf.
if your not running goyf and want cheap removal go with naturalize. i think they reprinted it.
i aggre, but i havent tried them to be certin. but i think villages belong in mga not rdw. we have encampment which does a great job as a blocker or an attacker.
My statement's got nothing to do with being on color. It's about the fact manlands come into play tapped and how that negatively effects the early game of the deck, and how it conflicts with a low land count by having to tie up 3 lands to attack with one creature.
i run 7 cipt lands right now and havent really had a tie up.
What is your reasoning for playing heat shimmer? I feel that Threaten is much, much better.
I still splash Green for Goofy, this is not reason not to, but I just don't think the Village has a place in the deck due to the fact it comes into play tapped, and takes 3 lands to work.
Also you've misunderstood me with the land comment. I'm not saying the deck doesn't hit 3 lands, I'm saying giving up 3 lands for only 3 damage is a lot for the deck, and most of the time I'd rather play something else then attack with village, it's an of idea getting more damage if I played something else with the 3 mana. There's no land search, no accel in the deck, most of the time you don't hit more then 5 lands a game, because the game is most often won or lost by then. In testing more and more I noticed I rarely attacked with Village, I could do much more damage by simply playing something else out then using those 3 lands to attack with Village.
Oh, and just so no one says it, Turbofog games shouldn't go that long either, between Manabarbs and Cryoclasm sideboard (switch in fact are good SB options having uses against other decks) and the burn suit of the deck, Turbofog shouldn't worry you in the least.
The forum goers have started liking Heat Shimmer feeling it's got more application then Threaten. The thinking goes to the line of you're able to kill legends with it, take advantage for comes into play effects, and copy your own creatures for more damage. I think Threaten is better, because snatching a creature also removes it as a blocker as well as letting you swing with it, and perhaps sac it to Greater Gargadon.
Just to note back to my previous statements on Village, Heat Simmer and Threaten are good examples of how 3 lands can do more then swing for 3 damage. Attacking with Village doesn't change the board position, it's true you can take 3 life perhaps with it, but you can also run straight into blockers and lose a land you might have otherwise needed. Ultimately you have to react to the situations the other deck presents in order to win, and frankly for this deck if swinging with Village is the best play you've got, in most situation it's highly likely that you're going to lose.
I think it deserves the spot in the maindeck over threaten.
It makes a copy of a creature, which gives you an extra attacker and a extra creature to sac for garg. It combos well with marauders and other stuff. Also it kills legends and isn't dead against control. It almost always has a use.
Threaten a lot of the time becomes a dead card.
Right now I'm running
Pyroclasm
Krosan grip
Shivian wumpus(giving it a shot)
Cryoclasm
What's your choice's?
Any one got a list of the sb choices after rav rotates?
As I have no clue what exactly is going to happen... Needle does several uses against Teachings that I feel are really, really good.
The worst play with a needle is to name Coalition Relic. While this shuts off the charge counter ability, they still get access to off color mana.
A good play would be to name Urza's Factory, in case the game goes long, they can't beat you with an army of 2/2's.
A decent play would be to name Academy Ruins, if they are running the Triskalion engine.
Of course you can always name Gargadon in the mirror after your garg is low on counters... but I don't think that will ever happen.
To be quite honest, control has the advantage against this deck before board. Our testing against 3 different teachings builds (the expected majority of the control decks) is around 45/55 in favor of control. That's with main deck Heat Shimmers as well, without that, the percentage swing in favor of control an additional 5-10%. Heat Shimmer won 1 game from copying Venser and bouncing a 2/2 factory token, 3 games from copying Bogerdan Hellkite killing my opponents dragon and swinging for 5, and 2 games from copying Teferi.
After the 3rd Kill with the copied Hellkite, it was never played against this deck again in the test games... unless it killed me immediately.
Aggro is always going to be a tossup anyways. Either you out aggro your opponent or you get out aggroed.
I'll say this, there are possibly some versions of this deck that could possibily afford to run the Shimmer in the board, because of their creature makeup. But I think the best build neccistates the Shimmer.
If you are going for cheap fat... try Hunted Wumpus... control most ofter wont have a creature in their hand anyway. Not one that they want to drop to ***/damn the board.
im waiting to see what my metas gonna be like.
i think the shivian wumpus works well, they dont gain nothing from him. theyd only lose a land just for you to play it on your next turn. im testing it out against aggro.