IT'S GARBAGE because threaten is almost always better.
you're saying heat shimmer is good because it's an aggro environment and you can have an extra attacker to get by his blockers?
UM why not just steal his best creature instead of copying it? threaten is way better then heat shimmer. that is way more useful then copying the best creature. and if you have a gargadon suspended, guess what, you sac his creature after too! omg removal and beats all in 1 package!
and threaten is only sb material. threaten > heat shimmer. and to call it a replacement for char?! seriously i'm thinking ghostfire because of that 1/1 kithkin with prot red and sac to prevent 1 red source. THAT IS A PROBLEM.
Hmm, ghost fire is just so slow to me.
And I have a hard time making room in my sideboard for it.
I think in the deck list you posted mikey, the seals make perfect sense in the sideboard. It helps your goyf. Unless your reeally relying on the split second for krosan grip, why not run seals?
7x ghost fires sideboard must be tech. Haha.
I've never played that version of rdw.
Why not run cheap burn for aggro. Like dead//gone or shock. But dead//gone can bounce a creature. Its actually a ver versitle card.
belongs in every RDW deck which runs gargodon and/or goyf (every good RDW deck)
Think about it. Keldon marauders=5 damage, gargodon= nine damage, goyf= number of card types in gy damage, raiders=5 damage(if hellbent), any of your opponents creatures can be copied too. plus it kills teferi, korlash, and other legends.
I agree completely.
Talk about a card flying under the radar.
Kills legends. Duplicates really good creatures to alpha-strike with. Duplicates your own creatures as you already stated. A great card IMO.
7x ghost fires sideboard must be tech. Haha.
I've never played that version of rdw.
Why not run cheap burn for aggro. Like dead//gone or shock. But dead//gone can bounce a creature. Its actually a ver versitle card.
Tarfire is much better than Shock if you're running Tarmogoyfs, since it's a Tribal Instant and thus makes the Goyf bigger.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I was driven from this once-great site by abusive mods and admins, who create rules out of thin air to punish people for breaking them (meaning the rule does not exist under forum rules) and selectively enforce the rules that are written on the forum rules. I am currently lurking while deleting 6 years and 2 months of posting history. I will return when ExpiredRascals, Teia Rabishu and Blinking Spirit are no longer in power.
IT'S GARBAGE because threaten is almost always better.
you're saying heat shimmer is good because it's an aggro environment and you can have an extra attacker to get by his blockers?
UM why not just steal his best creature instead of copying it? threaten is way better then heat shimmer. that is way more useful then copying the best creature. and if you have a gargadon suspended, guess what, you sac his creature after too! omg removal and beats all in 1 package!
and threaten is only sb material. threaten > heat shimmer. and to call it a replacement for char?! seriously i'm thinking ghostfire because of that 1/1 kithkin with prot red and sac to prevent 1 red source. THAT IS A PROBLEM.
Threaten is the piece of garbage. It only works well if your opponent has big creatures out. IT CAN'T WORK IN ANY OTHER SITUATION.
The thing is the meta will still have control. Its not gonna be all aggro.
You say threaten is removal. Its not. It just temporarily gets rid of one of his creatures. The chances that you are in the situation where his bomb is in play untapped and ready to block are slim(vigilance isn't all that popular with the better cards in standard) which is the only situation where threaten could be better.
Heat shimmer is much better removal. Think about it.
1) Korlash gives us problems cause of his regeneration. This simply kills him.
2) Doran based aggro will be extremely difficult for us to beat since our burn is ineffective against high toughness creatures.
3)the new 4/4 for 2WR with lifelink just screws us since its out of our burn range and it gains them life.
We run big creatures already. It make our big creatures double the threat. Plus it combos with cards like mogg war marshal and keldon marauders.
The reason threaten is sb material is because it only works in certain situations.
Heat shimmer is so flexible. It can be used even if your opponent isn't running aggro.
If you don't believe me, test it out. Its a good card.
I agree with the Heat Shimmer argument. I does soooooo much more than threaten. Being able to get in two extra damage, remove an extra 3 counters from Gargadon, the ability to easily kill legends, whats not like? It's rarely dead, unlike Threaten which is pretty much dead against control.
Word of Seizing still has to come in arguments for deck space (whether that be the deck or sideboard) mainly because it has more flexibility that Threaten (or Heat Shimmer) and has Split Second.
Another card is Inner-Flame Acolyte. The evoke ability isn't actually all that bad. Think of it as a pseudo Reckless Charge or as a 4/2 Haste that can come out of nowhere and keep the pressure on the opponent. Nothing like a having 7 going to the dome on turn 3 (Keldon Maruaders and the Acolyte.) Or 8 (two Maruaders, one of which has been Evoked by the Acolyte). It has flexibility and isn't such a bad creature itself.
Heck with Heat Shimmer you could drop a Marauders, copy an Acolyte you have in play with Heat Shimmer, give the bonus to the Marauders and swing for 9. There is quite a few number of good interactions these two cards give to the deck.
i jumped on the band wagon for running heat shimmer, i actually think it has a home in rdws. my only issue is i dropped 4x low mana creatures for the raiders and now it seems like my decks clogged with 3-4 drops. should i drop something for a lower mana creature? maybe the berserker for a lower mana elemental. i need something so that bladewhirls not dead in my hand.
i would drop the raiders all together actually, this format, they just seem way to slow, i would maybe try to go for a green splash, but if you dont want to then play mogg fanatic
Ok. I did kinda run into that problem.
So -4 raiders, +4 martyr.
What for the open burn spot?
Also I droped the changling berserker for flamekin acoyltes. I feel like the champion effect just slows the deck down.
Plus the acoyltes are pretty much a 4/2 with haste for 3. Granted they become a 2/2 after that turn.
I'd love to splash green. And I've been told running the elementals itd be very easy to get big elementals out fast. But I think if I were to itd only be for gofy, but a 100 dollars a playset, that's pushing it.
They're just under 30 dollars here, the card shop I go to a lot pays over 20 just to buy them from you.
Well I could run disenigrates too. I have an opening. Then just run fungal reaches to store up mana.
I think heat shimmers good. Not as good as some people talk it up. But worthly of a spot. Especially if your not running goyf.
Seems a bit more solid. I'd like to see an artifact worth running in the deck that would be capable of killing itself to make the Tarmogoyfs bigger. Once Lorwyn rotates in, I'm bringing in Tarfire to replace Seal of Fire, which will double pump the Goyfs. Downside is, I lose Seal of Fire which also pumps the Goyf as an Enchantment.
So my deck will be capable of making the Goyf into a 5/6 once Lorwyn comes in (Creatures [Mogg Fanatic], Lands [Terramorphic Expanse], Sorceries [Rift Bolt], Instants [Incinerate et al], and Tribal [Tarfire]). 5/6 out of a possible 8/9 isn't too bad.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I was driven from this once-great site by abusive mods and admins, who create rules out of thin air to punish people for breaking them (meaning the rule does not exist under forum rules) and selectively enforce the rules that are written on the forum rules. I am currently lurking while deleting 6 years and 2 months of posting history. I will return when ExpiredRascals, Teia Rabishu and Blinking Spirit are no longer in power.
@Solaran
I don't think it is wise to play 10 'come into play tapped lands' along with 12 one drops (including Rift Bolt) as it screws up your first few turns against aggro and giving control a few free turns.
Here's a deck I drove to an FNM win. It's not exactly RDW but I'll just throw the list up in the air for anyone who might be interested.
Having the ten CIPT lands actually doesn't hinder me. I rarely miss a one drop, and if I lack a one drop I can drop a CIPT land without an issue and then drop a normal land on turn 2 for a two drop.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I was driven from this once-great site by abusive mods and admins, who create rules out of thin air to punish people for breaking them (meaning the rule does not exist under forum rules) and selectively enforce the rules that are written on the forum rules. I am currently lurking while deleting 6 years and 2 months of posting history. I will return when ExpiredRascals, Teia Rabishu and Blinking Spirit are no longer in power.
why are you guys posting about decks that are not going to be legel in a couple of weeks? you have things like tarfire to play now, there aint no more seal of fire
The only card in my deck that won't be legal on October 20th is Seal of Fire. And guess what?
I was driven from this once-great site by abusive mods and admins, who create rules out of thin air to punish people for breaking them (meaning the rule does not exist under forum rules) and selectively enforce the rules that are written on the forum rules. I am currently lurking while deleting 6 years and 2 months of posting history. I will return when ExpiredRascals, Teia Rabishu and Blinking Spirit are no longer in power.
Alright, I came in here looking for Red Deck Wins. A mono red build that has been around for quite some time. Instead I see R/G and R/G/W decks all running Tarmogoyf. I know the 'goyf is a good creature, but not for every deck.
Can we get back on topic to a mono red deck that wins, or should the title of this topic be changed to "R/G/W deck wins".
In the MWS world, for many players, winning also makes you a noob.
The same applies to:
-Knowing the rules.
-Netdecking.
-Not netdecking.
-Using old versions of a card (yeah, it has hapenned to me: "Ugh... ugly pic noob")
-Knowing English.
-Using phases.
-Countering spells.
<@MarkRosewater> THis is a secret we've carefully guarded but for this chat I'm going to spill the beans.
<@MarkRosewater> Some cards in Magic are better than others.
<@MarkRosewater> Ssh, don't tell anyone.
I'd like to go on the record as saying that G/W Kithkins aren't that amazing. Personally I'd say they roll over and die to the decks we've tested. Sure they have an Isamaru, but you have a Mogg Fanatic. Their Lord that pumps Isamaru? Keldon Maruaders, or even better, a Tarfire to the lord, and their Isamaru dies a horrible death. Paladin? Meet Tarmogoyf. Soltari Priest? Okay, eat 9 from my Gargadon. Their Lifelink Knight is good, but you have plenty of better stuff. If you feel White is going to be that prevelant, run Sulfur Elementals and Blood Knights. The more they go away from Kithkins, the more it becomes a generic W/G aggro build... that rolls over to control, control is going to be huge at states. Teachings decks are going to be everywhere. I'd build a deck for that expected metagame.
Thats just a R/g analysis. I'm pretty sure that splashing for Goyf is the right call here, as it gives you access to other good green spells and lands in the form of Treetop Village. But at the very least, Goyf is so easily splashable, that there is no reason that it should not be run.
Mikey, replace those Threaten with Heat Shimmer. Pronto. They do what Threaten does sooooooo much better. Threaten is dead in a control matcup, where as Heat Shimmer can come out of nowhere and win you the game. In a control match where your opponent has a Venser in play and a Urza's Factory token.... or...
Heat Shimmer the Venser, bounce the token and swing with your army. Or Heat Shimmer a Bogardan Hellkite and kill their Hellkite and swing for 5.
Or... Heat Shimmer your Gargadon... your Goyf... your Keldon Maruaders... or Inner-Flame Acolyte... which I highly recomend running, it gives you some reach against control in order to finish them off. Plus swinging for 7 (or 8 depending on if you dropped a Mogg Fanatic 1st turn means you have 11 damage dealt to your opponent before he hits *** or Damnation mana.
Personally I cut my Gargadon and Mogg War Marshall count to 3 a piece. I also only run 2 Tarfire, as I expect my opponents to powering up Tarmogoyf enough for all of us. Occasionally, when you have to do the job yourself, Tarfire to power that Goyf. I find Mogg War Marshall good with Gargadon, but I've never been excited to draw it at any other time. I seem to draw Gargadon often enough anyway so finding it isn't a problem for me.
I'm telling you Kithkins aren't going to be as good as you are making them out to be. Heat Shimmer is so much superior against control... it isn't even funny. I won 2 games due to coping Venser (you get the CITP ability) and 3 games by copying Bogardan Hellkite. Sacrificing a little game against an aggro deck you should have handled already seems like a small price to pay to improve your game against control.
Heat Shimmer kills legends. So Korlash goes down quite easily... regeneration doesn't stop korlash from dying a horrible death to the legend rule... Threaten doesn't do jack to kill Korlash, because Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth makes ALL lands Swamps, not just your opponents.
Alright, I came in here looking for Red Deck Wins. A mono red build that has been around for quite some time. Instead I see R/G and R/G/W decks all running Tarmogoyf. I know the 'goyf is a good creature, but not for every deck.
Can we get back on topic to a mono red deck that wins, or should the title of this topic be changed to "R/G/W deck wins".
I can see where you are coming from but the sad reality is that a pure RDW build is unable to compete with top decks without a support colour. Using another colour allows you to have more options and answers to problems a red deck will always face.
I have to disagree, I've piloted a mono-R version of RDW to several Top 4 finishes in FNM, plus assorted testing. The only deck that I "roll over" to is Martyr, which is losing a lot of it's oomph. It loses precisely nothing for Lorwyn coming in, as well, and has the tools to deal with nearly any situation from the new set. Here's my list:
It may not have the raw power of R/G, but the darned thing curves at 2 (until board, anyway) and is insanely consistant. It flat outraces all things Control unless they get a god hand, and even then it's a close thing. It takes the control stance against nearly any aggro deck, wiping away their critters with abandon and pinging them for ones and twos when able. The lack of direct artifact destruction hurts, but the only times I've had a major problem with it was when someone planted a Warhammer onto a Soltari Priest.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Some wonder why I carry 8 decks on me. The answer? I get tired of being boarded against in casual games, and 90% of the players I meet can't beat a jank deck I made to be tokens for a serious one.
I have to disagree, I've piloted a mono-R version of RDW to several Top 4 finishes in FNM, plus assorted testing. The only deck that I "roll over" to is Martyr, which is losing a lot of it's oomph. It loses precisely nothing for Lorwyn coming in, as well, and has the tools to deal with nearly any situation from the new set. Here's my list:
It may not have the raw power of R/G, but the darned thing curves at 2 (until board, anyway) and is insanely consistant. It flat outraces all things Control unless they get a god hand, and even then it's a close thing. It takes the control stance against nearly any aggro deck, wiping away their critters with abandon and pinging them for ones and twos when able. The lack of direct artifact destruction hurts, but the only times I've had a major problem with it was when someone planted a Warhammer onto a Soltari Priest.
Your deck is alright except for one card.. Magus of the scroll. Its a horrible turn 1 drop and it requires 3 mana and one card in your hand to activate. If you drop this turn one its ability won't be activated...If you drop it late game(turn 4 or 5) chances are you will only get 2-4 damage out of it. Perhaps less if you draw something good that you want to play.
Red has loads of direct artifact destruction. I think you mean enchantment destruction.
Pyroclasm will completely dominate in the post lorwyn standard. This plus heat shimmer will give you answers to all types of decks(that run creatures)
Shunt is meh...Its highly conditional and aggro is going to be more popular in the Lorwyn standard making it less useful.
good point. i think that solves that issue.
doesnt ghostfire also help against story circle?
And I have a hard time making room in my sideboard for it.
I think in the deck list you posted mikey, the seals make perfect sense in the sideboard. It helps your goyf. Unless your reeally relying on the split second for krosan grip, why not run seals?
I've never played that version of rdw.
Why not run cheap burn for aggro. Like dead//gone or shock. But dead//gone can bounce a creature. Its actually a ver versitle card.
I agree completely.
Talk about a card flying under the radar.
Kills legends. Duplicates really good creatures to alpha-strike with. Duplicates your own creatures as you already stated. A great card IMO.
Tarfire is much better than Shock if you're running Tarmogoyfs, since it's a Tribal Instant and thus makes the Goyf bigger.
Yeah, very true. But I think he's already running tarfire. Just in place of ghost fire and threaten. Itd work.
Threaten is the piece of garbage. It only works well if your opponent has big creatures out. IT CAN'T WORK IN ANY OTHER SITUATION.
The thing is the meta will still have control. Its not gonna be all aggro.
You say threaten is removal. Its not. It just temporarily gets rid of one of his creatures. The chances that you are in the situation where his bomb is in play untapped and ready to block are slim(vigilance isn't all that popular with the better cards in standard) which is the only situation where threaten could be better.
Heat shimmer is much better removal. Think about it.
1) Korlash gives us problems cause of his regeneration. This simply kills him.
2) Doran based aggro will be extremely difficult for us to beat since our burn is ineffective against high toughness creatures.
3)the new 4/4 for 2WR with lifelink just screws us since its out of our burn range and it gains them life.
We run big creatures already. It make our big creatures double the threat. Plus it combos with cards like mogg war marshal and keldon marauders.
The reason threaten is sb material is because it only works in certain situations.
Heat shimmer is so flexible. It can be used even if your opponent isn't running aggro.
If you don't believe me, test it out. Its a good card.
Word of Seizing still has to come in arguments for deck space (whether that be the deck or sideboard) mainly because it has more flexibility that Threaten (or Heat Shimmer) and has Split Second.
Another card is Inner-Flame Acolyte. The evoke ability isn't actually all that bad. Think of it as a pseudo Reckless Charge or as a 4/2 Haste that can come out of nowhere and keep the pressure on the opponent. Nothing like a having 7 going to the dome on turn 3 (Keldon Maruaders and the Acolyte.) Or 8 (two Maruaders, one of which has been Evoked by the Acolyte). It has flexibility and isn't such a bad creature itself.
Heck with Heat Shimmer you could drop a Marauders, copy an Acolyte you have in play with Heat Shimmer, give the bonus to the Marauders and swing for 9. There is quite a few number of good interactions these two cards give to the deck.
i think its the best ive had so far.
18x mountain
2x ghitu encampment
creature-24
4x flamekin bladewhirl
4x keldon marauders
4x gathan raiders
4x sulfer elemental
4x changling berserker
4x greater gargadon
4x rift bolt
4x incinerate
4x fiery temper
4x heat shimmer
4x wildfire emissary
4x martyr of ashes
4x fatal frenzy
3x pithing needle
i jumped on the band wagon for running heat shimmer, i actually think it has a home in rdws. my only issue is i dropped 4x low mana creatures for the raiders and now it seems like my decks clogged with 3-4 drops. should i drop something for a lower mana creature? maybe the berserker for a lower mana elemental. i need something so that bladewhirls not dead in my hand.
my bad.
Ok. So switch the raiders and martyrs?
Or just drop them alltoghether
if I do what should replace fiery temper?
Any thing else?
Ok. I did kinda run into that problem.
So -4 raiders, +4 martyr.
What for the open burn spot?
Also I droped the changling berserker for flamekin acoyltes. I feel like the champion effect just slows the deck down.
Plus the acoyltes are pretty much a 4/2 with haste for 3. Granted they become a 2/2 after that turn.
I'd love to splash green. And I've been told running the elementals itd be very easy to get big elementals out fast. But I think if I were to itd only be for gofy, but a 100 dollars a playset, that's pushing it.
Well I could run disenigrates too. I have an opening. Then just run fungal reaches to store up mana.
I think heat shimmers good. Not as good as some people talk it up. But worthly of a spot. Especially if your not running goyf.
4x Blood Knight
4x Keldon Marauders
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Troll Ascetic
4x Gathan Raiders
4x Rift Bolt
4x Incinerate
4x Fiery Temper
4x Karplusan Forest
4x Terramorphic Expanse
3x Ghitu Encampment
3x Keldon Megaliths
2x Pendelhaven
2x Mountain
2x Forest
Seems a bit more solid. I'd like to see an artifact worth running in the deck that would be capable of killing itself to make the Tarmogoyfs bigger. Once Lorwyn rotates in, I'm bringing in Tarfire to replace Seal of Fire, which will double pump the Goyfs. Downside is, I lose Seal of Fire which also pumps the Goyf as an Enchantment.
So my deck will be capable of making the Goyf into a 5/6 once Lorwyn comes in (Creatures [Mogg Fanatic], Lands [Terramorphic Expanse], Sorceries [Rift Bolt], Instants [Incinerate et al], and Tribal [Tarfire]). 5/6 out of a possible 8/9 isn't too bad.
I don't think it is wise to play 10 'come into play tapped lands' along with 12 one drops (including Rift Bolt) as it screws up your first few turns against aggro and giving control a few free turns.
Here's a deck I drove to an FNM win. It's not exactly RDW but I'll just throw the list up in the air for anyone who might be interested.
4 Paladin en-Vec
4 Soltari Priest
4 Serra Avenger
4 Tarmogoyf
Spells
4 Pyroclasm
4 Lightning Helix
4 Seal of Fire
4 Rift Bolt
4 Incinerate
3 Char
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Keldon Megaliths
3 Mountain
3 Plains
4 Cryoclasm
4 Ghostfire
4 Krosan Grip
3 Sulfur Elemental
The only card in my deck that won't be legal on October 20th is Seal of Fire. And guess what?
I already got four Tarfires ready to replace it.
Can we get back on topic to a mono red deck that wins, or should the title of this topic be changed to "R/G/W deck wins".
Thats just a R/g analysis. I'm pretty sure that splashing for Goyf is the right call here, as it gives you access to other good green spells and lands in the form of Treetop Village. But at the very least, Goyf is so easily splashable, that there is no reason that it should not be run.
Mikey, replace those Threaten with Heat Shimmer. Pronto. They do what Threaten does sooooooo much better. Threaten is dead in a control matcup, where as Heat Shimmer can come out of nowhere and win you the game. In a control match where your opponent has a Venser in play and a Urza's Factory token.... or...
Heat Shimmer the Venser, bounce the token and swing with your army. Or Heat Shimmer a Bogardan Hellkite and kill their Hellkite and swing for 5.
Or... Heat Shimmer your Gargadon... your Goyf... your Keldon Maruaders... or Inner-Flame Acolyte... which I highly recomend running, it gives you some reach against control in order to finish them off. Plus swinging for 7 (or 8 depending on if you dropped a Mogg Fanatic 1st turn means you have 11 damage dealt to your opponent before he hits *** or Damnation mana.
I'm telling you Kithkins aren't going to be as good as you are making them out to be. Heat Shimmer is so much superior against control... it isn't even funny. I won 2 games due to coping Venser (you get the CITP ability) and 3 games by copying Bogardan Hellkite. Sacrificing a little game against an aggro deck you should have handled already seems like a small price to pay to improve your game against control.
Heat Shimmer kills legends. So Korlash goes down quite easily... regeneration doesn't stop korlash from dying a horrible death to the legend rule... Threaten doesn't do jack to kill Korlash, because Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth makes ALL lands Swamps, not just your opponents.
I can see where you are coming from but the sad reality is that a pure RDW build is unable to compete with top decks without a support colour. Using another colour allows you to have more options and answers to problems a red deck will always face.
right now im running
i have an opening for a play set of something, but i cant find any spell i feel happy running.
any ideas?
in the sideboard what kind of artifact removal should be ran in mono red, no splash?
what kind of artifacts do we have to worry about?
4x Greater Gargadon
3x Magus of the Scroll
3x Mogg Fanatic
4x Mogg War Marshall
4x Keldon Marauders
4x Epochrasite
4x Blood Knight
4x Shock
4x Incinerate
4x Rift Bolt
Land (22):
3x Keldon Megaliths
19x Mountain
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Dead/Gone
4x Shunt
3x Pyroclasm
It may not have the raw power of R/G, but the darned thing curves at 2 (until board, anyway) and is insanely consistant. It flat outraces all things Control unless they get a god hand, and even then it's a close thing. It takes the control stance against nearly any aggro deck, wiping away their critters with abandon and pinging them for ones and twos when able. The lack of direct artifact destruction hurts, but the only times I've had a major problem with it was when someone planted a Warhammer onto a Soltari Priest.
Your deck is alright except for one card.. Magus of the scroll. Its a horrible turn 1 drop and it requires 3 mana and one card in your hand to activate. If you drop this turn one its ability won't be activated...If you drop it late game(turn 4 or 5) chances are you will only get 2-4 damage out of it. Perhaps less if you draw something good that you want to play.
Red has loads of direct artifact destruction. I think you mean enchantment destruction.
Pyroclasm will completely dominate in the post lorwyn standard. This plus heat shimmer will give you answers to all types of decks(that run creatures)
Shunt is meh...Its highly conditional and aggro is going to be more popular in the Lorwyn standard making it less useful.
For the price of this deck it will do alright
or just both?
i actually dont like martyr mainboarded.
is warhammer and pithing needles the only artifacts we have to fear?
besides enchanments.