One thing I don't like is how non-aggressive [Patbou's 24 land RW] list is. Full of 3-drops and not-full of 1-drops that really make cards like Thalia's Lieutenant shine, and put the pressure on to divert removal from your big cards. My initial draft: -4 Magma Spray, -4 Basic lands, +4 Expedition Envoy, +4 Thraben Inspector
Yes. I don't like either the low number of Weenies in my initial draft. I just wanted to test 4 Combat Celebrant, 4 Hanweir Garrison and 4 Always Watching in the main deck, and make sure I hit land #3 on turn 3. I'll fine tune from there, and hope I can add some Weenies to put value in Mimic and Lieutenant.
FYI, there's a strange interaction between Combat Celebrant and Glory-Bound Initiate (Gabi)... Cast Gabi on turn 2, Celebrant on turn 3 and attack with Gabi (for 4 and Lifelink with Exert). Turn 4, attack with Celebrant for 4 (exert). This will untap Gabi and you can attack with him again (4 again, lifelink).
Best is with Always Watching on turn 4, as this will allow you to attack again with Celebrant in the additional Combat phase (15 damage total during that turn, 19 including turn 3), and not be tapped on turn 5. If you managed to play a Weenie on turn 1 and attack once, you're already winning (with 7 cards)... Or if you have Shock and 4th land (8 cards).
Also, if you played another Celebrant on turn 4, you can repeat this sequence next turn if you can attack with it.
Celebrant is quite vulnerable at 1 toughness, and that's the main drawback. It's the kind of creature that wants first strike. Suggestions, other than white Cartouche?
I can definitely see a Human deck that abuses from all these good cards and the Human theme...
I think we should try to brew with Bloodlust Inciter. Initiate, Celebrant and Garrison all want haste, as well as Lieutenant (if Garrison is already there) or Soul-Scar Mage (with Always Watching on turn 4 to trigger Prowess and make it a 3/4).
If opponent only has one removal, he'll have to decide if he removes a) Inciter while a powerful Human is on the stack (this protects the powerful Human), or b) the powerful Human while Inciter's ability is on the stack (which protects Inciter). Actually, removing Inciter may be the best play for the opponent, since it is likely we'll have more powerful Humans coming next turns. This tells us a lot about the power level of Inciter.
Here are some scenarios, depending if our starting 7 cards are tribal or exert :
T1 Inciter ; T2 hasted Mimic (attack for 2) ; T3 hasted Garrison (attack for 9 = 11) ; T4 hasted Lieutenant (attack for 21 = 32 damage, 7 cards).
T1 Inciter ; T2 hasted Initiate (exert and attack for 4) ; T3 Always Watching (attack for 2 = 6) ; T4 hasted Celebrant (exert all on attack #1 for 10 ; untap Inciter and exert again Initiate, now a 6/8, for attack #2 to deal 13 = 29 damage, 7 cards).
Note to scenario #1 : Even if Garrison *and* Lieutenant gets removed on turn 4, we still deal 20 damage total. The Exert path may be the most explosive (and lifelink is a big safety to win later), but the Tribal path has the safest and quickest way to win.
In both cases, no need for fourth land on T4 (and there's even a spare land in scenario #1). Extra lands can be used to cast Gryff's Boon on key players (Garrison or Celebrant), and/or to Shock opponent or blocker. Bonus to Lieutenant scenario : Soul-Scar Mage to trigger Lieutenant and Shock to torture a blocker with -2/-2 counters.
Finally, Glorious End may be a good way to protect us from sweepers (post SB), and still win next turn, thanks to haste.
I have my doubts too on Soul-Scar Mage. But I'll test it in real action before I decide on its fate.
Honored Crop-Captain is fighting for a spot in the deck, but the 2 CMC slots are already crowded with Mimic, Lieutenant and Initiate. I don't think we should cut any of the 8 Weenies for it (be they Mage, Inciter, Inspector, Envoy and/or Apprentice). And do we really want less than 4 of each Garrison and Celebrant? Always Watching needs to be full playset, I think. There's not much room for customization. Only the 4 Shock and 2 Gryff's Boon are not part of the main strategy (and Boon is probably part of it, to attack freely with Garrison or Celebrant).
Exact number of land is to be determined. With 12 drop-3, it will probably hurt us really bad if we don't curve out to land #3 on time, and I'm more inclined to play 22 lands to ensure a nice curve and risk a flood that will feed Needle Spires, than be short and paralysed with awesome but dead cards in my hand.
I would rather run Town Gossipmonger over Soul-Scar Mage, especially since you are running very little burn and non-creature spells to take advantage of both prowess and his -1/-1 counters effect.
I want to run Celebrant along with tricks that give indestructibility and/or buff toughness. Also the Vizier of blink something.
While I am not good at creating convincing arguments, I am better at being convincing than I am at being accurate. That's not good. I have a lot of ideas to test now. I should be able to get some testing in with my group this week. I am looking forward to having data to pass on and receive! So many cool cards!
I would rather run Town Gossipmonger over Soul-Scar Mage, especially since you are running very little burn and non-creature spells to take advantage of both prowess and his -1/-1 counters effect.
Town Gossipmonger is interesting with Combat Celebrant and Always Watching. Exert Celebrant and untap the creature that transformed Town Gossipmonger before the additional Combat phase. Always Watching is good too here, because of Vigilance, obviously.
I've always thought Town Gossipmonger to be too slow to be good, but I guess it now has a good home with these cards.
I want to run Celebrant along with tricks that give indestructibility and/or buff toughness. Also the Vizier of blink something.
Nice to have a working group.
I was thinking the same about the working group, and I've +1 almost every one above!
Don't you think that with Mimic, Lieutenant and Watching, we have enough buff for Celebrant? And isn't Gryff's Boon enough to make Celebrant avoid ground blockers?
Combat Celebrant doesnt seem like a 4-ofs to me. Also 8 3-drops creatures seems like a lot. I'd start with 2 as a testing point then see how it goes.
I could see Always Watching being to 3 as well since the 2nd one isnt all that great. Also, 1WW is though.
For my part, i'll use almost the exact shell you saïd with Thraben inspector as my 1 drop, 3 always watching, 2 Celebrant, 21 lands, 4 Honored crop, 3 shocks and 3 Declaration in stone.
One part i'm very unsure if is the manabase : should Needle spire be a 4-of ? For such an aggresive that wants to play curve on turn 1,2 and 3, CIPT is a huge turndown for me, but at the same time we need a lot of white for always watching. Should we play Aether Hub or is the land not good enough without energy providers ? Are Thraben Inspector + Metallic Mimic enough to allow us to play Spire of Industry ?
Ideally, we want 14 red sources and 19 white sources, but i think thats a pipe-dream.
In the little I've seen in my testing, Combat Celebrant feeds itself in multiples, so having the full playset is not an hindrance, quite the contrary. Eight 3-drops is a lot, however. And that may be the killing argument. But maybe 3 of each Garrison and Celebrant is the way to go... time and experimentation will tell (but my wish is to have a version of the deck that can support 4 of each, and perform).
With so many x/1 creatures in the deck, I think we need the 4 Always Watching to have chances against Liliana and Balista. White Weenies in the Standard of Tarkir-Zendikar-Shadows was playing full playset of the anthem. They had a bit more creatures to put value to it, but we do have Exert that screams for Vigilance. And we do want to cheat Exert, do we?
Spire of Industry is not good with only 8 artifacts. It usually functions well with 14 artifacts (according to Frank Karsten). We should be adding 4 Renegade Map (instead of 2-4 basic lands and 0-2 Needle Spires), and maybe 2 other artifacts* to make it work (unless tests reveal 12 artifacts is enough), if we do indeed use Thraben Inspector instead of Town Gossipmonger. Renegade Map will serve many purposes : fixing the color requirements, feeding Spire of Industry and reducing land density to ensure better top decks (and this may play against mana sinks, like Needle Spires).
* Other artifacts that I think of are : Stoneforge Masterwork, Cathar's Shield and Bomat Courier. Heart of Kiran is not really good for Humans, I think (even if Initiate and Celebrant make it better). Harvester and Pia Nalaar, as 3-drops, are in the wrong position for us.
But spending turn 1 on a tapped land (or Renegade Map) is not really bad when you have Mimic in your starting hand. Mimic may not survive to turn 3, but if it does and you've saved your Weenies for turn 3 and they enter the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter, the delay won't be too bad.
BTW, Frank Karsten's math for color requirements are for ideal circumstances, which Standard is not considering the small card pool (compared to Modern and Legacity). So aiming for 19 white sources may be too ambitious.
You want 19 white sources if your goal is a T3 Always Watching. I really don't think that's the goal here. T4 or T5 is fine. So yes, 8 dual lands, 8 white, 6 red (=22) seems close enough to get the deck going smoothly in both colors. You could even chop a couple to get Battlements in without suffering too much. Aether Hub can work in a deck with more relaxed color demands, but not here.
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Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
A lot of players on XMage are playing Boros with Initiate and Celebrant in a Humans or Vehicles shell. These cards will be worth something.
About T4+ Always Watching : against Balista, you want to cast it on turn 3, before your x/1 Humans (all of them, except Inspector and Garrison). 18 white sources is just fine for that.
That manabase does not inspire me. I can see Spire of Industry getting me from 13-14 sources to more if I am counting on Thraben Inspector to give me the artifact to use Spire of Industry as a colored source. The curve also seems high for 18 lands.
Thinking of Almost Watching, I realize that I am living in a glass house. So here is my next shot.
That manabase does not inspire me. I can see Spire of Industry getting me from 13-14 sources to more if I am counting on Thraben Inspector to give me the artifact to use Spire of Industry as a colored source. The curve also seems high for 18 lands.
The 4 Renegade Map were missing. My bad. I now added them.
Renegade Map is a straight-out bad card. It's extremely slow, and the opposite of what an aggro deck wants. Play 4x Evolving Wilds before you play map. What I mean is: Evolving Wilds fetches a tapped land, so no mana this turn, 1 mana next. Map comes in tapped, so you get -1 mana this turn, and 1 mana next turn.
But because you have no need for Revolt or any other use for basic lands, Stone Quarry is better than both. And you simply don't want 8 tap lands in your aggro deck. Maybe 6 is okay. So 2x Stone Quarry and 2 more basics is your best bet if you want to up the color consistency.
Maybe you're right. I'm just testing Renegade Map to fix the color requirements with Spires of Industry. It isn't as bad as you think. Spires is good, and Map reduces land density. I usually crack it as it untaps during my upkeep, before I draw. If you only have a land and Map in opening hand, you're sure to get land #2 and be in no worse position than with Evolving Wilds. Our spells otherwise don't cost much, and it is easy to cast it in top of another spell. What it does is make sure you'll have an untapped land for turn 3 or 4. I don't mind losing some beat in turn 1-2 if I can get stronger plays in the midgame. Ex : Needle Spires T1, followed by an untapped land to cast Map and Inciter on T2. You're ready to explode with hasted Garrison next turn!
Edit : Note that I've reduced Needle Spires to 2. So, with 4 Maps, that makes 6 tapped lands...
I'm 100% certain. Pro players have tried the card in decks that thrive on artifact value and revolt triggers and rejected the card as just being bad. It doesn't make you have an untapped land for turn 3 or 4 any more than having an actual land would do for you, so play the land.
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Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
With 4 Needle Spires and 4 Inspiring Vantage, the best color production we can get on 22 lands is 16 white and 14 red (with 8 Plains and 6 Mountain). This is a bit low for white, and I would prefer to have 17 or 18 sources for Always Watching. Without more artifacts, Spire of Industry is just bad, and without energy spells, Aether Hub feels the same. I fear Stone Quarry will be a hindrance... and we want some chances of untapped R or W on turn 1 for the In brothers (Citer and Spector). Maybe swap a Mountain for a Plains, to get 13 R and 17 W ? Could that be enough ?
The curve is still too high, but I want to see how the 3 drops play before pruning them.
Edit 1: As for the mana, I've tried Renegade Map in multiple situations and it has always disappoint. I could see 1, maybe 2, but definitely not 4. I am not disagreeing with lajube, but not trying to overstate my own understanding. If we really want to be able to hit our 1-drops, I think we would need to focus on W or R. If we are running Always Watching, I think that means W.
Personally, I don't understand the super-importance of a one drop on 1. I can live with a number of hands that go: Needle Spires tapped; Metallic Mimic; 1 drop + 2 drop. Basically, I am saying our best option in Boros may include embracing 4 Needle Spires.
The curve is still too high, but I want to see how the 3 drops play before pruning them.
Please, my friend, try a playset of Bloodlust Inciter. I've run 5 matchups so far, and it feels it's the card that gave me the most victories. Ex : Inciter into Initiate, attack for 4 lifelink ; the Celebrant attacks for 4 on turn 3 and untaps Initiate for another 4 lifelink. By the end of turn 3, you could be at 28 and opponent at 8!!!
So I've been trying versions of RW and so far I come away disappointed. I run into too many matches where I get torn apart or stonewalled. Not counting the RW deck's nutdraw, it's definitely slower than the GW,and I feel the land is worse (Canopy Vista with lots of basics) vs Needle Spires. I super appreciate having Blossoming Defense.
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Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
So I've been trying versions of RW and so far I come away disappointed. I run into too many matches where I get torn apart or stonewalled. Not counting the RW deck's nutdraw, it's definitely slower than the GW,and I feel the land is worse (Canopy Vista with lots of basics) vs Needle Spires. I super appreciate having Blossoming Defense.
I'll try your GW version, and compare statistics with my Boros version. What's your list?
BTW, anyone interested in data gathering for their deck can set up a spreadsheet with these columns :
A : Matchup (ex : Mardu Vehicles)
B : Results (Formula is : =CONCATENATE(K,"-",L))
C : MW% (Formula is : K/(K+L))
D : GW% (Formula is : I/(I+J))
E-H : One column for each match result possibilities. So 2-0, 2-1, 1-2 and 0-2 (ex : if you've won twice at 2-0 and lost once at 1-2, then write 2 in column E and and 1 in column G... this makes recording your results very fast).
I : GW (Formula is : E*2+F*2+G)
J : GL (Formula is : H*2+G*2+F)
K : MW (Formula is : E+F)
L : ML (Formula is : G+H)
It helps me a lot to have the true picture, instead of a general feeling of the deck (just sum up each columns). It also points out which kind of matchups your deck is good or bad against, and this will guide you for your sideboard decisions. Note : I seperate lines and matchups between Aggro, Control, Combo and Midrange (different sections, and subtotal of each).
A problem I am seeing with the RW lists is that there are too many red 1 drops. The white 1 drops are better in most regards, the only red one I would want is bloodlust inciter and no more than 2 of him. Every build is running alwayswatching, so for color considerations alone, you want white 1 drops. I also see lists running metalic mimic over Honored crop-captain, which I fully beleive is a mistake. Captain is a better topdeck, better on its own, and is one less card hosed by balista. The next big question than becomes wether to run garrison or not. I'm not a fan of him currently, but if magmaspray and push becomes the favored removal, then I could be convinced he is right for the meta. Finally I think true heart duelist deserves 2 slots. Its not that good of a rate, but it provides 2 bodies, so that the land count can be taken up to a slightly higher number without hurting threat density. A higher land count is going to be essentially in coming out the gates fast enough to race sahili and mardu.
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The one card I'm not entirely happy with is Exemplar, though it is good if you need a drop that dodges a 3-mana sweeper, it will then kill another creature and that's kind of not what you want against control either. Maybe I should swap some Declarations and maybe up the number of Hamlet Captains and/or Mimics. Another option is to play 2 cycle-lands to improve mana consistency. This would support a bigger card like Thalia or Nissa.
Lone Rider wins games, so sometimes it's best not to play turn 2. Distract their removal and set up to stick Rider when it's favorable.
Anybody testing Dusk//Dawn? In this deck, lots of stuff could die to a dusk, but almost everything is ressurected by Dawn. But getting mana for Dawn is a sketchy proposition.
Yeah, I don't get Exemplar in this list. If I could consistently dump the counters on a token or an opponent's creatures that would be one thing, but I don't see that here. Those slots could be Duskwatch Recruiter or Gust Walker.
With the Exert creatures, Always Watching seems much better than Oath of Ajani.
I've seen a RG Humans deck this morning that played Exemplar with Blisterpod. He would sacrifice it to Exemplar, and use the Scion as another outlet for the -1/-1 counters. I still won 2-0, however.
I just don't think Honored Crop-Captain is better than Mimic. And although multiples of Bloodlust Inciter are bad, they soon become prime targets for removals (they serve the role as accelerators for us). Having a backup is ok. I'm not convinced Vizier is the right card to protect Garrison and Celebrant. They usually get removed before they get to attack, and Vizier can't target them. It's ok with Lieutenant and Inspector, and also Initiate. Maybe Djeru's Resolve can be a good, but Repel the Abominable does the same thing better.
To throw fuel on the fire, here's the RW build I've been toying with. I know everyone won't be a fan of Bushwhacker here, but I am. I also think Crop-Captain is fantastic and much better than Mimic, especially if paired with Bushwhacker. Even following a board wipe, those 2 together are 7 haste damage.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
FYI, there's a strange interaction between Combat Celebrant and Glory-Bound Initiate (Gabi)... Cast Gabi on turn 2, Celebrant on turn 3 and attack with Gabi (for 4 and Lifelink with Exert). Turn 4, attack with Celebrant for 4 (exert). This will untap Gabi and you can attack with him again (4 again, lifelink).
Best is with Always Watching on turn 4, as this will allow you to attack again with Celebrant in the additional Combat phase (15 damage total during that turn, 19 including turn 3), and not be tapped on turn 5. If you managed to play a Weenie on turn 1 and attack once, you're already winning (with 7 cards)... Or if you have Shock and 4th land (8 cards).
Also, if you played another Celebrant on turn 4, you can repeat this sequence next turn if you can attack with it.
Celebrant is quite vulnerable at 1 toughness, and that's the main drawback. It's the kind of creature that wants first strike. Suggestions, other than white Cartouche?
I can definitely see a Human deck that abuses from all these good cards and the Human theme...
4 Needles Spires
4 Inspiring Vantage
7 Plains
7 Mountain
Creatures (28)
4 Bloodlust Inciter
4 Soul-Scar Mage
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Glory-Bound Initiate
4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Combat Celebrant
4 Always Watching
4 Shock
2 Cartouche of Zeal
1 Harsh Mentor
1 Glorious End
1 Trial of Zeal
1 Cartouche of Zeal
1 By Force
1 Insult to Injury
1 Devoted Crop-Mates
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
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Directly card-for-card updating my GW list to see how a RW feels.
4 Expedition Envoy
3 Metallic Mimic
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Thraben Inspector
2 Honored Crop-Captain
4 Hanweir Garrison
2 Combat Celebrant
4 Glory-Bound Initiate
4 Lone Rider
4 Always Watching
Instant
4 Shock
Land
4 RW Land
6 Mountain
4 Needle Spires
6 Plains
1 Hanweir Battlements
4 Repel the Abominable
4 Gryff's Boon
2 Release the Gremlins
2 Invigorated Rampage
2 Blessed Alliance
3 Declaration in Stone
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
I think we should try to brew with Bloodlust Inciter. Initiate, Celebrant and Garrison all want haste, as well as Lieutenant (if Garrison is already there) or Soul-Scar Mage (with Always Watching on turn 4 to trigger Prowess and make it a 3/4).
If opponent only has one removal, he'll have to decide if he removes a) Inciter while a powerful Human is on the stack (this protects the powerful Human), or b) the powerful Human while Inciter's ability is on the stack (which protects Inciter). Actually, removing Inciter may be the best play for the opponent, since it is likely we'll have more powerful Humans coming next turns. This tells us a lot about the power level of Inciter.
Here are some scenarios, depending if our starting 7 cards are tribal or exert :
Finally, Glorious End may be a good way to protect us from sweepers (post SB), and still win next turn, thanks to haste.
Or... Am I wrong in how I rate Bloodlust Inciter?
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
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Honored Crop-Captain is fighting for a spot in the deck, but the 2 CMC slots are already crowded with Mimic, Lieutenant and Initiate. I don't think we should cut any of the 8 Weenies for it (be they Mage, Inciter, Inspector, Envoy and/or Apprentice). And do we really want less than 4 of each Garrison and Celebrant? Always Watching needs to be full playset, I think. There's not much room for customization. Only the 4 Shock and 2 Gryff's Boon are not part of the main strategy (and Boon is probably part of it, to attack freely with Garrison or Celebrant).
Unless I'm wrong, we probably have this consensus:
4 Bloodlust Inciter
4 Unknown Weenies
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Glory-Bound Initiate
4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Combat Celebrant
4 Always Watching
4 Unknown removals
20-22 lands
2 free spots
Exact number of land is to be determined. With 12 drop-3, it will probably hurt us really bad if we don't curve out to land #3 on time, and I'm more inclined to play 22 lands to ensure a nice curve and risk a flood that will feed Needle Spires, than be short and paralysed with awesome but dead cards in my hand.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
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and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
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While I am not good at creating convincing arguments, I am better at being convincing than I am at being accurate. That's not good. I have a lot of ideas to test now. I should be able to get some testing in with my group this week. I am looking forward to having data to pass on and receive! So many cool cards!
Nice to have a working group.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Town Gossipmonger is interesting with Combat Celebrant and Always Watching. Exert Celebrant and untap the creature that transformed Town Gossipmonger before the additional Combat phase. Always Watching is good too here, because of Vigilance, obviously.
I've always thought Town Gossipmonger to be too slow to be good, but I guess it now has a good home with these cards.
I was thinking the same about the working group, and I've +1 almost every one above!
Don't you think that with Mimic, Lieutenant and Watching, we have enough buff for Celebrant? And isn't Gryff's Boon enough to make Celebrant avoid ground blockers?
In the little I've seen in my testing, Combat Celebrant feeds itself in multiples, so having the full playset is not an hindrance, quite the contrary. Eight 3-drops is a lot, however. And that may be the killing argument. But maybe 3 of each Garrison and Celebrant is the way to go... time and experimentation will tell (but my wish is to have a version of the deck that can support 4 of each, and perform).
With so many x/1 creatures in the deck, I think we need the 4 Always Watching to have chances against Liliana and Balista. White Weenies in the Standard of Tarkir-Zendikar-Shadows was playing full playset of the anthem. They had a bit more creatures to put value to it, but we do have Exert that screams for Vigilance. And we do want to cheat Exert, do we?
Spire of Industry is not good with only 8 artifacts. It usually functions well with 14 artifacts (according to Frank Karsten). We should be adding 4 Renegade Map (instead of 2-4 basic lands and 0-2 Needle Spires), and maybe 2 other artifacts* to make it work (unless tests reveal 12 artifacts is enough), if we do indeed use Thraben Inspector instead of Town Gossipmonger. Renegade Map will serve many purposes : fixing the color requirements, feeding Spire of Industry and reducing land density to ensure better top decks (and this may play against mana sinks, like Needle Spires).
* Other artifacts that I think of are : Stoneforge Masterwork, Cathar's Shield and Bomat Courier. Heart of Kiran is not really good for Humans, I think (even if Initiate and Celebrant make it better). Harvester and Pia Nalaar, as 3-drops, are in the wrong position for us.
But spending turn 1 on a tapped land (or Renegade Map) is not really bad when you have Mimic in your starting hand. Mimic may not survive to turn 3, but if it does and you've saved your Weenies for turn 3 and they enter the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter, the delay won't be too bad.
BTW, Frank Karsten's math for color requirements are for ideal circumstances, which Standard is not considering the small card pool (compared to Modern and Legacity). So aiming for 19 white sources may be too ambitious.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
2 Needle Spires
4 Inspiring Vantage
2 Spire of Industry
6 Plains
4 Mountain
Creatures (28)
4 Bloodlust Inciter
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Glory-Bound Initiate
4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Combat Celebrant
4 Renegade Map
4 Always Watching
4 Shock
2 Gryff's Boon
1 Harsh Mentor
1 Glorious End
1 By Force
1 Insult//Injury
1 Devoted Crop-Captain
1 Honored Crop-Captain
1 Anointer Priest
1 Djeru's Resolve
1 Trueheart Duelist
1 Cast Out
1 Vizier of Deferment
1 Dusk//Dawn
A lot of players on XMage are playing Boros with Initiate and Celebrant in a Humans or Vehicles shell. These cards will be worth something.
About T4+ Always Watching : against Balista, you want to cast it on turn 3, before your x/1 Humans (all of them, except Inspector and Garrison). 18 white sources is just fine for that.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
Thinking of Almost Watching, I realize that I am living in a glass house. So here is my next shot.
4 Soul-Scar Mage
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Glory-Bound Initiate
2 Gust Walker
1 Hanweir Militia Captain
1 Honored Crop-Captain
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
1 Combat Celebrant
2 Devoted Crop-Mate
4 Hanweir Garrison
1 Vizier of Deferment
4 Harnessed Lightning
4 Always Watching
Lands:20
4 Aether Hub
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Hanweir Battlements
4 Inspiring Vantage
1 Mountain
4 Needle Spires
5 Plains
1 Authority of the Consuls
2 Fragmentize
2 Release the Gremlins
1 Harsh Mentor
1 Vizier of Remedy
1 Combat Celebrant
1 Glorious End
1 Lantern Scout
3 Reckless Bushwhacker
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
The 4 Renegade Map were missing. My bad. I now added them.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
But because you have no need for Revolt or any other use for basic lands, Stone Quarry is better than both. And you simply don't want 8 tap lands in your aggro deck. Maybe 6 is okay. So 2x Stone Quarry and 2 more basics is your best bet if you want to up the color consistency.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
Edit : Note that I've reduced Needle Spires to 2. So, with 4 Maps, that makes 6 tapped lands...
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
2 Bloodlust Inciter
3 Soul-Scar Mage
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Glory-Bound Initiate
2 Gust Walker
1 Hanweir Militia Captain
1 Honored Crop-Captain
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
1 Combat Celebrant
1 Devoted Crop-Mate
3 Hanweir Garrison
1 Vizier of Deferment
4 Harnessed Lightning
4 Always Watching
Lands:21
4 Aether Hub
1 Hanweir Battlements
4 Inspiring Vantage
2 Mountain
4 Needle Spires
6 Plains
1 Authority of the Consuls
2 Fragmentize
2 Release the Gremlins
1 Harsh Mentor
1 Vizier of Remedy
1 Combat Celebrant
1 Glorious End
1 Lantern Scout
3 Reckless Bushwhacker
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
The curve is still too high, but I want to see how the 3 drops play before pruning them.
Edit 1: As for the mana, I've tried Renegade Map in multiple situations and it has always disappoint. I could see 1, maybe 2, but definitely not 4. I am not disagreeing with lajube, but not trying to overstate my own understanding. If we really want to be able to hit our 1-drops, I think we would need to focus on W or R. If we are running Always Watching, I think that means W.
Personally, I don't understand the super-importance of a one drop on 1. I can live with a number of hands that go: Needle Spires tapped; Metallic Mimic; 1 drop + 2 drop. Basically, I am saying our best option in Boros may include embracing 4 Needle Spires.
Now testing can show me why not
Edit 2: -1 Gossipmonger, -1 Soul-Scar Mage, +2 Inciter
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Please, my friend, try a playset of Bloodlust Inciter. I've run 5 matchups so far, and it feels it's the card that gave me the most victories. Ex : Inciter into Initiate, attack for 4 lifelink ; the Celebrant attacks for 4 on turn 3 and untaps Initiate for another 4 lifelink. By the end of turn 3, you could be at 28 and opponent at 8!!!
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
I'll try your GW version, and compare statistics with my Boros version. What's your list?
BTW, anyone interested in data gathering for their deck can set up a spreadsheet with these columns :
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
4 Expedition Envoy
3 Metallic Mimic
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Thraben Inspector
3 Hamlet Captain
4 Exemplar of Strength
4 Glory-Bound Initiate
4 Lone Rider
2 Always Watching
2 Oath of Ajani
2 Gryff's Boon
// 4 Instant
2 Blossoming Defense
2 Blessed Alliance
// 20 Land
4 Canopy Vista
4 Forest
4 Fortified Village
8 Plains
2 Stasis Snare
2 Gryff's Boon
2 Natural Obsolescence
2 Blossoming Defense
2 Repel the Abominable
2 Fragmentize
3 Declaration in Stone
The one card I'm not entirely happy with is Exemplar, though it is good if you need a drop that dodges a 3-mana sweeper, it will then kill another creature and that's kind of not what you want against control either. Maybe I should swap some Declarations and maybe up the number of Hamlet Captains and/or Mimics. Another option is to play 2 cycle-lands to improve mana consistency. This would support a bigger card like Thalia or Nissa.
Lone Rider wins games, so sometimes it's best not to play turn 2. Distract their removal and set up to stick Rider when it's favorable.
Anybody testing Dusk//Dawn? In this deck, lots of stuff could die to a dusk, but almost everything is ressurected by Dawn. But getting mana for Dawn is a sketchy proposition.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
With the Exert creatures, Always Watching seems much better than Oath of Ajani.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Current list I'm testing on XMage...
4 Needle Spires
4 Inspiring Vantage
9 Plains
5 Mountain
Creatures (28)
4 Bloodlust Inciter
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Glory-Bound Initiate
4 Hanweir Garrison
2 Combat Celebrant
2 Vizier of Deferment
4 Always Watching
2 Shock
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Gryff's Boon
1 Harsh Mentor
1 Glorious End
1 By Force
1 Insult//Injury
1 Devoted Crop-Captain
1 Honored Crop-Captain
1 Anointer Priest
1 Djeru's Resolve
1 Trueheart Duelist
1 Cast Out
1 Vizier of Deferment
1 Dusk//Dawn
SB is under construction
I just don't think Honored Crop-Captain is better than Mimic. And although multiples of Bloodlust Inciter are bad, they soon become prime targets for removals (they serve the role as accelerators for us). Having a backup is ok. I'm not convinced Vizier is the right card to protect Garrison and Celebrant. They usually get removed before they get to attack, and Vizier can't target them. It's ok with Lieutenant and Inspector, and also Initiate. Maybe Djeru's Resolve can be a good, but Repel the Abominable does the same thing better.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
4 Expedition Envoy
4 Town Gossipmonger
4 Soul-Scar Mage
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Honored Crop-Captain
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
3 Gryff's Boon
3 Always Watching
4 Inspiring Vantage
1 Aether Hub
3 Needle Spires
4 Mountain
10 Plains
Modern: UW Spirits