Sure, but it's not like cards like Anguished Unmaking or Unlicensed Disintegration are bad in other matchups. Being able to stop them from comboing is critical. It's not that big of a deal to eat your tempo after turn 6 anyway. You can just tap out like crazy until a combo piece is on the board or they have 5 mana going towards being able to have six.
True, I'm not saying to take them out, but you don't want to be leaning on them. The versions I was playing were pretty heavy on counterspells, so they'd counter my turn 4 and 5 walkers, then I'd be stuck holding up mana for the rest of the game until I could either find some hand disruption, or some on-board combo prevention. If you have some threats you can drop before turn 4, you'll be way better off, as well.
On the bright side, I feel like we're pretty strongly favored against the BG decks.
I feel I really want to go for a heavy planeswalker/creatureless deck so 16 planeswalkers is the correct number of walkers. Archangel Avacyn has treated me well but will replace them with Heart of Kiran. Need to think of a card to cut to put a third one in though but will try with just two first. May remove an Oath of Chandra. I like keeping Anguished Unmaking in but I can see the benefits of replacing them with Unlicensed Disintegration for extra value since this deck will now have a worthy vehicle. Will test once I get some copies. Blessed Alliance is too good. Since now I don't need Stasis Snare, this card has been increased for 3 of with great success.
Matchups have been good. I do not fear control at all and with 16 walkers burning their counters. Early fast aggro is still a weakness but it isn't as bad as when Smuggler's Copter was around. Once walkers start coming in, the opponent spends most of their time dealing with them, which is fine since even if they go down, there are replacements waiting. I rarely get to ultimate but it was nice to ultimate Nahiri for Avacyn to swing, then flash her back in during my opponent's turn. By removing Avacyn I will lose a Nahiri ultimate target, but that does not mean my opponent knows that and they will always aim to kill Nahiri first.
The metagame is still new and changing. We will see how this deck will fare.
There are currently no Saheeli combo decks in my meta so it is not much of a concern at the moment. In the event that it is, that is what the sideboard is for. I am still in the belief that the Saheeli combo does not have a proper shell to truly make it powerful and consistent... and if it does, it is a prime target for a ban. I feel people are being very cautious this time around before investing in the combo so it will not as widespread. But we will see after the PT and the second B&R announcement.
Having said that, I have been noticing that Radiant Flames has been pretty weak as of late mainboard. It was mostly there for super fast aggro which had me dead before turn 4 but that has not been a thing as of late. Having Shock instead may be a better card to use to keep in theme on what the deck is trying to do... and to deal with Saheeli.
If you're running 16 main deck planeswalkers, I highly recommend going up to 4 Oath of Liliana. It protects your planeswalkers well and can take over a game even if they manage to kill them. Also, I made the swap to maindeck Shock from pre-Aether Revolt Radiant Flames and have been pretty happy with it. Most aggressive decks are going to be running vehicles, which reduces the value of sweepers a bit.
I was happy running 3 Oath of Chandra and 3 Oath of Liliana in my more Planeswalker heavy build. Drawing multiples wasn't ideal even though we had Nahiri. I feel 3 is a decent number as they aren't necessary. I do agree though that Oath of Liliana is fantastic. Essentially tacking Gideons zero ability onto your walkers and has synergy with Kalitas, Liliana, and the zombie X spell.
I don't see why it would be dead. It is very viable, especially after the bannings. It is a super fun deck that most people have a hard time knowing how to deal with it. It tries not to do broken or fancy things, just lots of accumulative value. In my opinion, it is the best Superfriends deck in this standard season.
Here are some things I took note of from tonight's FNM.
Heart of Kiran felt very weak. While it could be good if you are ahead, anywhere else it felt like a wasted card. Bringing the card early just gives time for the opponent to prep a proper answer. There are all kinds of removal floating around, including oddly enough, Stasis Snare. I often thought that this card would fall out of flavor with Emrakul being out of standard but it is still being widely used, in particularly the GW lists. It is a novelty to use loyalty to crew but in the end, the card benefits from having both loyalty and creature based crewing available, something that this deck cannot provide.
Shock was okay. Stops the Saheeli combo and can take out a create here and there but its value starts to fall off later in the game. I do not want to completely write off the card but will start considering alternatives in the black varieties:)
As much as I would like this deck to be creatureless, it felt an empty void not having Archangel Avacyn in deck. Its good to always have something to ultimate Nahiri into. I was recommended Linvala, the Preserver as another target as well. Considering the amount of agro that is out there, there is a good chance to be behind in both life and creatures. For now I may just go to Avacyn. I know this goes against with what I said with Heart of Kiran, but there is a difference in giving an opponent time to get an answer to a vehicle than flashing a creature unexpectedly and provide indestructibility to the few tokens we manage to make.
Round 1: GB Delieum 2-1
* I feel Favratable in this match up. His win was more gas then I had answers. My 2 Wins came off Liliana, the Last Hope Ult and a Sram's Expertise into Oath of Gideon Fallowed by a Gideon Ult
Round 2: Jeski Saheeli 2-1
* He was play a version that wasn't dedicated to the combo it was an agro version with it against this version i feel favorable with the lack of counter spells. His Win was a combo off i drew all walkers with no removal, My wins were with a Chandra ult + OB ult, and then on the back of my tokens again.
Round 3: BW Control 2-1
* It was a basic BW control nothing crazy again Favorable. His win was with hitting 3 Archangel Avacyn kept the tempo his way saving his creatures. My Wins were from Him getting stuck on Land and just over powered him with walkers.
Round 4: UR Saheeri 1-2
* This was a dedicated control version of the deck and i felt it being a 50/50. His wins were combos but the game 3 came to both of us in top deck and his came up first before my removal. My win was on my SB made me more aggressive and he was on his heal most of the game.
Stars of the night: Sram's Expertise: I didn't have a time i wasn't unhappy to see it and was always a strong swing in play weather it brought in Removal, oaths or Liliana Oath of Gideon & Oath of Liliana: Both were great protecting walkers all 4 of there modes are so good here.
Underperformers: Fatal Push: Was ok vs GB but a lot of the time they were dead might go down to 2 not sold on moving to side yet though. Quarantine Field: I always had a better option in hand and not being instant speed kinda hurts may cut or move to SB.
Over all i was really pleased how the deck ran i did have to mull a few times but maybe with a little more mana tweaking I can avoid that. I could use a little more direction in my Sb but I never played there before so didn't know what to expect. I decided to go creatureless so game 1 they would be holding most of all there removal and it would be just dead cards. Then in games 2-3 bring some in and they be safe if they were not seen the game before, and work a lot of the time. Even playing just a few creature against most decks the creature will die cuz they are holding so much that it is a waste of a play for us when we could be dropping more walkers or just holding up our own removal to protect our game plan.
Any Questions about any of my chooses feel free to ask I monitor his thread regularly. As i'm always looking for ways to improve and help others
Round 1: GB Delieum 2-1
* I feel Favratable in this match up. His win was more gas then I had answers. My 2 Wins came off Liliana, the Last Hope Ult and a Sram's Expertise into Oath of Gideon Fallowed by a Gideon Ult
Round 2: Jeski Saheeli 2-1
* He was play a version that wasn't dedicated to the combo it was an agro version with it against this version i feel favorable with the lack of counter spells. His Win was a combo off i drew all walkers with no removal, My wins were with a Chandra ult + OB ult, and then on the back of my tokens again.
Round 3: BW Control 2-1
* It was a basic BW control nothing crazy again Favorable. His win was with hitting 3 Archangel Avacyn kept the tempo his way saving his creatures. My Wins were from Him getting stuck on Land and just over powered him with walkers.
Round 4: UR Saheeri 1-2
* This was a dedicated control version of the deck and i felt it being a 50/50. His wins were combos but the game 3 came to both of us in top deck and his came up first before my removal. My win was on my SB made me more aggressive and he was on his heal most of the game.
Stars of the night: Sram's Expertise: I didn't have a time i wasn't unhappy to see it and was always a strong swing in play weather it brought in Removal, oaths or Liliana Oath of Gideon & Oath of Liliana: Both were great protecting walkers all 4 of there modes are so good here.
Underperformers: Fatal Push: Was ok vs GB but a lot of the time they were dead might go down to 2 not sold on moving to side yet though. Quarantine Field: I always had a better option in hand and not being instant speed kinda hurts may cut or move to SB.
Over all i was really pleased how the deck ran i did have to mull a few times but maybe with a little more mana tweaking I can avoid that. I could use a little more direction in my Sb but I never played there before so didn't know what to expect. I decided to go creatureless so game 1 they would be holding most of all there removal and it would be just dead cards. Then in games 2-3 bring some in and they be safe if they were not seen the game before, and work a lot of the time. Even playing just a few creature against most decks the creature will die cuz they are holding so much that it is a waste of a play for us when we could be dropping more walkers or just holding up our own removal to protect our game plan.
Any Questions about any of my chooses feel free to ask I monitor his thread regularly. As i'm always looking for ways to improve and help others
Would you say Heart of Kiran has a place here as at least a 2 of? It seems like it will play well with Planeswalkers and it's an artifact for disintegration.
Round 1: Saheeli Combo
Game 1 - I was able to just jam planeswalkers and he didn't have time to combo before I won with my walkers.
Game 2 - He brought out his combo so I had some dead cards. The game was really grindy and he eventually landed a Dragonmaster Outcast I had no answer for right away. By the time I cleared it off the board he had 3 dragons.
Game 3 - Long game. Ended in a draw with me in a commanding position and removal held up. Draws are to be expected in this kind of matchup though as they can be quite grindy and long.
Game 2 - Longer game that ended with me smashing him with Gideon every turn until he died. Transgress the Mind was great here.
Round 3: UR Dynavolt Control
Game 1: I eventually powered through his counterspells and won with walkers.
Game 2: This went long, but in the end Transgress the Mind and Mind Rot were critical to clearing his hand and Chandra gave me a huge advantage once I finally got a planeswalker on the board.
Round 4: Mardu Planeswalkers (Cauldrath)
Game 1: He played Heart of Kiran and planeswalkers and I never drew an out for Heart so he steamrolled me and all the planeswalkers I played.
Game 2: He was able to stablize the board on turn 5 and I was never able to take it back and got beat down by back to back planeswalkers.
Round 5: GB Delirium/Midrange
Game 1: He kept a double swamp hand and never drew more lands.
Game 2: I killed everything he played and I was able to stick a Nahiri that eventually filtered me to other walkers.
Top 8 Round 1: Saheeli Combo
Game 1: Transgress the Mind kept him off the combo and I was able to jam threats and Goblin Dark-Dwellers to continually pressure his counterspells and hand.
Game 2: I got stuck on 3 lands for a while and he countered my Painful Truths By the time I started playing my 4 Mana walkers I was too far behind and he countered everything I played and combo'd off eventually.
Game 3: This was a close game. I had an Authority of the Consuls on the board, but eventually died to his Torrential Gearhulk, Saheeli damage, and manlands. I had Sorin in my hand the whole game and never was able to get my sixth land. The turn that ended the game I cast a transgress the mind and he Spell Queller'd it. Then I cast Grasp of Darkness on Queller and he used gearhulk to counter it so I was dead.
Round 1: GB Delieum 2-1
* I feel Favratable in this match up. His win was more gas then I had answers. My 2 Wins came off Liliana, the Last Hope Ult and a Sram's Expertise into Oath of Gideon Fallowed by a Gideon Ult
Round 2: Jeski Saheeli 2-1
* He was play a version that wasn't dedicated to the combo it was an agro version with it against this version i feel favorable with the lack of counter spells. His Win was a combo off i drew all walkers with no removal, My wins were with a Chandra ult + OB ult, and then on the back of my tokens again.
Round 3: BW Control 2-1
* It was a basic BW control nothing crazy again Favorable. His win was with hitting 3 Archangel Avacyn kept the tempo his way saving his creatures. My Wins were from Him getting stuck on Land and just over powered him with walkers.
Round 4: UR Saheeri 1-2
* This was a dedicated control version of the deck and i felt it being a 50/50. His wins were combos but the game 3 came to both of us in top deck and his came up first before my removal. My win was on my SB made me more aggressive and he was on his heal most of the game.
Stars of the night: Sram's Expertise: I didn't have a time i wasn't unhappy to see it and was always a strong swing in play weather it brought in Removal, oaths or Liliana Oath of Gideon & Oath of Liliana: Both were great protecting walkers all 4 of there modes are so good here.
Underperformers: Fatal Push: Was ok vs GB but a lot of the time they were dead might go down to 2 not sold on moving to side yet though. Quarantine Field: I always had a better option in hand and not being instant speed kinda hurts may cut or move to SB.
Over all i was really pleased how the deck ran i did have to mull a few times but maybe with a little more mana tweaking I can avoid that. I could use a little more direction in my Sb but I never played there before so didn't know what to expect. I decided to go creatureless so game 1 they would be holding most of all there removal and it would be just dead cards. Then in games 2-3 bring some in and they be safe if they were not seen the game before, and work a lot of the time. Even playing just a few creature against most decks the creature will die cuz they are holding so much that it is a waste of a play for us when we could be dropping more walkers or just holding up our own removal to protect our game plan.
Any Questions about any of my chooses feel free to ask I monitor his thread regularly. As i'm always looking for ways to improve and help others
Would you say Heart of Kiran has a place here as at least a 2 of? It seems like it will play well with Planeswalkers and it's an artifact for disintegration.
I have tried it but was not a fan again it eats removal that other wise is dead in there hand and I'm looking to ult my walkers they will end games faster then Heart of Kiran. Also if you look at Sram's Expertise they are artifact servos so the work with the Unlicensed Disintegration.
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Im an active trader on MOTL my handle there is Vito
Happened upon this post and I myself run Mardu Walkers. I was looking at your sideboard and saw that you don't have enough answers for a possible R/G Pummeller match up. Personally, the meta at the store I play at runs a lot of those decks, but since the Pro-tour B/G Winding Constrictor decks are becoming more popular. I just thought that running some Blessed Alliances would be better to replace the 2x Mind Rot and 1x Transgress the Mind. Just a thought.
My mainboard removal consist of Blessed Alliances, but again, it's the meta where I play that dictates the need.
Here's the list I'm going to test going forward. Did some theorycrafting and testing and it seems promising. I believe the amount of removal I have will be great in any Saheeli, or GB Counters matchup which I think will be the two heavy hitters of the meta at Grand Prix Pittsburgh. Then against control or combo I can board to have more hand hate to disrupt them or Fumigates for the creature matchups. With the addition of Filigree Familiar; To the Slaughter, Pick the Brain, and Descend Upon the Sinful will be much easier to have Delirium for. Especially considering we have just about every card type. Moved an Ob Nixilis to the sideboard because I have a ton of cheaper instant speed removal and having two led to some clunky draws that had too much high cost walkers in it. The addition of Filigree Familiar makes Liliana, the Last Hope have more hits which led me to go up to 3. Now that the deck is essentially splashing white and mostly black red I have retooled the manabase to have more Evolving Wilds for delirium and Smoldering Marsh.
They cut 1 Felidar Guardian, 2 Revolutionary Rebuff, 3 Shock, and 1 Radiant Flames for 1 Nahiri, the Harbinger, 2 Immolating Glare, 1 Glimmer of Genius, 1 Anticipate, and 2 Fumigate. This is likely a reaction to BG decks and I believe that all of the changes are good for us, with the latest version encouraging an aggressive response more than before, because they have more instant-speed draw and 1 less combo piece. They also cut 2/7ths of their main-deck counter spells, making planeswalkers more likely to resolve.
While it is better now, I believe it's still our worst matchup, so I'm looking into ways to improve it. (I've also gotten 2nd at two GPTs to the deck now...) Looking at their sideboard, I'd expect them to bring in the 3 Spell Queller, 2 Quarantine Field, 2 Negate, and maybe the 2nd Nahiri, the Harbinger if they think we'll board in Authority of the Consuls, and then definitely bring out 2 Fumigate and 2 Immolating Glare. The other 4 are iffy, but I'd expect 2 Oath of Jace and 1 of each card draw spell. That leaves them with little creature interaction, especially for cmc 5+ (another case for Goblin Dark-Dwellers), and even less artifact interaction after resolution.
I would say our worst match up, by far, is UB Control. I mean, it was not even close. I took one game when he stalled on four lands for about five turns, but other than that I never really felt like I was going to put much pressure on. They have a counterspell for almost anything, kill spells for our planeswalkers, card drawing ... all make it a tough battle.
Most people are probably saying, "Well ascribe, no one plays UB Control in my shop!" Unfortunately for me, A LOT of people play it in my LGS. Am I wrong, or is this just a ridiculous match up for us that we really have little chance of winning? Or has someone found the magic bullet?
I have shelved the deck until UB Control leaves the scene, especially after I Transgressed the mind twice for two Torrential Gearhulks and cast Lost Legacy to remove his four Disallows from his deck and still lost that game.
I've played against two ub control lists since Aether Revolt came out. I've found that game one is kind of even because we both have a ton of removal spells that aren't as relevant. After game one though it goes to my favor because of transgress the mind, mind rot, and pick the brain. Goblin dark dwellers and Liliana help me fire these critical spells over and over. Pick the Brain was Lost Legacy in my sideboard before, but with the addition of filigree familiar and evolving wilds I can turn delirium on quite easily.
Interesting. Do you bring in the discard suite against jeskai saheeli as well? I need to rework this deck if I am going to keep playing it at my shop. With the configuration I had, the deck was very weak to UB control but 8 discard spells might provide enough oomph.
Oh, and on the advice of a friend I ran heart of Kiran and was very disappointed.
I originally had Authority of the Counsel which really wasn't helping that much. It stops them from comboing, but they can just remove it and combo. Better off trying to Pick the Brain a combo piece or just hold up removal. Also better if they try and be sneaky and board into a more controlling build which discard is just fine against. With my current build I would cut my sorcery speed removal and bring in the discard package and more instant speed removal. Probably also cut some of the less relevant walkers like Lil or a nahiri or two. Just depends on if I'm on the play or draw because on the play I want to curve out into pressure with my walkers.
Alright, it just looks like I've just been playing the Saheeli matchup wrong. You just have to assume they don't have it (there's only about a 30% chance they have both in their hand on turn 6, assuming no card draw spells, and a 39% chance of having Felidar Guardian on turn 4 after dropping Saheeli Rai) and keep casting walkers until one sticks and only after that hold up mana to stop it. They have a hard time dealing with one once it hits the board and if they are countering them, they don't have the mana to cast Anticipate or Glimmer of Genius to dig for more counters or combo pieces. If you ever get a Chandra, Torch of Defiance up to 7 loyalty, they pretty much just have to let you cast whatever spells you want so they can hold up Disallow for the ult, and then you can just plus her after that. In game one they have so much garbage in their deck that they can only get rid of with Oath of Jace (which they only have 2 of, but can flicker with Guardian) and Nahiri, the Harbinger (which is hard for them to keep on the board), and both of those require that they cast them on their turn.
I could just be playing it wrong on their end now, though, since I'm playing both sides. I'm having them counter all the walkers and try to clear them off the board, but it might be better for them to just ignore what we're doing and focus on digging, letting us cast all the walkers we want, then try to combo out on turn 8 with Negate backup (except maybe early Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Chandra, Torch of Defiance, because those can kill them before then). Also, I've only managed to get 5 preboard test games in so far, which Walkers won 4 of.
Here's the list I'm going to test going forward. Did some theorycrafting and testing and it seems promising. I believe the amount of removal I have will be great in any Saheeli, or GB Counters matchup which I think will be the two heavy hitters of the meta at Grand Prix Pittsburgh. Then against control or combo I can board to have more hand hate to disrupt them or Fumigates for the creature matchups. With the addition of Filigree Familiar; To the Slaughter, Pick the Brain, and Descend Upon the Sinful will be much easier to have Delirium for. Especially considering we have just about every card type. Moved an Ob Nixilis to the sideboard because I have a ton of cheaper instant speed removal and having two led to some clunky draws that had too much high cost walkers in it. The addition of Filigree Familiar makes Liliana, the Last Hope have more hits which led me to go up to 3. Now that the deck is essentially splashing white and mostly black red I have retooled the manabase to have more Evolving Wilds for delirium and Smoldering Marsh.
I like tha taste of this deck, maybe going for a versión not delirium dependant but anyway I'll try this one. Can you help me with your SB plan vs these decks?
UB Control
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Saheeli
G/B Aggro or Delirium
UB control:
in discard, to the slaughter, ob nix
Out grasp of dark, oath of chandra, and a few unlicensed disintegration.
Saheeli:
You have to get a feel for what kind they are. If they are more controlling you want to board similarly to UB control except keep some grasp of darkness in. If they are more midrangey with spell quellers and etc. You want to keep your cheap removal in and shave your top end. Assuming the more dedicated combo version that runs torrential gearhulk I'd do this
In discard, to the slaughter, anguished unmaking if I suspect fevered visions
Out 2 grasp, oath of chandra, oath of lil, descend upon the sinful, Liliana.
GB delirium:
Out transgress, 1 Sorin, and trim a Liliana or two
In fumigate, 1-3 Kalitas, and ob nix/to the slaughter depending on if you expect walkers or phat creatures.
I don't always sideboard the same way, but these are the general choices I make. Sometimes you have to adapt as people may have tech cards or alternate builds. I also didn't list jeskai control because I probably will just assume they are saheeli.
I feel like the best bet with all these counterspell-heavy decks is to try to get under them instead of taking so much tempo loss to cast hand disruption. I cut all my discard, put in 4 Aethergeode Miner, and went up to 3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar. Oaths and Blessed Alliance out, all the creatures come in, along with Liliana the Last Hope to keep bringing them back. Went from about 3-9 win-loss to 4-4 against Saheeli control with that change.
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Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
On the bright side, I feel like we're pretty strongly favored against the BG decks.
2 Archangel Avacyn
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Oath of Liliana
3 Blessed Alliance
3 Radiant Flames
3 Oath of Chandra
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Painful Truths
3 Evolving Wilds
3 Smoldering Marsh
3 Shambling Vent
3 Inspiring Vantage
3 Concealed Courtyard
1 Needle Spires
5 Mountain
3 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Fumigate
4 Transgress the Mind
3 Lost Legacy
3 Declaration in Stone
3 Authority of the Consuls
I feel I really want to go for a heavy planeswalker/creatureless deck so 16 planeswalkers is the correct number of walkers. Archangel Avacyn has treated me well but will replace them with Heart of Kiran. Need to think of a card to cut to put a third one in though but will try with just two first. May remove an Oath of Chandra. I like keeping Anguished Unmaking in but I can see the benefits of replacing them with Unlicensed Disintegration for extra value since this deck will now have a worthy vehicle. Will test once I get some copies. Blessed Alliance is too good. Since now I don't need Stasis Snare, this card has been increased for 3 of with great success.
Matchups have been good. I do not fear control at all and with 16 walkers burning their counters. Early fast aggro is still a weakness but it isn't as bad as when Smuggler's Copter was around. Once walkers start coming in, the opponent spends most of their time dealing with them, which is fine since even if they go down, there are replacements waiting. I rarely get to ultimate but it was nice to ultimate Nahiri for Avacyn to swing, then flash her back in during my opponent's turn. By removing Avacyn I will lose a Nahiri ultimate target, but that does not mean my opponent knows that and they will always aim to kill Nahiri first.
The metagame is still new and changing. We will see how this deck will fare.
[Commander: Kess, Dissident Mage]
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Having said that, I have been noticing that Radiant Flames has been pretty weak as of late mainboard. It was mostly there for super fast aggro which had me dead before turn 4 but that has not been a thing as of late. Having Shock instead may be a better card to use to keep in theme on what the deck is trying to do... and to deal with Saheeli.
Will do some testing.
[Commander: Kess, Dissident Mage]
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
[Commander: Kess, Dissident Mage]
Here's the list I'm going to run tomorrow at a GPT
2x Anguished Unmaking
4x Grasp of Darkness
Sorcery (4)
2x Painful Truths
2x Transgress the Mind
Enchantment (6)
3x Oath of Chandra
3x Oath of Liliana
Planeswalker (15)
3x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Nahiri, the Harbinger
2x Ob Nixilis Reignited
2x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2x Goblin Dark-Dwellers
1x Noxious Gearhulk
Land (26)
4x Concealed Courtyard
3x Evolving Wilds
4x Foreboding Ruins
2x Inspiring Vantage
2x Mountain
1x Plains
4x Shambling Vent
2x Smoldering Marsh
4x Swamp
3x Authority of the Consuls
2x Fumigate
3x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2x Lost Legacy
2x Mind Rot
1x Ruinous Path
2x Transgress the Mind
I'll report how I do.
I updated the original post to reflect the current meta changes and card options. If you see anything I missed let me know
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Heart of Kiran felt very weak. While it could be good if you are ahead, anywhere else it felt like a wasted card. Bringing the card early just gives time for the opponent to prep a proper answer. There are all kinds of removal floating around, including oddly enough, Stasis Snare. I often thought that this card would fall out of flavor with Emrakul being out of standard but it is still being widely used, in particularly the GW lists. It is a novelty to use loyalty to crew but in the end, the card benefits from having both loyalty and creature based crewing available, something that this deck cannot provide.
Shock was okay. Stops the Saheeli combo and can take out a create here and there but its value starts to fall off later in the game. I do not want to completely write off the card but will start considering alternatives in the black varieties:)
Unlicensed Disintegration sounded good in theory but never really got full value out of it due to how frail Heart of Kiran is. Will bring back in Anguish Unmaking.
As much as I would like this deck to be creatureless, it felt an empty void not having Archangel Avacyn in deck. Its good to always have something to ultimate Nahiri into. I was recommended Linvala, the Preserver as another target as well. Considering the amount of agro that is out there, there is a good chance to be behind in both life and creatures. For now I may just go to Avacyn. I know this goes against with what I said with Heart of Kiran, but there is a difference in giving an opponent time to get an answer to a vehicle than flashing a creature unexpectedly and provide indestructibility to the few tokens we manage to make.
[Commander: Kess, Dissident Mage]
4 Gideon, ally of zendikar
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Liliana, the last hope
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Enchantments
2 Oath of Liliana
2 Oath of Gideon
2 Stasis Snare
1 Quarantine Field
Spells
3 Fatal Push
3 Unlicensed Disintegration
2 Grasp of Darkness
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Fumigate
2 Sram's Expertise
1 Radiant Flames
3 Concealed Courtyard
2 Inspiring Vantage
2 Shambling Vent
2 Smoldering Marsh
2 Foreboding Ruins
1 Westvale Abby
1 Evolving wilds
5 Swamp
4 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
2 Kalitas, traitor of Ghet
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Authority of the Consuls
3 Transgress the mind
1 declaration in stone
1 Radiant Flames
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Shock
Round 1: GB Delieum 2-1
* I feel Favratable in this match up. His win was more gas then I had answers. My 2 Wins came off Liliana, the Last Hope Ult and a Sram's Expertise into Oath of Gideon Fallowed by a Gideon Ult
Round 2: Jeski Saheeli 2-1
* He was play a version that wasn't dedicated to the combo it was an agro version with it against this version i feel favorable with the lack of counter spells. His Win was a combo off i drew all walkers with no removal, My wins were with a Chandra ult + OB ult, and then on the back of my tokens again.
Round 3: BW Control 2-1
* It was a basic BW control nothing crazy again Favorable. His win was with hitting 3 Archangel Avacyn kept the tempo his way saving his creatures. My Wins were from Him getting stuck on Land and just over powered him with walkers.
Round 4: UR Saheeri 1-2
* This was a dedicated control version of the deck and i felt it being a 50/50. His wins were combos but the game 3 came to both of us in top deck and his came up first before my removal. My win was on my SB made me more aggressive and he was on his heal most of the game.
Stars of the night:
Sram's Expertise: I didn't have a time i wasn't unhappy to see it and was always a strong swing in play weather it brought in Removal, oaths or Liliana
Oath of Gideon & Oath of Liliana: Both were great protecting walkers all 4 of there modes are so good here.
Underperformers:
Fatal Push: Was ok vs GB but a lot of the time they were dead might go down to 2 not sold on moving to side yet though.
Quarantine Field: I always had a better option in hand and not being instant speed kinda hurts may cut or move to SB.
Over all i was really pleased how the deck ran i did have to mull a few times but maybe with a little more mana tweaking I can avoid that. I could use a little more direction in my Sb but I never played there before so didn't know what to expect. I decided to go creatureless so game 1 they would be holding most of all there removal and it would be just dead cards. Then in games 2-3 bring some in and they be safe if they were not seen the game before, and work a lot of the time. Even playing just a few creature against most decks the creature will die cuz they are holding so much that it is a waste of a play for us when we could be dropping more walkers or just holding up our own removal to protect our game plan.
Any Questions about any of my chooses feel free to ask I monitor his thread regularly. As i'm always looking for ways to improve and help others
Im an active trader on MOTL my handle there is Vito
Here's the list I'm going to run tomorrow at a GPT
2x Anguished Unmaking
4x Grasp of Darkness
Sorcery (4)
2x Painful Truths
2x Transgress the Mind
Enchantment (6)
3x Oath of Chandra
3x Oath of Liliana
Planeswalker (15)
3x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Nahiri, the Harbinger
2x Ob Nixilis Reignited
2x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2x Goblin Dark-Dwellers
1x Noxious Gearhulk
Land (26)
4x Concealed Courtyard
3x Evolving Wilds
4x Foreboding Ruins
2x Inspiring Vantage
2x Mountain
1x Plains
4x Shambling Vent
2x Smoldering Marsh
4x Swamp
3x Authority of the Consuls
2x Fumigate
3x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2x Lost Legacy
2x Mind Rot
1x Ruinous Path
2x Transgress the Mind
Game 1 - I was able to just jam planeswalkers and he didn't have time to combo before I won with my walkers.
Game 2 - He brought out his combo so I had some dead cards. The game was really grindy and he eventually landed a Dragonmaster Outcast I had no answer for right away. By the time I cleared it off the board he had 3 dragons.
Game 3 - Long game. Ended in a draw with me in a commanding position and removal held up. Draws are to be expected in this kind of matchup though as they can be quite grindy and long.
Round 2: Pia's Revolution Combo
Game 1 - I transgressed two Paradoxical Outcomes and Exiled his Pia's Revolution with Nahiri.
Game 2 - Longer game that ended with me smashing him with Gideon every turn until he died. Transgress the Mind was great here.
Round 3: UR Dynavolt Control
Game 1: I eventually powered through his counterspells and won with walkers.
Game 2: This went long, but in the end Transgress the Mind and Mind Rot were critical to clearing his hand and Chandra gave me a huge advantage once I finally got a planeswalker on the board.
Round 4: Mardu Planeswalkers (Cauldrath)
Game 1: He played Heart of Kiran and planeswalkers and I never drew an out for Heart so he steamrolled me and all the planeswalkers I played.
Game 2: He was able to stablize the board on turn 5 and I was never able to take it back and got beat down by back to back planeswalkers.
Round 5: GB Delirium/Midrange
Game 1: He kept a double swamp hand and never drew more lands.
Game 2: I killed everything he played and I was able to stick a Nahiri that eventually filtered me to other walkers.
Top 8 Round 1: Saheeli Combo
Game 1: Transgress the Mind kept him off the combo and I was able to jam threats and Goblin Dark-Dwellers to continually pressure his counterspells and hand.
Game 2: I got stuck on 3 lands for a while and he countered my Painful Truths By the time I started playing my 4 Mana walkers I was too far behind and he countered everything I played and combo'd off eventually.
Game 3: This was a close game. I had an Authority of the Consuls on the board, but eventually died to his Torrential Gearhulk, Saheeli damage, and manlands. I had Sorin in my hand the whole game and never was able to get my sixth land. The turn that ended the game I cast a transgress the mind and he Spell Queller'd it. Then I cast Grasp of Darkness on Queller and he used gearhulk to counter it so I was dead.
My decklist moving forward:
4 Filigree Familiar
2 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
Spells:28
4 Grasp of Darkness
3 Oath of Chandra
2 Transgress the Mind
3 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Oath of Liliana
1 To the Slaughter
3 Unlicensed Disintegration
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
4 Concealed Courtyard
3 Evolving Wilds
4 Foreboding Ruins
2 Inspiring Vantage
2 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Shambling Vent
2 Smoldering Marsh
4 Swamp
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Lost Legacy
2 Mind Rot
1 Ruinous Path
1 To the Slaughter
2 Fumigate
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
I have tried it but was not a fan again it eats removal that other wise is dead in there hand and I'm looking to ult my walkers they will end games faster then Heart of Kiran. Also if you look at Sram's Expertise they are artifact servos so the work with the Unlicensed Disintegration.
Im an active trader on MOTL my handle there is Vito
My mainboard removal consist of Blessed Alliances, but again, it's the meta where I play that dictates the need.
4 Filigree Familiar
2 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
Spells:28
4 Grasp of Darkness
3 Oath of Chandra
2 Transgress the Mind
3 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Oath of Liliana
1 To the Slaughter
3 Unlicensed Disintegration
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Descend upon the Sinful
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Foreboding Ruins
2 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Shambling Vent
3 Smoldering Marsh
4 Swamp
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Mind Rot
2 Pick the Brain
1 To the Slaughter
2 Fumigate
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=111041
to the one that came in first this week:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=111237
They cut 1 Felidar Guardian, 2 Revolutionary Rebuff, 3 Shock, and 1 Radiant Flames for 1 Nahiri, the Harbinger, 2 Immolating Glare, 1 Glimmer of Genius, 1 Anticipate, and 2 Fumigate. This is likely a reaction to BG decks and I believe that all of the changes are good for us, with the latest version encouraging an aggressive response more than before, because they have more instant-speed draw and 1 less combo piece. They also cut 2/7ths of their main-deck counter spells, making planeswalkers more likely to resolve.
While it is better now, I believe it's still our worst matchup, so I'm looking into ways to improve it. (I've also gotten 2nd at two GPTs to the deck now...) Looking at their sideboard, I'd expect them to bring in the 3 Spell Queller, 2 Quarantine Field, 2 Negate, and maybe the 2nd Nahiri, the Harbinger if they think we'll board in Authority of the Consuls, and then definitely bring out 2 Fumigate and 2 Immolating Glare. The other 4 are iffy, but I'd expect 2 Oath of Jace and 1 of each card draw spell. That leaves them with little creature interaction, especially for cmc 5+ (another case for Goblin Dark-Dwellers), and even less artifact interaction after resolution.
So, right now I think our best sideboard options are:
Instants: Shock, Unlicensed Disintegration, Anguished Unmaking
Hand Disruption: Harsh Scrutiny, Transgress the Mind, Lost Legacy
Creatures: Thermo-Alchemist, Thalia, Heretic Cathar, Walking Ballista
Artifacts: Implement of Combustion
Enchantments: Authority of the Consuls
I think I'm going to try an even split of Thermo-Alchemist and Thalia, Heretic Cathar for now, but I'm going to try to get some testing in this week.
Most people are probably saying, "Well ascribe, no one plays UB Control in my shop!" Unfortunately for me, A LOT of people play it in my LGS. Am I wrong, or is this just a ridiculous match up for us that we really have little chance of winning? Or has someone found the magic bullet?
I have shelved the deck until UB Control leaves the scene, especially after I Transgressed the mind twice for two Torrential Gearhulks and cast Lost Legacy to remove his four Disallows from his deck and still lost that game.
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Oh, and on the advice of a friend I ran heart of Kiran and was very disappointed.
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
I could just be playing it wrong on their end now, though, since I'm playing both sides. I'm having them counter all the walkers and try to clear them off the board, but it might be better for them to just ignore what we're doing and focus on digging, letting us cast all the walkers we want, then try to combo out on turn 8 with Negate backup (except maybe early Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Chandra, Torch of Defiance, because those can kill them before then). Also, I've only managed to get 5 preboard test games in so far, which Walkers won 4 of.
I like tha taste of this deck, maybe going for a versión not delirium dependant but anyway I'll try this one. Can you help me with your SB plan vs these decks?
UB Control
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Saheeli
G/B Aggro or Delirium
Thanks a lot for your help!
in discard, to the slaughter, ob nix
Out grasp of dark, oath of chandra, and a few unlicensed disintegration.
Saheeli:
You have to get a feel for what kind they are. If they are more controlling you want to board similarly to UB control except keep some grasp of darkness in. If they are more midrangey with spell quellers and etc. You want to keep your cheap removal in and shave your top end. Assuming the more dedicated combo version that runs torrential gearhulk I'd do this
In discard, to the slaughter, anguished unmaking if I suspect fevered visions
Out 2 grasp, oath of chandra, oath of lil, descend upon the sinful, Liliana.
GB delirium:
Out transgress, 1 Sorin, and trim a Liliana or two
In fumigate, 1-3 Kalitas, and ob nix/to the slaughter depending on if you expect walkers or phat creatures.
I don't always sideboard the same way, but these are the general choices I make. Sometimes you have to adapt as people may have tech cards or alternate builds. I also didn't list jeskai control because I probably will just assume they are saheeli.
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog