This is what I'm testing for FNM right now, it's a budget deck but I think it can put up quite a fight. It looks kind of clunky on paper but it can have some awesome draws, clear the hand by turn 4 and hit really hard. The best part is that it has game after turn 4 due to the 3 embalm manticores, as well as the 6 hasted creatures that you can topdeck and the insult//injury deal.
The reason the Sunscorched deserts are in there is to add the extra points of life loss, I hate how aggro decks always manage to get the opp down to 1 or 2 life and then stall, so with this land it will be easy to finish them off.
I'm waiting to receive my (card) glorybringer (/card) play set and then I'll take out the 3 flameblade adepts and put the 3 dragons in.
The adepts don't do much and I don't need them on the first or second turn, after some play testing.
Injury is a 3cmc sorcery that can only be cast from a graveyard. I don't see how that even close to being comparable to a 1 cmc instant in your hand.
I was being facetious, of course, I don't need Shock, it doesn't fit in the deck, there's nothing to take out to put them in. My main point is that the land's ability can't be countered and it may also be unexpected by the opponent when you play the land for the first time.
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Soul-scar Mage looks to be losing his spot in these lists to Village Messenger. It appears the calculation is that haste plus the possible flip is better than prowess. The list with the heaviest burn focus drops the messenger for Insolent Neonate.
Bloodrage Brawler has also vanished. Looks like the built in 1-for-2 is too much for decks that aren't built around the graveyard.
The spiciest two drop is probably Thermo-Alchemist, showing up in the spiciest deck overall. I'd be curious to find out what ratio of
falter effects to burn spells is needed to make Thermo-Alchemist the right pick over Kari Zev.
Ahn-Crop Crasher is a beast, showing up 15 times across four decks. One drop into two drop into Crasher is a brutal start.
The playset of Ramunap Ruins is borderline mandatory. Once you go in that direction Sunscorched Desert has a lot of utility value. These decks all have a lot of colorless mana costs in their two and three drops so the desert isn't too painful.
The standard seems to be 21 lands, with 2 to 4 Sunscorched Desert. A couple Desert of the Fervent show up in the burn-focused list. I can see the appeal of more reach with the ruins but it still feels wrong to play taplands in this archetype.
I like how there seems to be a lot of variety in what is playable with this deck, as seen in the different builds above.
I am currently working on this build, and have not yet played it. It's one of the lowest in average cmc I've seen. I want to get plays every Turn-1 and Turn-2, and I would rather be casting stuff off madness on turn 3 or surging bushwacker or just playing 2 creatures over a single 3-drop, with similar approach to turn 4. Because of this, I'm playing one less land than the 21 that seems to be standard.
One thing that occurred to me... The deck has 8 sources of colorless mana, which does open the door to things like Reality Smasher. I think in the main build, my game plan doesn't include casting 5-cmc spells. But I wonder about sideboarding in things like that, or Thought-Knot Seer, for certain circumstances. Those are both decent cards against control decks.
Thought-Knot is very strong. I think if you want to go big eldrazi it makes more sense to look like the lists running 24+ lands and Glorybringer.
Eldrazi Obligator gives you a 3/1 haste guy with some colorless using upside that fits decently well into the deck.
I do think that if you are going hard on the small attacker plan you want to max out your Ahn-Crop Crasher count and play some number of Cartouche of Zeal. The falter effect is huge and the cartouche helps with bushwhacker. Crasher is also a reasonable play after getting hit with a sweeper.
Thought-Knot is very strong. I think if you want to go big eldrazi it makes more sense to look like the lists running 24+ lands and Glorybringer.
Eldrazi Obligator gives you a 3/1 haste guy with some colorless using upside that fits decently well into the deck.
I do think that if you are going hard on the small attacker plan you want to max out your Ahn-Crop Crasher count and play some number of Cartouche of Zeal. The falter effect is huge and the cartouche helps with bushwhacker. Crasher is also a reasonable play after getting hit with a sweeper.
Cartouche is something I've wanted to fit in but man, there are so many things I feel are good for this deck and not enough room (as evidenced by the number of variants above).
Okay, what if... I swap out the 2 Kari Zev for 2 more Ahn-Crop Crasher? Kari Zev is a very good creature, but it has no synergy with what the deck does. I try to exploit the madness stuff in my deck, and the token doesn't even get the +1/+0 from bushwacker. And then I'm not sure if Shock is high enough impact when the deck is effectively already playing 8 Lightning Bolts. Maybe swap Shock for Cartouche?
I've played against the deck a few times with RG Pummeler energy. Where the red deck seems to run into trouble is if you have early removal and follow up with slightly bigger creatures.
If I were going to war with a mono-red aggro deck I would probably go with something like:
Something like that. I think you really want to consistently get damage across early, have hasty dudes to send in off the top, and reach to finish off the game. Not sure about the sideboard. Chandra seems weaker as an anti-control card in the world of Hour of Devastation but I don't know that there's anything better out there.
I've been toying around with mono-red on breaks from fine-tuning my pet deck. I have a couple questions that I'd be interested to hear opinions about.
1) Can a 22 land base support 2 Hostile Desert? I'm thinking 12 Mountain, 4 Ruin, 4 Sunscorched, 2 Hostile.
2) I've seen Key to the City in more than one list between the 5-0's and the online PTQ. Can the deck handle the tempo loss? In theory it does several things you want to be doing and compliments Hazoret the Fervent in a light madness sub-theme. Maybe the two at a 2/2 split pulls Fiery Temper off the bench and into a starting slot?
3) None of the lists run Lathnu Hellion. I get that energy generation isn't where you want to be, so its doomed after two swings, but it still strikes me as one of your better T3 plays and certainly one of your best draws off the top from T5 onward outside of Hazoret or a kicke Obligator. What am I missing?
I like your build as a well-rounded entry. I'll probably run it a few hands and then try something like -3 Trial, -3 Cartouche, -1 Kari, -2 Messenger, -1 Mountain -> +2 Key, +2 Hazoret, +4 Temper, +2 Hostile Desert.
The builds really are all over the place right now. Thanks to you and everyone else who took he time to sort through the data and try to make sense of it all.
The math says you need at least 14 colored sources to have a 90% chance of seeing one on turn one assuming you mulligan 6 or 7 card one landers. This seems like a deck that keeps a decent chunk of one land hands so you might want the numbers to be a little higher. Sixteen should work, though you are giving up a few percentage points.
The only way you're getting lands in the yard is through Ramunap Ruins. I can see Hostile Desert out of the side for very grindy matchups but I'm a little skeptical about the utility main deck.
Key feels like a sideboard card to me. It looks like the trend has been to increase consistency by giving up on madness/reanimation synergies, and the unblockability is lackluster in a lot of matchups.
Hellion is competing for space with Ahn-Crop Crasher, Hanweir Garrison, and Eldrazi Obligator. I don't think it's wrong to play it over the Obligator or Garrison, but you can't play too many 3+ drops. The deck really wants to have 11+ damage in by the end of turn 3. If things go at all well your best draw T5 should be an incendiary flow for the win.
This is all just me theorycrafting. I would recommend picking the 5-0 list you like the best and playing it for a while before tweaking to fit your preferences.
ETA: I took the list I gave above through a friendly league and went 5-0, 10-1 in games. The one loss was a one lander where I never drew land #2. Deck is sweet.
Sideboarding:
Control: -cartouches, +4 drop of choice
Midrange: leave as is; if shock has no targets take it out for 4 drop of choice
Aggro: -all one drops, -cartouches, + everything
I've been playing this deck since last week that HOU was available online. Deck is super strong. I haven't found a deck where I certainly feel that I'm the underdog. Of course my record ain't flawless, but most of my losses are due to mana issues. My record as of last night was 38-17 in competitive leagues.
I started with a super budget version, and just from selling those chests, I already got 3x Chandra, Torch of Defiance. I've been tweaking the list, and I'm currently very happy with a list I 5-0'd on tuesday. List is as follows:
EDIT:
No idea on how to post decklists, lol. Image in attachments.
This marks the first appearance of Bloodrage Brawler in one of these lists. We also see a Lathnu Hellion popping up as another finisher. People seem to be standardizing on the full 8 deserts in the manabase. Outside of Chandra the deck only costs $30 so I'd expect to keep seeing it pop up.
In the interests of providing a little more content, I'll give a report of my run through a friendly league. The deck:
Game 1: I keep a one lander and wind up curving out beautifully. Gorger into Courier + Gorger into Trial to kill his Servant of the Conduit into Gorger + Cartouche to hit past his Tireless Tracker. He's at three life after turn 4 staring down four creatures and knowing I have Trial of Zeal in hand.
Sideboard: -1 shock, +1 Hazoret
Game 2: I keep a one lander, never draw a second land, and get crushed by longtusk cub.
Game 3: I keep another one lander. Gorger into Courier sends three damage at him on turn 2. I draw land on turn three for a Kari Zev, which gets Abraded. I draw another land turn four and shock his Refiner, following up with another Kari Zev. He plays a Bristling Hydra at 10 life. I play Earthshaker Kenra and send the team. He blocks Gorger and goes to four. Next turn Sunscorched Desert + Incendiary Flow finish him off.
Round 2: GWr Midrange (2-0)
Game 1: I'm on the draw and lead with Courier, then Courier + Gorger. The Couriers eat a declaration in stone. Khenra + Gorger swing in next turn. He plays Gideon, I flow the knight and kill Gideon (opp at 13). Next turn he plays Oath of Nissa revealing Ishkanah and a Servant of the Conduit. Crasher comes down and swings with the team past Servant, knocking him to 6. Fumigate pops him back up to 10.
He has two cards in hand, five lands including a Westvale Abbey in play. I have Gorger, Cartouche, Trial of Zeal in hand, two ruins, two clues, and a mountain in play. I rip a desert and play Trial plus Gorger. I draw another desert, Cartouche up Gorger and swing to trade with a Spider (fearing land + inspector to flip abbey), then play Trial to put him to 2 with Ruins on deck. GG.
Sideboarding: none.
Game 2: I curve Courier into Khenra. Courier eats a dec stone, I play another Khenra and beat him to 12. He plays nothing so I EoT shock his face (Trial, Flow, Obligator in hand, 2xruins + mountain in play). I swing with Khenra to take him to 6 and play Trial to knock him to 3. He fumigates back up to 5, so I play Obligator and beat him to 2. Next turn I flow his face, ggs.
Round 3: Grixis Control (2-0)
Game 1: I curve messenger (flips) into messenger + Gorger. He lightnings the flipped messenger to go to 18 then passes, letting the other messenger flip. Ahn-Crop Crasher joins the party and beats him to 11. Turn 4 Khenra joins in and beats him to 2. He glimmers EoT then scoops.
Game 2: I have to mull a 2 desert hand and wind up with a sketchy six (courier, courier, shock, mountain, mountain, sunscorched desert). I draw Chandra then a messenger. Opponent Abrades the messenger and lets the Bomats beat in. Gorger joins the party on turn 3. I shock face EoT and fire off the flow I draw pre-combat for max Bomat value, attacking him down to five at the end of turn four. I have Chandra in hand, three land in play, and four cards under my first Bomat. He Illuminates, then Glimmers, then concedes. Never had a non-land permanent in play.
Round 4: Mono-B Zombies (2-0)
Game 1: I'm on the play and lead with Gorger. He plays Dread Wanderer, we start racing, and he plays Metallic Mimic, which I shock. Turn 3 I play Crasher and swing to put him to 12. I have two mountains and a desert in play with flow, shock, and ruins in hand. He plays Lord of the Accursed and keeps attacking with the Wanderer. I exert Crasher, play Kari Zev, and flow his face (life 15-4 at this point). He plays Diregraf Colossus, pushes Kari Zev, and swings with Wanderer. I draw and play a desert and pass. He plays another Colossus and sends the Wanderer (9-3). End of turn I shock him to 1, then untap and throw a desert at him.
I was terrified of Dark Salvation the entire game and count myself lucky he didn't draw it.
Sideboard: -4 Village Messenger, -4 Falkenrath Gorger, -3 Cartouche of Zeal, -4 Bomat Courier, + everything.
Game 2: I magma spray his dread wanderer, then flow his relentless dead. He has no turn 3 land drop or play. I play Ahn-Crop Crasher turn three, then Chandra + Kari Zev turn 4. Kari Zev gets pushed, then he finds land and plays Aethersphere Harvester. I play Firebird + Kari Zev (glorybringer in hand, Chandra at 6) and swing to take him to 8. He plays Lord of the Accursed and scoops. Chandra would have killed it and Crasher would have exerted to falter the Harvester on my turn.
This matchup feels a lot better post sideboard.
Round 5: Mono-R Aggro (2-0)
Opponent looks to be on the 2-tix red variant.
Game 1: Hand is kind of meh; messenger, messenger, obligator, shock, mountain, mountain, desert. Can't pitch it, though. Messengers beat in. I shock his gorger, then draw and play Trial to kill his Bloodrage Brawler. He plays a Crasher and swings, taking the life total to 16-15 in my advantage. I play a desert and beat him to 12, letting the villagers flip. He attacks with Crasher and plays Built to Smash; I shock in response. He flows my messenger, flipping the other one back. I draw and play Crasher (Ruins, Desert, 2 mountain in play, obligator in hand) and attack, making it 16-8. He has two cards in hand. He flows my crasher and plays Bomat Courier.
I draw Sunscorched Desert. I play it and play a kicked obligator, taking his courier and swinging to take him down to 2, facing an active ruins next turn. GG.
Sideboard: -4 Village Messenger, -4 Falkenrath Gorger, -3 Cartouche of Zeal, -4 Bomat Courier, + everything.
Game 2: I pitch a seven that is five land plus two Trial of Zeal. The six is mountain, ruins, desert, shock, abrade, Crasher. I bottom a mountain and draw Crasher followed by Glorybringer. The first play to the board is his turn 3 crasher, which I shock. My crasher gets in a hit, as does his firebird. I play another crasher and both swing, making it 16-11. He shocks one crasher and plays Hanweir Garrison. Glorybringer flames the Garrison down and, with Crasher, makes it 13-3. He flows my crasher, but a Trial of Zeal off the top ends things. I had Abrade and Shock in hand with Ruins in play, so the result wasn't really in doubt.
Summary
The basic engine of this deck is a flood of cheap creatures, hasty creatures, cheap removal, and falter effects. Taken together they make it very hard to stabilize against us. If an opponent wants to block they have to leave their whole team back which gives us time to burn them out. If they try to race we can generally turn things in our favor with cheap removal and hasty dudes. Being able to get 1-3 uncounterable damage from our lands is wonderful.
The way we lose is if somebody has cheap removal for all of our creatures and then plays big monsters we can't handle. The good news is that most decks in standard don't play that much cheap removal and those that do are pretty susceptible to the go-big sideboard plan (-all one drops, -cartouches, + everything).
I appreciate you taking the time to reply and provide some insight to my questions. I also applaud you for the dedication to do the datamining for the decklists and then post them for everyone's benefit. You are truly doing Hazoret's work.
On a personal note, I feel a bit vindicated that the very cards I was curious about showed up in 5-0 decks the following day. Nice to know I'm not waaaay off base.
On a competitive note, I piloted the list I mentioned earlier at FNM tonight except instead of adding 2 Keys, I only added 1. Finished 4-0-1 with the draw in the finals so we could all go home. Couple thoughts.
The manabase with two Hostile Desert was fine all night. 22 land total may be 1 too many, so its certainly
possible the correct number of manlands is 1. Or even none, though having access to an attacker post sweeper was relevant more than once. Its worth mentioning that Hazoret the Fervent, Bomat Courier, and Key to the City all put lands in the yard. I never lacked GY fodder for activation. Speaking of, Key to the City was fine, but often got sided out. Like, 3 of 4 rounds often. Between that and only running 1, I'm wondering if that slot couldn't be different even though it was useful when it hit the table. Maybe a 3rd Eldrazi Obligator because it often felt like that was my best out to an imposing blocker. Village Messenger over performed to the extent that I think less than 4 is probably just wrong. I almost just want to max out on 1 and 2 drops and run Built to Smash. But that's just me and could be a knee-jerk to playing against 2 W/U Monument builds. I found Monument very difficult to deal with if your opener was a little top heavy or land heavy. Cloudblazer sucks.
So that's my first impressions from the trenches. Perhaps I'll try to organize my thoughts a bit better and post and actual tourney report tomorrow. Happy hunting to you all.
P.S. How many cards does a Courier need to exile before its correct to play off curve just to hold a mana up for the sacrifice? I found myself struggling with that question quite often.
Working in green for Honored Hydra probably means dropping the desert plan and going RG. At that point you're looking at a major reworking of the deck, probably into something like the Noose Constrictor RG Madness. That could be powerful but I think you're giving up a lot of consistency.
I hold up mana for Courier if I would crack it in response to removal. It's not really a numerical thing. It depends on the situation.
After another couple leagues (4-1 and 2-3) I'm very happy with the maindeck. I've lost two game ones in fifteen matches (the 2-3 finish involved two savagings by the RNG against mono-B zombies; the first game one loss required me to brick on two running 27-outers; the second one saw me draw no burn all game long while he curved push into lord into dark salvation into mastery into ifnir deadlands). The big red plan has looked a little shaky in the sideboard against zombies and the mirror. I think going full control might be a mistake. Alternatively, the Akoum Firebirds might not be the cards that I want if I'm going to go big. I've yet to see them be very impressive.
It's so great to see mono-red coming back again. I've been on the Big Red plan for a while, but can see the draw of shrinking the curve again. I'm tempted by the more burn heavy list on the last page, with Thermo-Alchemist. Has anyone given that a run yet? Also looking at SandyDog's list, well, because it's SandyDog.
For game one the Eldrazi Obligator is perfect as the top end of the curve, in my opinion. If you're pinched on mana a 3/1 haste for three can be just fine, but if you're in a position to kick it the damage swing can be absurd. Much less stealing something like a Glorybringer.
In my experience Hazoret is not good in the game one mirror--I've killed a few people by swinging through a still inactive Hazoret. Post sideboard Hazoret is a lot better since the games go longer and we can't really get it off the board.
In other matchups I still like shock better game one. In game one you really want fast damage, cheap removal, and reach. Being able to shock a blocker and play a one drop on turn two is in my opinion much more valuable than dropping Hazoret turn four. The competitive league 5-0s all play four drops though, so I could be wrong.
I tweaked the sideboard a bit and managed a 4-1 league, losing to mono-W monument by flooding out and then mulling to four:
I like Hazoret a lot more than the firebird. Obligator has been good enough that I want access to another in the side, and having the full set of Abrade just feels good.
I played a Scavenger Grounds in the board. I'd recommend at least giving it a shot. It does work against delerium and Prized Amalgam. I even sided it in against control as a 23rd land, additional desert, and a way to take some of the sting out of Gearhulk.
I played a Scavenger Grounds in the board. I'd recommend at least giving it a shot. It does work against delerium and Prized Amalgam. I even sided it in against control as a 23rd land, additional desert, and a way to take some of the sting out of Gearhulk.
I kept overlooking scavenger grounds and I was trying endless sands as land 25 but I think thats perfect for the environment right not dealing with both delirium,eternalize, and the back half of X to Y type cards That helps me alot thanks.
The colorless land is definitely a flex spot. Sea Gate Wreckage is a nod towards the UR control match. If you're not seeing that but you are seeing graveyard recursion then Scavenger Grounds makes sense.
I might actually run Sand Strangler over Chandra, strange as it sounds. It's much better in the mirror. In general we have a hard time keeping Chandra alive. OTOH she is our only way to kill Glorybringer. Maybe a couple Chandra's Defeat in the bonus removal slots.
I ran through another 4-1 league (lost a tight game 3 in the mirror, otherwise 8-0). You get some quick games in with this deck, that's for sure.
Chandra has saved me too many times off the top vs random 4 toughness things. Also she slices, she dices, she makes fresh juice. . . and the ultimate vs control. It does a lot. . .
My experience has been that she comes down as a Cut, then dies. Control decks have an awful lot of ways to interact with planeswalkers (Hour of Devastation/Wandering Fumarole/Cast Out/To the Slaughter/Never // Return). I'd rather have Hazoret against them for more immediate pressure. Against the mirror Sand Strangler seems a lot better. I still have a miser's Chandra in there but I haven't been super excited to draw her lately.
ETA: Chandra's defeat is amazing in the mirror. It's the same tempo swing as shock except you get to kill much bigger stuff with it. Sand Strangler is a good clean 2 for 1.
This is what I'm testing for FNM right now, it's a budget deck but I think it can put up quite a fight. It looks kind of clunky on paper but it can have some awesome draws, clear the hand by turn 4 and hit really hard. The best part is that it has game after turn 4 due to the 3 embalm manticores, as well as the 6 hasted creatures that you can topdeck and the insult//injury deal.
The reason the Sunscorched deserts are in there is to add the extra points of life loss, I hate how aggro decks always manage to get the opp down to 1 or 2 life and then stall, so with this land it will be easy to finish them off.
3 Sunscorched Desert
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
3 Heart-piercer Manticore
3 Flameblade Adept
2 Stromkirk Occultist
3 Lathnu Hellion
3 Furyblade Vampire
2 Bloodrage Brawler
3 Ahn-crop Crasher
3 Bloodmad Vampire
3 Battlefield scavenger
3 Magma spray
2 Insult // Injury
3 Lightning Axe
4 Fiery Temper
2 Wrangle
3 Destructive Tampering
2 Fling
3 Harsh Mentor
2 By Force
I'm waiting to receive my (card) glorybringer (/card) play set and then I'll take out the 3 flameblade adepts and put the 3 dragons in.
The adepts don't do much and I don't need them on the first or second turn, after some play testing.
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I'm running injury instead!
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I was being facetious, of course, I don't need Shock, it doesn't fit in the deck, there's nothing to take out to put them in. My main point is that the land's ability can't be countered and it may also be unexpected by the opponent when you play the land for the first time.
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12 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
2 Sunscorched Desert
4 Bomat Courier
4 Falkenrath Gorger
2 Village Messenger
4 Earthshaker Khenra
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
4 Hanweir Garrison
2 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Incendiary Flow
1 Hanweir Battlements
1 Scavenger Grounds
3 Magma Spray
4 Abrade
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Glorybringer
2 Insult // Injury
4 Ramunap Ruins
4 Sunscorched Desert
4 Bomat Courier
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Village Messenger
4 Earthshaker Khenra
3 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
2 Eldrazi Obligator
2 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Incendiary Flow
3 Cartouche of Zeal
3 Trial of Zeal
1 Mountain
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
2 Magma Spray
3 Abrade
2 Kari Zev's Expertise
1 Akoum Firebird
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Glorybringer
13 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
3 Sunscorched Desert
4 Bomat Courier
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Village Messenger
4 Earthshaker Khenra
3 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
2 Hanweir Garrison
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
2 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Cartouche of Zeal
1 Cradle of the Accursed
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Chandra's Defeat
2 Magma Spray
2 Abrade
2 Kari Zev's Expertise
2 Akoum Firebird
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Glorybringer
11 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
4 Sunscorched Desert
4 Bomat Courier
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Earthshaker Khenra
4 Thermo-Alchemist
3 Ahn-Crop Crasher
4 Incendiary Flow
2 Collective Defiance
4 Fiery Temper
2 Hungry Flames
1 Chandra's Defeat
3 Abrade
1 Chandra's Pyrohelix
3 Harsh Mentor
1 Sunset Pyramid
2 Hungry Flames
2 Sweltering Suns
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Some observations:
Overall it looks like this is a real deck now.
I am currently working on this build, and have not yet played it. It's one of the lowest in average cmc I've seen. I want to get plays every Turn-1 and Turn-2, and I would rather be casting stuff off madness on turn 3 or surging bushwacker or just playing 2 creatures over a single 3-drop, with similar approach to turn 4. Because of this, I'm playing one less land than the 21 that seems to be standard.
4x Ramunap Ruins
4x Sunscorched Desert
2x Ahn-Crop Crasher
4x Bloodrage Brawler
4x Earthshaker Khenra
4x Falkenrath Gorger
2x Insolent Neonate
2x Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4x Reckless Bushwhacker
4x Soul-Scar Mage
2x Village Messenger
4x Shock
4x Incendiary Flow
One thing that occurred to me... The deck has 8 sources of colorless mana, which does open the door to things like Reality Smasher. I think in the main build, my game plan doesn't include casting 5-cmc spells. But I wonder about sideboarding in things like that, or Thought-Knot Seer, for certain circumstances. Those are both decent cards against control decks.
Eldrazi Obligator gives you a 3/1 haste guy with some colorless using upside that fits decently well into the deck.
I do think that if you are going hard on the small attacker plan you want to max out your Ahn-Crop Crasher count and play some number of Cartouche of Zeal. The falter effect is huge and the cartouche helps with bushwhacker. Crasher is also a reasonable play after getting hit with a sweeper.
Cartouche is something I've wanted to fit in but man, there are so many things I feel are good for this deck and not enough room (as evidenced by the number of variants above).
Okay, what if... I swap out the 2 Kari Zev for 2 more Ahn-Crop Crasher? Kari Zev is a very good creature, but it has no synergy with what the deck does. I try to exploit the madness stuff in my deck, and the token doesn't even get the +1/+0 from bushwacker. And then I'm not sure if Shock is high enough impact when the deck is effectively already playing 8 Lightning Bolts. Maybe swap Shock for Cartouche?
4 Ramunap Ruins
4 Sunscorched Desert
2 Bomat Courier
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Flameblade Adept
3 Bloodrage Brawler
4 Earthshaker Khenra
3 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
3 Hazoret the Fervent
2 Incendiary Flow
4 Fiery Temper
1 Key to the City
1 Hostile Desert
3 Magma Spray
3 Abrade
1 Key to the City
2 Collective Defiance
2 Kari Zev's Expertise
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Hazoret the Fervent
I've played against the deck a few times with RG Pummeler energy. Where the red deck seems to run into trouble is if you have early removal and follow up with slightly bigger creatures.
If I were going to war with a mono-red aggro deck I would probably go with something like:
4 Ramunap Ruins
4 Sunscorched Desert
4 Bomat Courier
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Village Messenger
4 Earthshaker Khenra
3 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
2 Eldrazi Obligator
4 Incendiary Flow
3 Trial of Zeal
3 Cartouche of Zeal
1 Mountain
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
2 Magma Spray
3 Abrade
3 Akoum Firebird
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Glorybringer
Something like that. I think you really want to consistently get damage across early, have hasty dudes to send in off the top, and reach to finish off the game. Not sure about the sideboard. Chandra seems weaker as an anti-control card in the world of Hour of Devastation but I don't know that there's anything better out there.
1) Can a 22 land base support 2 Hostile Desert? I'm thinking 12 Mountain, 4 Ruin, 4 Sunscorched, 2 Hostile.
2) I've seen Key to the City in more than one list between the 5-0's and the online PTQ. Can the deck handle the tempo loss? In theory it does several things you want to be doing and compliments Hazoret the Fervent in a light madness sub-theme. Maybe the two at a 2/2 split pulls Fiery Temper off the bench and into a starting slot?
3) None of the lists run Lathnu Hellion. I get that energy generation isn't where you want to be, so its doomed after two swings, but it still strikes me as one of your better T3 plays and certainly one of your best draws off the top from T5 onward outside of Hazoret or a kicke Obligator. What am I missing?
I like your build as a well-rounded entry. I'll probably run it a few hands and then try something like -3 Trial, -3 Cartouche, -1 Kari, -2 Messenger, -1 Mountain -> +2 Key, +2 Hazoret, +4 Temper, +2 Hostile Desert.
The builds really are all over the place right now. Thanks to you and everyone else who took he time to sort through the data and try to make sense of it all.
The only way you're getting lands in the yard is through Ramunap Ruins. I can see Hostile Desert out of the side for very grindy matchups but I'm a little skeptical about the utility main deck.
Key feels like a sideboard card to me. It looks like the trend has been to increase consistency by giving up on madness/reanimation synergies, and the unblockability is lackluster in a lot of matchups.
Hellion is competing for space with Ahn-Crop Crasher, Hanweir Garrison, and Eldrazi Obligator. I don't think it's wrong to play it over the Obligator or Garrison, but you can't play too many 3+ drops. The deck really wants to have 11+ damage in by the end of turn 3. If things go at all well your best draw T5 should be an incendiary flow for the win.
This is all just me theorycrafting. I would recommend picking the 5-0 list you like the best and playing it for a while before tweaking to fit your preferences.
ETA: I took the list I gave above through a friendly league and went 5-0, 10-1 in games. The one loss was a one lander where I never drew land #2. Deck is sweet.
Sideboarding:
Control: -cartouches, +4 drop of choice
Midrange: leave as is; if shock has no targets take it out for 4 drop of choice
Aggro: -all one drops, -cartouches, + everything
I started with a super budget version, and just from selling those chests, I already got 3x Chandra, Torch of Defiance. I've been tweaking the list, and I'm currently very happy with a list I 5-0'd on tuesday. List is as follows:
EDIT:
No idea on how to post decklists, lol. Image in attachments.
Should be playing Shock over Magma Spray main deck and Collective Defiance is now a Chandra, Torch of Defiance in the sideboard.
I have also tried the Trial of Zeal lists and to be honest, I don't really love those.
Also, as of late, the deck has become super popular in Magic Online due to most of the cards being super cheap.
4 Ramunap Ruins
4 Sunscorched Desert
4 Bomat Courier
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Village Messenger
4 Earthshaker Khenra
3 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
2 Lathnu Hellion
2 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Incendiary Flow
3 Cartouche of Zeal
3 Trial of Zeal
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
2 Blazing Volley
2 Chandra's Defeat
2 Magma Spray
2 Abrade
2 Kari Zev's Expertise
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Ramunap Ruins
4 Sunscorched Desert
2 Bomat Courier
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Soul-Scar Mage
3 Bloodrage Brawler
4 Earthshaker Khenra
3 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
3 Hazoret the Fervent
2 Incendiary Flow
1 Collective Defiance
4 Fiery Temper
1 Key to the City
1 Hostile Desert
3 Magma Spray
3 Abrade
1 Collective Defiance
2 Hanweir Garrison
2 Kari Zev's Expertise
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Hazoret the Fervent
This marks the first appearance of Bloodrage Brawler in one of these lists. We also see a Lathnu Hellion popping up as another finisher. People seem to be standardizing on the full 8 deserts in the manabase. Outside of Chandra the deck only costs $30 so I'd expect to keep seeing it pop up.
In the interests of providing a little more content, I'll give a report of my run through a friendly league. The deck:
4 Ramunap Ruins
4 Sunscorched Desert
4 Bomat Courier
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Village Messenger
4 Earthshaker Khenra
3 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
2 Eldrazi Obligator
4 Incendiary Flow
3 Trial of Zeal
3 Cartouche of Zeal
1 Mountain
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
2 Magma Spray
3 Abrade
3 Akoum Firebird
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Hazoret the Fervent
2 Glorybringer
Round 1: Temur Energy (2-1)
Sideboard: -1 shock, +1 Hazoret
Game 2: I keep a one lander, never draw a second land, and get crushed by longtusk cub.
Game 3: I keep another one lander. Gorger into Courier sends three damage at him on turn 2. I draw land on turn three for a Kari Zev, which gets Abraded. I draw another land turn four and shock his Refiner, following up with another Kari Zev. He plays a Bristling Hydra at 10 life. I play Earthshaker Kenra and send the team. He blocks Gorger and goes to four. Next turn Sunscorched Desert + Incendiary Flow finish him off.
Round 2: GWr Midrange (2-0)
He has two cards in hand, five lands including a Westvale Abbey in play. I have Gorger, Cartouche, Trial of Zeal in hand, two ruins, two clues, and a mountain in play. I rip a desert and play Trial plus Gorger. I draw another desert, Cartouche up Gorger and swing to trade with a Spider (fearing land + inspector to flip abbey), then play Trial to put him to 2 with Ruins on deck. GG.
Sideboarding: none.
Game 2: I curve Courier into Khenra. Courier eats a dec stone, I play another Khenra and beat him to 12. He plays nothing so I EoT shock his face (Trial, Flow, Obligator in hand, 2xruins + mountain in play). I swing with Khenra to take him to 6 and play Trial to knock him to 3. He fumigates back up to 5, so I play Obligator and beat him to 2. Next turn I flow his face, ggs.
Round 3: Grixis Control (2-0)
Sideboard: -3 Cartouche +1 Chandra, +1 Hazoret, +1 Akoum Firebird.
Game 2: I have to mull a 2 desert hand and wind up with a sketchy six (courier, courier, shock, mountain, mountain, sunscorched desert). I draw Chandra then a messenger. Opponent Abrades the messenger and lets the Bomats beat in. Gorger joins the party on turn 3. I shock face EoT and fire off the flow I draw pre-combat for max Bomat value, attacking him down to five at the end of turn four. I have Chandra in hand, three land in play, and four cards under my first Bomat. He Illuminates, then Glimmers, then concedes. Never had a non-land permanent in play.
Round 4: Mono-B Zombies (2-0)
I was terrified of Dark Salvation the entire game and count myself lucky he didn't draw it.
Sideboard: -4 Village Messenger, -4 Falkenrath Gorger, -3 Cartouche of Zeal, -4 Bomat Courier, + everything.
Game 2: I magma spray his dread wanderer, then flow his relentless dead. He has no turn 3 land drop or play. I play Ahn-Crop Crasher turn three, then Chandra + Kari Zev turn 4. Kari Zev gets pushed, then he finds land and plays Aethersphere Harvester. I play Firebird + Kari Zev (glorybringer in hand, Chandra at 6) and swing to take him to 8. He plays Lord of the Accursed and scoops. Chandra would have killed it and Crasher would have exerted to falter the Harvester on my turn.
This matchup feels a lot better post sideboard.
Round 5: Mono-R Aggro (2-0)
Game 1: Hand is kind of meh; messenger, messenger, obligator, shock, mountain, mountain, desert. Can't pitch it, though. Messengers beat in. I shock his gorger, then draw and play Trial to kill his Bloodrage Brawler. He plays a Crasher and swings, taking the life total to 16-15 in my advantage. I play a desert and beat him to 12, letting the villagers flip. He attacks with Crasher and plays Built to Smash; I shock in response. He flows my messenger, flipping the other one back. I draw and play Crasher (Ruins, Desert, 2 mountain in play, obligator in hand) and attack, making it 16-8. He has two cards in hand. He flows my crasher and plays Bomat Courier.
I draw Sunscorched Desert. I play it and play a kicked obligator, taking his courier and swinging to take him down to 2, facing an active ruins next turn. GG.
Sideboard: -4 Village Messenger, -4 Falkenrath Gorger, -3 Cartouche of Zeal, -4 Bomat Courier, + everything.
Game 2: I pitch a seven that is five land plus two Trial of Zeal. The six is mountain, ruins, desert, shock, abrade, Crasher. I bottom a mountain and draw Crasher followed by Glorybringer. The first play to the board is his turn 3 crasher, which I shock. My crasher gets in a hit, as does his firebird. I play another crasher and both swing, making it 16-11. He shocks one crasher and plays Hanweir Garrison. Glorybringer flames the Garrison down and, with Crasher, makes it 13-3. He flows my crasher, but a Trial of Zeal off the top ends things. I had Abrade and Shock in hand with Ruins in play, so the result wasn't really in doubt.
Summary
The basic engine of this deck is a flood of cheap creatures, hasty creatures, cheap removal, and falter effects. Taken together they make it very hard to stabilize against us. If an opponent wants to block they have to leave their whole team back which gives us time to burn them out. If they try to race we can generally turn things in our favor with cheap removal and hasty dudes. Being able to get 1-3 uncounterable damage from our lands is wonderful.
The way we lose is if somebody has cheap removal for all of our creatures and then plays big monsters we can't handle. The good news is that most decks in standard don't play that much cheap removal and those that do are pretty susceptible to the go-big sideboard plan (-all one drops, -cartouches, + everything).
On a personal note, I feel a bit vindicated that the very cards I was curious about showed up in 5-0 decks the following day. Nice to know I'm not waaaay off base.
On a competitive note, I piloted the list I mentioned earlier at FNM tonight except instead of adding 2 Keys, I only added 1. Finished 4-0-1 with the draw in the finals so we could all go home. Couple thoughts.
The manabase with two Hostile Desert was fine all night. 22 land total may be 1 too many, so its certainly
possible the correct number of manlands is 1. Or even none, though having access to an attacker post sweeper was relevant more than once. Its worth mentioning that Hazoret the Fervent, Bomat Courier, and Key to the City all put lands in the yard. I never lacked GY fodder for activation. Speaking of, Key to the City was fine, but often got sided out. Like, 3 of 4 rounds often. Between that and only running 1, I'm wondering if that slot couldn't be different even though it was useful when it hit the table. Maybe a 3rd Eldrazi Obligator because it often felt like that was my best out to an imposing blocker. Village Messenger over performed to the extent that I think less than 4 is probably just wrong. I almost just want to max out on 1 and 2 drops and run Built to Smash. But that's just me and could be a knee-jerk to playing against 2 W/U Monument builds. I found Monument very difficult to deal with if your opener was a little top heavy or land heavy. Cloudblazer sucks.
So that's my first impressions from the trenches. Perhaps I'll try to organize my thoughts a bit better and post and actual tourney report tomorrow. Happy hunting to you all.
P.S. How many cards does a Courier need to exile before its correct to play off curve just to hold a mana up for the sacrifice? I found myself struggling with that question quite often.
I hold up mana for Courier if I would crack it in response to removal. It's not really a numerical thing. It depends on the situation.
After another couple leagues (4-1 and 2-3) I'm very happy with the maindeck. I've lost two game ones in fifteen matches (the 2-3 finish involved two savagings by the RNG against mono-B zombies; the first game one loss required me to brick on two running 27-outers; the second one saw me draw no burn all game long while he curved push into lord into dark salvation into mastery into ifnir deadlands). The big red plan has looked a little shaky in the sideboard against zombies and the mirror. I think going full control might be a mistake. Alternatively, the Akoum Firebirds might not be the cards that I want if I'm going to go big. I've yet to see them be very impressive.
In my experience Hazoret is not good in the game one mirror--I've killed a few people by swinging through a still inactive Hazoret. Post sideboard Hazoret is a lot better since the games go longer and we can't really get it off the board.
In other matchups I still like shock better game one. In game one you really want fast damage, cheap removal, and reach. Being able to shock a blocker and play a one drop on turn two is in my opinion much more valuable than dropping Hazoret turn four. The competitive league 5-0s all play four drops though, so I could be wrong.
I tweaked the sideboard a bit and managed a 4-1 league, losing to mono-W monument by flooding out and then mulling to four:
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
2 Magma Spray
4 Abrade
1 Eldrazi Obligator
2 Hazoret the Fervent
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Glorybringer
I like Hazoret a lot more than the firebird. Obligator has been good enough that I want access to another in the side, and having the full set of Abrade just feels good.
For what its worth, that's what I ran.
I kept overlooking scavenger grounds and I was trying endless sands as land 25 but I think thats perfect for the environment right not dealing with both delirium,eternalize, and the back half of X to Y type cards That helps me alot thanks.
I might actually run Sand Strangler over Chandra, strange as it sounds. It's much better in the mirror. In general we have a hard time keeping Chandra alive. OTOH she is our only way to kill Glorybringer. Maybe a couple Chandra's Defeat in the bonus removal slots.
I ran through another 4-1 league (lost a tight game 3 in the mirror, otherwise 8-0). You get some quick games in with this deck, that's for sure.
Now that God-Pharaoh's Gift is a real deck I am 100% on board with a pair of Scavenger Grounds in the sideboard.
ETA: Chandra's defeat is amazing in the mirror. It's the same tempo swing as shock except you get to kill much bigger stuff with it. Sand Strangler is a good clean 2 for 1.