More or less swapped 2 Heir for 2 Harvester. It has performed very well when I've drawn it. Otherwise, the sideboard has been shifted about. A couple of Fatal Push and Call the Bloodline over Shocks.
thanks for the update. it looks solid. i don't have Aethersphere Harvester yet so i can't test your new list, though.
i am curious if anyone has successful done and tested a low to the ground R/b approach, something like.
it's basically an aggro-control deck where the aim is to put 3-5 power on the board in the first 2-3 turns and then use removal to allow creatures to push damage through or bring him to low enough life to use burn.
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
ah that one. it went at least 4 wins 0 loss versus B/G, so it has potential. it's 6-3 so it made it to day 2.
i don't get how exactly the deck works, like spell sequencing and sideboarding, but i hope the dudes at Red Deck Winning (where the deck originated from) will do their own in-depth deck tech in a podcast or FB post.
I gave it a go online. It's actually pretty simple to play. More or less cast your biggest thing and remove their early blockers with burn spells. Menace does a lot to get past the ones you can't remove.
ah. well, that explains the presence of those menace creatures. i'm more inclined to go B/r Vampires for fliers, though.
from what i gathered, the mono red deck went 6-3 day 1 then 1-5 day 2. disappointing, but maybe the deck just needs more tuning, perhaps remove some one drops in favor of more removal.
I dunno. That deck looks pretty bad. 6-drops with 22 lands? Double black and double red spells? No thanks. Though, I have been having fun with a modified version of that Mono Red deck.
I dunno. That deck looks pretty bad. 6-drops with 22 lands? Double black and double red spells? No thanks. Though, I have been having fun with a modified version of that Mono Red deck.
There is 1 6 drop, and with Chandra's plus it's very viable.
I played that list with a few modifications at my local tournament tonight and didn't lose a game. Beat G/W Tokens, B/G Counters and a Naya Planeswalker brew. I did add 2 lands because 22 seemed like it was skimming and changed the removal suite a little bit. But this style of deck feels really powerful, early drops backed up by removal, and late game potential seems pretty darn good. I don't know how you can just call it straight up bad like that and in the same breath saying mono red is good.
Well then, you must have gotten lucky. There are a number of design choices which will lead that deck to be highly inconsistent.
For example:
It has many double color spells in both red and black, several at 2cmc and 3cmc. To reliably cast 2cmc card with double color, you need about 20 sources. However, that list only has 13 reliable sources of red and 14 reliable sources of black. Even if you count Aether Hub as a full source, you will still end up with around only 70-80% reliability on each colour. Which works out to be pretty bad overall for your games.
It plays Fiery Temper, and yet only 3 ways to discard it? No less, it's Bomat Courier, which is unlikely to get popped until T5-T6 with that curve.
Aforementioned 22 lands with 1x 6-drop (2x if you count the sideboard). Though that isn't the only issue. It also plays, 4x 5-drops, and 4x 4-drops. There is not nearly enough land to support that curve.
It plays Yahenni, a sac outlet, but only 13 other creatures, 3 of which want to sacrifice themselves for value.
It plays Unlicensed Disintegration with only 7x artifacts to enable its extra damage. This is the least offending issue, since at least its still a removal spell.
It plays a stack of creature removal, which is dead against control decks. It doesn't play much in the way of card advantage, so it is going to 1-for-1 for the first few turns, then gas out against Green and Blue decks without much to show for it.
In other words, its looks like a bad deck.
Edit: Also, I said I was having fun with the Mono Red deck (the Big Red deck mentioned above, i.e. a midrange deck). I didn't say it was good. But I will say its likely better than the BR deck linked.
going midrange seems to be the right direction for B/R.
I like the list but it doesn't seem super tuned. I wonder if the deck could survive without the Lilianas and Kalitas in favor of Key to the City and Bloodhall Priest maybe? I might try working with something similar to this.
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
Well then, you must have gotten lucky. There are a number of design choices which will lead that deck to be highly inconsistent.
For example:
It has many double color spells in both red and black, several at 2cmc and 3cmc. To reliably cast 2cmc card with double color, you need about 20 sources. However, that list only has 13 reliable sources of red and 14 reliable sources of black. Even if you count Aether Hub as a full source, you will still end up with around only 70-80% reliability on each colour. Which works out to be pretty bad overall for your games.
It plays Fiery Temper, and yet only 3 ways to discard it? No less, it's Bomat Courier, which is unlikely to get popped until T5-T6 with that curve.
Aforementioned 22 lands with 1x 6-drop (2x if you count the sideboard). Though that isn't the only issue. It also plays, 4x 5-drops, and 4x 4-drops. There is not nearly enough land to support that curve.
It plays Yahenni, a sac outlet, but only 13 other creatures, 3 of which want to sacrifice themselves for value.
It plays Unlicensed Disintegration with only 7x artifacts to enable its extra damage. This is the least offending issue, since at least its still a removal spell.
It plays a stack of creature removal, which is dead against control decks. It doesn't play much in the way of card advantage, so it is going to 1-for-1 for the first few turns, then gas out against Green and Blue decks without much to show for it.
In other words, its looks like a bad deck.
Edit: Also, I said I was having fun with the Mono Red deck (the Big Red deck mentioned above, i.e. a midrange deck). I didn't say it was good. But I will say its likely better than the BR deck linked.
Like I said, I changed it around a bit, I completely cut Temper because it seems very bad in this specifically. I had 0 mana problems in my playing. Maybe my list is better than this one? Maybe I just got lucky like you said. On your other points, even with nothing to sac to him Yahenni is just good, remove a couple of creatures in play with him and you got yourself a big boy, I won a game off jamming him turn 3 backed by removal. I added 2 lands, I agree 22 is actually horrible.
And a lot of decks run removal in this game, are you supposed to just not play removal because of the existence of control decks? I don't understand that logic at all. Also my SB had a little more aggro element to it for when I was playing with dead removal.
We are probably talking about two disparate decks. I was commenting on that specific list. Certainly it could be tuned, but I sort of think the more we tune it to be bigger the more it just wants to be Grixis control.
Concerning Yahenni, I don't think he is worthwhile without taking advantage of his sac ability, but I will concede he could be powerful primarily as a scaling threat.
Regarding removal. Well, there are a couple of good practice design philosophies I'd try to observe.
1. If the meta has a decent amount of control decks (which it does), then limiting the non-proactive cards mainboard is important. This can be done without necessarily cutting removal by making the removal relevant without a creature target (e.g. Burn). However, between Disintegration, Grasp, Murder, Path, and so forth, that list iirc had something like 12-13 cards which are not going to do very much vs control.
2. Regardless of meta, a deck with half removal will need ways to pull ahead on cards after casting a bunch of 1-for-1s (e.g. card draw). Green decks play Tracker and Blue decks play Glommer. That deck is leaning awful heavily on the 2x Chandra to give themselves a way to refuel.
In regards the last point there, that is exactly why I wish Sin Prodder could work and why I really enjoy Key to the City with Madness as a card advantage engine.
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"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
5 Swamp
5 Mountain
4 Aether Hub
4 Spire of Industry
2 Foreboding Ruins
4 Bomat Courier
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
2 Weldfast Engineer
2 Scrap Trawler
4 Pia Nalaar
4 Herald of Anguish
4 Renegade Map
4 Heart of Kiran
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Fatal Push
4 Unlicensed Disintegration
2 Battle at the Bridge
well there's a lot of creatures that has the capability to crew Heart of Kiran, so that's nice. Battle at the Bridge seems awkward, though, and what's Renegade Map for in your deck?
if that's only for the sake of having artifacts, i suggest you look at Key to the City instead.
also, please use the Deck tag next time. makes looking at deck lists much easier.
Hello,
Renegade Map can fix mana, activate fatal push, help Herald of Anguish to arrive 1 turn earlier and giving him an artifact to sacrifice.
So 8 cc1 artifacts (4 bomat and 4 maps), 8 cc2 (4 kiran and 4 scrapheap), 6cc3 (2 Weldfast and 4 pia) in order to play at t4 Herald
Regarding Battle at the Bridge, maybe in sideboard against aggro so probably better Ruinous Path in main (too many planeswalker around). Thinking about 1 Ob Nixilis Reignited...
Sorry about tags, retry now:
could you further improve that by categorizing the cards into creatures, spells, etc? please see the deck i'll post below.
in any case, have you tried your deck, either in tournament or playtest?
RBFNM ReportRB
so i made a Rakdos Vampire deck for this week's FNM with the aim of killing the opponent before he knew what hit him. went 3-2. loss was vs Saheeli decks.
Round 1 vs G/R Energy - Win. Managed to do a turn 5 kill.
Round 2 vs Mono Blue Control - Win. Did a turn 5 kill again.
Round 3 vs 4 Color Saheeli Rai - Loss. on the deciding round, i mulliganed to 4.
Round 4 vs U/W Flash - Win. once again, speed won.
Round 5 vs 4 Color Saheeli - Loss. on the deciding round, i was stuck on 3 lands - 1 Mountain, 1 Swamp and 1 Geier Reach Sanitarium.
basically, the deck easily wins when it curves out, and loses miserably when it does not. i wish i could playest the deck more vs Saheeli decks, as those decks are quite tricky to deal with.
i think i need to increase land count to 22 by adding a Swamp. the Sideboard could also use some tuning.
any comments and suggestions are welcome.
anyway, that's my FNM Report. how did it go with you guys?
PS: PT AER Prediction - final round will be control vs saheeli deck.
RBFNM ReportRB
so i made a Rakdos Vampire deck for this week's FNM with the aim of killing the opponent before he knew what hit him. went 3-2. loss was vs Saheeli decks.
Round 1 vs G/R Energy - Win. Managed to do a turn 5 kill.
Round 2 vs Mono Blue Control - Win. Did a turn 5 kill again.
Round 3 vs 4 Color Saheeli Rai - Loss. on the deciding round, i mulliganed to 4.
Round 4 vs U/W Flash - Win. once again, speed won.
Round 5 vs 4 Color Saheeli - Loss. on the deciding round, i was stuck on 3 lands - 1 Mountain, 1 Swamp and 1 Geier Reach Sanitarium.
basically, the deck easily wins when it curves out, and loses miserably when it does not. i wish i could playest the deck more vs Saheeli decks, as those decks are quite tricky to deal with.
i think i need to increase land count to 22 by adding a Swamp. the Sideboard could also use some tuning.
any comments and suggestions are welcome.
I've been on BR Vampire Madness since Shadows of Innistrad dropped. They win when they roll on curve and struggle otherwise. I've found a Key to the City is money and prefer it to Geier Reach Sanitarium - at least I like the key so much I'm not trying the Sanitarium. When the aggro plan doesn't work, the burn plan sometimes gets it done.
For that later reason, I don't run spells that don't go to the dome main-deck. I don't really like to side them in either, but sometimes one must do what one must do. The Key is the only exception to that rule and I run only one although the thought of another side-board does not fill me with contempt or loathing.
RBFNM ReportRB
so i made a Rakdos Vampire deck for this week's FNM with the aim of killing the opponent before he knew what hit him. went 3-2. loss was vs Saheeli decks.
Round 1 vs G/R Energy - Win. Managed to do a turn 5 kill.
Round 2 vs Mono Blue Control - Win. Did a turn 5 kill again.
Round 3 vs 4 Color Saheeli Rai - Loss. on the deciding round, i mulliganed to 4.
Round 4 vs U/W Flash - Win. once again, speed won.
Round 5 vs 4 Color Saheeli - Loss. on the deciding round, i was stuck on 3 lands - 1 Mountain, 1 Swamp and 1 Geier Reach Sanitarium.
basically, the deck easily wins when it curves out, and loses miserably when it does not. i wish i could playest the deck more vs Saheeli decks, as those decks are quite tricky to deal with.
i think i need to increase land count to 22 by adding a Swamp. the Sideboard could also use some tuning.
any comments and suggestions are welcome.
I've been on BR Vampire Madness since Shadows of Innistrad dropped. They win when they roll on curve and struggle otherwise. I've found a Key to the City is money and prefer it to Geier Reach Sanitarium - at least I like the key so much I'm not trying the Sanitarium. When the aggro plan doesn't work, the burn plan sometimes gets it done.
For that later reason, I don't run spells that don't go to the dome main-deck. I don't really like to side them in either, but sometimes one must do what one must do. The Key is the only exception to that rule and I run only one although the thought of another side-board does not fill me with contempt or loathing.
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
thanks for the update. it looks solid. i don't have Aethersphere Harvester yet so i can't test your new list, though.
i am curious if anyone has successful done and tested a low to the ground R/b approach, something like.
4 Bloodhall Priest
4 Bomat Courier
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Furyblade Vampire
4 Heir of Falkenrath
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
4 Fatal Push
4 Fiery Temper
4 Incendiary Flow
3 Lightning Axe
Lands 21
4 Foreboding Ruins
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
10 Mountain
4 Smoldering Marsh
2 Swamp
it's basically an aggro-control deck where the aim is to put 3-5 power on the board in the first 2-3 turns and then use removal to allow creatures to push damage through or bring him to low enough life to use burn.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/117970844
Tune in at 9 hours 32 minutes. ^
Current Decks
Standard / Type 2
BRMidrange
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
i don't get how exactly the deck works, like spell sequencing and sideboarding, but i hope the dudes at Red Deck Winning (where the deck originated from) will do their own in-depth deck tech in a podcast or FB post.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
from what i gathered, the mono red deck went 6-3 day 1 then 1-5 day 2. disappointing, but maybe the deck just needs more tuning, perhaps remove some one drops in favor of more removal.
going midrange seems to be the right direction for B/R.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
There is 1 6 drop, and with Chandra's plus it's very viable.
I played that list with a few modifications at my local tournament tonight and didn't lose a game. Beat G/W Tokens, B/G Counters and a Naya Planeswalker brew. I did add 2 lands because 22 seemed like it was skimming and changed the removal suite a little bit. But this style of deck feels really powerful, early drops backed up by removal, and late game potential seems pretty darn good. I don't know how you can just call it straight up bad like that and in the same breath saying mono red is good.
For example:
Edit: Also, I said I was having fun with the Mono Red deck (the Big Red deck mentioned above, i.e. a midrange deck). I didn't say it was good. But I will say its likely better than the BR deck linked.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
I'm testing this, what do you think?
5 Swamp
5 Mountain
4 Aether Hub
4 Spire of Industry
2 Foreboding Ruins
4 Bomat Courier
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
2 Weldfast Engineer
2 Scrap Trawler
4 Pia Nalaar
4 Herald of Anguish
4 Renegade Map
4 Heart of Kiran
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Fatal Push
4 Unlicensed Disintegration
2 Battle at the Bridge
I like the list but it doesn't seem super tuned. I wonder if the deck could survive without the Lilianas and Kalitas in favor of Key to the City and Bloodhall Priest maybe? I might try working with something similar to this.
So this is a list I'm tinkering with:
// 4 Artifact
4 Key to the City
// 17 Creature
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
4 Bomat Courier
3 Bloodhall Priest
2 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
3 Sin Prodder
1 Herald of Anguish
// 11 Instant
4 Unlicensed Disintegration
3 Fiery Temper
3 Fatal Push
1 To the Slaughter
4 Smoldering Marsh
4 Foreboding Ruins
8 Mountain
7 Swamp
// 3 Planeswalker
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
// 2 Sorcery
2 Ruinous Path
Current Decks
Standard / Type 2
BRMidrange
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
Like I said, I changed it around a bit, I completely cut Temper because it seems very bad in this specifically. I had 0 mana problems in my playing. Maybe my list is better than this one? Maybe I just got lucky like you said. On your other points, even with nothing to sac to him Yahenni is just good, remove a couple of creatures in play with him and you got yourself a big boy, I won a game off jamming him turn 3 backed by removal. I added 2 lands, I agree 22 is actually horrible.
And a lot of decks run removal in this game, are you supposed to just not play removal because of the existence of control decks? I don't understand that logic at all. Also my SB had a little more aggro element to it for when I was playing with dead removal.
Concerning Yahenni, I don't think he is worthwhile without taking advantage of his sac ability, but I will concede he could be powerful primarily as a scaling threat.
Regarding removal. Well, there are a couple of good practice design philosophies I'd try to observe.
1. If the meta has a decent amount of control decks (which it does), then limiting the non-proactive cards mainboard is important. This can be done without necessarily cutting removal by making the removal relevant without a creature target (e.g. Burn). However, between Disintegration, Grasp, Murder, Path, and so forth, that list iirc had something like 12-13 cards which are not going to do very much vs control.
2. Regardless of meta, a deck with half removal will need ways to pull ahead on cards after casting a bunch of 1-for-1s (e.g. card draw). Green decks play Tracker and Blue decks play Glommer. That deck is leaning awful heavily on the 2x Chandra to give themselves a way to refuel.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Current Decks
Standard / Type 2
BRMidrange
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
well there's a lot of creatures that has the capability to crew Heart of Kiran, so that's nice. Battle at the Bridge seems awkward, though, and what's Renegade Map for in your deck?
if that's only for the sake of having artifacts, i suggest you look at Key to the City instead.
also, please use the Deck tag next time. makes looking at deck lists much easier.
Renegade Map can fix mana, activate fatal push, help Herald of Anguish to arrive 1 turn earlier and giving him an artifact to sacrifice.
So 8 cc1 artifacts (4 bomat and 4 maps), 8 cc2 (4 kiran and 4 scrapheap), 6cc3 (2 Weldfast and 4 pia) in order to play at t4 Herald
Regarding Battle at the Bridge, maybe in sideboard against aggro so probably better Ruinous Path in main (too many planeswalker around). Thinking about 1 Ob Nixilis Reignited...
Sorry about tags, retry now:
5 Mountain
4 Aether Hub
4 Spire of Industry
2 Foreboding Ruins
4 Bomat Courier
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
2 Weldfast Engineer
2 Scrap Trawler
4 Pia Nalaar
4 Herald of Anguish
4 Renegade Map
4 Heart of Kiran
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Fatal Push
4 Unlicensed Disintegration
2 Battle at the Bridge
in any case, have you tried your deck, either in tournament or playtest?
RBFNM ReportRB
so i made a Rakdos Vampire deck for this week's FNM with the aim of killing the opponent before he knew what hit him. went 3-2. loss was vs Saheeli decks.
4 Bloodhall Priest
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Furyblade Vampire
4 Heir of Falkenrath
4 Incorrigible Youths
4 Ravenous Bloodseeker
4 Stromkirk Occultist
4 Fiery Temper
3 Lightning Axe
4 Shock
Lands 21
4 Foreboding Ruins
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
9 Mountain
4 Smoldering Marsh
3 Swamp
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Collective Defiance
2 Lathnu Hellion
1 Lightning Axe
2 Release the Gremlins
4 Transgress the Mind
Round 1 vs G/R Energy - Win. Managed to do a turn 5 kill.
Round 2 vs Mono Blue Control - Win. Did a turn 5 kill again.
Round 3 vs 4 Color Saheeli Rai - Loss. on the deciding round, i mulliganed to 4.
Round 4 vs U/W Flash - Win. once again, speed won.
Round 5 vs 4 Color Saheeli - Loss. on the deciding round, i was stuck on 3 lands - 1 Mountain, 1 Swamp and 1 Geier Reach Sanitarium.
basically, the deck easily wins when it curves out, and loses miserably when it does not. i wish i could playest the deck more vs Saheeli decks, as those decks are quite tricky to deal with.
i think i need to increase land count to 22 by adding a Swamp. the Sideboard could also use some tuning.
any comments and suggestions are welcome.
anyway, that's my FNM Report. how did it go with you guys?
PS: PT AER Prediction - final round will be control vs saheeli deck.
I've been on BR Vampire Madness since Shadows of Innistrad dropped. They win when they roll on curve and struggle otherwise. I've found a Key to the City is money and prefer it to Geier Reach Sanitarium - at least I like the key so much I'm not trying the Sanitarium. When the aggro plan doesn't work, the burn plan sometimes gets it done.
For that later reason, I don't run spells that don't go to the dome main-deck. I don't really like to side them in either, but sometimes one must do what one must do. The Key is the only exception to that rule and I run only one although the thought of another side-board does not fill me with contempt or loathing.
My list was posted a few days ago here: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/established-standard/756979-r-b-x-madness?comment=427
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
ok, that's nice. i won SOI Game Day with a Vampire deck too.
yours is more of aggro-control, which is good vs slower midrange decks,i think.
i think i'll also go with 22 lands, and remove Geier Reach Sanitarium in favor of another Swamp.
how well does your deck perform vs Saheeli decks? what is your plan in dealing with them?
Current Decks
Standard / Type 2
BRMidrange
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
I modified the deck view and the list.
At the moment tried only in cockatrice against ub tezzeret, bg aggro, gw tokens, not bad
I'm not sure whom you're asking, but my plan is the same as always: Kill them quickly.
PapaThor's advice sounds sage; one should probably hold the last burn spell until it's lethal. That might be true in other match-ups.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Youtube Channel
Edit: Probably not - I think it's referring to Winding Constrictor and not NOose Constrictor.