I agree, Jeskai with Nahiri, or Mardu with Nahiri, look very good, but they also look quite midrangey. They are very powerful decks though, and one should pay attention to them! I think jeskai has a little bit more card-draw power so I'd be inclined to go Jeskai.
I think that Nahiri summoning emrakul could be a very powerful thing: a hasty, trampling, flying 13/13 w/protection form instants is nothing to laugh at, even without the cast trigger. And since she brings him back EOT they'd better have a counterspell or discard spell in hand because you'll be doing it all over again next turn (w/ cast trigger this time).
Agreed, it might seem midrangey, but it can be controlly. Look at Modern Jeskai Nahiri. My list works really well.
Like you, Draw_gone, I'm much more of a draw-go player when I'm in control mode. I like the shell of your deck on the first page, but have a couple of thoughts/questions. Why not work something like the old Adrian Sullivan DTK style deck, which is mostly draw-go, but with a few planeswalkers to help out. I'm thinking something like 2-3 Dovin Baan, a Sorin, Grim Nemesis, and maybe a Jace, Unraveler of Secrets or Ob Nixilis Reignited. Alternatively, a Mind's Dilation could just turn the opponent's deck against them... Also, running a couple of MulldrifterCloudblazer gives a (slow) way to finish off, plus combines well with a Jace -2 for more cards... Or there's any of the Eldrazi Titans to put in. Finally, in that list of yours, what ways are there of dealing with landed planeswalkers? Should there not be some consideration to a few Ruinous Paths, even just in the side?
The problem is... putting these cards in to the list!
I tried that, and the problem was the lack of planeswalker removal. The deck basically counts on answering walkers by countering (early/mid game) and sometimes by just attacking with a flashed gearhulk (but that is later in the game), but mainly you have to counter. Tapping out on 4 thru 6 for casting your own walkers interferes too much with that plan (except sorin, our walkers are not like Garruk who could kill an opposing walker). At that point I realized that it might be better to just go all in on the walker plan, dump the counterspells, and go tap-out control, with ruinous path and the like. Thats a bit how the second deck was born.
I think counters will/could be very important if the meta breaks in such a way that ETB effects become huge. As I see it, there will be 4 main decks the first few weeks: 1) Temur Emerge will carry on momentum form last standard, 2) RW aggro with artifacts (and vehicles) 3) RG energy aggro (both of these archetypes were discussed by chapin/flores in their latest podcast i believe, but i dd not listen to it yet), 4) Various superfriends lists, mainly banking on the walkers for card advantage. Counterspells, specially summary dismissal will be great vs 1 and 4: if you counter their walkers they wont have access to their draw, and eventually they'll be topdecking and hellbent vs your 7 cards in hand. But countermagic is quite bad vs 2 and 3, so the way I see it we need a deck that can mutate between draw-go instant speed control, and a more tap out deck that controls the tiny dudes (liliana, dovin baan, jace and soring form a magnificent curve vs these strategies), perhaps even with access to a three mana wrath. While the cards are there to have a sort of "transformative sideboard" between draw-go and tap-out, the mana is not (tap out is very black heavy, anbd draw go is very blue heave, but we need WW for our wrath and that makes it tough.) Cracking this "connundrum" is what, in my humble opinion, will yield the best control shell.
EDIT: I tried mind's dilation in past standard and it was too slow. Since I predict the format will speed up a bit, i don't see it being good now either. If you wanted to go for a slow, enchantment-based win con that basically annuls their spot creature removal, I'd go for metallurgic summonings.
I've done some tweaking with deck ideas, including a few more Walker removal options, but trying to keep it as draw-go as possible. I'm not planning on slamming Dovin Baan T4, rather using him as a late stabiliser, and right around turning the corner. That allows the deck to keep up counter magic (i.e. play him T7+, leaving up mana for removal of threats or counter of opposing walkers).
I was actually talking with Adrian Sullivan at GP Portland about the state of control, and he said that he thought a focus on high numbers of both Grasp and Murder was probably the way to go, so I put a few of those in, as well as a pair of Ruinous Paths to deal with early dropped Lilianas that we can't deal with at the time, and also a pair of Anguished Unmaking for walkers, and also something like Fevered Visions or responding to vehicles that aren't active yet. Engulf the Shore is an answer for those weenie attacking decks, allowing us to sweep at instant speed (again, vehicles in mind). You'll notice that there's a reduced number of draw spells in order to focus on removal compared to Draw_Gone's deck on the previous page. This could be wrong, and maybe the Anguished Unmakings should be in the side and a couple more draw spells take their place in the main. As I said before, the walkers are there to turn the corner with, and the Gearhulks are there to provide instant speed flashback of primarily sweepers, but really anything we want/need at the time.
The mana base is not perfect, but I think it's close. Based on Frank Karsten's calculations on CFB, this deck would need 19 blue sources (in order to cast Void Shatter T3), 20 black sources (T2 Grasp), and 16 white sources (for T5 Fumigates). Right now, the breakdown is 18U/13W/19B, so while the blue and black are pretty close, the white is a bit short. However, with card draw spells and a few Evolving Wilds, we may be able to dig for a Plains if needed... Also, while Shambling Vent is nice for the man-land and lifelink, I was considering Concealed Courtyard. Early game it's an untapped source of (mainly) black, and later game it's the same as Shambling Vents - comes in tapped.
The sideboard still needs to be worked on, but I'm thinking something akin to Draw_Gone's suggestion of transforming to more of a tap-out control method - more sweepers and hand disruption to annoy the hell out of aggro decks. Earlier card draw (Anticipate) could also be an option, as could Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and/or Aerial Responder. Essence Extraction may also be an option to put in against aggro decks, which gives early answers to their cards (for example, takes down a Smuggler's Copter) and gains some life - much in the mould of Pharika's Cure.
Anyway, enough rambling. Here's what I have so far...
I was playing with sideboard options for the deck above, and it came out not as tap-out as I was first thinking. There's a lot of 1-ofs and 2-ofs, but shouldn't the sideboard be there to provide answers for most eventualities?
My logic for the choices is this:
- Emmy is there as a mirror-breaker - game goes long, we have something large to drop and severely inconvenience the opponent. Alternatively could be Newlamog, as we hit the board with it, get rid of any opposing Walkers, then next turn severely screw their library over. Down side is that we have to be able to protect it for that one turn... I also thought about just having another sweeper here to deal more with aggro (either Descend Upon the Sinful or a second Engulf the Shore, but then again, I have a couple of Flaying Tendrils for the same decks), but figured that we'd need at least one large win-con for mirrors.
- Ruinous Path and Summary Dismissal both increase the numbers in the main deck by one, making them more likely to be found when needed. Ruinous Path could be Anguished Unmaking number 3 instead for more of a catch-all answer (i.e. to take out enchantments, but really that's what the Fragmentize are for).
- Ceremonious Rejection goes in for Eldrazi and artifact/vehicle decks.
- Essence Extraction and Flaying Tendrils are more removal against swarm type weenie decks, with Extraction (as mentioned above) as an instant speed answer to most of the expected aggro vehicles (as I mentioned in the previous post). I thought about Aerial Responder, but that can't take out Copters. Flaying Tendrils could very well become Authority of the Consuls but that's only a temporary answer. They still get to untap with them and attack next turn...
- Fragmentize, for anything with artifacts in it, and can also deal with Fevered Visions, etc if needed.
- Kalitas goes in against aggro decks, allowing us to gain life, and also build up blockers (chump, if needed) as we kill off their creatures with our removal suite.
- Transgress the Mind is for hand disruption against most decks. The other option here could be Lost Legacy in order to decimate their entire deck of one card, but do we want to give the opponent card advantage?
I like your deck/sideboard @JoininWherever. I've actually been moving away from stasis snare in esper to lessen the WW burden, and moved towards a 2-2 Murder Anguished unmaking split, as I agree with Sullivan that instant speed removal like grasp and murder will be important if vehicles become a thing. I like snare as a partial answer ot Emrakul, but it does make mana awkward.
I've also tried some UW with spatial contortion filling in for grasp of darkens, 4 stasis snares, and 2 quarantine fields for resolved walkers. It's not terrible but I still like esper a tad better (if you want to try UW with spatial contortion, the manabase I used was 4 prairie stream, 4 port town, 3 plains, 4 island 1 wastes, 2 evolving wilds, 4 aether hub, 1 blighted cataract, 3 westvale abbey; abbey and cataract are reasonable late-game mana sinks, but perhaps some other colorless utility lands are better). The problem with UW controtion is that adding a whole new "color" just for a single card that isn't even all that powerful feels very wasteful. I thought of making use of the colorless by adding sideboard stuff like thought knot seer or kozilek, but then it become a worst esper (black > colorless).
I've done some tweaking with deck ideas, including a few more Walker removal options, but trying to keep it as draw-go as possible. I'm not planning on slamming Dovin Baan T4, rather using him as a late stabiliser, and right around turning the corner. That allows the deck to keep up counter magic (i.e. play him T7+, leaving up mana for removal of threats or counter of opposing walkers).
I was actually talking with Adrian Sullivan at GP Portland about the state of control, and he said that he thought a focus on high numbers of both Grasp and Murder was probably the way to go, so I put a few of those in, as well as a pair of Ruinous Paths to deal with early dropped Lilianas that we can't deal with at the time, and also a pair of Anguished Unmaking for walkers, and also something like Fevered Visions or responding to vehicles that aren't active yet. Engulf the Shore is an answer for those weenie attacking decks, allowing us to sweep at instant speed (again, vehicles in mind). You'll notice that there's a reduced number of draw spells in order to focus on removal compared to Draw_Gone's deck on the previous page. This could be wrong, and maybe the Anguished Unmakings should be in the side and a couple more draw spells take their place in the main. As I said before, the walkers are there to turn the corner with, and the Gearhulks are there to provide instant speed flashback of primarily sweepers, but really anything we want/need at the time.
The mana base is not perfect, but I think it's close. Based on Frank Karsten's calculations on CFB, this deck would need 19 blue sources (in order to cast Void Shatter T3), 20 black sources (T2 Grasp), and 16 white sources (for T5 Fumigates). Right now, the breakdown is 18U/13W/19B, so while the blue and black are pretty close, the white is a bit short. However, with card draw spells and a few Evolving Wilds, we may be able to dig for a Plains if needed... Also, while Shambling Vent is nice for the man-land and lifelink, I was considering Concealed Courtyard. Early game it's an untapped source of (mainly) black, and later game it's the same as Shambling Vents - comes in tapped.
The sideboard still needs to be worked on, but I'm thinking something akin to Draw_Gone's suggestion of transforming to more of a tap-out control method - more sweepers and hand disruption to annoy the hell out of aggro decks. Earlier card draw (Anticipate) could also be an option, as could Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and/or Aerial Responder. Essence Extraction may also be an option to put in against aggro decks, which gives early answers to their cards (for example, takes down a Smuggler's Copter) and gains some life - much in the mould of Pharika's Cure.
Anyway, enough rambling. Here's what I have so far...
Engulf the Shore in a deck with 9 Islands is a bit greedy. Also, the double color costs on Succumb to Temptation, Confirm Suspicions, Insidious Will, and Summary Dismissal are a bit troubling, not to mention Void Shatter. I would replace Succumb to Temptation with Live Fast, since it also adds energy to be used by Aether Hub. Sure, it's a sorcery, but It's going to help out A LOT on not straining your mana base. Have you considered Revolutionary Rebuff? It's certainly not Mana Leak, but we'll never get that in standard again.
I agree that Engulf with 9 islands is a little greedy, but it's really there as a tempo play against the aggro decks - I'm not expecting any amazing plays like bouncing my own Gearhulk, rather I'm looking to be able to wipe out a board of low toughness vehicles or aggro creatures. I'm usually looking to play it with 2 or 3 islands down. As for the mana base, it's actually not seeming as bad as it looks. We are in a situation very much like previous rotations of standard where it was desirable to be able to play Bile Blight T2, Dissolve T3, we are looking to drop (ideally) a UB land T1, B(x) T2, U(x) T3. There are ten lands that meet the UB T1 criteria, so it happens fairly often. I'm sure that, with more testing, I'll end up cursing the mana base and switching out cards.
Interestingly, the deck only needs white mana for Unmaking, Fumigate and Dovin Baan in the main, and Fragmentize in the side. It might be possible to go purely UB, making the manabase better, but my big concern is what to use as sweepers and instant speed answers for planeswalkers and enchantments. Dovin Baan could become with Noxious Gearhulk or Ob Nixilis Reignited, both of which remove threats, and Ob gives card draw too... But, no life gain to stabilise against aggro...
I agree that Engulf with 9 islands is a little greedy, but it's really there as a tempo play against the aggro decks - I'm not expecting any amazing plays like bouncing my own Gearhulk, rather I'm looking to be able to wipe out a board of low toughness vehicles or aggro creatures. I'm usually looking to play it with 2 or 3 islands down. As for the mana base, it's actually not seeming as bad as it looks. We are in a situation very much like previous rotations of standard where it was desirable to be able to play Bile Blight T2, Dissolve T3, we are looking to drop (ideally) a UB land T1, B(x) T2, U(x) T3. There are ten lands that meet the UB T1 criteria, so it happens fairly often. I'm sure that, with more testing, I'll end up cursing the mana base and switching out cards.
Interestingly, the deck only needs white mana for Unmaking, Fumigate and Dovin Baan in the main, and Fragmentize in the side. It might be possible to go purely UB, making the manabase better, but my big concern is what to use as sweepers and instant speed answers for planeswalkers and enchantments. Dovin Baan could become with Noxious Gearhulk or Ob Nixilis Reignited, both of which remove threats, and Ob gives card draw too... But, no life gain to stabilise against aggro...
Gearhulk gains life. If you're looking for a tempo play against agro, Filigree Familiar would be the direction I'd go. He also really helps if you want to run an Emrakul by giving you two card types in the yard. Filigree Familiar is just plain awesome. Early life gain, blocks and kills, cantrips. He does everything you want.
As @JoinInWherever says, the mana for esper is not as bad as it looks. You can support UU, BB early, and leave WW for turns 5+ when you need to wrath. The catch is to have a TON of 2,3,4 mana card draw to keep the lands coming (and I mean a ton, not just 4 anticipate and call it a day: that's why I play 2xsuccumb to temptation and 4xglimmer of genius ontop of 4x anticipate). I've won a bunch of matches just by anticipating into the 3rd land, succumb into a land and a spell, glimmer into a land and a spell, and turn 5 wrath+lifegain. It does happen, but it's not too likely, that you get color screwed. The first couple of matches, until you get a hand of how to fetch and sequence all the variety of lands (man lands, battlelands, reveal lands, etc). Also, managing the energy from hub becomes important. But once you get the hang of it, the manabase is reasonably good. Not as good as a two color manabase, but not as unplayable as you'd theorize w/out playing it.
The only real problem I see is that mono Red/RW/& RG aggro decks are going to be built trying to do lethal on turn 3 and will consistently be able to do 17 pts of damage over the first 3 turns with multiple creatures on the board at the end of that turn. If you don't have Grasp of Darkness and 2 untapped sources of mana after turn 2 when on the draw you may lose before you have an opportunity to control the opponent.
Hi! I really like your deck! I'm trying an Esper Control deck as you, but I have another ideas, I hope we could help each other with suggestions. I will load all the cards I'm considering,I know there are more than 60, please help me out here, what do I have to cut? I start to play Esper Control with Seth Mandfield's Esper Control deck from SOI Pro Tour.
I don't know how to create the decklist so I will put it this way:
cmc=2
x4 Anticipate (So good digging lands or answers)
x4 Revolutionary Rebuff (maybe 2 Negate and 2 Rebuff)
x4 Grasp of Darkness (Best removal)
x2 Transgress the Mind
x1 Declaration in Stone (for indestructible)?
x1 Blessed Alliance (very versatile)
cmc=4
x2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar (why not? helps on midgame if you have no options on hand and could be finisher)
x2 Dovin Baan (i need to try it)
x2 Glimmer of Genius (2 or nothing, 3 is too much and 1 sucks)
x1 insidious will (really like it, just one, enought)
cmc=6
x2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis (i think i play esper because of him, is so nasty)
x2 Torrential Gearhulk (I think 1 isnt enought and maybe 2 is too much, maybe im wrong, have to test it)
Deadlock Trap + Glimmer of Genius has been pretty great in my testing. I'd considering trying Deadlock if you're already playing Glimmering
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Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Valesantafe, welcome to the forum! With your card list, although it's nice to lay it out on a curve, I think with control you need to consider the cards by function instead. For example, you only have 6 dedicated draw spells in your list, and four of them don't actually net you any cards (you cast Anticipate to get one card back in your hand). If you look at my list, it has 6 draw spells, all of which get you more cards than you put in. Card advantage is everything in control, and that's why Dec in Stone probably isn't a good choice here either - do you want to be giving opponents more cards to use against you? I think that Revolutionary Rebuff is likely to be more of a dead card in this format than people think - I'm expecting a lot of artifacts to start with, so probably could be a sideboard card. Everything else you list is a good control card, with possibly the exception of Gideon (and this is now an answer to Paura as well). Gideon turns on the opponent's removal spells by giving them tokens to aim at, attacking as a 5/5 is great and all, but he gets easily stonewalled by 1/1s. His emblem is largely pointless in this deck as we have so few other creatures.
@ everyone else, I've not been overly impressed with Dovin Baan. I'm thinking of going down to 1, adding a Noxious Gearhulk, and maybe changing out a Fumigate for a Diabolic Tutor (or maybe these can go in the side for the Ruinous Path/Anguished Unmaking).
So is B/W dead? I feel like it has trouble with U/W Spirits and anything that has a lot of counters. We really don't have a lot of threats that dodge the counters. Aggro and Midrange match ups seems to be the usually 50/50 but heavy control just seems there is noting the deck can do.
So is B/W dead? I feel like it has trouble with U/W Spirits and anything that has a lot of counters. We really don't have a lot of threats that dodge the counters. Aggro and Midrange match ups seems to be the usually 50/50 but heavy control just seems there is noting the deck can do.
Bad Mana Leak has been doing better than expected. During my testing most people are tapping out and it's rarely bad even late game when people are trying to land expensive spells. Stops early beats, on the play just good. Dovin has been much better than expected, life gain + draw helps stabilize a board and if you live the dream of Familiar/Queller > Dovin/Gideon > Fumigate you are sitting in a good spot.
Jace is meh, and can see replacing it with something. Painful versus Glimmer of Genius is still up for debate - I think I'll prob end up with Glimmer just because turn 3 I want to be Filigree/Queller/removal/counter not drawing. Turn 4 only have the 5 PW at that CMC so it could be a turn I can dig 4 deep + a draw spell to find a fumigate if needed.
Hey ladies and gents, I've been following all sorts of control style posts for post kaladesh and I was just wanting to get y'alls opinion on a U/W Control style deck if you wouldn't mind. Thanks in advance!
Thank you so much for the suggestions! And you are right, I been thinking about it and I have new ideas. In this list I put 33 spells so I still have a single slot for a 3 cmc counter or 27 lands. Last esper control I played used 27 lands and it was awesome, never stuck on lands (Seth Manfield's Esper Control from SOI Pro Tour). By the way, that deck just used 4 anticipate a no more drawing spells because all PW he used gave card adventage. I'm thinking the same as here: Dovin, Ob, Jace and Sorin gives me extracards.
Digging/Draw:
4 Anticipate
2 Glimmer of Genious
2 Succumb to Temptation
B/W has been doing the best in my testing. At this point I don't see any reason to splash another color, as the power level on B/W is already insanely high, and splashing blue or red only weakens the consistency of the deck with tap lands and awkward draws with the wrong colors, while adding nothing really that doesn't already exist in the B/W colors. Here is my list
Blessed Alliance has always been on the edge of playable, and now with the need for good instant speed removal for vehicles, and the lack of a 4 cmc spell with Languish gone, this card has really pulled through and is performing quite well. The life gain on alliance, plus Fumigate makes life gain a real thing, usually I'm gaining around 5 life consistently during the first 5-6 turns now, so I'm comfortable playing 4 copies of Anguished Unmaking main deck now, and with all the artifacts, enchantments, and graveyard synergistic creatures in the format, unmaking is among the best and most versatile removal in standard right now. Cards like Fevered Visions and Aetherworks Marvel are must deal with permanents, so the 4 copies of unmaking seem real important.
3 copies of Flaying Tendrils in the SB really help with the various R/G and R/W beat down decks. Noxious Gearhulk has been performing amazingly, and is going to replace Ob or Sorin in a lot of matchups, I think it might even be my favorite card in the new set, and definitely the best Gearhulk IMO. 2 copies of Diabolic Tutor in the SB so I can keep Lost Legacy and Call the Bloodline down to 1 copy apiece to avoid drawing multiples of them, as each card goes way down in value with multiples.
I've tried an Esper variation, using Dovin Baan but he doesn't really add much more to the deck, and the need for blue mana makes my early turns clunky more often than not. The fact is if you want to go black white you need Fumigate and Grasp of Darkness, and you can't realistically play double blue spells at that point, and all the best blue spells (counter magic, card draw, Jace, etc...) all cost double blue. Red is in the same position with both Chandras, so at this point I don't really see a point to splashing a 3rd color, especially when the format is going to start out very fast, as typically happens at the start of a rotation.
The deck has been performing really well, winning a lot of my matchups. With Collected Company and Evolutionary Leap both gone I really think control is in a great position, creatures no longer flood the board, and controlling the game is much more feasible.
I've tried an Esper variation, using Dovin Baan but he doesn't really add much more to the deck, and the need for blue mana makes my early turns clunky more often than not. The fact is if you want to go black white you need Fumigate and Grasp of Darkness, and you can't realistically play double blue spells at that point, and all the best blue spells (counter magic, card draw, Jace, etc...) all cost double blue. Red is in the same position with both Chandras, so at this point I don't really see a point to splashing a 3rd color, especially when the format is going to start out very fast, as typically happens at the start of a rotation.
I understand your position but the blue isn't that clunky and Dovin Baan is very powerful with the lifegain + draw, access to negate or rejection in the board is very strong and helps your own argument of needing a way to handle vehicles. Glimmer of Genius is probably the best draw spell atm, instant speed Read the Bones. Energy from Glimmer could play into a Die Young type card.
I've tried an Esper variation, using Dovin Baan but he doesn't really add much more to the deck, and the need for blue mana makes my early turns clunky more often than not. The fact is if you want to go black white you need Fumigate and Grasp of Darkness, and you can't realistically play double blue spells at that point, and all the best blue spells (counter magic, card draw, Jace, etc...) all cost double blue. Red is in the same position with both Chandras, so at this point I don't really see a point to splashing a 3rd color, especially when the format is going to start out very fast, as typically happens at the start of a rotation.
I understand your position but the blue isn't that clunky and Dovin Baan is very powerful with the lifegain + draw, access to negate or rejection in the board is very strong and helps your own argument of needing a way to handle vehicles. Glimmer of Genius is probably the best draw spell atm, instant speed Read the Bones. Energy from Glimmer could play into a Die Young type card.
Not to mention that the extra energy can go into Aether Hubs to help smooth the mana.
I personally will either be playing B/W or U/W, but not Esper. I'm going to try both, but am currently leaning toward B/W right now.
Shaheen Soorani posted this list today, with promise of a UB control running Gearhulks tomorrow that is "more reactive". He also said that Gearhulks in Esper were "rough"
Agreed, it might seem midrangey, but it can be controlly. Look at Modern Jeskai Nahiri. My list works really well.
MulldrifterCloudblazer gives a (slow) way to finish off, plus combines well with a Jace -2 for more cards... Or there's any of the Eldrazi Titans to put in. Finally, in that list of yours, what ways are there of dealing with landed planeswalkers? Should there not be some consideration to a few Ruinous Paths, even just in the side?The problem is... putting these cards in to the list!
I think counters will/could be very important if the meta breaks in such a way that ETB effects become huge. As I see it, there will be 4 main decks the first few weeks: 1) Temur Emerge will carry on momentum form last standard, 2) RW aggro with artifacts (and vehicles) 3) RG energy aggro (both of these archetypes were discussed by chapin/flores in their latest podcast i believe, but i dd not listen to it yet), 4) Various superfriends lists, mainly banking on the walkers for card advantage. Counterspells, specially summary dismissal will be great vs 1 and 4: if you counter their walkers they wont have access to their draw, and eventually they'll be topdecking and hellbent vs your 7 cards in hand. But countermagic is quite bad vs 2 and 3, so the way I see it we need a deck that can mutate between draw-go instant speed control, and a more tap out deck that controls the tiny dudes (liliana, dovin baan, jace and soring form a magnificent curve vs these strategies), perhaps even with access to a three mana wrath. While the cards are there to have a sort of "transformative sideboard" between draw-go and tap-out, the mana is not (tap out is very black heavy, anbd draw go is very blue heave, but we need WW for our wrath and that makes it tough.) Cracking this "connundrum" is what, in my humble opinion, will yield the best control shell.
EDIT: I tried mind's dilation in past standard and it was too slow. Since I predict the format will speed up a bit, i don't see it being good now either. If you wanted to go for a slow, enchantment-based win con that basically annuls their spot creature removal, I'd go for metallurgic summonings.
I was actually talking with Adrian Sullivan at GP Portland about the state of control, and he said that he thought a focus on high numbers of both Grasp and Murder was probably the way to go, so I put a few of those in, as well as a pair of Ruinous Paths to deal with early dropped Lilianas that we can't deal with at the time, and also a pair of Anguished Unmaking for walkers, and also something like Fevered Visions or responding to vehicles that aren't active yet. Engulf the Shore is an answer for those weenie attacking decks, allowing us to sweep at instant speed (again, vehicles in mind). You'll notice that there's a reduced number of draw spells in order to focus on removal compared to Draw_Gone's deck on the previous page. This could be wrong, and maybe the Anguished Unmakings should be in the side and a couple more draw spells take their place in the main. As I said before, the walkers are there to turn the corner with, and the Gearhulks are there to provide instant speed flashback of primarily sweepers, but really anything we want/need at the time.
The mana base is not perfect, but I think it's close. Based on Frank Karsten's calculations on CFB, this deck would need 19 blue sources (in order to cast Void Shatter T3), 20 black sources (T2 Grasp), and 16 white sources (for T5 Fumigates). Right now, the breakdown is 18U/13W/19B, so while the blue and black are pretty close, the white is a bit short. However, with card draw spells and a few Evolving Wilds, we may be able to dig for a Plains if needed... Also, while Shambling Vent is nice for the man-land and lifelink, I was considering Concealed Courtyard. Early game it's an untapped source of (mainly) black, and later game it's the same as Shambling Vents - comes in tapped.
The sideboard still needs to be worked on, but I'm thinking something akin to Draw_Gone's suggestion of transforming to more of a tap-out control method - more sweepers and hand disruption to annoy the hell out of aggro decks. Earlier card draw (Anticipate) could also be an option, as could Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and/or Aerial Responder. Essence Extraction may also be an option to put in against aggro decks, which gives early answers to their cards (for example, takes down a Smuggler's Copter) and gains some life - much in the mould of Pharika's Cure.
Anyway, enough rambling. Here's what I have so far...
1 Plains
2 Island
2 Evolving wilds
3 Sunken Hollow
3 Shambling Vent
3 Aether Hub
4 Swamp
4 Prairie Stream
4 Choked Estuary
1 Confirm Suspicions
2 Succumb to Temptation
3 Glimmer of Genius
Counters (7)
1 Insidious Will
1 Summary Dismissal
2 Negate
3 Void Shatter
Removal (16)
1 Engulf the Shore
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Ruinous Path
3 Murder
4 Fumigate
4 Grasp of Darkness
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2 Dovin Baan
2 Torrential Gearhulk
My logic for the choices is this:
- Emmy is there as a mirror-breaker - game goes long, we have something large to drop and severely inconvenience the opponent. Alternatively could be Newlamog, as we hit the board with it, get rid of any opposing Walkers, then next turn severely screw their library over. Down side is that we have to be able to protect it for that one turn... I also thought about just having another sweeper here to deal more with aggro (either Descend Upon the Sinful or a second Engulf the Shore, but then again, I have a couple of Flaying Tendrils for the same decks), but figured that we'd need at least one large win-con for mirrors.
- Ruinous Path and Summary Dismissal both increase the numbers in the main deck by one, making them more likely to be found when needed. Ruinous Path could be Anguished Unmaking number 3 instead for more of a catch-all answer (i.e. to take out enchantments, but really that's what the Fragmentize are for).
- Ceremonious Rejection goes in for Eldrazi and artifact/vehicle decks.
- Essence Extraction and Flaying Tendrils are more removal against swarm type weenie decks, with Extraction (as mentioned above) as an instant speed answer to most of the expected aggro vehicles (as I mentioned in the previous post). I thought about Aerial Responder, but that can't take out Copters. Flaying Tendrils could very well become Authority of the Consuls but that's only a temporary answer. They still get to untap with them and attack next turn...
- Fragmentize, for anything with artifacts in it, and can also deal with Fevered Visions, etc if needed.
- Kalitas goes in against aggro decks, allowing us to gain life, and also build up blockers (chump, if needed) as we kill off their creatures with our removal suite.
- Transgress the Mind is for hand disruption against most decks. The other option here could be Lost Legacy in order to decimate their entire deck of one card, but do we want to give the opponent card advantage?
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Ruinous Path
1 Summary Dismissal
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Essence Extraction
2 Flaying Tendrils
2 Fragmentize
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Transgress the Mind
I've also tried some UW with spatial contortion filling in for grasp of darkens, 4 stasis snares, and 2 quarantine fields for resolved walkers. It's not terrible but I still like esper a tad better (if you want to try UW with spatial contortion, the manabase I used was 4 prairie stream, 4 port town, 3 plains, 4 island 1 wastes, 2 evolving wilds, 4 aether hub, 1 blighted cataract, 3 westvale abbey; abbey and cataract are reasonable late-game mana sinks, but perhaps some other colorless utility lands are better). The problem with UW controtion is that adding a whole new "color" just for a single card that isn't even all that powerful feels very wasteful. I thought of making use of the colorless by adding sideboard stuff like thought knot seer or kozilek, but then it become a worst esper (black > colorless).
Kozilek's Return
Aether Meltdown
Harnessed Lightning
Galvanic Bombardment
Collective Defiance
Thermo-Alchemist & Aether Theorist only creatures you run and neither falls to Kozilek's
2 or 3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 or 3 Confiscation Coup at top end to win with their big creatures
Take your pick of other burn/control spells you want to run
Sideboard potential in Aether Tradewinds or Select for Inspection depending on opponent and Negate or other counter spells
Engulf the Shore in a deck with 9 Islands is a bit greedy. Also, the double color costs on Succumb to Temptation, Confirm Suspicions, Insidious Will, and Summary Dismissal are a bit troubling, not to mention Void Shatter. I would replace Succumb to Temptation with Live Fast, since it also adds energy to be used by Aether Hub. Sure, it's a sorcery, but It's going to help out A LOT on not straining your mana base. Have you considered Revolutionary Rebuff? It's certainly not Mana Leak, but we'll never get that in standard again.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11439737#post11439737
Reality is only what man allows it to be. Few shape it so that many may accept it.
Interestingly, the deck only needs white mana for Unmaking, Fumigate and Dovin Baan in the main, and Fragmentize in the side. It might be possible to go purely UB, making the manabase better, but my big concern is what to use as sweepers and instant speed answers for planeswalkers and enchantments. Dovin Baan could become with Noxious Gearhulk or Ob Nixilis Reignited, both of which remove threats, and Ob gives card draw too... But, no life gain to stabilise against aggro...
Gearhulk gains life. If you're looking for a tempo play against agro, Filigree Familiar would be the direction I'd go. He also really helps if you want to run an Emrakul by giving you two card types in the yard. Filigree Familiar is just plain awesome. Early life gain, blocks and kills, cantrips. He does everything you want.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11439737#post11439737
Reality is only what man allows it to be. Few shape it so that many may accept it.
I don't know how to create the decklist so I will put it this way:
cmc=2
x4 Anticipate (So good digging lands or answers)
x4 Revolutionary Rebuff (maybe 2 Negate and 2 Rebuff)
x4 Grasp of Darkness (Best removal)
x2 Transgress the Mind
x1 Declaration in Stone (for indestructible)?
x1 Blessed Alliance (very versatile)
cmc=3
x2 Ruinous Path
x2 Anguished Unmaking
x1 Murded (another tool for torrential)
x1 Essence Extraction (maybe is murder sb versus aggro decks)
cmc=4
x2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar (why not? helps on midgame if you have no options on hand and could be finisher)
x2 Dovin Baan (i need to try it)
x2 Glimmer of Genius (2 or nothing, 3 is too much and 1 sucks)
x1 insidious will (really like it, just one, enought)
cmc=5
x1 Ob Nixilis Reignited (I really like it, maybe 2)
x2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets (This is the same as Ob Nixilis, you could use 2 or 1. but i dont want the stuck on 6-7 or more 5cmc cards)
x3 Fumigate
cmc=6
x2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis (i think i play esper because of him, is so nasty)
x2 Torrential Gearhulk (I think 1 isnt enought and maybe 2 is too much, maybe im wrong, have to test it)
THANK YOU SO MUCH!
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
I'm coming to play Standard and I chose the archetype Control. I am in doubt on BW or esper.
It is possible a BW/Esper control without Gideon, Ally of Zendikar?
@ everyone else, I've not been overly impressed with Dovin Baan. I'm thinking of going down to 1, adding a Noxious Gearhulk, and maybe changing out a Fumigate for a Diabolic Tutor (or maybe these can go in the side for the Ruinous Path/Anguished Unmaking).
3 Concealed Courtyard
8 Swamp
4 Plains
4 Shambling Vent
2 Evolving Wilds
1 Westvale Abbey
4 Aether Hub
Plane Walkers
3 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Ob Nixilis, Reignited
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Oath of Liliana
3 Fumigate
2 Anguished Unmaking
1 Skywhaler's Shot
4 Grasp of Darkness
3 Transgress the Mind
4 Live Fast
Creatures
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Archangel Avacyn
1 Linvala, The Preserver
2 Ruinous Path
3 Reality Smasher
2 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Call the Bloodline
2 Dead Weight
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Lost Legay
Against Spirits and other small aggro, you probably want Harsh Scrutiny. I also can't see not playing some number of Murder.
Jace is meh, and can see replacing it with something. Painful versus Glimmer of Genius is still up for debate - I think I'll prob end up with Glimmer just because turn 3 I want to be Filigree/Queller/removal/counter not drawing. Turn 4 only have the 5 PW at that CMC so it could be a turn I can dig 4 deep + a draw spell to find a fumigate if needed.
Let me know what you think.
2x Spell Queller
1x Linvala, the Preserver
1x Emrakul, the Promised End
4x Revolutionary Rebuff
3x Blessed Alliance
2x Declaration in Stone
1x Ruinous Path
2x Painful Truths
1x Quarantine Field
3x Fumigate
1x Descend Upon the Sinful
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Ob-Nix, Reignited
1x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
2x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
4x Shambling Vent
3x Evolving Wilds
2x Swamp
4x Plains
6x Island
3x Sunken Hollow
2x Prairie Stream
1x Concealed Courtyard
1x Choked Estuary
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-i-dont-want-to-have-friends-deck/
Digging/Draw:
4 Anticipate
2 Glimmer of Genious
2 Succumb to Temptation
Removal:
4 Grasp of Darkness
2 Ruinous Path
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Murder
4 Fumigate
1 cataclysmic Gearhulk
Counter:
2 Negate
1 Insidious Will
PW/Finisher:
2 Dovin Baan
1ob nixilis reignited
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2 Torrential Gearhulk
3 Liliana, The Last Hope
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Spells (23)
4 Grasp of Darkness
3 Transgress the Mind
3 Blessed Alliance
3 Succumb to Temptation
3 Oath of Liliana
4 Anguished Unmaking
3 Fumigate
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Shambling Vent
4 Forsaken Sanctuary
4 Plains
8 Swamp
2 Blighted Fen
1 Transgress the Mind
2 Fragmentize
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Flaying Tendrils
1 Call the Bloodline
2 Noxious Gearhulk
1 Lost Legacy
2 Diabolic Tutor
Blessed Alliance has always been on the edge of playable, and now with the need for good instant speed removal for vehicles, and the lack of a 4 cmc spell with Languish gone, this card has really pulled through and is performing quite well. The life gain on alliance, plus Fumigate makes life gain a real thing, usually I'm gaining around 5 life consistently during the first 5-6 turns now, so I'm comfortable playing 4 copies of Anguished Unmaking main deck now, and with all the artifacts, enchantments, and graveyard synergistic creatures in the format, unmaking is among the best and most versatile removal in standard right now. Cards like Fevered Visions and Aetherworks Marvel are must deal with permanents, so the 4 copies of unmaking seem real important.
3 copies of Flaying Tendrils in the SB really help with the various R/G and R/W beat down decks. Noxious Gearhulk has been performing amazingly, and is going to replace Ob or Sorin in a lot of matchups, I think it might even be my favorite card in the new set, and definitely the best Gearhulk IMO. 2 copies of Diabolic Tutor in the SB so I can keep Lost Legacy and Call the Bloodline down to 1 copy apiece to avoid drawing multiples of them, as each card goes way down in value with multiples.
I've tried an Esper variation, using Dovin Baan but he doesn't really add much more to the deck, and the need for blue mana makes my early turns clunky more often than not. The fact is if you want to go black white you need Fumigate and Grasp of Darkness, and you can't realistically play double blue spells at that point, and all the best blue spells (counter magic, card draw, Jace, etc...) all cost double blue. Red is in the same position with both Chandras, so at this point I don't really see a point to splashing a 3rd color, especially when the format is going to start out very fast, as typically happens at the start of a rotation.
The deck has been performing really well, winning a lot of my matchups. With Collected Company and Evolutionary Leap both gone I really think control is in a great position, creatures no longer flood the board, and controlling the game is much more feasible.
I understand your position but the blue isn't that clunky and Dovin Baan is very powerful with the lifegain + draw, access to negate or rejection in the board is very strong and helps your own argument of needing a way to handle vehicles. Glimmer of Genius is probably the best draw spell atm, instant speed Read the Bones. Energy from Glimmer could play into a Die Young type card.
Not to mention that the extra energy can go into Aether Hubs to help smooth the mana.
I personally will either be playing B/W or U/W, but not Esper. I'm going to try both, but am currently leaning toward B/W right now.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11439737#post11439737
Reality is only what man allows it to be. Few shape it so that many may accept it.
4 Transgress the Mind
4 Take Inventory
4 Oath of Jace
2 Ruinous Path
1 Anguished Unmkaing
1 Murder
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Fumigate
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
4 Shambling Vent
4 Choked Estuary
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Prairie Stream
2 Evolving Wilds
5 Swamp
2 Island
1 Plains