I'm playtesting an uwr build since KLD got released and till now I'm very satisfied.
Going to bite some nuts with this brew on next FNM.
I know that esper should be a better call right now, considering black have murder and ruinous path as unconditional removals,anguished unmaking to deal with nonland permanents, Sorin, Grim Nemesis with some lifegain, card draw and conditional spot removal and more interesting cards like grasp, hand removal and black helix.
So why did u go for uwr?
It was supposed to be better against aggrofest. Ppl always go for cancer decks in the beginning of season and red offers some cheap and good removals as harnessed lightning, radiant flames in sb, which is not so good atm against vehicles or selfless spirit and our MVP Nahiri, the Harbinger.
Some thoughts about this deck and some cards I play tested.
I'll start talking about the bad Kaladesh cards.
Perpetual Timepiece
When I started this brew, I was trying to make a draw go style which I could play for infinite hours against my opponents and for a moment, this card seemed a good option. But SPOILER ALERT - It's not. I barely used the perpetual pieceof***** and every time I drew it, a part of my soul has departed.
Right, you don't have to be a genious to notice that card probably suck, BUT who played with elixir of immortality should feel my pain. MY MIND IS TELLING ME NO, BUT MY BODY...
Next all star of my deck sucks is... Dovin Baan
Ok, I tried this ***** so much and It was disappointing so many times. I FEEL LIKE I WAS DATING A 3D GIRL.
I'll start for his +1.
He protects himself from a creature and sometimes the activated abilities lockdown is usefull. I got games, for example, that I used +1 on selfeless spirit on t4 and did the blowouts with Fumigate on t5. Sure, It doesn't happen often, but when It does.. oh boy. But in most cases, when they don't have black to ruinous path it, in some points of game, the -3 isn't enough. Field is replete of manlands and vehicles so He usually enters and get pressured or killed right on spot, usually for this hotweels right here -> fleetwheel cruiser.
So, why don't use the -1 then? Cuz draw a card and get 2 life for 2uw isn't a good trade. If you start with -1, He dies for everything. Any manland on standard kick his ass and the upside isn't good. Moreover, if u start to minus him, you won't to stop it till u draw at least two cards and if you are not in control mirror or playing against your pillow, It's not going to happen.
Finally, his ultimate. If you achieve this miracle, you are not going to win in the spot and you still can loose the game.
Basically, his abilities aren't strong enough atm. You hardly want to tappout in t4 to make him or want to draw it in matchs u were behind.
next big crap: Authority of the Consuls
Well, used 4 on my sideboard for a short time and It's weak. Creatures entering tapped doesn't make diff for control players, cuz they can't atk anws and We don't have so many haste creatures playing right now. The life gain is interesting, makes It not be so bad in multiples, even so It doesn't compensate the four slots in sb. When I tried this one, I was expecting more UR visions, so is the typically meta game call card.
I stopped to use this card when I got my ass ****ed by insane hotweels fleetwheel cruiser cuz It doens't work for vehicles.
This one wasn't disappointing. It's just doesn't payoff. Pay 4 to draw 2 instant and get 2 energy, is ok if you have what to do with energy counters. And in my shell, they were useless. Maybe in a shell more focused in confiscation coup it could over perform, but in my actual spot, I prefer pay 2UU and draw 3 with scour the laboratory.
Other cards I've tested.
Just a note here:
In my playtests I missed more spot removals. The awful 5 mana wrath hardly gets a good value (usually I get it for 2 creatures when my opponent is good) and I tested some of them.
Immolating Glare - It was ok. Isn't good against tracker and you have to use in combat phase, but It's ok overall.
sweep away - It was ok. It was good against gideon and emerge strats. My plan was to buy some time to set up a good wrath and land drops. Honestly, I didn't give up on this one.
roil spout - It's bad. The cost is restrictive and is sorcery. Tappout strats doens't work well with counters and the value do not compensate.
Now I'll talk about over performed cards:
Scrapcaster Hulk aka Torrential Gearhulk
This guy is awesome. Every time I draw it I got a bonner. He have a good body to pressure opponent's life and def, You can make it on pass and get value on counterspells, draws and spot removals. He's good to activate delirium (artifact creature) and with Nahiri -8, it's get more value then a Mac Donalds meal.
I'm considering move it to three, but I'm pretty sure that two copies is enough.
Confirm Suspicious
Awesome card. It get so many value when you cast and It's incredible with scrappy hulk.
Revolutionary Rebuff
This card is balls. Uwr usually suffers a lot against pw's and this one catchs some lili's on t3 (which is very hard to deal with) and other issues.
Some final considerations (finally He stopped):
Again, uwr is really fragile against pw's. They have a lot of loyalty nowadays and Needle Spires usually can't trade it right away.
That's the reason why I play Nahiri's Wrath. The card isn't so bad against aggro, being often a 3 mana wrath (Sometimes we get valor discarding take inventory) and It's an ok answer to pw's.
I'm considering taking off cathartic reunion(was good to cycle large drops on starting hand like Scour the lab and helping on delirium but idk if it's belong here) and put Emmy Spaghetti as an additional Win-Con or maybe coax from the blind eternities in the 75's. This is because I always get my three creatures everygame and It's easy for our opponents respond. Usually manlands closes the game, but I'd prefer something a little bit faster.
Nahiri is the all star, She's capable to respond vehicles, creatures and trouble nonland permanents, put a good pressure on board, cycle cards for answers with high loyalty and give us a good value with ETB creatures like Linvala and Scrappy Hulk.
The hardest problem in deck is achieve delirium fast, but only playing 4 delirium cards, It's something that demand attention but We can play around.
English isn't my native language, so my bad if some parts got confused.
I'm playtesting an uwr build since KLD got released and till now I'm very satisfied.
Going to bite some nuts with this brew on next FNM.
I know that esper should be a better call right now, considering black have murder and ruinous path as unconditional removals,anguished unmaking to deal with nonland permanents, Sorin, Grim Nemesis with some lifegain, card draw and conditional spot removal and more interesting cards like grasp, hand removal and black helix.
So why did u go for uwr?
It was supposed to be better against aggrofest. Ppl always go for cancer decks in the beginning of season and red offers some cheap and good removals as harnessed lightning, radiant flames in sb, which is not so good atm against vehicles or selfless spirit and our MVP Nahiri, the Harbinger.
Some thoughts about this deck and some cards I play tested.
I'll start talking about the bad Kaladesh cards.
Perpetual Timepiece
When I started this brew, I was trying to make a draw go style which I could play for infinite hours against my opponents and for a moment, this card seemed a good option. But SPOILER ALERT - It's not. I barely used the perpetual pieceof***** and every time I drew it, a part of my soul has departed.
Right, you don't have to be a genious to notice that card probably suck, BUT who played with elixir of immortality should feel my pain. MY MIND IS TELLING ME NO, BUT MY BODY...
Next all star of my deck sucks is... Dovin Baan
Ok, I tried this ***** so much and It was disappointing so many times. I FEEL LIKE I WAS DATING A 3D GIRL.
I'll start for his +1.
He protects himself from a creature and sometimes the activated abilities lockdown is usefull. I got games, for example, that I used +1 on selfeless spirit on t4 and did the blowouts with Fumigate on t5. Sure, It doesn't happen often, but when It does.. oh boy. But in most cases, when they don't have black to ruinous path it, in some points of game, the -3 isn't enough. Field is replete of manlands and vehicles so He usually enters and get pressured or killed right on spot, usually for this hotweels right here -> fleetwheel cruiser.
So, why don't use the -1 then? Cuz draw a card and get 2 life for 2uw isn't a good trade. If you start with -1, He dies for everything. Any manland on standard kick his ass and the upside isn't good. Moreover, if u start to minus him, you won't to stop it till u draw at least two cards and if you are not in control mirror or playing against your pillow, It's not going to happen.
Finally, his ultimate. If you achieve this miracle, you are not going to win in the spot and you still can loose the game.
Basically, his abilities aren't strong enough atm. You hardly want to tappout in t4 to make him or want to draw it in matchs u were behind.
next big crap: Authority of the Consuls
Well, used 4 on my sideboard for a short time and It's weak. Creatures entering tapped doesn't make diff for control players, cuz they can't atk anws and We don't have so many haste creatures playing right now. The life gain is interesting, makes It not be so bad in multiples, even so It doesn't compensate the four slots in sb. When I tried this one, I was expecting more UR visions, so is the typically meta game call card.
I stopped to use this card when I got my ass ****ed by insane hotweels fleetwheel cruiser cuz It doens't work for vehicles.
This one wasn't disappointing. It's just don't payoff. Pay 4 to draw 2 instant and get 2 energy, is ok if you have what to do with energy counters. And in my shell, they were useless. Maybe in a shell more focused in confiscation coup it could over perform, but in my actual spot, I prefer pay 2UU and draw 3 with scour the laboratory.
Other cards I've tested.
Just a note here:
In my playtests I missed more spot removals. The awful 5 mana wrath hardly gets a good value (usually I get it for 2 creatures when my opponent is good) and I tested some of them.
Immolating Glare - It was ok. Isn't good against tracker and you have to use in combat phase, but It's ok overall.
sweep away - It was ok. It was good against gideon and emerge strats. My plan was to buy some time to set up a good wrath and land drops. Honestly, I didn't give up on this one.
roil spout - It's bad. The cost is restrictive and is sorcery. Tappout strats doens't work well with counters and the value do not compensate.
Now I'll talk about over performed cards:
Scrapcaster Hulk aka Torrential Gearhulk
This guy is awesome. Every time I draw it I got a bonner. He have a good body to pressure opponent's life and def, You can make it on pass and get value on counterspells, draws and spot removals. He's good to activate delirium (artifact creature) and with Nahiri -8, it's get more value then a Mac Donalds meal.
I'm considering move it to three, but I'm pretty sure that two copies is enough.
Confirm Suspicious
Awesome card. It get so many value when you cast and It's incredible with scrappy hulk.
Revolutionary Rebuff
This card is balls. Uwr usually suffers a lot against pw's and this one catchs some lili's on t3 (which is very hard to deal with) and other issues.
Some final considerations (finally He stopped):
Again, uwr is really fragile against pw's. They have a lot of loyalty nowadays and Needle Spires usually can't trade it right away.
That's the reason why I play Nahiri's Wrath. The card isn't so bad against aggro, being often a 3 mana wrath (Sometimes we get valor discarding take inventory) and It's an ok answer to pw's.
I'm considering taking off cathartic reunion(was good to cycle large drops on starting hand like Scour the lab and helping on delirium but idk if it's belong here) and put Emmy Spaghetti as an additional Win-Con or maybe coax from the blind eternities in the 75's. This is because I always get my three creatures everygame and It's easy for our opponents respond. Usually manlands closes the game, but I'd prefer something a little bit faster.
Nahiri is the all star, She's capable to respond vehicles, creatures and trouble nonland permanents, put a good pressure on board, cycle cards for answers with high loyalty and give us a good value with ETB creatures like Linvala and Scrappy Hulk.
The hardest problem in deck is achieve delirium fast, but only playing 4 delirium cards, It's something that demand attention but We can play around.
English isn't my native language, so my bad if some parts got confused.
PEACE
My experience with Dovin Baan and Glimmer Of Genius have been great so far. Perhaps it is the general purpose/construction of your deck not fitting? I am playing Esper, and these two have been standouts. Dovin buys a lot of time, and if unchecked, buries your opponent in card advantage. he also gains life, so if he gets killed against aggro, you still come out ahead. He bridges the gap to Fumigate perfectly. You always get something out of the deal. 2 life, 1 card, plus whatever card, attacker they waste on it. Virtual "3 for 1". Neutering Selfless Spirit has also been great, I crushed U/W Spirits at FNM with Liliana and Dovin. He never really got started.
My experience with Dovin Baan and Glimmer Of Genius have been great so far. Perhaps it is the general purpose/construction of your deck not fitting? I am playing Esper, and these two have been standouts. Dovin buys a lot of time, and if unchecked, buries your opponent in card advantage. he also gains life, so if he gets killed against aggro, you still come out ahead. He bridges the gap to Fumigate perfectly. You always get something out of the deal. 2 life, 1 card, plus whatever card, attacker they waste on it. Virtual "3 for 1". Neutering Selfless Spirit has also been great, I crushed U/W Spirits at FNM with Liliana and Dovin. He never really got started.
Yea, probably my shell isn't good enough to support him.
I don't have many fumigates to curve him and try to open some advantage or a good tappout on t3 as Lili, to curve Baan. And black have better spots removals to trade and help to protect him. I've tested him in two differents decks but not in esper yet. Mind share your list?
In ogw we got comparative analysis and It never saw play, that's why I think Glimmer of Genius don't have a great upside at his favor right now. Ok, It'll give some fuel to Aether Hub, but surge on comparative analysis seems way more interesting.
Still, none of these cards have a great upside that make it worth for me.
My experience with Dovin Baan and Glimmer Of Genius have been great so far. Perhaps it is the general purpose/construction of your deck not fitting? I am playing Esper, and these two have been standouts. Dovin buys a lot of time, and if unchecked, buries your opponent in card advantage. he also gains life, so if he gets killed against aggro, you still come out ahead. He bridges the gap to Fumigate perfectly. You always get something out of the deal. 2 life, 1 card, plus whatever card, attacker they waste on it. Virtual "3 for 1". Neutering Selfless Spirit has also been great, I crushed U/W Spirits at FNM with Liliana and Dovin. He never really got started.
Yea, probably my shell isn't good enough to support him.
I don't have many fumigates to curve him and try to open some advantage or a good tappout on t3 as Lili, to curve Baan. And black have better spots removals to trade and help to protect him. I've tested him in two differents decks but not in esper yet. Mind share your list?
In ogw we got comparative analysis and It never saw play, that's why I think Glimmer of Genius don't have a great upside at his favor right now. Ok, It'll give some fuel to Aether Hub, but surge on comparative analysis seems way more interesting.
Still, none of these cards have a great upside that make it worth for me.
In oath of the Gatewatch we still had access to read the bones. Scry 2 draw 2 is leagues ahead of "draw 2" in terms of raw power.
Not only where you paying effectively one additional mana for the draw effect, you were getting less from it.
The sorcery speed in that case was worth it. If instead of surge comparative analysis had scry 2 (or simply cost 2U with no surge cost) it probably would have seen play.
As it was, you were paying more mana for a worse effect.
That's a weird way to spend your 5th turn and also expensive, and a 1 of as well. What also scratches my head is the 1 of Ayli. What does she do other then being a blocker, assuming you don't have zombie tokens to be sacrificing. Seems wasteful to sac her. Side deck has non searchable 1 ofs as well.
There's several dicussions on specifically Esper on the UB(x) thread I started a while back. That said, I'd be interested in TripleAgent's list too... Maybe he could post over there as well to keep things going on a more focussed thread?
Do you have a list you'd be willing to share? I'm also on Esper (my list is somewhere on pg5) and would love to see how others are building it.
I don't have time to divulge to deep with my list and match details. I have been playtesting esper for the SCG regionals (usually about 230-300 players). 10 games no board
UR Vehicles 5/5
GB Delirium 7/3
Temurge 8/2
UW Control 6/4
Aetherworks 8/2
BW Control 7/3
RB Aggro 4/6
Aggro is a tough match up but does get better in the board. Copter can be a nightmare so extra answers are nice. Rejection was a 2 now a 3 and probably will be a 4 of. Counter copter, thought-knot, hulks, aether, void shatter
Would something like this be a reasonable control deck to consider? It's not exactly conventional, but U/W has really solid creatures that get decent value when you pick them up. Same for enchantments. This might be closer to U/W midrange though.
Those are some pretty good numbers. When you have the time and inclination to reveal your list that would be great! I'm trying to find room for Rejection in my list, but no luck so far.
I'm trying to build a U/W Control Deck that splashes B for Anguished Unmaking and Shambling Vent. I'm not entirely sure what the optimal manabase for such a light splash is. I like the idea of Aether Hub as it gives an outlet for the additional energy you get from Glimmer of Genius, but it makes the rest of the lands come into play untapped less consistently. Maybe I can cut some number of the Vents for more basics? Any ideas?
So after watching Jeff Hoogland play his Jeskai Flash deck there are 2 general points I'd like to make.
The first is that I believe energy in the format will be used in a control shell as a mana fixer. I had been under the impression that energy needed to build to some large, game changing card or effect to make the effort of using it worth while, but it turns out Aether Hub is the energy pay off for a 3 color deck. Probably not to the extent that Stasis Snare, Void Shatter, and Grasp of Darkness could all be used in the same deck, but there is enough wiggle room now so that Grasp, Gideon, and a 3rd color can all live in the same deck. I'll have to examine the cards and see where everything fits for the mana bass, but I was really impressed with how Jeff's mana worked. He gained enough energy from the hubs and Harnessed Lightning and Glimmer of Genius to keep the colors flowing from hub, but there's also Live Fast and Aether Meltdown all of which are actually individually powerful enough to be a reasonable choice even with out energy, but when their inclusion means Aehter Hub can reliably be cast for any color, the energy theme starts to come to life. I'm still undecided on Die Young, when Grasp just seems so much better. The 3 most natural colors would be Jeskai, Esper, and Grixis. I'll need to take a closer look at Jeff's deck and the available spells and colors, but if you want to go 3 colors, Aether Hub and energy gaining cards seems to be the way to go.
If you want to play control having creatures on the top end simply isn't enough. I really like the idea behind a flash deck that uses Archangel Avacyn and Torrential Gearhulk as the top end threats you use to end the game, and even though these are some powerful creatures with game changing abilities, they seem to simply fall short. I'm not sure if it's because premium removal is so cheap and even the quickest of aggro decks use them, or if it's that aggro has a fairly high level of recursion and card draw, but the fact remains, these creatures seem to lack enough power to close out a game. Personally, I think walkers are the way to go, as having a gideon on the board for 2 turns, then casting a Sorin, Grim Nemesis and having both stick is going to win any game it seems like. Even Sorin alone, if he can kill a large threat, gain you some life, then draw you 3 cards, all for 6 mana, is way more than any Gearhulk can do. The way this format is shaping up seems to be.... I'd call it scrappy. The matches seem to be slug fests with the winner being the player that is actually able to stick a threat, and a planeswalker upticking to ultimate is virtually a guaranteed victory, and in my opinion the best threat to try and stick. I think there are some other options available to control players, something along the lines of Dynavolt Tower and Metallurgic Summonings could definitely be a deck, not sure. My point is the days of loading a deck with removal, card draw, and some 5-6 CMC mythic rare creatures simply doesn't seem to be enough to win as a control deck. The power just doesn't seem to be there, so you need to find a more powerful alternative top end. Of course being creatureless in game 1 lets you sb in your creatures for game 2 aka Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, and hopefully the opponent has taken out all their removal, but I think it a mistake to rely on creatures as you're primary win condition. Unless of course you want to win with creatures, at which point I'd say just go G/W and hulk smash your opponents.
Some more specific points after watching most of SCG open. Smuggler's Copter is the real deal, and instant speed removal is now necessary. I'd even go so far to say after watching the open to main deck Fragmentize, but it might still be too early to tell. Either way, I think all removal needs to be instant speed. Some sorceries will of course still be necessary, specifically your sweepers, but your 1 for 1 creature removal has to be instant speed. Vehicles in general, but specifically the copter, are just too powerful not to have an answer to. Also, I've been complaining about it for a while, but Fevered Visions is still the worst thing a control player can see on turn 3. I'd strongly advise multiple answers to this card ready for game 2. Emrakul is still in decks, so Lost Legacy is a must for the sideboard.
All that being said I still think B/W is the way to go. It has the most powerful planeswalkers, some of the best and most efficient removal, and while the card draw isn't the best, the consistency of playing 2 colors coupled with the raw card advantage the walkers give you one of the most powerful decks in the format. Right now I'm just deciding if and how I want either Immolating Glare and Stasis Snare in the deck.
So I just got back from a great testing session with my playgroup. Easily 3-0ed Toss Ross GW and went 1-1 vs a Grixis Emerge (he nut drew on the play G1 and I didn't have the 2nd white on T5 for Fumigate). All games were preboard.
So, I've been brewing a mythic midrange deck similiar to Antrazi played at the open.
Instead of the PW route I am going a displacer route. Not sure if its feasible, but I am thinking there is potential there.
There's several dicussions on specifically Esper on the UB(x) thread I started a while back. That said, I'd be interested in TripleAgent's list too... Maybe he could post over there as well to keep things going on a more focussed thread?
I'm pretty busy at work. Is there an easy way to post a decklist? I'm also a crappy typist. If not, I'll try to get around to it, but no promises. I'll try to post it in the U/B/x thread.
I am planning on bringing this Mardu-Control list to FNM this week and then to a GP qualifier the following Saturday. I am curious if I should tweak anything. My first thoughts on tweaking this is adding Nahiri or replacing radiant flames with Nahiri's wrath, but Radiant Flames isn't that difficult to get on turn 3.
The main reason for red is because of instant speed removal for Copter and it also allows me to play more of a draw-go style of play with 18 instants. Harnessed Lightning also provides an extra energy or two for Aether Hub if I use it on an X/1 or X/2 creature. I believe Chandra is a better finisher than Sorin, but I may be wrong on that end as I haven't player standard since Khans.
One of the weaknesses seems to be the control matchup. Kambal seems great, but other than that and Ruinous Path for PW, I think I could utilize the SB better for that matchup.
The land base I find to be consistent. 22 Black sources, including the Evolving Wilds/Aether Hub, 11 untapped on turn 2. 18 White sources, including the Evolving Wilds/Aether Hub, 9 untapped turn 2 (only need to be casting Blessed Alliance, but even that is more likely to be cast on turn 4). 15 Red sources, Do I need 16 or 17? I don't NEED to be casting harnessed lightning turn 2 every game, but it is nice because turn 3 I have other players I would like to be doing in most games.
This is a "control" build I'm considering running in the new format.
It takes a page from Ali Aintrazi's open's list. Still int the process of testing different possibilities.
I kind of want to make this work just for the sweet name: Mythic Marvel
If you want to play control having creatures on the top end simply isn't enough. I really like the idea behind a flash deck that uses Archangel Avacyn and Torrential Gearhulk as the top end threats you use to end the game, and even though these are some powerful creatures with game changing abilities, they seem to simply fall short. I'm not sure if it's because premium removal is so cheap and even the quickest of aggro decks use them, or if it's that aggro has a fairly high level of recursion and card draw, but the fact remains, these creatures seem to lack enough power to close out a game. Personally, I think walkers are the way to go, as having a gideon on the board for 2 turns, then casting a Sorin, Grim Nemesis and having both stick is going to win any game it seems like. Even Sorin alone, if he can kill a large threat, gain you some life, then draw you 3 cards, all for 6 mana, is way more than any Gearhulk can do. The way this format is shaping up seems to be.... I'd call it scrappy. The matches seem to be slug fests with the winner being the player that is actually able to stick a threat, and a planeswalker upticking to ultimate is virtually a guaranteed victory, and in my opinion the best threat to try and stick. I think there are some other options available to control players, something along the lines of Dynavolt Tower and Metallurgic Summonings could definitely be a deck, not sure. My point is the days of loading a deck with removal, card draw, and some 5-6 CMC mythic rare creatures simply doesn't seem to be enough to win as a control deck. The power just doesn't seem to be there, so you need to find a more powerful alternative top end. Of course being creatureless in game 1 lets you sb in your creatures for game 2 aka Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, and hopefully the opponent has taken out all their removal, but I think it a mistake to rely on creatures as you're primary win condition. Unless of course you want to win with creatures, at which point I'd say just go G/W and hulk smash your opponents
While I can agree with the points you are making and believe having a few different threats is definitely the way to go, I do want to suggest Sphinx of the final word as a top end creature that doesn't turn on the opponents removal (minus fumigate of course) and whose ability can be relevant in the mirror.
Sphinx, Emrakul, and the 3/3 you cast from exile are probably the three most resilient threats in the format. Sphinx makes any mirror match a lot easier.
Sphinx, Emrakul, and the 3/3 you cast from exile are probably the three most resilient threats in the format. Sphinx makes any mirror match a lot easier.
It dies to a flashed back K Return. It's great in control mirrors, but that's really the only place I'd actively want it.
Sphinx, Emrakul, and the 3/3 you cast from exile are probably the three most resilient threats in the format. Sphinx makes any mirror match a lot easier.
It dies to a flashed back K Return. It's great in control mirrors, but that's really the only place I'd actively want it.
How would it be terrible? It can cast counter magic. It can cast mass removal. It can cast card draw. All at instant speed.
It seems exactly what a control deck would want? Having a way to instant cast fuminate... seems very powerful.
I'm playtesting an uwr build since KLD got released and till now I'm very satisfied.
Going to bite some nuts with this brew on next FNM.
I know that esper should be a better call right now, considering black have murder and ruinous path as unconditional removals,anguished unmaking to deal with nonland permanents, Sorin, Grim Nemesis with some lifegain, card draw and conditional spot removal and more interesting cards like grasp, hand removal and black helix.
So why did u go for uwr?
It was supposed to be better against aggrofest. Ppl always go for cancer decks in the beginning of season and red offers some cheap and good removals as harnessed lightning, radiant flames in sb, which is not so good atm against vehicles or selfless spirit and our MVP Nahiri, the Harbinger.
bla bla bla, no one cares, give us a list
UWR Nahiri Control
4 needle spires
4 aether hub
3 wandering fumarole
4 evolving wilds
3 prarie stream
2 port town
3 island
2 plains
2 mountain
Creatures (3)
2 Torrential gearhulk
1 Linvala, the preserver
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
Instant (15)
4 Revolutionary Rebuff
2 anticipate
4 harnessed lightning
1 confirm suspicious
1 failed inspection
3 Scour the Laboratory
Sorcery (11)
2 Fumigate
1 Descending upon the Sinful
4 take inventory
2 Nahiri's Wrath
2 cathartic reunion
3 Negate
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 dispel
1 Confiscation Coup
1 Jace, unraveler of secrets
3 radiant flames
3 fragmentize
1 blessed aliance
1 immolating glare
Some thoughts about this deck and some cards I play tested.
I'll start talking about the bad Kaladesh cards.
Perpetual Timepiece
When I started this brew, I was trying to make a draw go style which I could play for infinite hours against my opponents and for a moment, this card seemed a good option. But SPOILER ALERT - It's not. I barely used the perpetual pieceof***** and every time I drew it, a part of my soul has departed.
Right, you don't have to be a genious to notice that card probably suck, BUT who played with elixir of immortality should feel my pain. MY MIND IS TELLING ME NO, BUT MY BODY...
Next all star of my deck sucks is... Dovin Baan
Ok, I tried this ***** so much and It was disappointing so many times. I FEEL LIKE I WAS DATING A 3D GIRL.
I'll start for his +1.
He protects himself from a creature and sometimes the activated abilities lockdown is usefull. I got games, for example, that I used +1 on selfeless spirit on t4 and did the blowouts with Fumigate on t5. Sure, It doesn't happen often, but when It does.. oh boy. But in most cases, when they don't have black to ruinous path it, in some points of game, the -3 isn't enough. Field is replete of manlands and vehicles so He usually enters and get pressured or killed right on spot, usually for this hotweels right here -> fleetwheel cruiser.
So, why don't use the -1 then? Cuz draw a card and get 2 life for 2uw isn't a good trade. If you start with -1, He dies for everything. Any manland on standard kick his ass and the upside isn't good. Moreover, if u start to minus him, you won't to stop it till u draw at least two cards and if you are not in control mirror or playing against your pillow, It's not going to happen.
Finally, his ultimate. If you achieve this miracle, you are not going to win in the spot and you still can loose the game.
Basically, his abilities aren't strong enough atm. You hardly want to tappout in t4 to make him or want to draw it in matchs u were behind.
next big crap: Authority of the Consuls
Well, used 4 on my sideboard for a short time and It's weak. Creatures entering tapped doesn't make diff for control players, cuz they can't atk anws and We don't have so many haste creatures playing right now. The life gain is interesting, makes It not be so bad in multiples, even so It doesn't compensate the four slots in sb. When I tried this one, I was expecting more UR visions, so is the typically meta game call card.
I stopped to use this card when I got my ass ****ed by insane hotweels fleetwheel cruiser cuz It doens't work for vehicles.
Last one: Glimmer of Genious
This one wasn't disappointing. It's just doesn't payoff. Pay 4 to draw 2 instant and get 2 energy, is ok if you have what to do with energy counters. And in my shell, they were useless. Maybe in a shell more focused in confiscation coup it could over perform, but in my actual spot, I prefer pay 2UU and draw 3 with scour the laboratory.
Other cards I've tested.
Just a note here:
In my playtests I missed more spot removals. The awful 5 mana wrath hardly gets a good value (usually I get it for 2 creatures when my opponent is good) and I tested some of them.
Immolating Glare - It was ok. Isn't good against tracker and you have to use in combat phase, but It's ok overall.
sweep away - It was ok. It was good against gideon and emerge strats. My plan was to buy some time to set up a good wrath and land drops. Honestly, I didn't give up on this one.
roil spout - It's bad. The cost is restrictive and is sorcery. Tappout strats doens't work well with counters and the value do not compensate.
Now I'll talk about over performed cards:
Scrapcaster Hulk aka Torrential Gearhulk
This guy is awesome. Every time I draw it I got a bonner. He have a good body to pressure opponent's life and def, You can make it on pass and get value on counterspells, draws and spot removals. He's good to activate delirium (artifact creature) and with Nahiri -8, it's get more value then a Mac Donalds meal.
I'm considering move it to three, but I'm pretty sure that two copies is enough.
Needle Spires
Best manland in block. NEXT
Confirm Suspicious
Awesome card. It get so many value when you cast and It's incredible with scrappy hulk.
Revolutionary Rebuff
This card is balls. Uwr usually suffers a lot against pw's and this one catchs some lili's on t3 (which is very hard to deal with) and other issues.
Some final considerations (finally He stopped):
Again, uwr is really fragile against pw's. They have a lot of loyalty nowadays and Needle Spires usually can't trade it right away.
That's the reason why I play Nahiri's Wrath. The card isn't so bad against aggro, being often a 3 mana wrath (Sometimes we get valor discarding take inventory) and It's an ok answer to pw's.
I'm considering taking off cathartic reunion(was good to cycle large drops on starting hand like Scour the lab and helping on delirium but idk if it's belong here) and put Emmy Spaghetti as an additional Win-Con or maybe coax from the blind eternities in the 75's. This is because I always get my three creatures everygame and It's easy for our opponents respond. Usually manlands closes the game, but I'd prefer something a little bit faster.
Nahiri is the all star, She's capable to respond vehicles, creatures and trouble nonland permanents, put a good pressure on board, cycle cards for answers with high loyalty and give us a good value with ETB creatures like Linvala and Scrappy Hulk.
The hardest problem in deck is achieve delirium fast, but only playing 4 delirium cards, It's something that demand attention but We can play around.
English isn't my native language, so my bad if some parts got confused.
PEACE
My experience with Dovin Baan and Glimmer Of Genius have been great so far. Perhaps it is the general purpose/construction of your deck not fitting? I am playing Esper, and these two have been standouts. Dovin buys a lot of time, and if unchecked, buries your opponent in card advantage. he also gains life, so if he gets killed against aggro, you still come out ahead. He bridges the gap to Fumigate perfectly. You always get something out of the deal. 2 life, 1 card, plus whatever card, attacker they waste on it. Virtual "3 for 1". Neutering Selfless Spirit has also been great, I crushed U/W Spirits at FNM with Liliana and Dovin. He never really got started.
Glimmer is just flat out good. It's instant Read The Bones, and feeds your Aether Hubs.
http://decks.tcgplayer.com/magic/standard/daniel-duan/w-b-control/1270232
Alot of one ofs that I can make sense of why go that route without a way to search them.
Thalia's Lancers searches for all of the legendary cards.
Yea, probably my shell isn't good enough to support him.
I don't have many fumigates to curve him and try to open some advantage or a good tappout on t3 as Lili, to curve Baan. And black have better spots removals to trade and help to protect him. I've tested him in two differents decks but not in esper yet. Mind share your list?
In ogw we got comparative analysis and It never saw play, that's why I think Glimmer of Genius don't have a great upside at his favor right now. Ok, It'll give some fuel to Aether Hub, but surge on comparative analysis seems way more interesting.
Still, none of these cards have a great upside that make it worth for me.
In oath of the Gatewatch we still had access to read the bones. Scry 2 draw 2 is leagues ahead of "draw 2" in terms of raw power.
Not only where you paying effectively one additional mana for the draw effect, you were getting less from it.
The sorcery speed in that case was worth it. If instead of surge comparative analysis had scry 2 (or simply cost 2U with no surge cost) it probably would have seen play.
As it was, you were paying more mana for a worse effect.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Do you have a list you'd be willing to share? I'm also on Esper (my list is somewhere on pg5) and would love to see how others are building it.
I don't have time to divulge to deep with my list and match details. I have been playtesting esper for the SCG regionals (usually about 230-300 players). 10 games no board
UR Vehicles 5/5
GB Delirium 7/3
Temurge 8/2
UW Control 6/4
Aetherworks 8/2
BW Control 7/3
RB Aggro 4/6
Aggro is a tough match up but does get better in the board. Copter can be a nightmare so extra answers are nice. Rejection was a 2 now a 3 and probably will be a 4 of. Counter copter, thought-knot, hulks, aether, void shatter
4x Aether Hub
6x Island
6x Plains
4x Port Town
4x Prairie Stream
3x Blessed Alliance
4x Paradoxical Outcome
4x Revolutionary Rebuff
Enchantment (6)
3x Quarantine Field
3x Stasis Snare
4x Reflector Mage
4x Spell Queller
4x Thraben Inspector
2x Archangel Avacyn
Sorcery (3)
3x Fumigate
2x Dovin Baan
Would something like this be a reasonable control deck to consider? It's not exactly conventional, but U/W has really solid creatures that get decent value when you pick them up. Same for enchantments. This might be closer to U/W midrange though.
4 Torrential Gearhulk
Spells:24
4 Glimmer of Genius
4 Immolating Glare
4 Void Shatter
4 Fumigate
4 Anguished Unmaking
2 Negate
1 Fragmentize
1 Blessed Alliance
3 Dovin Baan
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Lands: 26
6 Island
6 Plains
2 Port Town
2 Prairie Stream
2 Sunken Hollow
4 Shambling Vent
4 Aether Hub
I'm trying to build a U/W Control Deck that splashes B for Anguished Unmaking and Shambling Vent. I'm not entirely sure what the optimal manabase for such a light splash is. I like the idea of Aether Hub as it gives an outlet for the additional energy you get from Glimmer of Genius, but it makes the rest of the lands come into play untapped less consistently. Maybe I can cut some number of the Vents for more basics? Any ideas?
The first is that I believe energy in the format will be used in a control shell as a mana fixer. I had been under the impression that energy needed to build to some large, game changing card or effect to make the effort of using it worth while, but it turns out Aether Hub is the energy pay off for a 3 color deck. Probably not to the extent that Stasis Snare, Void Shatter, and Grasp of Darkness could all be used in the same deck, but there is enough wiggle room now so that Grasp, Gideon, and a 3rd color can all live in the same deck. I'll have to examine the cards and see where everything fits for the mana bass, but I was really impressed with how Jeff's mana worked. He gained enough energy from the hubs and Harnessed Lightning and Glimmer of Genius to keep the colors flowing from hub, but there's also Live Fast and Aether Meltdown all of which are actually individually powerful enough to be a reasonable choice even with out energy, but when their inclusion means Aehter Hub can reliably be cast for any color, the energy theme starts to come to life. I'm still undecided on Die Young, when Grasp just seems so much better. The 3 most natural colors would be Jeskai, Esper, and Grixis. I'll need to take a closer look at Jeff's deck and the available spells and colors, but if you want to go 3 colors, Aether Hub and energy gaining cards seems to be the way to go.
If you want to play control having creatures on the top end simply isn't enough. I really like the idea behind a flash deck that uses Archangel Avacyn and Torrential Gearhulk as the top end threats you use to end the game, and even though these are some powerful creatures with game changing abilities, they seem to simply fall short. I'm not sure if it's because premium removal is so cheap and even the quickest of aggro decks use them, or if it's that aggro has a fairly high level of recursion and card draw, but the fact remains, these creatures seem to lack enough power to close out a game. Personally, I think walkers are the way to go, as having a gideon on the board for 2 turns, then casting a Sorin, Grim Nemesis and having both stick is going to win any game it seems like. Even Sorin alone, if he can kill a large threat, gain you some life, then draw you 3 cards, all for 6 mana, is way more than any Gearhulk can do. The way this format is shaping up seems to be.... I'd call it scrappy. The matches seem to be slug fests with the winner being the player that is actually able to stick a threat, and a planeswalker upticking to ultimate is virtually a guaranteed victory, and in my opinion the best threat to try and stick. I think there are some other options available to control players, something along the lines of Dynavolt Tower and Metallurgic Summonings could definitely be a deck, not sure. My point is the days of loading a deck with removal, card draw, and some 5-6 CMC mythic rare creatures simply doesn't seem to be enough to win as a control deck. The power just doesn't seem to be there, so you need to find a more powerful alternative top end. Of course being creatureless in game 1 lets you sb in your creatures for game 2 aka Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, and hopefully the opponent has taken out all their removal, but I think it a mistake to rely on creatures as you're primary win condition. Unless of course you want to win with creatures, at which point I'd say just go G/W and hulk smash your opponents.
Some more specific points after watching most of SCG open. Smuggler's Copter is the real deal, and instant speed removal is now necessary. I'd even go so far to say after watching the open to main deck Fragmentize, but it might still be too early to tell. Either way, I think all removal needs to be instant speed. Some sorceries will of course still be necessary, specifically your sweepers, but your 1 for 1 creature removal has to be instant speed. Vehicles in general, but specifically the copter, are just too powerful not to have an answer to. Also, I've been complaining about it for a while, but Fevered Visions is still the worst thing a control player can see on turn 3. I'd strongly advise multiple answers to this card ready for game 2. Emrakul is still in decks, so Lost Legacy is a must for the sideboard.
All that being said I still think B/W is the way to go. It has the most powerful planeswalkers, some of the best and most efficient removal, and while the card draw isn't the best, the consistency of playing 2 colors coupled with the raw card advantage the walkers give you one of the most powerful decks in the format. Right now I'm just deciding if and how I want either Immolating Glare and Stasis Snare in the deck.
Current List:
4x Aether Hub
3 Choked Estuary
3x Island
3x Plains
4x Shambling Vent
3x Sunken Hollow
1 Blighted Fen
1 Blighted Cataract
4x Swamp
Creature (5)
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3x Torrential Gearhulk
Instant (21)
2x Anguished Unmaking
3x Anticipate
3x Blessed Alliance
3x Glimmer of Genius
3x Grasp of Darkness
2x Immolating Glare
2 Revolutionary Rebuff
3 Void Shatter
1x Dovin Baan
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
1x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
Sorcery (2)
2x Fumigate
1 Anguished Unmaking
1x Ceremonious Rejection
1 Fumigate
1 Summary Dismissal
2x Fragmentize
3x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Lost Legacy
2x Negate
2x Transgress the Mind
I am unsure on whether I want a 3rd Kalitas, otherwise I feel I have a very good build going into Games Days, etc. Currently.
Instead of the PW route I am going a displacer route. Not sure if its feasible, but I am thinking there is potential there.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I'm pretty busy at work. Is there an easy way to post a decklist? I'm also a crappy typist. If not, I'll try to get around to it, but no promises. I'll try to post it in the U/B/x thread.
The main reason for red is because of instant speed removal for Copter and it also allows me to play more of a draw-go style of play with 18 instants. Harnessed Lightning also provides an extra energy or two for Aether Hub if I use it on an X/1 or X/2 creature. I believe Chandra is a better finisher than Sorin, but I may be wrong on that end as I haven't player standard since Khans.
One of the weaknesses seems to be the control matchup. Kambal seems great, but other than that and Ruinous Path for PW, I think I could utilize the SB better for that matchup.
The land base I find to be consistent. 22 Black sources, including the Evolving Wilds/Aether Hub, 11 untapped on turn 2. 18 White sources, including the Evolving Wilds/Aether Hub, 9 untapped turn 2 (only need to be casting Blessed Alliance, but even that is more likely to be cast on turn 4). 15 Red sources, Do I need 16 or 17? I don't NEED to be casting harnessed lightning turn 2 every game, but it is nice because turn 3 I have other players I would like to be doing in most games.
Can I afford to slot in 1 Blighted Fen?
4x Aether Hub
4x Concealed Courtyard
4x evolving wilds
1x Mountain
2x Needle Spires
1x Plains
3x Shambling Vent
4x Smoldering Marsh
3x Swamp
3x Filigree Familiar
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2x Noxious Gearhulk
Planeswalkers (4)
2x Chandra, Flamecaller
2x Ob nixilis, reignited
Instants (18)
3x Anguished Unmaking
2x Blessed Alliance
4x Grasp of Darkness
4x Harnessed Lightning
1x Murder
4x Succumb to Temptation
2x Fumigate
2x Ruinous Path
2x Transgress the Mind
It takes a page from Ali Aintrazi's open's list. Still int the process of testing different possibilities.
I kind of want to make this work just for the sweet name: Mythic Marvel
4x Aether Hub
4x Botanical Sanctum
4x Evolving Wilds
1x Forest
4x Island
3x Plains
4x Prairie Stream
2x Blighted Cataract
3x Aether Theorist
2x Eldrazi Displacer
1x Emrakul, the Promised End
1x Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1x Multiform Wonder
4x Spell Queller
2x Verdurous Gearhulk
4x Blessed Alliance
4x Glimmer of Genius
Sorcery (3)
1x Descend upon the Sinful
2x Fumigate
Planeswalker (6)
2x Nissa, Vital Force
4x Tamiyo, Field Researcher
Enchantment (2)
2x Stasis Snare
1x Aetherworks Marvel
Not sure of Nissa or Wonder in this deck.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
While I can agree with the points you are making and believe having a few different threats is definitely the way to go, I do want to suggest Sphinx of the final word as a top end creature that doesn't turn on the opponents removal (minus fumigate of course) and whose ability can be relevant in the mirror.
Modern: WURG Twin
Standard: Mardu Planeswalkers
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/661834-mardu-planeswalker?comment=1
Monthly Proxy Legacy
Charlotte/Greensboro area, NC
Pm me for details
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
Seems like a card control would love.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Did you mean Dynavolt Tower? Aetherworks seems terrible in a control shell.
It dies to a flashed back K Return. It's great in control mirrors, but that's really the only place I'd actively want it.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
No. I mean Aetherworks Marvel.
How would it be terrible? It can cast counter magic. It can cast mass removal. It can cast card draw. All at instant speed.
It seems exactly what a control deck would want? Having a way to instant cast fuminate... seems very powerful.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA