I liked playing a bigger more midrange version with Fairgrounds Warden. Having ORings you can find off Deepala was insane, especially with EOT crew and sink mana. I ran 3 Gideon, 1 Nahiri and 1 Chandra, I used the mana adding vehicle as well which had some nice curves like Veteran Motorist into Mana rock Vehicle then next turn if the vehicle wasn't in a good attack spot (worthless chump blocker or whatever that would make it not worth it) then Chandra into plus then having the vehicle to make that RR into RRW let me cast most cards in my hand (Fairgrounds Warden, Depala, more vehicles). I enjoyed this sort of shell as a midrange opposed to just aggro and I think that ability to alter between the strategies will allow this archetype to exist in many different metas. Depala is insane as long as there is relevant hits. Feels sort of like playing legacy Goblins with Goblin Ringleader where you are a midrange aggro with control level card advantage.
I liked playing a bigger more midrange version with Fairgrounds Warden. Having ORings you can find off Deepala was insane, especially with EOT crew and sink mana. I ran 3 Gideon, 1 Nahiri and 1 Chandra, I used the mana adding vehicle as well which had some nice curves like Veteran Motorist into Mana rock Vehicle then next turn if the vehicle wasn't in a good attack spot (worthless chump blocker or whatever that would make it not worth it) then Chandra into plus then having the vehicle to make that RR into RRW let me cast most cards in my hand (Fairgrounds Warden, Depala, more vehicles). I enjoyed this sort of shell as a midrange opposed to just aggro and I think that ability to alter between the strategies will allow this archetype to exist in many different metas. Depala is insane as long as there is relevant hits. Feels sort of like playing legacy Goblins with Goblin Ringleader where you are a midrange aggro with control level card advantage.
That might be the way to go because I'm almost certain this coming weekend we are going to see a reckoning of sorts on the early aggro plays that showed up last week. Time will tell if I'm right, but given everyone is already planning to deal with or use copter it's going to get really interesting.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Glad to see this deck is already a proven archetype here. I've been play testing since the set was spoiled, went 4-0 at my first FNM. Ive been play testing this past week at my comic shop and have been running into problems with decks that are still pretty aggressive, but curve just a little bit higher than mine, beating me out with cards like Heron's Grace Champion and Chandra, Torch of Defiance. Whenever my deck is not fast enough to win a game, I usually side out cards like Toolcraft Exemplar in favor of more removable, but I'm thinking this may be the wrong move. Combustible Gearhulk seems like it would be good on the side. Plugging in Gideon for Toolcraft may be the best move to make. Any opinions on what to do against these midrange/aggro decks that curve just a little higher? And generally are a little heavier on removal?
Also decided to post up my decklist. A few key differences from CVM; Speedway Fanatic and Hanweir Garrison have been all stars for me. Garrison does a way better job than Pia Nalaar IMO. Also I don't know why some number of Collective Defiance aren't being played. Gideon's Reproach was in anticipation of vehicle mirrors but given that my list takes a more aggressive approach I think Declaration in Stone might do better in that slot.
Also, Renegade Freighter quite frequently comes down turn 3 after a Speedway Fanatic and smacks for five. It hurts and I think it's def worth a two of.
And the Garrisons help but Start Your Engines has been really impressive. There have been several games where dropping that turn 4 can end it.
I think with start your engines you need to be careful its not just a win more card. I mean yeh T4 wins are great, however if your going to win t5 anyways without it, its more then likely a wasted slot.
yeah i've been satisfied with it as a 2 of. i think I'm gonna cut it from the main though to make room for full sets of Fairgrounds Warden and Declaration in Stone by also cutting defiance. It's really a metagame call, as I get stonewalled easy and am having trouble pushing through.
So while I agree with a lot of your suggestions pulli I have to stay firm on the Hanweir Garrison though. I guess its just a personal choice but the most success I ever had in Standard involved me jamming four copies of Goblin Rabblemaster and ever since I heard garrison called the "new rabble" I keep pushing him in competitive. I also honestly don't think he's any worse than Pia Nalaar. The turn he comes down he's either a decent blocker or he taps right away to crew a Renegade Freighter or [Fleetwheel Cruiser[/card].
MY MAIN QUESTION THOUGH, can people tell me if Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is really a necessary card for this deck? I'm just starting to test him today but I have close to $100 in trades and I'm thinking about dropping for a playlet of him.
So I'll be honest, I haven't touched Standard in the years since original Zendikar was legal (picked a great time to return to a manlands+fastlands format, I guess), but I had Depala.dec as a Kaladesh Sealed pool and one thing led to another and well, RW vehicles!
I was wondering if Collective Effort has any place in the deck, or is the Smuggler's Copter staredown such a big deal that 3cmc sorcery speed spells are a liability?
I run 2 of Collective Effort in my SB I like it there as an extra +1 on all my creature cards plus it can get value by killing a big one of my opponents. I mean +1 on all creatures and killing any threat over 4 power for 3 cmc and a tapped creature is just awesome in this deck.
Whenever I am looking for another four drop option and I am running four doublestriking man lands,
I always think about how good odric, lunarch marshal would be in that situation, not to mention the flying and trample everywhere.
start your engines should be used to "secure" a victory: and it's value is after your creatures are wiped; instead of staying stuck you can attack one last time to get in the 8ish damage the opponent still needs. I run it as a one-of, but might as well run 2 or actually none at all. (replacing it with gideon).
It's also great in a mirror match where you can surprise-kill your opponent. (Mirror looks like it's the die roll who wins the game: as both players will go all out aggro).
Gideon is superior in my opinion, and I don't think the list has room for Gideon and Start Your Engines combined.
Whenever I am looking for another four drop option and I am running four doublestriking man lands, I always think about how good odric, lunarch marshal would be in that situation, not to mention the flying and trample everywhere.
This is fantasy land.
Based on the lists being posted.. there's not enough "always there" abilities to make it worth the slot on a 3/3 (especially a 4 mana 3/3), and to get it from other things requires 3+ cards to make it happen Toolcraft Exemplar and Smuggler's Copter being example. You also will need to keep sinking mana into Needle Spires to get the benefit, which means, unless you're drawing land, you aren't doing anything.
I can go into more detail if you want, but it's just not worth it IMO.
Yeah so I've been play testing a W/R Humans build as opposed to Dwarves. I have to say I think they are a more competitive tribe right now for vehicle aggro, not to mention I enjoy it more personally just because it gives me even more reason to run Hanweir Garrison. Totally cut Start your Engines from my deck now. I definitely agree that Gideon and Fleetwheel Cruiser as 2-2 completes my 4 drop slot for this deck. I've got 2 more fleetwheels on the side as well as 2 more gideons and an extra land (running 23 main).
Has anybody else been having trouble with these crazy energy decks that are popping up now though!? Aetherworks Marvel and Electrostatic Pummeler decks are just combing out before I'm able to deal lethal. Granted its nice to not really have to worry about a lot of removal but they are too fast and more importantly too consistent. Can anybody think of some good ways for red or white to shut down these types of decks?
Galvanic Bombardment + Skywhalers shot or declaration in stone 8 creature removal spells has completely shut down any energy deck I have faced. The only threat is bristling hydra that cant be dealt with by creature removal. I also run a 2 of fragmentize side board which I bring in. Its all about timing your removal, use an instant on your opponents turn to kill the pummeller even if they blow energy to save it, it means them rebuilding energy for their big all in shot. I haven't faced the aetherworks marvel deck but once and I killed them on t5 both times with very little interaction on their side.
Hmm well I run 4 copies of Harnessed Lightning plus 4 copies of Declaration in Stone on main and I'm still siding in two copies of Skywhaler's Shot plus two copies of fragmentize against pummeler decks. It still just doesn't feel like quite enough. Aetherworks marvel decks are really more of the problem I wish there was something that shut down activated abilities of artifacts in standard right now. That deck is a real problem because with all of the small creatures that give you energy when etb along with attune with the aether it is quite easy for them to just drop the marvel t4 or t5 and out comes ulamog or emrakul and theres nothing i can do about it. I'm currently trying to take advantage of their lack of interaction and just pushing the aggression as hard as I can. I've been trying stuff like full sets of Lathnu Hellion out of the side.
Against big eldrazi the best option is stasis snare. Emerakul can't dodge the snare unlike skywhalers shot. Unfortunately, energy decks are far stronger than people realized a week ago.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Thanks Stasis snare is a great suggestion. I was actually disappointed with skywhalers shot for exactly that reason.
I'm actually a bit worried about Emrakul, the promised end in a format without stasis snare to stop it. There's literally nothing else to do against it except Summary Dismissal or getting lucky and removing it from their deck or hand.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Hey everyone, longtime MTGS forum-goer, recently got re-addicted to the cardboard crack with Kaladesh, loving the flavor and very solid cards for standard and other sets to boot. I haven't been able to do much testing yet so there's plenty of critiquing to be done, but here's an aggro build I've gotten so far.
It's pretty straight to the point, I may have focused a little much on getting early artifacts for Toolcraft Exemplar with the 4 Bomat Courier, it seems Thraben Inspector does a similar job but I like the idea that Bomat can take full advantage of the pump spells and swings turn 1. I haven't seen him perform his ability yet, but in theory he's good to have past turn 3-4 if you can keep him alive and drop him early. While it may seem Built to Last is included because of him, it will stand on it's own consistently to pump blocked creatures and prevent removal. Skywhaler's Shot has been equally life-saving, providing a good choice for alternate removal aside from Fairgrounds Warden, and Fiery Temper which is often hits their face for the win. The sideboard is just thrown together depending on if we see mass-sweeps, need to speed up wins, or expect long games, etc. Start your engines has proven to be effective even if you only have 1 vehicle, but the route I've been taking Fleetwheel Cruiser is obviously the better choice.
I like Skysovereign, Consul Flagship, but this isn't supposed to be mid-range as much as it is fast beats, that's why I only have 2 Fleetwheel Cruiser and 3 Sky Skiff (Which I think is underrated due to the hype is big bro Smuggler's Copter has gotten). You want to hit that 2nd turn Toolcraft activation if you can, and turn 4-5 should be the turn you pull out the win. I want to find room for Renegade Freighter, but Pia Nalaar seems to be the more versatile choice for that slot. So far I might take out a Bomat for a Warden or another Fleetwheel, or replace him altogether with Thraben Inspector. Similarly, I would like to find room for a couple Built to Smash main-deck as it can really speed things up as well, Built to Last is better so far though due to not being constrained by attack triggers (Similarly Skywhaler's Shotvs other removal is worth the extra 1-mana for instant versatility and not being locked down by combat triggers {Scry is also super nice gravy})
Been testing a black splash and I never want to play this deck without Scrapheap Scrounger again. Insane value. He keeps coming back to crew your vehicles (and with 3 power can crew everything), and is an artifact for your cards that care about artifacts. Splashing black also gives you Unlicensed Disintegration which, as the RB aggro deck has proven, can single handedly win games in one blowout turn. Strongly recommend trying out the black splash.
Been testing a black splash and I never want to play this deck without Scrapheap Scrounger again. Insane value. He keeps coming back to crew your vehicles (and with 3 power can crew everything), and is an artifact for your cards that care about artifacts. Splashing black also gives you Unlicensed Disintegration which, as the RB aggro deck has proven, can highhandedly win games in one blowout turn. Strongly recommend trying out the black splash.
I was thinking about that too after checking out the RB Copter Madness thread, what's your list? I'm more interested in how you facilitate the splash with the mana base. 4 aether hub should work with a couple RB or WB lands
Been testing a black splash and I never want to play this deck without Scrapheap Scrounger again. Insane value. He keeps coming back to crew your vehicles (and with 3 power can crew everything), and is an artifact for your cards that care about artifacts. Splashing black also gives you Unlicensed Disintegration which, as the RB aggro deck has proven, can single handedly win games in one blowout turn. Strongly recommend trying out the black splash.
I was thinking about that too after checking out the RB Copter Madness thread, what's your list? I'm more interested in how you facilitate the splash with the mana base. 4 aether hub should work with a couple RB or WB lands
I'm still tinkering with the mana base (and the list as a whole, tbh) but I actually did not like Aether Hub in my initial testing, even though there's no double symbols aside form Gideon, only being able to tap the Hub for colored mana once has screwed me up a few times and caused me to mull otherwise keepable hands. (for example a hand with Toolcraft Exemplar and Veteran Motorist with only Aether Hub and a Mountain is an awkward hand to keep)
As I recall, the mardu vehicles deck was interesting because the player literally splashed blue just to run the Ceremonious Rejection. To be frank, it's the one good answer to all the colorless cards running around right now, both eldrazi and artifacts. I may very well buy up Spirebluff Canal just to afford the splash myself as it's quite literally the only instant speed answer for copter next to Immolating Glare.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
As I recall, the mardu vehicles deck was interesting because the player literally splashed blue just to run the Ceremonious Rejection. To be frank, it's the one good answer to all the colorless cards running around right now, both eldrazi and artifacts. I may very well buy up Spirebluff Canal just to afford the splash myself as it's quite literally the only instant speed answer for copter next to Immolating Glare.
I mean, you could just go the 4 aether hub route and use Harnessed Lightning, it was one of the most used red removal spells. I actually only saw Fiery Temper when being ran along side of it in discard or burn.
That might be the way to go because I'm almost certain this coming weekend we are going to see a reckoning of sorts on the early aggro plays that showed up last week. Time will tell if I'm right, but given everyone is already planning to deal with or use copter it's going to get really interesting.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Also decided to post up my decklist. A few key differences from CVM; Speedway Fanatic and Hanweir Garrison have been all stars for me. Garrison does a way better job than Pia Nalaar IMO. Also I don't know why some number of Collective Defiance aren't being played. Gideon's Reproach was in anticipation of vehicle mirrors but given that my list takes a more aggressive approach I think Declaration in Stone might do better in that slot.
Also, Renegade Freighter quite frequently comes down turn 3 after a Speedway Fanatic and smacks for five. It hurts and I think it's def worth a two of.
And the Garrisons help but Start Your Engines has been really impressive. There have been several games where dropping that turn 4 can end it.
4 Toolcraft Exemplar
4 Veteran Motorist
3 Speedway Fanatic
1 Gearshift Ace
4 Depala, Pilot Exemplar
4 Hanweir Garrison
2 Fairgrounds Warden
Vehicles (10)
4 Smuggler's Copter
2 Renegade Freighter
2 Fleetwheel Cruiser
1 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
1 Aradara Express
2 Collective Defiance
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Start Your Engines
Lands (22)
4 Inspiring Vantage
4 Needle Spires
2 Hanweir Battlements
4 Plains
8 Mountain
2 Selfless Spirit
2 Fairgrounds Warden
2 Collective Defiance
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Fleetwheel Cruiser
3 Aerial Responder
So while I agree with a lot of your suggestions pulli I have to stay firm on the Hanweir Garrison though. I guess its just a personal choice but the most success I ever had in Standard involved me jamming four copies of Goblin Rabblemaster and ever since I heard garrison called the "new rabble" I keep pushing him in competitive. I also honestly don't think he's any worse than Pia Nalaar. The turn he comes down he's either a decent blocker or he taps right away to crew a Renegade Freighter or [Fleetwheel Cruiser[/card].
MY MAIN QUESTION THOUGH, can people tell me if Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is really a necessary card for this deck? I'm just starting to test him today but I have close to $100 in trades and I'm thinking about dropping for a playlet of him.
I was wondering if Collective Effort has any place in the deck, or is the Smuggler's Copter staredown such a big deal that 3cmc sorcery speed spells are a liability?
I always think about how good odric, lunarch marshal would be in that situation, not to mention the flying and trample everywhere.
Based on the lists being posted.. there's not enough "always there" abilities to make it worth the slot on a 3/3 (especially a 4 mana 3/3), and to get it from other things requires 3+ cards to make it happen Toolcraft Exemplar and Smuggler's Copter being example. You also will need to keep sinking mana into Needle Spires to get the benefit, which means, unless you're drawing land, you aren't doing anything.
I can go into more detail if you want, but it's just not worth it IMO.
Has anybody else been having trouble with these crazy energy decks that are popping up now though!? Aetherworks Marvel and Electrostatic Pummeler decks are just combing out before I'm able to deal lethal. Granted its nice to not really have to worry about a lot of removal but they are too fast and more importantly too consistent. Can anybody think of some good ways for red or white to shut down these types of decks?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm actually a bit worried about Emrakul, the promised end in a format without stasis snare to stop it. There's literally nothing else to do against it except Summary Dismissal or getting lucky and removing it from their deck or hand.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
6x Plains
4x Mountain
4x Inspiring Vantage
1x Inventors' Fair
4x Needle Spires
2x AEther Hub
1x Blighted Gorge
Creatures
4x Bomat Courier
2x Pia Nalaar
3x Depala, Pilot Exemplar
3x Fairgrounds Warden
4x Veteran Motorist
4x Toolcraft Exemplar
4x Smuggler's Copter
2x Fleetwheel Cruiser
3x Sky Skiff
Spells
3x Built to Last
2x Skywhaler's Shot
4x Fiery Temper
1x Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
2x Built to Smash
2x Start Your Engines
2x Avacyn's Judgment
2x Skywhaler's Shot
2x Collective Effort
4x Borrowed Grace
It's pretty straight to the point, I may have focused a little much on getting early artifacts for Toolcraft Exemplar with the 4 Bomat Courier, it seems Thraben Inspector does a similar job but I like the idea that Bomat can take full advantage of the pump spells and swings turn 1. I haven't seen him perform his ability yet, but in theory he's good to have past turn 3-4 if you can keep him alive and drop him early. While it may seem Built to Last is included because of him, it will stand on it's own consistently to pump blocked creatures and prevent removal. Skywhaler's Shot has been equally life-saving, providing a good choice for alternate removal aside from Fairgrounds Warden, and Fiery Temper which is often hits their face for the win. The sideboard is just thrown together depending on if we see mass-sweeps, need to speed up wins, or expect long games, etc. Start your engines has proven to be effective even if you only have 1 vehicle, but the route I've been taking Fleetwheel Cruiser is obviously the better choice.
I like Skysovereign, Consul Flagship, but this isn't supposed to be mid-range as much as it is fast beats, that's why I only have 2 Fleetwheel Cruiser and 3 Sky Skiff (Which I think is underrated due to the hype is big bro Smuggler's Copter has gotten). You want to hit that 2nd turn Toolcraft activation if you can, and turn 4-5 should be the turn you pull out the win. I want to find room for Renegade Freighter, but Pia Nalaar seems to be the more versatile choice for that slot. So far I might take out a Bomat for a Warden or another Fleetwheel, or replace him altogether with Thraben Inspector. Similarly, I would like to find room for a couple Built to Smash main-deck as it can really speed things up as well, Built to Last is better so far though due to not being constrained by attack triggers (Similarly Skywhaler's Shotvs other removal is worth the extra 1-mana for instant versatility and not being locked down by combat triggers {Scry is also super nice gravy})
I was thinking about that too after checking out the RB Copter Madness thread, what's your list? I'm more interested in how you facilitate the splash with the mana base. 4 aether hub should work with a couple RB or WB lands
I'm still tinkering with the mana base (and the list as a whole, tbh) but I actually did not like Aether Hub in my initial testing, even though there's no double symbols aside form Gideon, only being able to tap the Hub for colored mana once has screwed me up a few times and caused me to mull otherwise keepable hands. (for example a hand with Toolcraft Exemplar and Veteran Motorist with only Aether Hub and a Mountain is an awkward hand to keep)
Here's what my list looks like atm:
4 Toolcraft Exemplar
4 Inventor's Apprentice
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Veteran Motorist
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
3 Depala, Pilot Exemplar
Vehicles
4 Smuggler's Copter
2 Cultivator's Caravan
3 Fleetwheel Cruiser
1 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
4 Unlicensed Disentagration
Land
4 Inspiring Vantage
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Smoldering Marsh
2 Foreboding Ruins
6 Mountain
5 Plains
4 Galvanic Bombardment
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Selfless Spirit
2 Transgress the Mind
3 Fragmentize
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Creatures
4 Toolcraft Exemplar
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Inventor's Apprentice
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
4 Veteran Motorist
3 Depala, Pilot Exemplar
Spells
2 Unlicensed Disintegration
4 Harnessed Lightning
4 Smuggler's Copter
3 Cultivator's Caravan
Lands
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Inspiring Vantage
4 Spirebluff Canal
4 Aether Hub
3 Plains
3 Mountain
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Fragmentize
1 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
4 Ceremonious Rejection
4 Galvanic Bombardment
2 Skywhaler's Shot
I'm super surprised Fleetwheel Cruiser didn't make the cut here and that there are only 2 Unlicensed Disintegration
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Creatures
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Toolcraft Exemplar
3 Selfless Spirit
4 Veteran Motorist
3 Depala, Pilot Exemplar
2 Pia Nalaar
Spells
4 Declaration in Stone
3 Harnessed Lightning
4 Smuggler's Copter
2 Fleetwheel Cruiser
1 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
Lands
4 Needle Spires
4 Inspiring Vantage
6 Mountain
10 Plains
1 Harnessed Lightning
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Galvanic Bombardment
3 Weaver of Lightning
2 Fragmentize
2 Skywhaler's Shot
This one seems more standard, gonna actually watch the matches now and see what worked and what didn't.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I mean, you could just go the 4 aether hub route and use Harnessed Lightning, it was one of the most used red removal spells. I actually only saw Fiery Temper when being ran along side of it in discard or burn.
I think you'd be talking about a completely different deck at that point, and while not necessarily bad it'd certainly be much slower.