Interesting note: Every Mardu Vehicle build that went Top 8 in both GPs with the exception of Jarvis Yu's was the Ballista variant. Seems the added flexibility in combatting the mirror/Cat Combo is more important than stability. The Ballista tech is here to stay and can survive the hate, assuming Cat combo stands.
I have a pptq this weekend, and have the traditional list built. You know, with the toolcrafts, motorists, depala, Gideon, etc. Should I borrow (not an issue to borrow from friends at all) the pieces to play the ballista version and if I do, what is the purpose of adding ballista to the deck? Is it really worth cutting veteran motorist.
Also, shock or push mainboard? I feel like push is a better removal spell but black is harder to come by than red in this deck. Sorry, I'm mainly a modern player trying to stay competitive in standard and the constant deck changes every week confuse how to properly build my deck.
Walking Ballista is fantastic in this deck because of 4c Copycat. It's so easy to undervalue the benefit of being able to go "shields down" and tap out for powerful permanents like Gideon, Ally of Zendikar or any walkers out of the sideboard.
Really think Paul Rietzl's list from GPNJ is the way to go with this archetype. Archangel Avacyn is both phenomenal generally and very potent against 4c Copycat specifically. She dominates combat, does a huge number on the planeswalkers in 4c Copycat (especially as the lists have moved away from Tamiyo, Field Researcher), Copycat has few answers for her, and you never have to let your shields down since she wants to be played in combat or EOT. Avacyn also has tremendous synergy with Ballista, which is where you need to be anyway.
Paul also nailed some of the finer point numbers too - Thalia, Heretic Cathar is the perfect 3-drop for this deck and playing a full three copies instead of the stock two is awesome.
It comes in with your bigger sideboard spells. You don't want to be on just 24 lands if you ever plan on casting Sorin, Grim Nemesis or even Ob Nixilis Reignited.
Beat UB Colossus, GW Midrange, Jund Energy, BG Constrictor, and then Jeskai Saheeli in the finals.
Ran back the same list for FNM for a 4-0. Beating UB Colossus, Mono Black Aetherborns, RB Aggro, and Jeskai Saheeli Midrange.
Went 4-0 at FNM again with the same 75. I'm not going to say that the original Motorist list is better, but I cannot bring myself to play Ballista maindeck in a deck trying to crew 3.
Anyway, matchups: 2-0 BU Improvise, 2-0 WG Human Aggro, 2-1 GB Constrictor, 2-0 UR Zombie/Emerge
The GB match was the toughest. Nearly lost the 3rd game, but a timely Fumigate into their overextended board sealed the deal.
IMO, Ballista is better for a Competitive REL-caliber field where you expect the whole room / >90% of it to be on a tier-1 deck, since it's significantly better in the mirror and against Saheeli combo. But in a more 'open' field Motorist is better. In fact, that's why you saw the progression you did - it's not that Ballista is intrinsically superior, but the field has narrowed massively on MTGO and in the winners' brackets of GPs and Opens in the last few weeks, and Ballista is better against that narrow field. Contrast to the relatively wide-open Pro Tour (where BG, Mardu and Saheeli were known factors, but people were still expecting just about anything), where everyone packed Motorist.
I think I agree with what you are saying re Ballista and a narrow field. Current list with transformative sideboard is pretty tuned to the competitive field. I more of less mention it above as such, as I realise my list isn't likely ideal in that context.
I prefer the Motorist list because it's a bit more aggressive and proactive. The scry 2 and extra pilots are hard to cut for me. Also, I like the versatility of Rebuke against the random combos that don't often show up in the larger events.
Went 4-0 with Ballista list.
2-0: Padeem list? No idea what this homebrew was trying to do, but I cruised over him. B/G Artifacts?
2-1: 4 color saheeli, He kept a greedy hand game one and was his downfall. Game 2 mull to six really didn't pull anything to help pressure or removal. Game 3 hit all the removal and all the sideboard cards I needed to stop the combo.
2-0: Abzan Clues: Game 1 he should have won but over reached and I killed him, I was at 4 life. Game 2: I side boarded poorly because game 1 I didn't really see any creatures in his deck, but they all game about out in game 2. Luckily I had a t4 Nahiri/Heart and good removal, finally got to play Nahiri and Release the Gremlins these cards were rotting in my SB as no matchups made sense. Made 2 Gremlins and Nahiri let me filter too a Gideon and close the game out.
Ballista Is a great value card for me and I don't for see pulling him out anytime soon. I think I'm going to side in shocks for the future as this was the first time I saw 4c Saheeli at the LGS.
I'm planning on playing Mardu at a PPTQ, and I've seen a lot of good results with a similar sideboard plan. When do Nahiri, Ob, and Sorin come in? Is the idea just to transform and blank any removal that the opponent brings in? Looking for your thoughts on the sideboard in general, as well as thoughts on what comes in for the big matchups: 4C Saheeli, BG, Temur...
AGAINst a deck like Temur Tower a lot of mardu is siding in cards like nahiri, sorin, painful truths, and anguished unmasking. But what exactly are they boarding out for these slots?
I'm planning on playing Mardu at a PPTQ, and I've seen a lot of good results with a similar sideboard plan. When do Nahiri, Ob, and Sorin come in? Is the idea just to transform and blank any removal that the opponent brings in? Looking for your thoughts on the sideboard in general, as well as thoughts on what comes in for the big matchups: 4C Saheeli, BG, Temur...
Unmaking is a boss against temur/saheeli, sometimes they'll go shields down at a end of a turn thinking you have a unlicensed and you can exile their tower. No need to explain why it's good against saheeli, lost legacy I've seen in the sideboard and have played it, works really well against 4c, and can take away glimar from temur before they can use one.
BG Counters seems favored for us, watch out for a lost legacy blow out though. Guy took both all my Gideon's and Avaycn's from my deck, but luckily I found a chandra to close the game out.(this deck just isn't fair haha)
Not really a fan as Hellion doesn't have trample and could just be a 1/1, I rather play the White god in that slot.
t1. Tool. 2. Heart. t3. Gideon t4. Truth
Here's hoping the Black god is favorable for us!
It'd like to thank everyone for this soul crushing deck, I'm 9-2 at taking first with it, and 10-1 if you want to count second place at a PPTQ.
It's been a fun ride!
Swapping the full set of Gideons opens up the four slot, and I've been toying with thought knot here. Moving to a set of both colorless/rainbow lands gives 8 sources (although I think we need 11?), trading push/shock for harnessed lightning can help feed the hubs. I propose cutting the 2 Thalia, a shock or push, and sticking to 2 avacyns to open up the TKS slot.
I don't think you can play 3 mana gideon and disintegration in the same deck. So, I cut black to see what it would look like. 3 mana gideon plays well with chandra and not with 4 mana gideon, so I cut 4 mana gideon. Gideon into Chandra lets you hold off threats with the plus and gain value with chandra's plus. Seems like a great combo. This deck is a gamble on the power of the new gideon and having consistent mana.
You can swap in some ballistas for pia or play around with avacyn / chandra. I don't think this deck looks as good as mardu. You really have to give up a lot for that black splash. Maybe a slightly more aggressive build would be better to take advantage of the mana consistency...
It's pretty lean and mean. Is that good enough? Can it get under the current 25 land mardu midrange builds? I think it needs more answers to HoK maindeck, but I don't see where it can get them. It's also very low on artifacts -- those harnessed lightnings probably need to be scroungers. We should also cut back on needle spires to have a good curve.
The last list has 22 crew "sources," which is at least 4 more than is typical. Those veteran motorists or depala's could easily be different 1 or two drops with 2 power. Yes they are good with the vehicles, but motorist is bad against ballista and 1/1's, while depala can be very clumsy at times. The new 3/2 for RW with battlecry might be better than motorist just because of the extra toughness. Harsh mentor looks particularly potent against the current mardu lists -- swapping this for motorist would replace a bad card vs. ballista with a great one.
Just thought I'd throw out some ideas with the new Gideon. That first and last lists look the best to me. In the last list you're a little short on scrounger having black mana (10 vs. a desired 11 sources), but he's probably fine even as an artifact with 3 power that can get some value in the late game. Overall, I'm still not sure if it's worth cutting disintegration and fatal push, as you lack interaction with the larger creatures in the format like all the vehicles and the GB deck as a whole... but there are certainly other options to explore with Amonkhet.
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
Long time Mardu player here. Trials just doesn't have the clock Ally does. Trials' biggest strength is curving from Kiran which is a solid play against early removal/board wipes. Ally also does the ladder but much better for 1 more mana. Furthermore Trials platinum ability is pretty useless in standard - unless you run Glorious End - unlike Ally whose abilities are all relevant.
Through my testing I've found the gods to be too clunky for us. Rhonas would have been nice when on the field with cultivator/Kiran but green is not the way to go. White God is a nonbo because of Ally. Black god is only good in a aristocrats deck. Red God is probably good in rb madness.
Any thoughts on Avacyn vs Glorybringer? The top list at the Open last weekend run Avacyns with 0 Glorybringers, but there was clearly mixed opinion throughout the top 16.
I feel like Glorybringer is so much more aggressive and fits in a lot more for what the deck is doing, but Avacyn certainly has more play to it.
(60)
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Toolcraft Exemplar
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
2 Walking Ballista
2 Veteran Motorist
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Archangel Avacyn
2 Fatal Push
2 Shock
4 Unlicensed Disintegration
4 Heart of Kiran
Aether Hub
4 Inspiring Vantage
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Spire of Industry
1 Needle Spires
2 Shambling Vent
4 Plains
3 Mountain
Sideboard
(15)
1 Fatal Push
1 Walking Ballista
1 Archangel Avacyn
2 Oath of Chandra
3 Oath of Liliana
2 Release the Gremlins
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Authority of the Consuls
1 Painful Truths
1 Fumigate
Also, shock or push mainboard? I feel like push is a better removal spell but black is harder to come by than red in this deck. Sorry, I'm mainly a modern player trying to stay competitive in standard and the constant deck changes every week confuse how to properly build my deck.
Really think Paul Rietzl's list from GPNJ is the way to go with this archetype. Archangel Avacyn is both phenomenal generally and very potent against 4c Copycat specifically. She dominates combat, does a huge number on the planeswalkers in 4c Copycat (especially as the lists have moved away from Tamiyo, Field Researcher), Copycat has few answers for her, and you never have to let your shields down since she wants to be played in combat or EOT. Avacyn also has tremendous synergy with Ballista, which is where you need to be anyway.
Paul also nailed some of the finer point numbers too - Thalia, Heretic Cathar is the perfect 3-drop for this deck and playing a full three copies instead of the stock two is awesome.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
And when you have more red spells since the decks usually go from 4 mainboard to up to 6-10 post board.
Went 4-0 at FNM again with the same 75. I'm not going to say that the original Motorist list is better, but I cannot bring myself to play Ballista maindeck in a deck trying to crew 3.
Anyway, matchups: 2-0 BU Improvise, 2-0 WG Human Aggro, 2-1 GB Constrictor, 2-0 UR Zombie/Emerge
The GB match was the toughest. Nearly lost the 3rd game, but a timely Fumigate into their overextended board sealed the deal.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
I prefer the Motorist list because it's a bit more aggressive and proactive. The scry 2 and extra pilots are hard to cut for me. Also, I like the versatility of Rebuke against the random combos that don't often show up in the larger events.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
2-0: Padeem list? No idea what this homebrew was trying to do, but I cruised over him. B/G Artifacts?
2-1: 4 color saheeli, He kept a greedy hand game one and was his downfall. Game 2 mull to six really didn't pull anything to help pressure or removal. Game 3 hit all the removal and all the sideboard cards I needed to stop the combo.
2-0: Abzan Clues: Game 1 he should have won but over reached and I killed him, I was at 4 life. Game 2: I side boarded poorly because game 1 I didn't really see any creatures in his deck, but they all game about out in game 2. Luckily I had a t4 Nahiri/Heart and good removal, finally got to play Nahiri and Release the Gremlins these cards were rotting in my SB as no matchups made sense. Made 2 Gremlins and Nahiri let me filter too a Gideon and close the game out.
Ballista Is a great value card for me and I don't for see pulling him out anytime soon. I think I'm going to side in shocks for the future as this was the first time I saw 4c Saheeli at the LGS.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/592351#online
I'm planning on playing Mardu at a PPTQ, and I've seen a lot of good results with a similar sideboard plan. When do Nahiri, Ob, and Sorin come in? Is the idea just to transform and blank any removal that the opponent brings in? Looking for your thoughts on the sideboard in general, as well as thoughts on what comes in for the big matchups: 4C Saheeli, BG, Temur...
UW Flash
BW Angels
Unmaking is a boss against temur/saheeli, sometimes they'll go shields down at a end of a turn thinking you have a unlicensed and you can exile their tower. No need to explain why it's good against saheeli, lost legacy I've seen in the sideboard and have played it, works really well against 4c, and can take away glimar from temur before they can use one.
BG Counters seems favored for us, watch out for a lost legacy blow out though. Guy took both all my Gideon's and Avaycn's from my deck, but luckily I found a chandra to close the game out.(this deck just isn't fair haha)
Not really a fan as Hellion doesn't have trample and could just be a 1/1, I rather play the White god in that slot.
t1. Tool. 2. Heart. t3. Gideon t4. Truth
Here's hoping the Black god is favorable for us!
It'd like to thank everyone for this soul crushing deck, I'm 9-2 at taking first with it, and 10-1 if you want to count second place at a PPTQ.
It's been a fun ride!
Gideon of the Trials is interesting for things like Dynavolt Tower, but honestly I think By Force is just a better, smarter new way to deal with stuff like that. Plus we still retain Anguished Unmaking at instant speed.
I do think that 3 Archangel Avacyn and 25 Land is the way to go moving forward, however. It's just been proven to be effective.
Edit - My current list that I've been using at FNM:
4 Heart of Kiran
Planewalkers - 4
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Creatures - 20
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Archangel Avacyn
3 Walking Ballista
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Toolcraft Exemplar
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
Instants - 7
3 Fatal Push
4 Unlicensed Disintegration
3 Aether Hub
4 Spire of Industry
4 Inspiring Vantage
4 Concealed Courtyar
4 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Needle Spires
2 Shambling Vent
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Painful Truths
2 Fumigate
2 Release the Gremlins (To be replaced with By Force come Amonkhet)
2 Stasis Snare
2 Shock
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Fatal Push
4x Mountain
4x Needle Spires
7x Plains
2x Spire of Industry
2x Aether Hub
4x Toolcraft Exemplar
3x Shock
4x Veteran Motorist
4x Harnessed Lightning
4x Heart of Kiran
2x Pia Nalaar
1x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2x Aethersphere Harvester
4x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1x Archangel Avacyn
You can swap in some ballistas for pia or play around with avacyn / chandra. I don't think this deck looks as good as mardu. You really have to give up a lot for that black splash. Maybe a slightly more aggressive build would be better to take advantage of the mana consistency...
5x Mountain
4x Needle Spires
7x Plains
1x Spire of Industry
1x Aether Hub
4x Toolcraft Exemplar
4x Inventor's Apprentice
4x Shock
4x Veteran Motorist
4x Harnessed Lightning
4x Heart of Kiran
2x Pia Nalaar
2x Depala, Pilot Exemplar
2x Aethersphere Harvester
It's pretty lean and mean. Is that good enough? Can it get under the current 25 land mardu midrange builds? I think it needs more answers to HoK maindeck, but I don't see where it can get them. It's also very low on artifacts -- those harnessed lightnings probably need to be scroungers. We should also cut back on needle spires to have a good curve.
4x Mountain
2x Needle Spires
4x Plains
4x Concealed Courtyard
4x Spire of Industry
4x Toolcraft Exemplar
4x Inventor's Apprentice
4x Shock
4x Veteran Motorist
4x Scrapheap Scrounger
4x Heart of Kiran
2x Pia Nalaar
2x Depala, Pilot Exemplar
2x Cultivator's Caravan
The last list has 22 crew "sources," which is at least 4 more than is typical. Those veteran motorists or depala's could easily be different 1 or two drops with 2 power. Yes they are good with the vehicles, but motorist is bad against ballista and 1/1's, while depala can be very clumsy at times. The new 3/2 for RW with battlecry might be better than motorist just because of the extra toughness. Harsh mentor looks particularly potent against the current mardu lists -- swapping this for motorist would replace a bad card vs. ballista with a great one.
4x Mountain
2x Needle Spires
4x Plains
4x Concealed Courtyard
4x Spire of Industry
4x Toolcraft Exemplar
4x Inventor's Apprentice
4x Shock
4x Harsh mentor
2x Honored Crop-Captain
4x Scrapheap Scrounger
4x Heart of Kiran
2x Pia Nalaar
2x Cultivator's Caravan
Just thought I'd throw out some ideas with the new Gideon. That first and last lists look the best to me. In the last list you're a little short on scrounger having black mana (10 vs. a desired 11 sources), but he's probably fine even as an artifact with 3 power that can get some value in the late game. Overall, I'm still not sure if it's worth cutting disintegration and fatal push, as you lack interaction with the larger creatures in the format like all the vehicles and the GB deck as a whole... but there are certainly other options to explore with Amonkhet.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
Through my testing I've found the gods to be too clunky for us. Rhonas would have been nice when on the field with cultivator/Kiran but green is not the way to go. White God is a nonbo because of Ally. Black god is only good in a aristocrats deck. Red God is probably good in rb madness.
I think the only cards that will likely see play in Mardu ballista/aggro is Glorybringer, Lay Bare the Heart, Cut // Ribbons, Never // Return, By Force, Magma Spray, and Honored Crop-Captain. I know I've been harsh on Trials but I can't help but feel a 1-of may be used just for the curve and synergy with Kiran.
GBRJund Elves
GWDevoted Elves
WDeath & Taxes
GWUBRHumans
EDH:
GTitania, Protector of Argoth
I feel like Glorybringer is so much more aggressive and fits in a lot more for what the deck is doing, but Avacyn certainly has more play to it.
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