Well... I was sorta thinking of the meta of current type 2 decks and how it's basically a very large goofy split of control and agro, with dragonstorm being referred to as a 'combo' deck, which I find a bit of an exaggeration... anyway, a lot of people are saying that combo decks aren't quite viable because we're getting the shaft on both sides of the rock/paper/scissors of magic... control is supposed to beat combo, and control has been sprouting up in every color (I've been considering making a red Pyrohemia control deck... yes, red control), and agro has been getting such strength along the mana curve that there simply aren't enough combos or strong enough ones to take the advantage over it. Because of that, I think there are a lot of options for combo decks now to absolutely hose agro without destroying their own combo, as well as forgotten cards that completely neuter control strategies that are maindeckable (at least for this deck).
Okay, now that my motivation is out there, Coalition Victory. The obvious combo being Transguild Courier and 3 ravnica duals being able to fulfill the CV 'if' clause. There are a lot of holes in this strategy that need to get filled, but I'll deal with those later. First, the decklist I've been tinkering with:
Okay, first I'll just explain the manabase because it appears to just be a gigantic cluster****. The singlets of each basic work well with Terramorphic Expanse, which serves 2 purposes. First, it is great mana fixing. In all my experience with it, people just seem to not see it... not sure why, but it's well worth it, especially in a toolbox like this. Another strength it has is that, similar to the saclands, it is free deckthinning. First turn terramorphic + sac takes 2 lands out of your deck in a deck that can get its own lands and doesn't necessarily need to draw into them. Then, singlet rav duals... this, to most people, looks like even more bizarre of a move when, in truth, it's a pretty solid decision. First, more than 1 of any dual in this deck is a bit counterproductive. 4 of each green dual serves the purpose of adding green sources, but the singlets of the non-green duals mean that with any dual, a terramorphic expanse, and a Farseek (or, depending on the first dual, a Mwonvuli Acid-Moss or Yavimaya Dryad), you can establish a pseudo-dominion. Obiously you can't generate WUBRG with those 3 lands, but you can generate any color of mana, and you can satisfy half of the win clause on Coalition Victory.
Other than the manabase, this deck as a whole isn't what needs explaining, but rather my single card choices. Rather than go into matchups because I still need to update MWS and test this deck more, I'm just going to justify card choices, and save the second post for testing, and a possible sideboard.
Mwonvuli Acid-Moss - I'm sure you all had to click the card link to see what the hell this card was. If you didn't, then you saw what I saw when this card first came across my path - a green Annex. But really, it's better than annex. Not only do you get to choose what land you get, but an opponent's Disenchant won't stop you from doing so. This card is a double-hit on tempo, both grabbing a land (and helping you establish dominion, if necessary) AND taking away one of your opponent's lands. For that reason, I really love this card, especially in this deck.
Farseek - This one isn't that hard to figure out... it can grab any dual from the deck. If you need to establish dominion or grab a specific dual to play a spell, this is the best card available.
Yavimaya Dryad (and not Wood Elves) - When I originally started this deck, I had 4 dryads and 4 wood elves and just a TON of green shared-color ravnica duals. I didn't like it because it seemed to restrict the deck to more green that it is now, and because it added about $200 to the deck's pricetag. In all honesty, I think that the dryad is all but strictly better than wood elves, and in this deck it simply is strictly better. If you can produce G but not GG with this deck, you're already really screwed.
Bound // Determined - Another card I'm sure you needed to click to remember what it was. The key to this card being in the deck is that both halves are very useful. Sacrifice a Transguild Courier to a B//D can get you back the same courier you sacrificed, a coalition victory or two, and a few other cards that you want. Most decks will either SB out or not SB in Tormod's Crypt against this deck, so it's a very good selection. Also, the Determined half is unbelievably useful against control decks. Unless they're holding 2 hard counters AND enough mana to cast both, this will make coalition victory nigh uncounterable.
Supply // Demand(why only 2???) - In truth, this deck can thin itself quite a bit, such that you'll only need S//D if you simply cannot get a piece because they're all hidden on the bottom of your deck. It also serves a nice purpose of adding a 2nd win condition (okay, I'll cast supply for 13 saprolings), and a tutor that many people will overlook (demand, search out bound//determined and get S//D back, or putrefy, or mortify) that they'd pay more attention to if you worked to cast S//D on turn 2 off of a Birds of Paradise.
Scion of the Ur-Dragon/Nicol Bolas - Originally, I had Research // Development in case they rfg'ed part of the combo... but in truth I just like this method better. Now it's impossible for a single Extirpate to kill or severely wound the deck. Extirpate Transguild Courier? Fine with me, get scion and cast CV. Extirpate Scion? Well, there's only 1 copy... Extirpate CV? Okay, pay 2, make scion into a nicol bolas... In general I just prefer how much resiliency and option that these 2 cards bring.
Sudden Death - This card, to be honest, is just to neuter Dralnu or Teferi. Dralnu Du Louvre is getting so popular that I guarantee 2 more Sudden Deaths will be in the sideboard, and blue mages can get cocky and overextend because they think a resolved Teferi or Dralnu is an auto-win... which means that a Sudden Death can be absolutely backbreaking to their deck.
Anyway, hope you like the idea and I'm looking forward to the feedback!
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What do you do when your Coalition Victory gets countered? Wait for the next one while your opponent beats on you with whatever he has? Have you playtested the deck at all?
What do you do when your Coalition Victory gets countered? Wait for the next one while your opponent beats on you with whatever he has? Have you playtested the deck at all?
Against all the magical decks that hold a large counter package AND a large supply of creatures, as well as hold some sort of arbitrarily large mana supply?
This deck has 8 removal spells maindecked (2 of which can't be responded to), and a bunch of trash creatures... so it's not going to get trampled over unless the opposing deck is built for aggression... in that case, they won't have the counterspell package that can stop a recurred CV, or a Determined + CV.
And for the decks that DO have the counterspell package... this is where the passive aspect of a large manabase and passive creatures (like Yavimaya Dryad for the land, or Transguild Courier for the fact that it's a 5 color creature) can actually kill the opposing control deck before even resolving a CV.
Trust me, I've considered this... and it's why I included the cards that I did. Perhaps if you read the posts about the deck and card selection used you'd know that... unfortunately nobody's perfect.
@Pharmalade: I think Grand Arbiter Augustin IV and Stormscape Familiar would be GREAT cards for a blue version of this deck... however it's just not the path I'd like to take this deck in.
To be fair though... them with a good amount of bounce could make for a very powerful synergy... it may be a good direction to explore. I'll think about it and get back to you.
How fast is this deck's average goldfish? Is it faster than aggro? More consistent than aggro? If not, why play this deck? Your 8 removal spells aren't going to be much protection, especially considering that they all cost 3 mana. Have you played against boros or MGA?
I'm also curious about a few of your comments:
dragonstorm being referred to as a 'combo' deck, which I find a bit of an exaggeration.
How is calling dragonstorm a combo deck an exaggeration?
Also, the Determined half is unbelievably useful against control decks. Unless they're holding 2 hard counters AND enough mana to cast both,
Well, by the time you have 10 mana, even with acceleration, this is not unlikely at all.
blue mages can get cocky and overextend
Couple questions about this one. Is relying on an opponent's attitude a good measure of a card's worth? And how is a blue mage going to overextend with the some 5 creatures in their deck? And what would be wrong with them "overextending" when you run 0 wrath effects?
How is calling dragonstorm a combo deck an exaggeration?
What he means is that there's not much of a combo, because the win itself is just Dragonstorm, and the other "combo pieces" are just mana generation. It's still clearly a combo deck though, based on the way it plays.
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I'd think that Blue would be a stronger way to go with this deck overall. You get Govern the Guildless and Dreamscape Artist in addition to the Courier and any other landsearch you care to run. Also, blue gives you some control elements, like Repeal, Pongify, Ovinize, Remand, and Mana leak, all of which are easily splashable.
What he means is that there's not much of a combo, because the win itself is just Dragonstorm, and the other "combo pieces" are just mana generation. It's still clearly a combo deck though, based on the way it plays.
So tendrils decks aren't combo decks? After all, the win itself is just tendrils and the other "combo pieces" are just mana generation.
But anyways, that doesn't have much to do with the main thread topic. The more pertinent questions are the others that I asked.
How fast is this deck's average goldfish? Is it faster than aggro? More consistent than aggro? If not, why play this deck? Your 8 removal spells aren't going to be much protection, especially considering that they all cost 3 mana. Have you played against boros or MGA?
I'm also curious about a few of your comments:
How is calling dragonstorm a combo deck an exaggeration?
Well, by the time you have 10 mana, even with acceleration, this is not unlikely at all.
Couple questions about this one. Is relying on an opponent's attitude a good measure of a card's worth? And how is a blue mage going to overextend with the some 5 creatures in their deck? And what would be wrong with them "overextending" when you run 0 wrath effects?
1. Dragonstorm is a very powerful card. Realistically, any dragons in your deck and d-storm becomes an 'i win' card. However, many dragonstorm decks rely on burn and lockdowns and then they 'go off' without impunity. It just doesnt feel so much like a combo to me. Just a personal thought.
2. 10 mana is regularly achievable by turn 6-7, in which case you are correct, a control deck could easily be sitting on 5-6 lands. However, the entire time you've been casting spells that give you tempo advantages, and they've probably just been sitting back hoping they can eventually take advantage. In this time, that 2/1 you dropped on turn 2-3 or the 3/3 you resolved on turn 4-5... well, they've been beating on the opponent... or they've been countered. If they've been beating... you really aren't going to need CV... just the threat of it that forces the control deck to sit back and hold every single manasource it has open in order to stop something like Determined + CV. If they've countered everything they can, not even the best control decks can hold THAT good of a counter package, so you recoup and win a few turns later after you can use a Bound to get your entire combo back in hand, resolve it, and win.
3. No, I'm not saying that any card's worth is only coming from playing against a bad opponent. However, if you're playing dralnu du louvre, and all you see your opponent playing is stuff like Yavimaya Dryad or Mortify leading up to a Coalition Victory, I know I'm not going to see much of a reason to hold teferi back (and let the opposing deck build up its manabase. I'll just get dralnu and teferi online asap and then use the flashback counterspell package to gain my lock. Then, when you use something like Sudden Death, they've lost a big piece of their lock, and if they can't recoup they've killed themselves in a situation where they weren't really behind.
As for goldfishing, it's easy to end up resolving a CV with either scion or transguild courier out on turn 7. With a little luck, you can do it on turn 5. I don't know if it's possible to win on turn 4, but it would probably only be possible under some god-draw situation. Boros isn't that bad because they have to use a lot of burn on things like Birds of Paradise or Yavimaya Dryad, but my suspicion is that an anti-aggro package in the SB will turn this into the favored deck. MGA is a bad matchup. That I know. Silhana Ledgewalker + Moldervine Cloak absolutely destroy this deck, but again, this is where something like an 8-wrath strategy out of the sideboard will tip the scales, although not nearly as much in this case.
I'm not trying to claim this deck will blow every other deck that ever has been played in T2 out of the water... my guess is that it'll be t1.5 at the very best... but even then it doesn't take a whole lot of tech to disrupt. I'm mostly just investigating whether or not this could be a viable option to play tournament-wise. I honestly think it could be because it's so underused that it's unexpected.
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Yeah... I'm starting to think that an azorius based deck with counter backup and such would be a better choice... changing the shockland base that I have (and the extra forests) to a farseek-powered idea. Oh well...
If anyone has any relevations to improve the deck then feel free to post, but I honestly dont see ways to improve the deck without greatly changing its focus.
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Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?
Quote from Bob Ross »
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Quote from Darth Helmet »
So, Lonestar... now you now that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.
Quote from Master Shake »
Well you may as well just paint yourself yellow, run around yelling, and call yourself Banana Man, because that's what you're doing.
Quote from George Carlin »
It's a comedian's duty to find out exactly where people draw the line, and then cross it deliberately,
1. Dragonstorm is a very powerful card. Realistically, any dragons in your deck and d-storm becomes an 'i win' card. However, many dragonstorm decks rely on burn and lockdowns and then they 'go off' without impunity. It just doesnt feel so much like a combo to me. Just a personal thought.
Dragonstorm doesn't use burn really, by the way, and the only "lockdown" card is gigadrowse, which is just a countermeasure for hate. What you are referring to is just how dragonstorm has to alter it's playstyle when playing against specific decks. That doesn't change the fact this is a combo deck. But whatever.
2. 10 mana is regularly achievable by turn 6-7, in which case you are correct, a control deck could easily be sitting on 5-6 lands. However, the entire time you've been casting spells that give you tempo advantages, and they've probably just been sitting back hoping they can eventually take advantage. In this time, that 2/1 you dropped on turn 2-3 or the 3/3 you resolved on turn 4-5... well, they've been beating on the opponent... or they've been countered. If they've been beating... you really aren't going to need CV... just the threat of it that forces the control deck to sit back and hold every single manasource it has open in order to stop something like Determined + CV. If they've countered everything they can, not even the best control decks can hold THAT good of a counter package, so you recoup and win a few turns later after you can use a Bound to get your entire combo back in hand, resolve it, and win.
Most U control decks run desert, so your yavimaya dryads likely won't get in more than a few damage. Using bound to get your combo back is unreliable, seeing as how you needed to resolve a courier, and then the bound itself. Being 5 mana doesn't help its cause either.
3. No, I'm not saying that any card's worth is only coming from playing against a bad opponent. However, if you're playing dralnu du louvre, and all you see your opponent playing is stuff like Yavimaya Dryad or Mortify leading up to a Coalition Victory, I know I'm not going to see much of a reason to hold teferi back (and let the opposing deck build up its manabase. I'll just get dralnu and teferi online asap and then use the flashback counterspell package to gain my lock. Then, when you use something like Sudden Death, they've lost a big piece of their lock, and if they can't recoup they've killed themselves in a situation where they weren't really behind.
Your reasoning amounts to very little. Dralnu wants to play teferi regardless of whether you have a sudden death or not. They haven't "killed themselves". If they were to hold teferi back, they would gain nothing. There's no doubt that sudden death is a setback to dralnu, but it doesn't hurt their gameplan against you very much. Their plan vs you is just to accumulate cards and mana and then just counter your few individual important spells and then win with a skelvamp or something.
As for goldfishing, it's easy to end up resolving a CV with either scion or transguild courier out on turn 7. With a little luck, you can do it on turn 5. I don't know if it's possible to win on turn 4, but it would probably only be possible under some god-draw situation. Boros isn't that bad because they have to use a lot of burn on things like Birds of Paradise or Yavimaya Dryad, but my suspicion is that an anti-aggro package in the SB will turn this into the favored deck. MGA is a bad matchup. That I know. Silhana Ledgewalker + Moldervine Cloak absolutely destroy this deck, but again, this is where something like an 8-wrath strategy out of the sideboard will tip the scales, although not nearly as much in this case.
So would you say your average goldfish is maybe turn 6? If so, what makes this deck a better choice to play then say boros or MGA or dragonstorm or any other deck that can goldfish faster and more consistently than you? Is your deck somehow more disruptive or resiliant than those decks? If not, shouldn't this be a consideration for taking steps to improve those aspects?
I'm not trying to claim this deck will blow every other deck that ever has been played in T2 out of the water... my guess is that it'll be t1.5 at the very best... but even then it doesn't take a whole lot of tech to disrupt. I'm mostly just investigating whether or not this could be a viable option to play tournament-wise. I honestly think it could be because it's so underused that it's unexpected.
I understand where you are coming from, and that is why I have to ask these questions. If you aren't considering your gameplans vs the top tier decks, or advantages that playing your deck has over playing a different one, then your deck can't become viable. For a combo deck to work, it has to do some combination of the following things:
A. Be fast
B. Be consistent
C. Be resiliant
D. Be disruptive
EDIT:
You might have seen that if you had bothered to get over your tizzy of flaming long enough to read the posts you were attacking.?
Excuse me? I don't believe I was flaming anyone. I read what you said, I was merely saying that the reasoning was flawed.
Sigh... this is why I've stopped posting my deck ideas in this forum.
I DID consider the deck versus top tier decks. This is why I chose to use Yavimaya Dryad and Mwonvuli Acid-Moss rather than something like Hunting Wilds that is more land-per-mana efficient, because having a trash creature or forcing a land setback can be a BIG deal, especially for decks that run rav bouncelands or creatures that would otherwise die to a 'vanilla' 2/1. And just because I don't list a deck name doesn't mean that I'm not considering the matchup. Having a trash creature is good agaisnt ANY agro based deck... whether it forces them to use a growth spell, removal, or lose a creature to a block doesn't matter because that's good against ANY deck. Just because I didn't say 'zoo' or 'boros agro' doesn't mean that I'm not considering it. On top of that, I specifically talked about using Sudden Death because it is the 100% best way to deal with the unbelievably popular Dralnu du Louvre... so either way, your baseless needle is irrelevant.
Now, I have yet to see a combo deck that consistently goes off on turn 5 or earlier. Dragonstorm doesn't... no matter what you think at the very best it can go off blindly defenseless on turn 4, but they have to draw into a lot of what they need. That being said, I think this deck is FAR more resilient because there are a lot of spells that just absolutely murder dragonstorm, while you can't say the same against this deck because it has a lot of options.
As for my sudden death reasoning "amount[ing] to very little"... there's a deck that's insanely popular. There's a card that can uncontestedly shut down that deck (with 1 exception - Willbender, which isn't considered that often and is completely predictable). So I add 2 and 2 together, put the card that at the very least sets the previously mentioned deck back a turn and forces them to lose an important tutor.... and you claim my reasoning is flawed? I don't know about you but that seems like pretty perfect reasoning to me.
You're also implying that I'm a pretty idiotic player in that I'd attack into a Desert with an x/1... WHILE PLAYING A DECK WITH LAND DESTRUCTION??? Good job reading my deck there.
And last, but far from least... you claim that a combo deck needs to have some combination of speed, resiliency, disruption, and consistency. The decklist that I posted above doesn't have speed (although you're probably just thinking with the mindset of 'omglolz dstorm 1st turn win' when most combo decks, especially in this format, don't go off until about the same average turn as mine does), however it has a good deal of resiliency in that it doesn't need to rely on Coalition Victory to win, AND has ways to retrieve lost cards, AND plays quite a bit of disruption where most combo decks don't run much removal, AND packs a lot of deck thinning, a tutor that can get any combo piece, and a manabase package that is extremely consistent.
So I have A's on 3/4 and a C on the 4th. By my calculations that's still an A-.
As for whether or not you were simply flaming... I don't think that's quite right. You apparently have some opinion and while you do back it up, you do so absolutely blind to everything that I've written.
That's not flaming, that's trolling.
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Quote from Monty Python and the Holy Grail »
Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?
Quote from Bob Ross »
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Quote from Darth Helmet »
So, Lonestar... now you now that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.
Quote from Master Shake »
Well you may as well just paint yourself yellow, run around yelling, and call yourself Banana Man, because that's what you're doing.
Quote from George Carlin »
It's a comedian's duty to find out exactly where people draw the line, and then cross it deliberately,
ive been running the deck pretty favorably at FNM with a GW base. it gives me access to carven carytid and wall of shards for defense v. aggro, and of course farseek, search for tomorrow, wood elves, and rampant growth. i playlost auramancers to get out coalition victory and sideboard leyline of lifeforce to make i can play both the auramancers and the courier without fear of counters. the real defining element in the deck is congregation at dawn allowing me to search for auramancers, courier, and a wall. with the mana accel, and the auramancers i can usually pull off a win around turn 6-7.
A few thoughts. First off, Dark_drac0, Lost Auramancers doesn't get coalition victory, since Auramancers gets an ENCHANTMENT, and CV is a SORCERY. Sorry man.
Second, I've been testing this deck, and I believe it has some FNM promise, and maybe (given some solid luck) win a bigger tourney (Regionals maybe). Just some thoughts though. If you don't believe me, play it for 10-20 games, and see what you think.
A: Be Fast:
With your deck your looking at turn 4 w/ perfect hand, and no enemy disruption including removal. Average combo should be turn 6 or 7 against a deck with no disruption.
This is too slow for the current format. Your looking at D-storm winning by turn 7 nearly every time it wins. D-storm has a far higher chance to go off turn 4-5, much less hate, and much more effecient anti-hate.
B: Be Consistant:
Fairly good consistancy. Redundancy, and a tutor. It should get it's pieces most of the time.
Again, comparing to the priemer combo deck, it comes up a bit short. D-storm has exceptionally good digging from Sleight of Hand and Telling Time. Doesn't work every time, but has more than getting 7/5 or 6/6 (Creature/Victory).
C: Be Resiliant:
It has a back-up plan, which saves it some, but Transguild Courier is too easy to kill/counter and Coalition Victory is easy to counter.
It doesn't have the redundancy that most winning decks have. Those that don't have some way to make their win conditions uncounterable.
D: Be Disruptive:
Acid Moss is quite nice, but only helps against combo or control. Control can counter, Combo can often just ignore the loss of 1 land. 8 single target removal spells won't stop aggro. That's 1 or 2 drawn in an average game.
Total:
Control has a great game against you, with only a handful of spells they care about.
Aggro has a great game against you, with too many creatures for you to stop with your few removal spells, or too much burn for you to combo off first.
Combo has a great game against you, with the good combo decks being faster and more or less immune to your disruption. Only real hope is a 3rd or 4th turn scion into Nicol.
I have read all your points, and am not blind to them. The main problem with the deck is that all the redundancy is in getting more lands, with too much going on elsewhere and none of it quite as effective as we would like.
Lets look at some things that could help a bit: Damnation/***
Yes, it can kill your trash creatures. It puts a strain on your mana base. But it works against aggro. A lot. Wall of Roots
Mana accelerant against control, defense against aggro. In color. Urza's Factory
Yet another card that messes with the manabase, but it's all I can see against hardcore counter control.
I'm really not sure what you can do to stop combo, save add another Scion, but going with the blue version instead would help.
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Okay, now that my motivation is out there, Coalition Victory. The obvious combo being Transguild Courier and 3 ravnica duals being able to fulfill the CV 'if' clause. There are a lot of holes in this strategy that need to get filled, but I'll deal with those later. First, the decklist I've been tinkering with:
4x Terramorphic Expanse
1x Temple Garden
1x Breeding Pool
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Grounds
1x Godless Shrine
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Steam Vents
1x Watery Grave
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Plains
6x Forest
4x Coalition Victory
4x Transguild Courier
Support (19):
4x Farseek
4x Yavimaya Dryad
3x Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Bound // Determined
2x Supply // Demand
Control (8):
4x Putrefy
2x Mortify
2x Sudden Death
1x Scion of the Ur-Dragon
1x Nicol Bolas
Okay, first I'll just explain the manabase because it appears to just be a gigantic cluster****. The singlets of each basic work well with Terramorphic Expanse, which serves 2 purposes. First, it is great mana fixing. In all my experience with it, people just seem to not see it... not sure why, but it's well worth it, especially in a toolbox like this. Another strength it has is that, similar to the saclands, it is free deckthinning. First turn terramorphic + sac takes 2 lands out of your deck in a deck that can get its own lands and doesn't necessarily need to draw into them. Then, singlet rav duals... this, to most people, looks like even more bizarre of a move when, in truth, it's a pretty solid decision. First, more than 1 of any dual in this deck is a bit counterproductive. 4 of each green dual serves the purpose of adding green sources, but the singlets of the non-green duals mean that with any dual, a terramorphic expanse, and a Farseek (or, depending on the first dual, a Mwonvuli Acid-Moss or Yavimaya Dryad), you can establish a pseudo-dominion. Obiously you can't generate WUBRG with those 3 lands, but you can generate any color of mana, and you can satisfy half of the win clause on Coalition Victory.
Other than the manabase, this deck as a whole isn't what needs explaining, but rather my single card choices. Rather than go into matchups because I still need to update MWS and test this deck more, I'm just going to justify card choices, and save the second post for testing, and a possible sideboard.
Mwonvuli Acid-Moss - I'm sure you all had to click the card link to see what the hell this card was. If you didn't, then you saw what I saw when this card first came across my path - a green Annex. But really, it's better than annex. Not only do you get to choose what land you get, but an opponent's Disenchant won't stop you from doing so. This card is a double-hit on tempo, both grabbing a land (and helping you establish dominion, if necessary) AND taking away one of your opponent's lands. For that reason, I really love this card, especially in this deck.
Farseek - This one isn't that hard to figure out... it can grab any dual from the deck. If you need to establish dominion or grab a specific dual to play a spell, this is the best card available.
Yavimaya Dryad (and not Wood Elves) - When I originally started this deck, I had 4 dryads and 4 wood elves and just a TON of green shared-color ravnica duals. I didn't like it because it seemed to restrict the deck to more green that it is now, and because it added about $200 to the deck's pricetag. In all honesty, I think that the dryad is all but strictly better than wood elves, and in this deck it simply is strictly better. If you can produce G but not GG with this deck, you're already really screwed.
Bound // Determined - Another card I'm sure you needed to click to remember what it was. The key to this card being in the deck is that both halves are very useful. Sacrifice a Transguild Courier to a B//D can get you back the same courier you sacrificed, a coalition victory or two, and a few other cards that you want. Most decks will either SB out or not SB in Tormod's Crypt against this deck, so it's a very good selection. Also, the Determined half is unbelievably useful against control decks. Unless they're holding 2 hard counters AND enough mana to cast both, this will make coalition victory nigh uncounterable.
Supply // Demand(why only 2???) - In truth, this deck can thin itself quite a bit, such that you'll only need S//D if you simply cannot get a piece because they're all hidden on the bottom of your deck. It also serves a nice purpose of adding a 2nd win condition (okay, I'll cast supply for 13 saprolings), and a tutor that many people will overlook (demand, search out bound//determined and get S//D back, or putrefy, or mortify) that they'd pay more attention to if you worked to cast S//D on turn 2 off of a Birds of Paradise.
Scion of the Ur-Dragon/Nicol Bolas - Originally, I had Research // Development in case they rfg'ed part of the combo... but in truth I just like this method better. Now it's impossible for a single Extirpate to kill or severely wound the deck. Extirpate Transguild Courier? Fine with me, get scion and cast CV. Extirpate Scion? Well, there's only 1 copy... Extirpate CV? Okay, pay 2, make scion into a nicol bolas... In general I just prefer how much resiliency and option that these 2 cards bring.
Sudden Death - This card, to be honest, is just to neuter Dralnu or Teferi. Dralnu Du Louvre is getting so popular that I guarantee 2 more Sudden Deaths will be in the sideboard, and blue mages can get cocky and overextend because they think a resolved Teferi or Dralnu is an auto-win... which means that a Sudden Death can be absolutely backbreaking to their deck.
Anyway, hope you like the idea and I'm looking forward to the feedback!
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV = Transguild costs 2 mana to play. Opponents spells cost 1 more. Benefit both ways.
Stormscape Familiar = Transguild costs 1 less to play. GAAIV costs three to play.
I don't know if you're interested in either of those as your deck is very green heavy. I think they'd make the ending Victory easier to play.
-Pharmalade.
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Against all the magical decks that hold a large counter package AND a large supply of creatures, as well as hold some sort of arbitrarily large mana supply?
This deck has 8 removal spells maindecked (2 of which can't be responded to), and a bunch of trash creatures... so it's not going to get trampled over unless the opposing deck is built for aggression... in that case, they won't have the counterspell package that can stop a recurred CV, or a Determined + CV.
And for the decks that DO have the counterspell package... this is where the passive aspect of a large manabase and passive creatures (like Yavimaya Dryad for the land, or Transguild Courier for the fact that it's a 5 color creature) can actually kill the opposing control deck before even resolving a CV.
Trust me, I've considered this... and it's why I included the cards that I did. Perhaps if you read the posts about the deck and card selection used you'd know that... unfortunately nobody's perfect.
@Pharmalade: I think Grand Arbiter Augustin IV and Stormscape Familiar would be GREAT cards for a blue version of this deck... however it's just not the path I'd like to take this deck in.
To be fair though... them with a good amount of bounce could make for a very powerful synergy... it may be a good direction to explore. I'll think about it and get back to you.
I'm also curious about a few of your comments:
How is calling dragonstorm a combo deck an exaggeration?
Well, by the time you have 10 mana, even with acceleration, this is not unlikely at all.
Couple questions about this one. Is relying on an opponent's attitude a good measure of a card's worth? And how is a blue mage going to overextend with the some 5 creatures in their deck? And what would be wrong with them "overextending" when you run 0 wrath effects?
What he means is that there's not much of a combo, because the win itself is just Dragonstorm, and the other "combo pieces" are just mana generation. It's still clearly a combo deck though, based on the way it plays.
So tendrils decks aren't combo decks? After all, the win itself is just tendrils and the other "combo pieces" are just mana generation.
But anyways, that doesn't have much to do with the main thread topic. The more pertinent questions are the others that I asked.
1. Dragonstorm is a very powerful card. Realistically, any dragons in your deck and d-storm becomes an 'i win' card. However, many dragonstorm decks rely on burn and lockdowns and then they 'go off' without impunity. It just doesnt feel so much like a combo to me. Just a personal thought.
2. 10 mana is regularly achievable by turn 6-7, in which case you are correct, a control deck could easily be sitting on 5-6 lands. However, the entire time you've been casting spells that give you tempo advantages, and they've probably just been sitting back hoping they can eventually take advantage. In this time, that 2/1 you dropped on turn 2-3 or the 3/3 you resolved on turn 4-5... well, they've been beating on the opponent... or they've been countered. If they've been beating... you really aren't going to need CV... just the threat of it that forces the control deck to sit back and hold every single manasource it has open in order to stop something like Determined + CV. If they've countered everything they can, not even the best control decks can hold THAT good of a counter package, so you recoup and win a few turns later after you can use a Bound to get your entire combo back in hand, resolve it, and win.
3. No, I'm not saying that any card's worth is only coming from playing against a bad opponent. However, if you're playing dralnu du louvre, and all you see your opponent playing is stuff like Yavimaya Dryad or Mortify leading up to a Coalition Victory, I know I'm not going to see much of a reason to hold teferi back (and let the opposing deck build up its manabase. I'll just get dralnu and teferi online asap and then use the flashback counterspell package to gain my lock. Then, when you use something like Sudden Death, they've lost a big piece of their lock, and if they can't recoup they've killed themselves in a situation where they weren't really behind.
As for goldfishing, it's easy to end up resolving a CV with either scion or transguild courier out on turn 7. With a little luck, you can do it on turn 5. I don't know if it's possible to win on turn 4, but it would probably only be possible under some god-draw situation. Boros isn't that bad because they have to use a lot of burn on things like Birds of Paradise or Yavimaya Dryad, but my suspicion is that an anti-aggro package in the SB will turn this into the favored deck. MGA is a bad matchup. That I know. Silhana Ledgewalker + Moldervine Cloak absolutely destroy this deck, but again, this is where something like an 8-wrath strategy out of the sideboard will tip the scales, although not nearly as much in this case.
I'm not trying to claim this deck will blow every other deck that ever has been played in T2 out of the water... my guess is that it'll be t1.5 at the very best... but even then it doesn't take a whole lot of tech to disrupt. I'm mostly just investigating whether or not this could be a viable option to play tournament-wise. I honestly think it could be because it's so underused that it's unexpected.
I built the deck to have a favorable match up against aggro i used cards like Wall of Shards and Condemn. And i also used Stromscape Familiar and Grand Arbiter Augustin IV to crank out a faster CV... I also incorporated Quickchange in case i never saw a courier.
Goodluck with the deck
H/W List http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=112656
If anyone has any relevations to improve the deck then feel free to post, but I honestly dont see ways to improve the deck without greatly changing its focus.
As I actually said, buried deep in the epic post that you responded to:
You might have seen that if you had bothered to get over your tizzy of flaming long enough to read the posts you were attacking.
Dragonstorm doesn't use burn really, by the way, and the only "lockdown" card is gigadrowse, which is just a countermeasure for hate. What you are referring to is just how dragonstorm has to alter it's playstyle when playing against specific decks. That doesn't change the fact this is a combo deck. But whatever.
Most U control decks run desert, so your yavimaya dryads likely won't get in more than a few damage. Using bound to get your combo back is unreliable, seeing as how you needed to resolve a courier, and then the bound itself. Being 5 mana doesn't help its cause either.
Your reasoning amounts to very little. Dralnu wants to play teferi regardless of whether you have a sudden death or not. They haven't "killed themselves". If they were to hold teferi back, they would gain nothing. There's no doubt that sudden death is a setback to dralnu, but it doesn't hurt their gameplan against you very much. Their plan vs you is just to accumulate cards and mana and then just counter your few individual important spells and then win with a skelvamp or something.
So would you say your average goldfish is maybe turn 6? If so, what makes this deck a better choice to play then say boros or MGA or dragonstorm or any other deck that can goldfish faster and more consistently than you? Is your deck somehow more disruptive or resiliant than those decks? If not, shouldn't this be a consideration for taking steps to improve those aspects?
I understand where you are coming from, and that is why I have to ask these questions. If you aren't considering your gameplans vs the top tier decks, or advantages that playing your deck has over playing a different one, then your deck can't become viable. For a combo deck to work, it has to do some combination of the following things:
A. Be fast
B. Be consistent
C. Be resiliant
D. Be disruptive
EDIT:
You might have seen that if you had bothered to get over your tizzy of flaming long enough to read the posts you were attacking.?
Excuse me? I don't believe I was flaming anyone. I read what you said, I was merely saying that the reasoning was flawed.
I DID consider the deck versus top tier decks. This is why I chose to use Yavimaya Dryad and Mwonvuli Acid-Moss rather than something like Hunting Wilds that is more land-per-mana efficient, because having a trash creature or forcing a land setback can be a BIG deal, especially for decks that run rav bouncelands or creatures that would otherwise die to a 'vanilla' 2/1. And just because I don't list a deck name doesn't mean that I'm not considering the matchup. Having a trash creature is good agaisnt ANY agro based deck... whether it forces them to use a growth spell, removal, or lose a creature to a block doesn't matter because that's good against ANY deck. Just because I didn't say 'zoo' or 'boros agro' doesn't mean that I'm not considering it. On top of that, I specifically talked about using Sudden Death because it is the 100% best way to deal with the unbelievably popular Dralnu du Louvre... so either way, your baseless needle is irrelevant.
Now, I have yet to see a combo deck that consistently goes off on turn 5 or earlier. Dragonstorm doesn't... no matter what you think at the very best it can go off blindly defenseless on turn 4, but they have to draw into a lot of what they need. That being said, I think this deck is FAR more resilient because there are a lot of spells that just absolutely murder dragonstorm, while you can't say the same against this deck because it has a lot of options.
As for my sudden death reasoning "amount[ing] to very little"... there's a deck that's insanely popular. There's a card that can uncontestedly shut down that deck (with 1 exception - Willbender, which isn't considered that often and is completely predictable). So I add 2 and 2 together, put the card that at the very least sets the previously mentioned deck back a turn and forces them to lose an important tutor.... and you claim my reasoning is flawed? I don't know about you but that seems like pretty perfect reasoning to me.
You're also implying that I'm a pretty idiotic player in that I'd attack into a Desert with an x/1... WHILE PLAYING A DECK WITH LAND DESTRUCTION??? Good job reading my deck there.
And last, but far from least... you claim that a combo deck needs to have some combination of speed, resiliency, disruption, and consistency. The decklist that I posted above doesn't have speed (although you're probably just thinking with the mindset of 'omglolz dstorm 1st turn win' when most combo decks, especially in this format, don't go off until about the same average turn as mine does), however it has a good deal of resiliency in that it doesn't need to rely on Coalition Victory to win, AND has ways to retrieve lost cards, AND plays quite a bit of disruption where most combo decks don't run much removal, AND packs a lot of deck thinning, a tutor that can get any combo piece, and a manabase package that is extremely consistent.
So I have A's on 3/4 and a C on the 4th. By my calculations that's still an A-.
As for whether or not you were simply flaming... I don't think that's quite right. You apparently have some opinion and while you do back it up, you do so absolutely blind to everything that I've written.
That's not flaming, that's trolling.
Second, I've been testing this deck, and I believe it has some FNM promise, and maybe (given some solid luck) win a bigger tourney (Regionals maybe). Just some thoughts though. If you don't believe me, play it for 10-20 games, and see what you think.
Radha, Heir to Keld, Vorel of the Hull Clade, Kemba, Kha Regent, Vela the Night-Clad, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Barrin, Master Wizard, Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer, Patron of the Orochi, Oloro, Ageless Ascetic, Thraximundar, Roon of the Hidden Realm, Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, Marath, Will of the Wild, Teneb, the Harvester
If you did this, tell me and I'll credit you!
With your deck your looking at turn 4 w/ perfect hand, and no enemy disruption including removal. Average combo should be turn 6 or 7 against a deck with no disruption.
This is too slow for the current format. Your looking at D-storm winning by turn 7 nearly every time it wins. D-storm has a far higher chance to go off turn 4-5, much less hate, and much more effecient anti-hate.
B: Be Consistant:
Fairly good consistancy. Redundancy, and a tutor. It should get it's pieces most of the time.
Again, comparing to the priemer combo deck, it comes up a bit short. D-storm has exceptionally good digging from Sleight of Hand and Telling Time. Doesn't work every time, but has more than getting 7/5 or 6/6 (Creature/Victory).
C: Be Resiliant:
It has a back-up plan, which saves it some, but Transguild Courier is too easy to kill/counter and Coalition Victory is easy to counter.
It doesn't have the redundancy that most winning decks have. Those that don't have some way to make their win conditions uncounterable.
D: Be Disruptive:
Acid Moss is quite nice, but only helps against combo or control. Control can counter, Combo can often just ignore the loss of 1 land. 8 single target removal spells won't stop aggro. That's 1 or 2 drawn in an average game.
Total:
Control has a great game against you, with only a handful of spells they care about.
Aggro has a great game against you, with too many creatures for you to stop with your few removal spells, or too much burn for you to combo off first.
Combo has a great game against you, with the good combo decks being faster and more or less immune to your disruption. Only real hope is a 3rd or 4th turn scion into Nicol.
I have read all your points, and am not blind to them. The main problem with the deck is that all the redundancy is in getting more lands, with too much going on elsewhere and none of it quite as effective as we would like.
Lets look at some things that could help a bit:
Damnation/***
Yes, it can kill your trash creatures. It puts a strain on your mana base. But it works against aggro. A lot.
Wall of Roots
Mana accelerant against control, defense against aggro. In color.
Urza's Factory
Yet another card that messes with the manabase, but it's all I can see against hardcore counter control.
I'm really not sure what you can do to stop combo, save add another Scion, but going with the blue version instead would help.
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