6 damage untill 3rd turn. then 10 dmg from lightning axe ad 2 from stuffy doll's ability.
You hit the Doll with Lightning Axe. Furnace of Rath doubles the damage to the doll, and the doll does two times that to the player. 5x2=10, 10x2=20 So, in actuality, the first 2 turns of burn aren't necessary unless you're going against life gain.
EDIT: Sorry, didn't see that speculator had already posted this. I just skimmed to see if anyone had quoted him with their reply.
None of those big finishers you mentioned ever had to deal with Draining Whelk. The format is going to change, and playing 5+ cc spells is going to be very dangerous.
So how is stuffy doll going to get around draining whelk. Also the other big finishers did have to deal with relivent counterspells such as hinder, rewind, or even mana leak.
So how is stuffy doll going to get around draining whelk. Also the other big finishers did have to deal with relivent counterspells such as hinder, rewind, or even mana leak.
There is a huge difference between having you finisher countered, and having it countered while your opponet drops an even bigger flying finisher at the same time. Its the difference between mana drain and counterspell. Go play some vintage and see how mana drain effects the environment. Whelk will have the same effect, though not as drastic, on standard.
Stuffy Doll is not broken or even all that powerful. However its by no means unplayable.
Any mono red burn style deck built by a competent magic player will at the very least include it in the sideboard, for the simple fact that it gets around both COP:Red and Ivory Mask. Another useful things is the way it turns any damage based board wipe effects(Pyroclasm, Wildfire etc.) into direct damage. It is also pretty good as a blocker against any pure beatdown deck.
It can be killed by Cruel Edict, Hit, Last Gasp, Smallpox, Sudden Death and many other less commonly used cards as well as the already mentioned flanking creatures if it blocks them.
Saying that a card is bad because it can be countered is inane. Almost all the cards in magic can be countered and most of the creatures in magic are much more easy to kill. I'm not saying its great but you cannot call it bad because of things like counters and removal because if you use that as a basis almost every creature in standard is bad and Scragnoth is one of the best because it gets around counters and has protection from blues removal(bounce, stealing and Psionic Blast).
Saying that a card is bad because it can be countered is inane. Almost all the cards in magic can be countered and most of the creatures in magic are much more easy to kill. I'm not saying its great but you cannot call it bad because of things like counters and removal because if you use that as a basis almost every creature in standard is bad and Scragnoth is one of the best because it gets around counters and has protection from blues removal(bounce, stealing and Psionic Blast).
Where did anyone say that Stuffy Doll was bad because it could be countered?
Several people keep saying this, but I don't know who they're talking to because I don't see anyone saying anything remotely like "this card sucks because it can be countered."
I've said it countless times and I"ll say it again until it sticks to everyone's skulls.The argument of "Card X sucks because it can be countered/destroyed" is completely invalid.The same can be said of EVERY MAGIC CARD EVER MADE!It's like saying Psychatog sucks because it can be countered.
The only thing that can hurt it are Last Gasp,DarkBlast and Sudden Death.Since it will never attack it's safe from Condemn and Devouring Light.Pillory of the Sleepless just removes it as a chump blocker and even with faith's fetter you can still throw burn spells at it.Also as a friend noticed,It lets you burn an opponent with circle of protection red
The true strenght of the card is how well it will perform in the deck it's in.
Stuffy Doll will love red decks as it turns damage sweepers(Pyroclasm,Sulfurous Blast) into direct damage spells,while you keep an eternal blocker.It becomes more deadly surrounded by Whiptail Moloch and Firemaw Kavu
Myself I"m thinking of blue/black deck with cards like Douse in Gloom and Ribbon of the Night.
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It is always easy to be tolerant and understanding...Until someone presents an opinion completely opposite to your own.
I've said it countless times and I"ll say it again until it sticks to everyone's skulls.The argument of "Card X sucks because it can be countered/destroyed" is completely invalid.
Again, who is making this argument?
I completely agree with you but I don't know who you're responding to. No one here is saying that the card is bad because it can be countered.
There was a post earlier that implied its counterability was a drawback, which of course is ridiculous as R_E and others have now pointed out.
To be fair, though, I think what the poster was implying was simply that at 5 mana it gives a blue player time to be sitting on a counterspell, and (I'm stretching my inference here) he thinks the t2 will not be slow enough to enable the key card of a deck to cost 5.
I'm inclined to think, to the contrary, wotc are actively pushing the concept of a s l o w e r metagame. Of course it's unlikely for that to actually go down, but it's an interesting thought that in TS they'd work to slow it all down a tad. I definitely think so in limited (with suspend and all) but constructed seems unlikely.
I just adore the doll and hope he makes it into some top 8s, somehow....
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I loved it when i saw it , ive pre-ordered four but since then ive played againest it and now i can see it as a little over powered .
It seems to just have limitless combos / synergy ... baiscally i think it won't be long before it may be banned or errated . Im basing this on the fact that its extemly difficult to eliminate , it just sticks around . Someone can remove it but theres also clone and followed footsteps to have potentially many more than 12 stuffy dolls making the combos easy to pull off ...
This should be a LEGENDARY ARFITFACT CREATURE imho and thats all i guess and it would be fair ..
NOTE TO ALL : the above could easily be interpreted as a jealous speal from somebody that has yet to rip a pack containing the stuffy doll which may have an element of truth :
QUESTION : is this card too overpowered ? , should it be legendary ?,
Obviously WOTC didn't think so - time will tell .. anybody else think this set has upped the anti in terms of STANDARD power with psionic blast back (say no more!)
It's not very powerful at all for tourney play, I think you're vastly overrating it. It's a 5 cc card that acts a defensive wall and pings your opponent for 1 each turn, unless you build a deck around it. A deck built around it would have to be all about burn, and most burn decks I know would rather be spending turn 5 on cleanup duty then investing in a slow pinger.
Funny how "it can be countered" is actually an accepted reason why a spell isn't good.
Not because it can be countered of course, but because how easy it would be to counter it, and how much tempo would be gained by playing, say a remand on it. Tapping out 5th turn usually means tapping out for the game-ending bomb, this little Doll does not end the game by any means.
I just don't see the archetype this would fit into. A straight burn deck could just aim everything at it's opponents head just as efficiently as at the doll. A combo-oriented deck that revolves around stuffy doll emo-pains would have to wait until after 5th turn to start doing it's thing (i'm assuming it would run things like Fiery Conclusion, Furnace, and that new R for 5 dmg lava hammer, all of which are subpar without the doll, and mediocre with it.) I for one would not enjoy tapping out turn 4 for a Furnace of Rath, with no other creatures in play, just a fistfull of burn.
It does potentially have a place in the sideboard of a standard red deck, as a means to circumvent COP Red and Ivory Mask, but on it's own, with a deck revolving around it, it's weak, more of a win-more card.
Funny how "it can be countered" is actually an accepted reason why a spell isn't good.
Hah, good point.
I suppose that means every spell isn't good, Magic's dead, goodnight.
It's a cool card, has potential for plenty of good uses - it's not broken though, no.
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Just because something can be countered, dies to sudden death and costs more than 3 mana doesn't mean it's a bad card. Tooth and Nail costed a total of 9 and still was vaguely format-defining. Grim Lavamancer has a toughness of 1 and is heralded as one of the best red creatures created. I don't think that Draining Whelk is going to be the archnemesis of stuffy doll, simply because there is no reason for the Stuffy player (that's fun to read!) wouldn't be playing some form of mana disruption... because when the blue player hits 6 mana and is smirking at you with 3 cards in hand, you already know you're done.
also, combos nicely with Crushing Pain... my biggest fear is that the true killer of stuffy doll will be the new red spellshaper (the one who casts flowstone strike) in... anything that splashes red. Between that, Rakdos guildmage, funeral charm and riot spikes, virtually anything with 2 or less toughness is dead.
If you have burn that can only hit creatures (like a certain new one mana spell), and your opponent has no creatures, bam, blast Stuffy Doll. It goes around CoP:Red, and Ivory Mask, too.
Also, board sweeping pain (like the Inferno ability on Jaya), includes your opponent on the fun.
AND if you have Spirit Loop on it, you can use it as a life gain engine. Nothing says fun like seperating your life total from your opponent's by huge degrees.
I know that what I've said has already been said, but there are a lot of valid uses for this card.
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Sure, Stuffy Doll can be countered, but so can basically anything. In this Type 2 environment, though, it's anything but indestructible if you're playing against black. You're got Last Gasp, Sudden Death, Darkblast, and Funeral Charm, all of which are heavily played or stand to be heavily played. White can also deal with it with Return to Dust, but that probably won't see much play. It also dies if you're stupid enough to block a flanking creature with it. Its effect is not really good enough for five mana, either. I'd stay away from it.
I'm not saying that the card isn't very playable, but its far from being 'Too Powerful for its own good'. It does combo well with burn spells, but it still dies to a lot of black-based removal. Last Gasp has seen tournament play in the past few months, and I really expect Funeral Charm to be highly playable. B for a card with multiple effects seems really good.
The point is, that if it does become such a powerhouse, there are still plenty of answers to it available in standard. Don't expect it to dominate.
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Is Stuffy Doll too good? Yes. I run a 300+ card casual deck, with only 4 creatures. Guess what. I just found the fifth. Sometimes a quirky, easily searchable, sensibly priced, and indestrucable creature is just what a deck that has a pariah in it somewhere ordered. :]
This card is only a herald of the speeding environment. It isn't a harbinger of doom. The era of long-game control may be over, but there are too many claims of OMG this card breaks standard [coming all from different directions] to think that we have a clear winner in any of them yet.
As a casual player, it is great for casual. The effect is fun and the art is awesome. However, it is just too slow to be a serious threat. 3 colors have easy answers for it (Hide and it's ilk, bounce and black in general), red outraces it, and green always has splash colors. It will be worth something because casual gamers like it, but unless some rediculous combo shows up in standard, I doubt it will see play.
Stuffy Doll does combo nicely with Guilty Conscience (2 card instant win once summoning sickness is gone), but that's in extended.
Here is the true use of the card. The potential of this combo in extended is fairly terrifying, and say hello to 2nd and 3rd turn wins in the eternal formats. History shows that two-card win comboes are rare and devastating.
"But one's an Aura!!11! Card disadvantagZ0rz!1!!" I hear them whine!! Doesn't hurt when one of the combo pieces is indestructible...
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Yeah, thank god for flanking or Stuffy Doll would be completely broken.
You hit the Doll with Lightning Axe. Furnace of Rath doubles the damage to the doll, and the doll does two times that to the player. 5x2=10, 10x2=20
So, in actuality, the first 2 turns of burn aren't necessary unless you're going against life gain.
EDIT: Sorry, didn't see that speculator had already posted this. I just skimmed to see if anyone had quoted him with their reply.
So how is stuffy doll going to get around draining whelk. Also the other big finishers did have to deal with relivent counterspells such as hinder, rewind, or even mana leak.
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hahahahha so true. Thats almost like saying a card isn't good because a playset of cards costs 60-80$...cause you know...thats alot of money.
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There is a huge difference between having you finisher countered, and having it countered while your opponet drops an even bigger flying finisher at the same time. Its the difference between mana drain and counterspell. Go play some vintage and see how mana drain effects the environment. Whelk will have the same effect, though not as drastic, on standard.
Any mono red burn style deck built by a competent magic player will at the very least include it in the sideboard, for the simple fact that it gets around both COP:Red and Ivory Mask. Another useful things is the way it turns any damage based board wipe effects(Pyroclasm, Wildfire etc.) into direct damage. It is also pretty good as a blocker against any pure beatdown deck.
It can be killed by Cruel Edict, Hit, Last Gasp, Smallpox, Sudden Death and many other less commonly used cards as well as the already mentioned flanking creatures if it blocks them.
Saying that a card is bad because it can be countered is inane. Almost all the cards in magic can be countered and most of the creatures in magic are much more easy to kill. I'm not saying its great but you cannot call it bad because of things like counters and removal because if you use that as a basis almost every creature in standard is bad and Scragnoth is one of the best because it gets around counters and has protection from blues removal(bounce, stealing and Psionic Blast).
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I know, but this was limited.
Where did anyone say that Stuffy Doll was bad because it could be countered?
Several people keep saying this, but I don't know who they're talking to because I don't see anyone saying anything remotely like "this card sucks because it can be countered."
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The only thing that can hurt it are Last Gasp,DarkBlast and Sudden Death.Since it will never attack it's safe from Condemn and Devouring Light.Pillory of the Sleepless just removes it as a chump blocker and even with faith's fetter you can still throw burn spells at it.Also as a friend noticed,It lets you burn an opponent with circle of protection red
The true strenght of the card is how well it will perform in the deck it's in.
Stuffy Doll will love red decks as it turns damage sweepers(Pyroclasm,Sulfurous Blast) into direct damage spells,while you keep an eternal blocker.It becomes more deadly surrounded by Whiptail Moloch and Firemaw Kavu
Myself I"m thinking of blue/black deck with cards like Douse in Gloom and Ribbon of the Night.
Again, who is making this argument?
I completely agree with you but I don't know who you're responding to. No one here is saying that the card is bad because it can be countered.
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To be fair, though, I think what the poster was implying was simply that at 5 mana it gives a blue player time to be sitting on a counterspell, and (I'm stretching my inference here) he thinks the t2 will not be slow enough to enable the key card of a deck to cost 5.
I'm inclined to think, to the contrary, wotc are actively pushing the concept of a s l o w e r metagame. Of course it's unlikely for that to actually go down, but it's an interesting thought that in TS they'd work to slow it all down a tad. I definitely think so in limited (with suspend and all) but constructed seems unlikely.
I just adore the doll and hope he makes it into some top 8s, somehow....
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It's not very powerful at all for tourney play, I think you're vastly overrating it. It's a 5 cc card that acts a defensive wall and pings your opponent for 1 each turn, unless you build a deck around it. A deck built around it would have to be all about burn, and most burn decks I know would rather be spending turn 5 on cleanup duty then investing in a slow pinger.
Not because it can be countered of course, but because how easy it would be to counter it, and how much tempo would be gained by playing, say a remand on it. Tapping out 5th turn usually means tapping out for the game-ending bomb, this little Doll does not end the game by any means.
I just don't see the archetype this would fit into. A straight burn deck could just aim everything at it's opponents head just as efficiently as at the doll. A combo-oriented deck that revolves around stuffy doll emo-pains would have to wait until after 5th turn to start doing it's thing (i'm assuming it would run things like Fiery Conclusion, Furnace, and that new R for 5 dmg lava hammer, all of which are subpar without the doll, and mediocre with it.) I for one would not enjoy tapping out turn 4 for a Furnace of Rath, with no other creatures in play, just a fistfull of burn.
It does potentially have a place in the sideboard of a standard red deck, as a means to circumvent COP Red and Ivory Mask, but on it's own, with a deck revolving around it, it's weak, more of a win-more card.
Hah, good point.
I suppose that means every spell isn't good, Magic's dead, goodnight.
It's a cool card, has potential for plenty of good uses - it's not broken though, no.
Spread the word.
also, combos nicely with Crushing Pain... my biggest fear is that the true killer of stuffy doll will be the new red spellshaper (the one who casts flowstone strike) in... anything that splashes red. Between that, Rakdos guildmage, funeral charm and riot spikes, virtually anything with 2 or less toughness is dead.
Also, board sweeping pain (like the Inferno ability on Jaya), includes your opponent on the fun.
AND if you have Spirit Loop on it, you can use it as a life gain engine. Nothing says fun like seperating your life total from your opponent's by huge degrees.
I know that what I've said has already been said, but there are a lot of valid uses for this card.
The point is, that if it does become such a powerhouse, there are still plenty of answers to it available in standard. Don't expect it to dominate.
Stuffy Doll + Guilty Conscience = 1 dead opponent.
Stuffy Doll + Guilty Conscience + Flickerform = One Dead Magic Player per turn.
Enlightened Tutor + Three Dreams searches out combo peices, Bottled Cloister can draw, add Wrath of God to control the board.
Great for schooling the noobs. Oh yeah.
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Here is the true use of the card. The potential of this combo in extended is fairly terrifying, and say hello to 2nd and 3rd turn wins in the eternal formats. History shows that two-card win comboes are rare and devastating.
"But one's an Aura!!11! Card disadvantagZ0rz!1!!" I hear them whine!! Doesn't hurt when one of the combo pieces is indestructible...
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