I believe the -3/-3 trick factored in another random creature (any of our others would do...in the specific case i think it was a BoP).
Pontiff comes in, his trigger is on the stack, sac saffi targeting pontiff, sac pontiff to ghost council and haunt the random creature (BOP/Wall/Warden/Elf/whatever), with ghost council's ability still on the stack (therefore, still in play), the Pontiff would return to play, giving another -1/-1, and then sac the haunted creature (Council still in play, but will have 2 leave play ability triggers on the stack now)
End result, council leaves play, you still have a pontiff in play, saffi is now in the graveyard as is whatever creature you sacrificed. -3/-3 to all the opponent's creatures. If mana was available, you could have also sac'd the pontiff again, haunted the same creature again, then sac that creature putting the two haunt triggers on the stack for a total of -4/-4.
Given that you think that most red decks that are aggro will be packing blood moon or magus of the moon, do you think it's important to have a basic swamp in our lands.
I've never had much luck running three bounce lands in any deck. Always seems like I'll get a couple in my opening hand and lose tempo just trying to develope my mana base. With Detritivores, Blood Moons, and Magus of the Moons being available to any red deck, and given that there are at least three competitive red decks (Gruul, Perilous Storm, and Goblinstorm) that won't be hurt much (if at all) running them, you're going to have them played against you at regionals. I currently run five basics in my build, 3x Forest, 1x Plains and 1x Swamp, just to have outs vs non-basic hate. My vote is not to run three bounce lands even if it's at the expense of a Gemstone Mine hitting the graveyerd.
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I believe the -3/-3 trick factored in another random creature (any of our others would do...in the specific case i think it was a BoP).
Pontiff comes in, his trigger is on the stack, sac saffi targeting pontiff, sac pontiff to ghost council and haunt the random creature (BOP/Wall/Warden/Elf/whatever), with ghost council's ability still on the stack (therefore, still in play), the Pontiff would return to play, giving another -1/-1, and then sac the haunted creature (Council still in play, but will have 2 leave play ability triggers on the stack now)
End result, council leaves play, you still have a pontiff in play, saffi is now in the graveyard as is whatever creature you sacrificed. -3/-3 to all the opponent's creatures. If mana was available, you could have also sac'd the pontiff again, haunted the same creature again, then sac that creature putting the two haunt triggers on the stack for a total of -4/-4.
Nighthawk, does it really work this way? In order for the haunt trigger to actually do anything, doesn't pontiff have to be removed from the game. It seems like if you target the pontiff with Saffi's ability, then sac pontiff to Ghost Council, and then put the haunt trigger on teh stack followed by Saffi's delayed trigger which removes him from the game that this will happen: a) pontiff will be returned to game, b) the haunt trigger does nothing on resolution, because there is no pontiff in the graveyard to remove from the game haunting a target creature.
The actual oracle text of haunt on pontiff is: "When this card is put into a graveyard from play, remove it from the game haunting target creature." It clearly refers to the pontiff that is supposed to be in teh graveyard. Without pontiff in teh graveyard, there is no card to remove haunting a target creature, so it seems to me that the haunt trigger on teh stack is countered upon resolution. Any other result would just seem very strange.
I could be wrong, I haven't read the comprehensive rules on haunt. Does anyone know for sure?
I believe the -3/-3 trick factored in another random creature (any of our others would do...in the specific case i think it was a BoP).
Pontiff comes in, his trigger is on the stack, sac saffi targeting pontiff, sac pontiff to ghost council and haunt the random creature (BOP/Wall/Warden/Elf/whatever), with ghost council's ability still on the stack (therefore, still in play), the Pontiff would return to play, giving another -1/-1, and then sac the haunted creature (Council still in play, but will have 2 leave play ability triggers on the stack now)
End result, council leaves play, you still have a pontiff in play, saffi is now in the graveyard as is whatever creature you sacrificed. -3/-3 to all the opponent's creatures. If mana was available, you could have also sac'd the pontiff again, haunted the same creature again, then sac that creature putting the two haunt triggers on the stack for a total of -4/-4.
Did some rules checking, and this won't work either. The haunt trigger goes on teh stack, but on resolution it does nothing. For haunt to have an effect, a card in a graveyard must be removed from teh game haunting the target creature. This question crystallizes the problem with the logic: since Pontiff was returned to play via Saffi, when the haunt trigger resolves, remove what from teh graveyard haunting the targeet creature (in this case a birds of paradise)? Answer: nothing, because pontiff isn't in the graveyard anymore.
COnsider this FAQ from Guildpact:
Originally Posted by Guildpact FAQ * If a card with haunt is removed from the graveyard in response to its haunt ability triggering, the haunt ability will resolve. But since the card can't be removed from the game, it won't haunt the target creature.
So, the only way we'd probably ever give our opponent's creatures -3/-3 is through the method I proposed a few posts earlier, where we return pontiff via saffi (have two -1/-1 triggers on teh stack at this point), then sac pontiff to Ghost council again, and this time haunt one of our opponent's creatures that has toughness 2 or less, so that when the two -1/-1 triggers resolves, this creature dies and another -1/-1 trigger is put on the stack). We could also do it by haunting Ghost Council and saccing Ghost council to itself, but, this means we spent 6 mana (3 to cast pontiff and 3 to activate the ghost council 3 times), lost our pontiff, lost the ghost council, and lost saffi to do this. Can't think of many times when that would be a good play.
How has testing of crime//punishment gone? Have people found it useful?
I wasn't there to see how Davin actually pulled this off, just heard the aftermath. I'll ask - he would have had to have done a Saffi/Pontiff saccing Pontiff to Council to have pulled it off, or he got by with an illegal play.
I will be testing with Crime/Punishment some this week through Tuesday. I will let you know how it works out for me.
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Hmm, if it's an illegal play, then A) The judge told him it was OK, because he pulled him aside and specifically asked if it'd work that way, and B) i guess it's broken on MTGO because Andy told me 2 days ago that he'd done the same trick on there two days ago. It's not unheard of for something to be wrong on MTGO, so we probably need to ask more specifically about this somewhere. Anyone have the email address of a lvl 3 or 4 judge? We don't have anyone above lvl 2 in my state
@Jaydee: Against aggro matchups, we're the control deck. against control matchups, the deck plays very much like an aggro deck, as we'll get a 1cc and 2cc down very early that they can't counter. This is usually either BoP/Essencewarden and Dark Confidant. As Dark confidant chips away at their lifetotal, it forces them to react, eventually, which opens them up for other spells. Sometimes all it takes is a 4/4, other times you get opened up to Chord of Calling and combo out immediately. (warden + saffi is all you need...and the saffi could have been countered for all we care).
The aggro component isn't Gruul, and it's not meant to be. However, the prominent control decks in the format don't have lifegain, so a couple early creatures can chip away at them as they're scared to tap out in fear of the combo going off. When they finally do react, we usually have enough saved up to pressure them and keep them off their gameplan. Sometimes this is the combo, sometimes not. It's difficult to understand how this deck works w/o playing it. Once you play it a few times, it makes sense.
*Riftsweeper: Multi-functional card: Or you remove a huge suspended detritivore, or you bring back your extirpated crypt champion, or i shuffle 1 SB card in my MD. I love his versatilety.
Shuffling a sideboard card into your library with Riftsweeper is not a legal play. Riftsweeper only affects cards that are RFG face-up; your sideboard is face-down.
Depends on the hand Jaydee, if it's possible to combo out, then great, but otherwise we lean on the wall of roots/hierarchs/teysa to absorb the damage until the combo is set up.
Jaydee, for the 2 open slots consider elves of deep shadow. he can give good mana fixing and/or chump blocking, and can also be useful against bloodmoon/magus of the moon. Also, is that protean hulk actually helping? Id probably cut it for ghostcouncil or maybe 4 up either wish, castigate, or chord. Same thing with the Nekrataal, ive never used him but if he works go for it.
On a side note, I just qualified for the MSS with project x!
Btw for a good SB wish targtet I'd suggest Teferi's Moat. It doesn;t really matter that it has U in the cost becuase you would only really wish for it if you can cast it with birds or a mine.
The primary reason it's even halfway decent (in my opinion) is because of it's ability to act as an aggro deck when the situation calls for it. It's ability to change strategy on the fly is huge, so if you can't combo, put beats down. Essence Warden probably gave you a huge boost in life total so they'll also have a headache trying to take you down. Most of the time anyways.
Got a definitive answer from Christ Richter, a level III judge on Starcitygames "Ask the Judge" feature, about the whole pontiff, saffi, ghost council, plus 1 random creature thing. I've bolded his answers, because I'm not sure if his indented formatting will carry over into this post.
On Jun 3, 2007, at 1:37 AM, Rob M wrote:
Hello:
Having a bit of a rules disagreement on another magic forum about the interaction between Saffi Eriksdotter and Orzhov Pontiff and Ghost Council.
Saffi and Ghost Council in play for me, as well as another creature in play on my side (let's say birds of paradise (BOP)). I play an orzhov pontiff, so -1/-1 trigger goes on stack. With that trigger still on stack, I sac Saffi, targeting the pontiff. I let saffi's ability resolve, so now it's just the -1/-1 trigger on stack. Then, I sac pontiff to using Ghost Council's ability, and this ability goes on stack (but as part of paying costs of Ghost Council's ability, pontiff goes to graveyard).
When pontiff goes to graveyard, two other triggers happen: the haunt trigger and Saffi's delayed trigger. I choose the order. I put the haunt trigger on the stack first, targeting my own BOP, then Saffi's delayed trigger on the stack. Now stack looks like this:
saffi delayed trigger (trying to return pontiff from GY to play)
haunt trigger (targeting my birds of paradise)
ghost council ability
-1/-1 (from pontiff originally coming into play)
I let saffi delayed trigger resolve, so pontiff returns to play, putting another -1/-1 trigger on top of the stack. Say we let this resolve, so that the haunt trigger is on top of the stack. Now comes the point of disagreement.
I say that if we let the haunt trigger targeting the birds resolve, it does nothing (or perhaps it is countered on resolution, because there is no longer a pontiff in the graveyard to remove from the game).
You are correct the ability will resolve and do nothing as the Pontiff is no longer in your graveyard.
The other folks say the haunt trigger targetting the birds works just fine if we let it resolve. therefore, they argue, they can use ghost council's ability again, this time saccing the haunted birds, since ghost council is still in play since we haven't let his ability resolve on teh stack. When the birds goes to the graveyard as part of the cost, the haunt ability triggers, and another -1/-1 goes on teh stack. Net result they say, is that three -1/-1 triggers get put on the stack and oppoonent's creatures get -3/-3.
That is incorrect, the Birds are not haunted.
According to them, the stack would look like this (after birds gone to graveyard):
-1/-1 trigger (from haunted birds going to graveyard)
Ghost Council ability (from saccing the birds)
Ghost Council ability (from saccing the pontiff)
-1/-1 trigger (from pontiff originally being played.
*Plus* a -1/-1 trigger has already resolved, which was caused when saffi returned pontiff to play. Net result when stack is resolved, a total of -3/-3 for the opponent's creatures.
I say that while we can certainly sac the birds to Ghost Council's ability since Ghost council is still in play since we haven't let the first Ghost council ability resolve, that there is no -1/-1 trigger put on the stack from the birds being haunted, because the haunted ability didn't do anything, because the pontiff was returned to the in play zone by saffi, and there was no card to be removed haunting the birds. net result, only two -1/-1 triggers on the stack.
This is correct.
After birds are sacced according to me, the stack would look like this:
Ghost council ability (targeting birds)
Ghost Council ability (targeting pontiff)
-1/-1 trigger (from pontiff originally being played.
*Plus* another -1/-1 trigger that has already resolved from pontiff being returned to play by saffi. net result, opponent's creatures have a total of -2/-2, once we resolve all the stuff on the stack.
Who is right?
You are.
I guess the basic question is can the haunt trigger do anything (by this I mean actually target the creature I am attempting to haunt in such a way that when that creature goes to the graveyard, the haunt ability triggers again) when it resolves if the card that would normally be removed from teh game is no longer in teh graveyard, but is actually returned to play?
No, it cannot.
Help.
Thanks.
-Chris ------------------
Christopher Richter
aka kriz_riktr
DCI Level III Judge
Ask the Judge - Starcitygames.com
Moderator MTGNews.com
The meta was pretty interesting. There were 20 people, and zero, I mean 0 dragonstorm. There was also only one bridge deck. I think I got lucky becuase I played aggro all the way up to the finals .
I don't remember much about the games cause they were 3 days ago, but here it goes:
Round One: Beach house aggro(?)
Not much to see here, he played stuff like mortify and watchwolf. Went off quickly and easily both games. 2-0
Round Two: Gruul.
Game one he comes out early with scabby and apes but walls and a hierarch muck up the board. He eventually chars the elephant, but I ride bob to a topdeck champion ftw.
For game two I decided to -1 castigate and +1 hierarch
Game Two: This game is a lot like the first, but he has more burn and gets me down to around 12 with a good amount of dudes. I get a wish and go for a moat naming green and in a few turns I chord for the teysa ftw.
Round Three: Scryb and force
This was a slightly budget version with looters over vipers. Game one I get the combo 5th turn and he targets the wrong thing with his psi blast, trying to kill my warden in resp. to crypt, but i save it with saffi.
Again for G2 I decide to side out a castigate for hierarch (a lot of aggro!)
Don't remember much about this other than I drew 3 wishes and used one to get a saffi ftw.
The next to rounds I ID'd (with a grull and another scryb and force) into the top 8.
Top 8 round one: Gruul (the one I Id'd with)
Game one goes pretty bad for me, I get to many land and get flooded with champions and no saffis, chords, or wishes. At any point if I topdecked one of those things I could've won. I stall him out for a while but eventually he wins with rusalka sacs.
Game 2: This game is much better. I get more beef out to stall his army. Things look grim as he cloaks up a scabby and plays out some more beef. I wish for moat and play it, stopping his attack. Next turn He drops Magus of the moon, but I have a forest, plains, birds, and 2 walls out. I wish for a congregation and play it eot. I get a saffi and warden next turn (thanks to bob) and win it right there.
Game 3: The one is pretty easy. He has land troubles and plays a BTS when he has char in hand. I go off next turn FTW.
Round 2 Top 8: (scryb &Force, The one I ID'd with)
I thought I had game one here. I castigate out a force from his hand of land land land birds force. He rides ohran viper into more draws and gets out another force. I can't find the combo. In the games I go off early, especially in G2 when he taps out for force, then shows me a hand of 2 trickbind and a remand. In game 3, I get inf life but he keeps playing. I wish for congregate and stack another combo (with teysa) ftw.
I drew in the Finals with Solar Flare
I can say that congregate and Teferi's moat were the MVP's. One question is: do we still need the pointiff MD? Most aggro decks now run beefyer guys and I dont want to waste a chord on him. I think he is better SB.
As for the right chord amount; for the 2 months i've played with Project X 3 had been fine. Becuase of this I see no reason to need to add a 4th. But 3 to 4 is always in the right Neighborhood. One thing I noticed is that i sided in the 4 elephant most games. I don't really see when wishing for him will really help. Id rather get something that wins right there. I want to find room for the 4th MD, maybe 3 wishes. Btw, I was never really unhappy to see wish, except for when I had a hand full of 3.
@jaydee I think ill keep 3 loxodons for know, ghost council is just too good. He may seem hard to cast but every land taps for either W or B apart from the 2 forests. He can end games also.
Not sure if jailer is that great against narco. For the same amount you can chord for saffi, which just stops them right there. Jailer can also get Dblasted. He could be SB maybe.
I've only ever gotten close to being decked once. It was against pickles and he refused to scoop after inf life. If you go inf like the oppusually scoops unless it is in the finals or something. Loaming shaman is interesting, but research// development is total crap imo
Teferi's moat is MUCH better than glare vrs most aggro. glare keeps your team tapped and the opp can play out more dudes. Moat stops them all and leaves your guys open for chords. Glare is only really good with token generators(I.e. vhitu-ghazi). Now that I think about it, I may have cut it for something else. On the other hand, it can actually be pretty useful against decks that play a few threats like solar flare, angel fire, and maybe Dstorm
I probably would have used 1 or 2 canopies but I arrived late for the MSS so I had no time for last minute changes. Neededing to take pain everytime can be a bit unappealing, especially for this deck. prob. no more than 1 or 2.
I'm not running this deck at regionals (I like it, but I've only been able to get two Saffis, and none of the lands) but I still might be able to help you. In addition to Harmonic Sliver, you can look at Ronom Unicorn, Cloudchaser Kestral, and Indrek Stomphowler to destroy Blood Moon. Harmonic Sliver seems like the best answer, though, as it is cheaper, destroys artifacts as well as enchantments, and can be wished for if nessecary.
Also, when playing a morph deck, be careful about Willbender, he can mess up your combo by changing your Saffi target, in addition to all the other Shapeshifter tricks. I saw that very play at an FNM last week.
I played Project X, without wishes. to a 7-2 finish at the Southern California regionals. Ended up 9th place. Losses to Dralnu and a Monoblack discard with 3 main deck extirpates. I beat Gruulx3, Solar Flare, Gb stompy, Bridge, Bw discard. One other Project x deck had a 6-0-3 record.
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Neatest MTG accomplishment: Generating Infinite Slivers in Booster Draft.
"It takes a remarkable cleric to turn a group of healers into a hospital."-Master Apothecary
I qualified for nationals!! South Atlantic (Concord/Charlotte) i think it is. The only change i made was to the SB, +3 Worship, -1 Teysa, -1 Castigate, -1 Stupor and it was INCREDIBLE. Rounds 1, 3, and 4 i face a mono-red aggro deck and 2x gruul decks and it won me all 3 matches by itself. I also used it in the top 8 match against the mono-red goblin storm deck and he couldn't do much about it. Thing is, i told *noone* outside of my testing partners about worship, then i walk up to buy some and the first thing i hear is "MAN, we've sold a ton of worships today!"....i thought i was being all original too :/ My list was otherwise the exact same as my list from the SCG tournament.
Matchups:
1) Mono-red Aggro with akroma and empty the warrens (win, barely)
2) Solar Flare (win, easy)
3) Gruul (win, barely)
4) Gruul (win, easy...opponent insisted on playing everything before his attack step...made decisions much easier on me)
5) Dragonstorm (win, barely...he forgets to side in his ignorant bliss game 2 and gets persecuted out...game 3 he mulls to 5 and persecute hits...then stupor gets the 2 trickbinds in his hand)
6) Dragonstorm (loss in 3 games, this gentleman ends up 8-0-1 in the swiss, then lost in the top 8 )
7) WGU control? (I never got to see how it really worked...game 1 i comboed out turn 4...i got infinite life + decked him with his own Court Hussar. I think he actually sided out court hussars, but infinite life + glare of subdual made him concede game 2)
8) Dragonstorm AGAIN (game 1 he gets the nuts...2 lotus, 3 lands, and i castigate turn 2..remand...turn 3 i see 2 dragonstorm and 2 telling time...i lose...game 2, infinite life combo = gg, goes to game 3, and i get a nuts discard hand of 1st turn BoP, 2nd turn Stupor which got remanded, 3rd turn Persecute which hit, and i draw a castigate and play it...eventually he has two cards and i reuse the stupor....he never had a chance to build up anything.
9) Intentional Draw...we played a fungame and it was what he called Go-sis...i had never tested the matchup so i'll take his word on that. Basically the fun game i got annihilated, things like maindecked extirpates and mystical teachings/transmute engines for tendrils and damnations is BAD. I was glad i ID'd, and we were both very tired at that point. He was in 8th and i was in 6th at that point and he still wanted to ID and risk it, we were just both too tired (and to his credit, he didn't want to risk knocking someone out at that point either when it was a fairly good chance we could both ID...mad props man). Luckily he made it in and i think he also qualified by beating the dragonstorm deck.
So the top 8 match i play against the mono-red snow goblin storm deck and he gets land screwed both games. 1 game he had a good hand, but castigate got the Seething song in his hand and he didn't hit a third land immediately. If he had, though, i had the Pontiff in my hand to deal with his goblins. Game 2 he mulls to 6 and risks a 1 land hand...gets his 2nd land around turn 7...game ends with me beating him with 2 teysa tokens and the trigger from Ghost Council...i couldn't attack with anything that didn't fly because of 2 gargadons on his side. I was at 60 life with Worship on the board by the end of the game, though, so it wasn't really that good a matchup for him IMO.
So that's that, gentlemen and women. Lesson of the day: Add worship, it's insane. I hadn't tested it at all, Avery (richard) had tested it the night before a couple of matches and didn't try too hard to talk me out of it. Good thing too
Note: Evan Erwin was there and, while he didn't film anything, I got him to say that he *might* give Project X some props now that he's seen me do so well with it twice in a row LOL. So watch the magic show to see if he actually *does* give us some props
Only top 4 Q'd in mine...if there were 9 rounds in Cheetah's Regionals, then it was likely top 4 there as well.
The list looks correct Jaydee. I never changed anything in my MD so it has to be right...infact the decklist i turned in was just printed off of the SCG site and i scratched out the SB cards and put in worships I'm sure it'll be up on a website somewhere in the next few days also. Loaming shaman wasn't so much useful in that it won a game by being played...it more won games because i had it in the deck or graveyard and my opponents knew they couldn't deck me out once i had infinite life, so they just scooped to save time. I had that come up atleast 3-4 times over the course of the day, mostly against aggro players that had no way to win otherwise.
Worship didn't need to be chordable/wishable. Just put in 3 and it ups the possibility of getting something backbreaking against the aggro matchups...statistically you get worship or hierarchs and you're in the game for a LONG time. Now i will note: most of the gruul decks DID have krosan grips in the SB...it's just that if i had won game 1, they didn't know i'd be running worship so they wouldn't side it in. So it was basically an auto-win game 2. In the future, people are going to realize that we'll run worship, or atleast the threat will be there, and they'll likely side in krosan grips game 2. Gruul was everywhere round 3 and 4 at the top tables, though, then it started to lose heavily and wasn't seen again. Good deck, but not the best deck in the format. I will say, though, that there was ALOT of hate for Gruul there....moreso than for bridgedredge. That helped me out alot.
Bitter ordeal: For a big tournament format i've not been worried about the mirror...most of the people playing the deck there are my teammates (usually myself and 1-3 others who had the deck together)...and the 2 other people i saw playing it had different variants that i don't think ran BO either. Basically, it's not a huge part of the field, so we shouldn't be SBing because of that. Control matchups it's just a win-more card. They'll usually scoop to infinite life, and they're usually not going to deck us with loaming shaman + crypt champions (to bring it back). With all the instant-speed removal they have, if the combo is going off for infinite life, you've probably just won anyways, you don't need to BO them on top of that to win right then. The card is just weak in this deck.
I went 3-4 drop at so-cal regionals. Winning against BW aggro, gruul, and boros. Losing to the mirror, d-storm, Ugw teferi control, and random stuffy doll jank i should have beat losing G1 to miscounting for my chord(didn't count the champ i had in hand) and losing G2 to his stuffy doll combined with worship. I knew the guy playing the deck though so......
The meta wasn't really what i expected, I expected way more solar flare and angelfire. The room was basically all gruul, narcobridge, and project x, with very little hard control or dragonstorm. Oh and a battle of wits was kicking ass and taking names. I wanted to hit the angelfire/solar flare matchups due to the decking thing as most of them aren't ready for it and will readily wrath with a court hussar out if they feel pressured, then you get to combo out oh so easy, but alas it did not happen.
I should have won g1 against the mirror, and g1 against the stuffy doll deck, but I misplayed so oh well.
Play of the night for me was against gruul. We were ground stalled with him having 2 llanowar elves, and 2 kird apes out. I have a saffi, essence warden, 2 walls, and 2 BoP in play. I top deck Sek'kuar and play him. Next turn I wish for crime//punishment, punishment at 1 wiping his board, netting me 3 tokens from my BoPs/warden, and swing in for 15 for the win.
All night I was having trouble drawing the combo and dark confidants. I was drawing my 1 ofs nearly every game, and lots of hierarchs. I actually drew 4 loxodon against boros due to loaming shaman;)
Last thing is the Court Hussar interaction commonly known? I was reading coverage from the SCG 1k, the last standard Grand Prix and Pro Tour and it wasn't mentioned once even in the coverage when the person playing X was playing a UW/x control deck with court hussar.
Avery tells me that trick is common to happen on MTGO (i don't have PX built on MTGO), but there's not alot of people playing PX on MTGO, so it's probably not to most people due to lack of testing. Even a judge that was nearby leaned over to walk through what i did because he didn't know that it could happen either. After a minute he just nodded and said "yep, that works" and walked away.
Not MTGO - Workstation, but it's a konwn trick by more than a few PX players, not so much for others. I have the deck built on MTGO but rarely play it due to the time constraints.
Our meta was heavy combo (Dragonstorm mostly) Gruul and Narco Bridge. I didn't play vs any Aggro or Bridge decks though. I got paired against Wish Control - Dragonstorm - Dralnu and Solar Flare. All difficult match-ups and I wound up 1-2-1. Dragonstorm went off against me on turn three and turn four, on Game two (T4) he went off after I already Castigated and Stupored him.
I had the Dralnu player in my sights after a long gruuling (pun intended) match, I had a Mystic Enforcer in play and I got him to 6/6 flying status via getting my Wall of Roots and Gemstone Mine in my GY. Late game, probably turn 10 or so, and her had 3x Desert in play and Storage lands. He's at two life and I'm hoping he doesn't Damnation on his turn, he doesn't. I attack with my Enforcer believing he has no MD answers available at instant speed, I was wrong. He played Think Twice, counterd it with his own Draining Whelk, blocked and used the Deserts to kill my Enforcer. I lost a few turns later to Teferi and tokens. Hats off to the guy for comnig up with that play.
A couple of more stories from my spectator status after I dropped. Same Dralnu player vs Bridge Dredge a little later. The Dredge player has lethal damage next turn with one card left in his GY. Dralnu draws his card and it's an Extirpate. No way for him to win now, right? Well he looks through and counts the cards in his opponents GY and Extirpates what he hopes is the last card left in the Dredge's library.... he hits, passes turn, and decks the poor guy!
Twice players lost games to my testing partners because of not being able to pay upkeep on Slaughter Pact. Once when a guy Pacted out a creature and then got Magus of Moon played on him with no basics, and another when a guy played Pact (his main phase) and then played a Orzhov Basilica, my friend played a Venser bouncing the Basilica and passed turn for the win.
I have never had any problem against Dredge, they have no late game. Remember that you can respond to the Bridge trigger by getting a critter of yours (usually Saffi) into the GY and prevent Bridges effects from putting tokens into play.
Dralnu is the worst match-up, not Dragonstorm, but not many players play Dralnu (at least correctly). Dragonstorm got Scott once in almost the same manner I lost. Scott Castigated and was looking down the barrel of double Telling Times and Double Dragonstorms in the guys hand and him with two Blooms coming into play next turn.
1st person to get Pontiff usually won in our mirror match testing.
i pretty much used my wishes 3 times all day because i never seemed to draw them. Ofcourse, i was siding them out against aggro matchups all day for Worships, and against Dragonstorm for the discard package, so that's the main reason why. I did wish for Congregation once out of those 3...and at the SCG tournament it was 75% of the time i wished for Congregation, so i'm keeping it. Congregation is mostly for the matches where A) you're not getting any of the combo pieces B) you need 3 hierarchs or C) you fear disruption and need to get multiples of the same combo piece to ensure it'll go off.
Sek'kuar is unneeded...too much to chord for, too much to wish for and play. We didn't even like hierarchs and Teysa in the SB to wish for, you can imagine our feelings on 5cc.
About the Hussar thing.. I always thought champion said you may, but when I looked him up on gatherer its a must LOL.
Also, I'm a fan of sekkuar, but its probably prefrance because I've played him from the start. I'll never forget one game when the opp wrathed, I chorded for him and saved him with saffi, then swung back at him for 16 and the win. He can also be hardcast and randomly win games. he has good synergy with GC and essence warden. You could replace him though, He isn't always needed.
Also, I don't think dstorm is the worst match up. It can be pretty bad, but depending on the SB it can swing back and forth. I'm willing to say that most things BW and controlish can be hard, castigates and persecutes and hyppies along with 4+ wrath can hurt.
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Pontiff comes in, his trigger is on the stack, sac saffi targeting pontiff, sac pontiff to ghost council and haunt the random creature (BOP/Wall/Warden/Elf/whatever), with ghost council's ability still on the stack (therefore, still in play), the Pontiff would return to play, giving another -1/-1, and then sac the haunted creature (Council still in play, but will have 2 leave play ability triggers on the stack now)
End result, council leaves play, you still have a pontiff in play, saffi is now in the graveyard as is whatever creature you sacrificed. -3/-3 to all the opponent's creatures. If mana was available, you could have also sac'd the pontiff again, haunted the same creature again, then sac that creature putting the two haunt triggers on the stack for a total of -4/-4.
I've never had much luck running three bounce lands in any deck. Always seems like I'll get a couple in my opening hand and lose tempo just trying to develope my mana base. With Detritivores, Blood Moons, and Magus of the Moons being available to any red deck, and given that there are at least three competitive red decks (Gruul, Perilous Storm, and Goblinstorm) that won't be hurt much (if at all) running them, you're going to have them played against you at regionals. I currently run five basics in my build, 3x Forest, 1x Plains and 1x Swamp, just to have outs vs non-basic hate. My vote is not to run three bounce lands even if it's at the expense of a Gemstone Mine hitting the graveyerd.
Member: Team Revolution & MTGSalivation
Nighthawk, does it really work this way? In order for the haunt trigger to actually do anything, doesn't pontiff have to be removed from the game. It seems like if you target the pontiff with Saffi's ability, then sac pontiff to Ghost Council, and then put the haunt trigger on teh stack followed by Saffi's delayed trigger which removes him from the game that this will happen: a) pontiff will be returned to game, b) the haunt trigger does nothing on resolution, because there is no pontiff in the graveyard to remove from the game haunting a target creature.
The actual oracle text of haunt on pontiff is: "When this card is put into a graveyard from play, remove it from the game haunting target creature." It clearly refers to the pontiff that is supposed to be in teh graveyard. Without pontiff in teh graveyard, there is no card to remove haunting a target creature, so it seems to me that the haunt trigger on teh stack is countered upon resolution. Any other result would just seem very strange.
I could be wrong, I haven't read the comprehensive rules on haunt. Does anyone know for sure?
Did some rules checking, and this won't work either. The haunt trigger goes on teh stack, but on resolution it does nothing. For haunt to have an effect, a card in a graveyard must be removed from teh game haunting the target creature. This question crystallizes the problem with the logic: since Pontiff was returned to play via Saffi, when the haunt trigger resolves, remove what from teh graveyard haunting the targeet creature (in this case a birds of paradise)? Answer: nothing, because pontiff isn't in the graveyard anymore.
COnsider this FAQ from Guildpact:
Originally Posted by Guildpact FAQ
* If a card with haunt is removed from the graveyard in response to its haunt ability triggering, the haunt ability will resolve. But since the card can't be removed from the game, it won't haunt the target creature.
So, the only way we'd probably ever give our opponent's creatures -3/-3 is through the method I proposed a few posts earlier, where we return pontiff via saffi (have two -1/-1 triggers on teh stack at this point), then sac pontiff to Ghost council again, and this time haunt one of our opponent's creatures that has toughness 2 or less, so that when the two -1/-1 triggers resolves, this creature dies and another -1/-1 trigger is put on the stack). We could also do it by haunting Ghost Council and saccing Ghost council to itself, but, this means we spent 6 mana (3 to cast pontiff and 3 to activate the ghost council 3 times), lost our pontiff, lost the ghost council, and lost saffi to do this. Can't think of many times when that would be a good play.
How has testing of crime//punishment gone? Have people found it useful?
I will be testing with Crime/Punishment some this week through Tuesday. I will let you know how it works out for me.
Member: Team Revolution & MTGSalivation
@Jaydee: Against aggro matchups, we're the control deck. against control matchups, the deck plays very much like an aggro deck, as we'll get a 1cc and 2cc down very early that they can't counter. This is usually either BoP/Essencewarden and Dark Confidant. As Dark confidant chips away at their lifetotal, it forces them to react, eventually, which opens them up for other spells. Sometimes all it takes is a 4/4, other times you get opened up to Chord of Calling and combo out immediately. (warden + saffi is all you need...and the saffi could have been countered for all we care).
The aggro component isn't Gruul, and it's not meant to be. However, the prominent control decks in the format don't have lifegain, so a couple early creatures can chip away at them as they're scared to tap out in fear of the combo going off. When they finally do react, we usually have enough saved up to pressure them and keep them off their gameplan. Sometimes this is the combo, sometimes not. It's difficult to understand how this deck works w/o playing it. Once you play it a few times, it makes sense.
Shuffling a sideboard card into your library with Riftsweeper is not a legal play. Riftsweeper only affects cards that are RFG face-up; your sideboard is face-down.
Just thought you should know.
On a side note, I just qualified for the MSS with project x!
Btw for a good SB wish targtet I'd suggest Teferi's Moat. It doesn;t really matter that it has U in the cost becuase you would only really wish for it if you can cast it with birds or a mine.
On Jun 3, 2007, at 1:37 AM, Rob M wrote:
You are correct the ability will resolve and do nothing as the Pontiff is no longer in your graveyard.
That is incorrect, the Birds are not haunted.
This is correct.
You are.
No, it cannot.
-Chris
------------------
Christopher Richter
aka kriz_riktr
DCI Level III Judge
Ask the Judge - Starcitygames.com
Moderator MTGNews.com
3 crypt champion
3 essence warden
1 Teysa, Orzhov Scion
1 Sek'kuar, Deathkeeper
3 loxodon hierarch
1 Teysa, Orzhov Scion
1 ghost council of Orzhova
4 dark confidant
4 birds of paradise
2 elves of deepshadow
4 wall of roots
4 castigate
4 glittering wish
3 chord of calling
3 overgrown tomb
1 godless shrine
1 Caves of Koilos
1 orzhov basilica
1 selesnya sanctuary
1 pendelhaven
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 gemstone mine
1 brushland
2 forest
1 plains
SB:
1 Glare of subdual
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Saffi eriksdotter
1 Teysa, Orzhov Scion
1 Hide//seek
1 Orzhov Pointiff
1 Teferi's moat
1 Congregation at dawn
1 Teneb, the Harvester
1 Harmonic sliver
1 Bitter ordeal
3 Tormod's crypt
The meta was pretty interesting. There were 20 people, and zero, I mean 0 dragonstorm. There was also only one bridge deck. I think I got lucky becuase I played aggro all the way up to the finals
I don't remember much about the games cause they were 3 days ago, but here it goes:
Round One: Beach house aggro(?)
Not much to see here, he played stuff like mortify and watchwolf. Went off quickly and easily both games. 2-0
Round Two: Gruul.
Game one he comes out early with scabby and apes but walls and a hierarch muck up the board. He eventually chars the elephant, but I ride bob to a topdeck champion ftw.
For game two I decided to -1 castigate and +1 hierarch
Game Two: This game is a lot like the first, but he has more burn and gets me down to around 12 with a good amount of dudes. I get a wish and go for a moat naming green and in a few turns I chord for the teysa ftw.
Round Three: Scryb and force
This was a slightly budget version with looters over vipers. Game one I get the combo 5th turn and he targets the wrong thing with his psi blast, trying to kill my warden in resp. to crypt, but i save it with saffi.
Again for G2 I decide to side out a castigate for hierarch (a lot of aggro!)
Don't remember much about this other than I drew 3 wishes and used one to get a saffi ftw.
The next to rounds I ID'd (with a grull and another scryb and force) into the top 8.
Top 8 round one: Gruul (the one I Id'd with)
Game one goes pretty bad for me, I get to many land and get flooded with champions and no saffis, chords, or wishes. At any point if I topdecked one of those things I could've won. I stall him out for a while but eventually he wins with rusalka sacs.
Game 2: This game is much better. I get more beef out to stall his army. Things look grim as he cloaks up a scabby and plays out some more beef. I wish for moat and play it, stopping his attack. Next turn He drops Magus of the moon, but I have a forest, plains, birds, and 2 walls out. I wish for a congregation and play it eot. I get a saffi and warden next turn (thanks to bob) and win it right there.
Game 3: The one is pretty easy. He has land troubles and plays a BTS when he has char in hand. I go off next turn FTW.
Round 2 Top 8: (scryb &Force, The one I ID'd with)
I thought I had game one here. I castigate out a force from his hand of land land land birds force. He rides ohran viper into more draws and gets out another force. I can't find the combo. In the games I go off early, especially in G2 when he taps out for force, then shows me a hand of 2 trickbind and a remand. In game 3, I get inf life but he keeps playing. I wish for congregate and stack another combo (with teysa) ftw.
I drew in the Finals with Solar Flare
I can say that congregate and Teferi's moat were the MVP's. One question is: do we still need the pointiff MD? Most aggro decks now run beefyer guys and I dont want to waste a chord on him. I think he is better SB.
As for the right chord amount; for the 2 months i've played with Project X 3 had been fine. Becuase of this I see no reason to need to add a 4th. But 3 to 4 is always in the right Neighborhood. One thing I noticed is that i sided in the 4 elephant most games. I don't really see when wishing for him will really help. Id rather get something that wins right there. I want to find room for the 4th MD, maybe 3 wishes. Btw, I was never really unhappy to see wish, except for when I had a hand full of 3.
Thats all for now
Not sure if jailer is that great against narco. For the same amount you can chord for saffi, which just stops them right there. Jailer can also get Dblasted. He could be SB maybe.
I've only ever gotten close to being decked once. It was against pickles and he refused to scoop after inf life. If you go inf like the oppusually scoops unless it is in the finals or something. Loaming shaman is interesting, but research// development is total crap imo
Teferi's moat is MUCH better than glare vrs most aggro. glare keeps your team tapped and the opp can play out more dudes. Moat stops them all and leaves your guys open for chords. Glare is only really good with token generators(I.e. vhitu-ghazi). Now that I think about it, I may have cut it for something else. On the other hand, it can actually be pretty useful against decks that play a few threats like solar flare, angel fire, and maybe Dstorm
I probably would have used 1 or 2 canopies but I arrived late for the MSS so I had no time for last minute changes. Neededing to take pain everytime can be a bit unappealing, especially for this deck. prob. no more than 1 or 2.
Also, when playing a morph deck, be careful about Willbender, he can mess up your combo by changing your Saffi target, in addition to all the other Shapeshifter tricks. I saw that very play at an FNM last week.
Good luck at Regionals.
Neatest MTG accomplishment: Generating Infinite Slivers in Booster Draft.
"It takes a remarkable cleric to turn a group of healers into a hospital."-Master Apothecary
Matchups:
1) Mono-red Aggro with akroma and empty the warrens (win, barely)
2) Solar Flare (win, easy)
3) Gruul (win, barely)
4) Gruul (win, easy...opponent insisted on playing everything before his attack step...made decisions much easier on me)
5) Dragonstorm (win, barely...he forgets to side in his ignorant bliss game 2 and gets persecuted out...game 3 he mulls to 5 and persecute hits...then stupor gets the 2 trickbinds in his hand)
6) Dragonstorm (loss in 3 games, this gentleman ends up 8-0-1 in the swiss, then lost in the top 8
7) WGU control? (I never got to see how it really worked...game 1 i comboed out turn 4...i got infinite life + decked him with his own Court Hussar. I think he actually sided out court hussars, but infinite life + glare of subdual made him concede game 2)
8) Dragonstorm AGAIN (game 1 he gets the nuts...2 lotus, 3 lands, and i castigate turn 2..remand...turn 3 i see 2 dragonstorm and 2 telling time...i lose...game 2, infinite life combo = gg, goes to game 3, and i get a nuts discard hand of 1st turn BoP, 2nd turn Stupor which got remanded, 3rd turn Persecute which hit, and i draw a castigate and play it...eventually he has two cards and i reuse the stupor....he never had a chance to build up anything.
9) Intentional Draw...we played a fungame and it was what he called Go-sis...i had never tested the matchup so i'll take his word on that. Basically the fun game i got annihilated, things like maindecked extirpates and mystical teachings/transmute engines for tendrils and damnations is BAD. I was glad i ID'd, and we were both very tired at that point. He was in 8th and i was in 6th at that point and he still wanted to ID and risk it, we were just both too tired (and to his credit, he didn't want to risk knocking someone out at that point either when it was a fairly good chance we could both ID...mad props man). Luckily he made it in and i think he also qualified by beating the dragonstorm deck.
So the top 8 match i play against the mono-red snow goblin storm deck and he gets land screwed both games. 1 game he had a good hand, but castigate got the Seething song in his hand and he didn't hit a third land immediately. If he had, though, i had the Pontiff in my hand to deal with his goblins. Game 2 he mulls to 6 and risks a 1 land hand...gets his 2nd land around turn 7...game ends with me beating him with 2 teysa tokens and the trigger from Ghost Council...i couldn't attack with anything that didn't fly because of 2 gargadons on his side. I was at 60 life with Worship on the board by the end of the game, though, so it wasn't really that good a matchup for him IMO.
So that's that, gentlemen and women. Lesson of the day: Add worship, it's insane. I hadn't tested it at all, Avery (richard) had tested it the night before a couple of matches and didn't try too hard to talk me out of it. Good thing too
Note: Evan Erwin was there and, while he didn't film anything, I got him to say that he *might* give Project X some props now that he's seen me do so well with it twice in a row LOL. So watch the magic show to see if he actually *does* give us some props
The list looks correct Jaydee. I never changed anything in my MD so it has to be right...infact the decklist i turned in was just printed off of the SCG site and i scratched out the SB cards and put in worships
Worship didn't need to be chordable/wishable. Just put in 3 and it ups the possibility of getting something backbreaking against the aggro matchups...statistically you get worship or hierarchs and you're in the game for a LONG time. Now i will note: most of the gruul decks DID have krosan grips in the SB...it's just that if i had won game 1, they didn't know i'd be running worship so they wouldn't side it in. So it was basically an auto-win game 2. In the future, people are going to realize that we'll run worship, or atleast the threat will be there, and they'll likely side in krosan grips game 2. Gruul was everywhere round 3 and 4 at the top tables, though, then it started to lose heavily and wasn't seen again. Good deck, but not the best deck in the format. I will say, though, that there was ALOT of hate for Gruul there....moreso than for bridgedredge. That helped me out alot.
Bitter ordeal: For a big tournament format i've not been worried about the mirror...most of the people playing the deck there are my teammates (usually myself and 1-3 others who had the deck together)...and the 2 other people i saw playing it had different variants that i don't think ran BO either. Basically, it's not a huge part of the field, so we shouldn't be SBing because of that. Control matchups it's just a win-more card. They'll usually scoop to infinite life, and they're usually not going to deck us with loaming shaman + crypt champions (to bring it back). With all the instant-speed removal they have, if the combo is going off for infinite life, you've probably just won anyways, you don't need to BO them on top of that to win right then. The card is just weak in this deck.
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple Garden
3 Godless Shrine
1 Orzhov Basilica
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Saffi Eriksdotter
3 Crypt Champion
1 Teysa, Orzhov Scion
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Elves of Deep Shadow
4 Dark Confidant4 Wall of Roots
3 Essence Warden
3 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Ghost Council of Orzhova
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper
3 Castigate
3 Glittering Wish
1 Saffi Eriksdotter
1 Teysa, Orzhov Scion
1 Castigate
1 Congregation at Dawn
1 Mortify
3 Persecute
4 Stupor
1 Putrefy
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Crime/Punishment
The meta wasn't really what i expected, I expected way more solar flare and angelfire. The room was basically all gruul, narcobridge, and project x, with very little hard control or dragonstorm. Oh and a battle of wits was kicking ass and taking names. I wanted to hit the angelfire/solar flare matchups due to the decking thing as most of them aren't ready for it and will readily wrath with a court hussar out if they feel pressured, then you get to combo out oh so easy, but alas it did not happen.
I should have won g1 against the mirror, and g1 against the stuffy doll deck, but I misplayed so oh well.
Play of the night for me was against gruul. We were ground stalled with him having 2 llanowar elves, and 2 kird apes out. I have a saffi, essence warden, 2 walls, and 2 BoP in play. I top deck Sek'kuar and play him. Next turn I wish for crime//punishment, punishment at 1 wiping his board, netting me 3 tokens from my BoPs/warden, and swing in for 15 for the win.
All night I was having trouble drawing the combo and dark confidants. I was drawing my 1 ofs nearly every game, and lots of hierarchs. I actually drew 4 loxodon against boros due to loaming shaman;)
Last thing is the Court Hussar interaction commonly known? I was reading coverage from the SCG 1k, the last standard Grand Prix and Pro Tour and it wasn't mentioned once even in the coverage when the person playing X was playing a UW/x control deck with court hussar.
Our meta was heavy combo (Dragonstorm mostly) Gruul and Narco Bridge. I didn't play vs any Aggro or Bridge decks though. I got paired against Wish Control - Dragonstorm - Dralnu and Solar Flare. All difficult match-ups and I wound up 1-2-1. Dragonstorm went off against me on turn three and turn four, on Game two (T4) he went off after I already Castigated and Stupored him.
I had the Dralnu player in my sights after a long gruuling (pun intended) match, I had a Mystic Enforcer in play and I got him to 6/6 flying status via getting my Wall of Roots and Gemstone Mine in my GY. Late game, probably turn 10 or so, and her had 3x Desert in play and Storage lands. He's at two life and I'm hoping he doesn't Damnation on his turn, he doesn't. I attack with my Enforcer believing he has no MD answers available at instant speed, I was wrong. He played Think Twice, counterd it with his own Draining Whelk, blocked and used the Deserts to kill my Enforcer. I lost a few turns later to Teferi and tokens. Hats off to the guy for comnig up with that play.
A couple of more stories from my spectator status after I dropped. Same Dralnu player vs Bridge Dredge a little later. The Dredge player has lethal damage next turn with one card left in his GY. Dralnu draws his card and it's an Extirpate. No way for him to win now, right? Well he looks through and counts the cards in his opponents GY and Extirpates what he hopes is the last card left in the Dredge's library.... he hits, passes turn, and decks the poor guy!
Twice players lost games to my testing partners because of not being able to pay upkeep on Slaughter Pact. Once when a guy Pacted out a creature and then got Magus of Moon played on him with no basics, and another when a guy played Pact (his main phase) and then played a Orzhov Basilica, my friend played a Venser bouncing the Basilica and passed turn for the win.
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I have never had any problem against Dredge, they have no late game. Remember that you can respond to the Bridge trigger by getting a critter of yours (usually Saffi) into the GY and prevent Bridges effects from putting tokens into play.
Dralnu is the worst match-up, not Dragonstorm, but not many players play Dralnu (at least correctly). Dragonstorm got Scott once in almost the same manner I lost. Scott Castigated and was looking down the barrel of double Telling Times and Double Dragonstorms in the guys hand and him with two Blooms coming into play next turn.
Member: Team Revolution & MTGSalivation
i pretty much used my wishes 3 times all day because i never seemed to draw them. Ofcourse, i was siding them out against aggro matchups all day for Worships, and against Dragonstorm for the discard package, so that's the main reason why. I did wish for Congregation once out of those 3...and at the SCG tournament it was 75% of the time i wished for Congregation, so i'm keeping it. Congregation is mostly for the matches where A) you're not getting any of the combo pieces B) you need 3 hierarchs or C) you fear disruption and need to get multiples of the same combo piece to ensure it'll go off.
Sek'kuar is unneeded...too much to chord for, too much to wish for and play. We didn't even like hierarchs and Teysa in the SB to wish for, you can imagine our feelings on 5cc.
Also, I'm a fan of sekkuar, but its probably prefrance because I've played him from the start. I'll never forget one game when the opp wrathed, I chorded for him and saved him with saffi, then swung back at him for 16 and the win. He can also be hardcast and randomly win games. he has good synergy with GC and essence warden. You could replace him though, He isn't always needed.
Also, I don't think dstorm is the worst match up. It can be pretty bad, but depending on the SB it can swing back and forth. I'm willing to say that most things BW and controlish can be hard, castigates and persecutes and hyppies along with 4+ wrath can hurt.