Careful Consideration specifically is a card I've been a little on the fence about, so your input is appreciated.
It's better than people give it credit for, but... yeah, it's hard to fit into the deck. One big reason to run it, though, is if you want to run more card draw than just MT, but can't spare the room for 4 TT. 2 CC is plenty, and they can be quite helpful. You don't have to use it, of course, but you can. However, personally, I wouldn't run 2 CC and 2 TT; either 2 CC or 4 TT would probably be better.
Actually, the MWS shuffler is just better at shuffling than you; technically, if you're used to better draws, you're cheating. But I don't think you'll get called on it, no worries.
The other complaints are true, though.
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Banana of the Month Feb '05 Cool stuff here.
I have been testing against MGA as well. Its definatly a 50/50 preboard however if you resolve a skeletal vamire, you win in every game. There is absolutly nothing MGA can do against infinte bat tokens except ground break which can be countered or blocker by multiple bat. The max you will take is about 2.
Except of course for giving you the forest (or better still, the lone Stomping Ground) with Yavimaya Dryad, making him and Dryad Sophisticate both unblockable. Or... they could attack with Spectral Force, trample everything through and not even worry about needing Scryb Ranger to untap. For that matter, some versions of mono G even use Loxodon Warhammer, meaning that anything can run right over a bat for lots of damage.
I've been testing this matchup from both sides, and it NEVER comes down to vampire and win. What matters, is how efficiently Dralnu can handle the important creatures. I've found that as long as you can keep the big threats off the table, eventually you can Teachings for Dralnu and bury him under card advantage. Yeah it's usually Batman who takes him most of the way down from 20, but generally by the time Vampire hits play the game is already over.
SystemX: So you're doing most of your testing by playing matchups against yourself? That's a very dangerous thing to do. First of all, unless you have time to optimize each deck, odds are you're playing a sub-par version of each of your test decks. Secondly, you're probably a much better player with your main deck (in this case dralnu) than you are with each of the other decks you're testing against. Thirdly, you are only facing one version of each deck this way. You can't say anything about how your deck wins or loses a matchup as a whole, you can only talk about how you win or lose against a specific version of each deck. Fourth unless you are very careful, it's easy to use knowledge of what's in your opponent's hand to make a better play than you would in real life. One of the hardest parts of playing control is that you're trying to defend against all threats, without even knowing what they all are. Usually, in solo-testing the control player has an advantage that rarely translates into real-life matches.
I was told today that this kid on my team called 911 twice this morning and hung up both times. They called back and his dad answered. The reason the kid called 911? He got an erection and didn't know what to do. I wish I was making this up.
@Solace: The shuffling isn't accurate to how a real person shuffles,which is just the sad state of things. Although a shuffler such as the one used on MWS creates a more random and unbiased shuffle, it doesn't change the fact that by altering one element in a single game of Magic(in this case the quality of randomization of the shuffled deck), the way one chooses to build and play a deck will be affected by such nuances. This is because when certain cards or combinations of cards to become more, or less prevailant than others one's perception of that deck is changed. For example, in a less randomized deck a person may appear to get a certain card every game in their first three turns, despite only having two copies in thier deck. If they find that they are unable to use that card so early in the game they may reduce the number to one, so as to reduce their chance of drawing it in the early parts of the game. So for someone such as myself who is used to having a certain shuffle performed(my own and/or an additional one by an opponent, perhaps followed by a single cut of the deck) to then switch to another one a deck can appear foriegn, despite the all or any of the cards are well known to the player. Even a single cut of the deck can "hide" half of the cards in a deck.
@HKKID: Uh, sorry if I came across like I played against myself, no that isn't the case. I create copies(or close to) of the decks in my meta and usually play them against others before and after matches. Other than that I just test with friends at home, Sometimes I have to teach them how to play the deck, but usually they know. I do goldfish aggro decks and combo decks, but that's all.
As for CC, I personally liked 2 of them in my MUC, especially to discard ironfoots(think academy ruins) or think twice. they should be awesome in this deck, but what to cut? Think Twice is far too valuable in the early game.
The only way you can rely on a deckbuilding strategy that doesn't work in a truly randomized deck is cheating, plain and simple. If you get a harsher shuffle than you think you would in a real life tournament, look on it as a learning experience. Not to mention, in a MWS game, both players use the shuffler, so if it did convey an advantage or disadvantage, it would be spread equally to both players.
As far as TT and CC goes... there's just no way this deck has the room for 10 draw spells, no matter how much you like them. There's arguments to use either, but I strongly feel that using both at the same time is a mistake. Ok... maybe you could if you where heavily tooling the deck to take on control players, but not in any balanced list, at least.
whoa there's some serious me hate going around. I'm not always right. I'm not very good at magic. I am however a competent player and deckbuilder and have seen success (not to mention help others) at lower levels of play. Since you guys are playing at lower levels of play, than I don't need to be a world champ to help you.
Danehar: I've been wrong in the past. However usually what you hear from me is correct. For example rune snag is aweful in pickles and mana leak is much much much better. At the time, Pickles was a better deck than Dralnu, but then UW Tron and MGA got really popular.
Careful Consideration is awful and def shouldn't be played. I suppose you'll want support too........
Edit: Just remember. I'm here to HELP YOU. Use this valuable resource.
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SRdude, I have been playing Magic for approximately eight years, and saying that I am "at a low level of play" is frankly insulting. I may not be a pro, but I do know quite well what I am doing. And you know what? Yes, actual support for any and all of your egocentric arguments would be very much appreciated.
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I may not be a pro, but I do know quite well what I am doing.
IM pretty sure if you arent a pro, but you still play, thats called a "low level of play"
Anyway, Careful consideration is really bad for several reasons. First, it costs 4 so you can either play it really late game when its near useless, or you play it turn 4 and thus, cannot counter when you want to. Using it at instant speed nets you absolutely no card advantage. And since dralnu doesnt want to discard its counters, it wants to use them, thats not good. There is no GY abuse in the deck, and if you call flashback on mystical teachings GY abuse then you are wrong. Only being able to play it once doesnt warrent it being discarded if you can help it. Also, using it at sorcery speed nets you one card advantage. That is the same as the second think twice but think twice it far more efficient because it must be countered twice to stop you from getting a card and can be played EOT on turn 2 and onward. Lastly, if you are playing remand, which you should, you already have 4 more cantrips and along with repeal, this decks actually draws quite a lot of cards.
Also, any matches you play on mws don't count. Ya see, mws players are really really bad (even worse than mtgs users). Not to mention the fact that their lists are bad as well. Not having a decent opponent with a decent deck means that results are unreliable.
IM pretty sure if you arent a pro, but you still play, thats called a "low level of play"
I'm pretty sure most people on this site are tired of SRdude and his arrogant attitude. I've had enough of his lambasting of everybody.
I tried out Careful consideration replacing it for a Think Twice, but rarely would I get or use it. It's good for burning through your deck, but you'd need multiples of CC. And I don't think I'm gonna run Compulsive Research either.
Edit: Just remember. I'm here to HELP YOU. Use this valuable resource.
It is this sort of attitude that is drawing fire, SRdude. Making yourself out to be more valuable than anyone else comes off as arrogance. It's fairly easy to tell who knows what they're doing on these (or any) message boards. Those who present their arguments clearly and with supporting facts will tend to get more credibility. Those whose arguments are supported by "I'm a good player and I know what I'm doing, so I'm right," tend to be ignored or moderately disliked, at least.
We have no proof that you are a good player (and no, we don't want your DCI rating either), so we're not going to view you as one simply because you say so. Not only that, but as users of a message board, our only contact with each other (for the most part) is via the posts we make. Our personalities, our skills, our faults... all tend to come across in our posts. If you want people to take you seriously and believe that you're a good player (because simply stating that you're a good player doesn't mean that you are one, at least not in the eyes of people whose only contact with you is through MTGS), then you must support your arguments with actual useful information.
Regarding Careful Consideration, Lineazy's comments make the most sense to me. There's no point in using it late game, and using it early game leaves you vulnerable. Besides, as plenty of people have stated, this deck does have a fair amount of card advantage already.
Speaking of which, is 4 copies of Mystical Teachings too many? I've seen some builds that run 3, others than run 4. It's obviously vital to the deck, but it (like CC) seems like a mid-late game card, and therefore 3 would seem like a good number. But I've got little experience with this deck, so I'm curious as to others' opinions.
IM pretty sure if you arent a pro, but you still play, thats called a "low level of play"
He said I played worse than him, not a pro. He also said he wasn't a very good player. Worse than someone who isn't good is an insult if I've ever heard one.
And since dralnu doesnt want to discard its counters, it wants to use them, thats not good. There is no GY abuse in the deck, and if you call flashback on mystical teachings GY abuse then you are wrong.
Mystical Teachings, Dralnu, Rune Snag, lands you have too many or two few of, silver bullets useless for this match (Commandeer vs aggro or StS/Last Gasp/Repeal later on vs control, for example). Yes, it's better against control than aggro, but played at instant speed it's still very good. How many times have you sat and thought, 'well, I really wish this X in my hand was Y'? Pretty often, I'm betting. CC gives you a pretty good shot at drawing that MT/Tefari/hard counter you need. Again, I'm not saying that you have to run it, but you don't need to belittle people who do.
Speaking of which, is 4 copies of Mystical Teachings too many? I've seen some builds that run 3, others than run 4. It's obviously vital to the deck, but it (like CC) seems like a mid-late game card, and therefore 3 would seem like a good number. But I've got little experience with this deck, so I'm curious as to others' opinions.
Well, on one hand, if you draw multiple MT and find the time to play and flash them all, you're probably winning anyway. On the other hand, MT is probably the best card in this deck, so you really want to draw at least one. There's a fair reason to run either three or four; for example, if I was going to run 2 CC I might go down to 3 MT, because I'd be more assured of drawing one.
EDIT2: Come to think of it, a while back I said that 2 CC, 3 MT, 4 TT was the best set of card draw, but also that 9 draw spells was too many, and I didn't know how to make that work. But, with the new idea to replace TT with Remand, 2 CC, 3 MT, 4 Remand gives nearly the same drawing power, but without making a fourth the spells in the deck dedicated to draw effects; and it only takes up slightly more room than the 4 MT 4 Remand route. I'm gonna have to test that out.
Speaking of which, is 4 copies of Mystical Teachings too many? I've seen some builds that run 3, others than run 4. It's obviously vital to the deck, but it (like CC) seems like a mid-late game card, and therefore 3 would seem like a good number. But I've got little experience with this deck, so I'm curious as to others' opinions.
4 Mystical Teachings is really the way to go since its the core of the deck. It allows access to teferi which is the heart of dralnu and also lets you get your one-ofs. With less mystical teachings, the one-ofs see less play and become less effective. Maybe if your meta is 100% aggro, and you are the only control deck you might play 3 but even so, you can always fetch seize the soul so its always useful.
Mystical Teachings, Dralnu, Rune Snag, lands you have too many or two few of, silver bullets useless for this match (Commandeer vs aggro or StS/Last Gasp/Repeal later on vs control, for example). Yes, it's better against control than aggro, but played at instant speed it's still very good. How many times have you sat and thought, 'well, I really wish this X in my hand was Y'? Pretty often, I'm betting. CC gives you a pretty good shot at drawing that MT/Tefari/hard counter you need. Again, I'm not saying that you have to run it, but you don't need to belittle people who do.
I hope you dont think im defending SRdude as a person. however, and this is certainly on occasion, make relevent and insiteful posts. You shouldnt simply dismiss someone's posts because they post it badly.
Test careful consideration. You will find it is too slow against aggro and too useless against control. It will almost always get countered and you could be running better, more relevent threats. Dralnu does not "cycle through the deck" it is not a "cycle through the deck" you gain nothing from your cards being in the GY and lose a lot of tempo playing slow, overcosted and non-card advantagous cards. Dralnu is very balanced so you shouldnt find a time when you need to discard you hand and draw a new one. YOu have counters, a couple random removal and your winconditions. Sometimes you have a bad hand but that happens in magic. If you draw a careful consideration in your opening hand it means you have a dead card against aggro and a card that wont be played until really late game vs control. Think twice on the other hand lets you play it turn 2, and then turn 3 so its not dead in the early game and most likly wont even see a counter in the counter control. At the same time it is gaining you valuable tempo while not hurting you at all or giving your opponant a chance to fry you.
Also, any matches you play on mws don't count. Ya see, mws players are really really bad (even worse than mtgs users). Not to mention the fact that their lists are bad as well. Not having a decent opponent with a decent deck means that results are unreliable.
I have. As I've said a couple times now, it's better than people give it credit for, and that wasn't based just on reading it. It's a good way to draw into that MT that's been eluding you, or that hard counter you've needed while a Rune Snag's been set uselessly at 2, cycle the Repeal or Last Gasp or Spell Snare that's had no target, find the Desert or Storageland that's going to save you (or lose one that won't)... and so on. Picking which four cards out of eight you want to keep is pretty massive filtering, and helps set up the resolved Dralnu, which in turn lets you reuse all the cards you discarded anyway. It's not a must-have for the deck, but it's not nearly as useless as you keep saying.
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Banana of the Month Feb '05 Cool stuff here.
Im most curious, what did you take out for careful consideration. There is nothing that i would take from my build that would be better off as careful consideration. Whether or not careful consideration is good, there are better draw spells and then more versitile other spells that i would put in far before i put in cards that are late game cards that dont really effect relevent matchups. If you havent stabalized by late game, you are having probems that careful consideration doesnt mystically cure.
Also, any matches you play on mws don't count. Ya see, mws players are really really bad (even worse than mtgs users). Not to mention the fact that their lists are bad as well. Not having a decent opponent with a decent deck means that results are unreliable.
To make myself clear, lower levels of play include ptq's, mss's, and other such tournaments. Higher levels of play are gp's and the pro-tour.
I'm a pompous 15 year old. Not gonna lie. The only proof I have of me being a good player is that I beat up on lesser players at mss's and hook my crew up with decks which they win with. I'm getting better though so I expect to be getting actual acheivments like T8ing ptqs, regionals, and Day 2ing gp (I have my eyes on montreal). I know what I'm talking about. When I feel like typing a lot I write lengthy arguments based on results and reason. Usually what I argue for is incredibly obvious and is backed up by many tournaments and then people present ridiculous arguments with nothing backing themselves up and it makes me sad.
Surging Chaos: Everyone I've ever met ever has liked me as a person so it must be you (and the rest of the thread).
4 Teachings is a must. You want to draw one nearly every game, and in control matches your chances on winning vastly increase if you draw multiples. If I need to explain this then :-(.
Careful Consideration: Slow vs aggro, clunky vs control. Have fun tapping out for ca or getting your spell countered.
Im most curious, what did you take out for careful consideration. There is nothing that i would take from my build that would be better off as careful consideration. Whether or not careful consideration is good, there are better draw spells and then more versitile other spells that i would put in far before i put in cards that are late game cards that dont really effect relevent matchups. If you havent stabalized by late game, you are having probems that careful consideration doesnt mystically cure.
Well, first off I'd like to say that if you assume you can easily play Mystical Teachings, Careful Consideration can't be that hard either.
As for what to take out, well, that's the tricky part. The reason I hadn't been running it for a while was exactly because I couldn't figure that out, but with the idea of 4 Remand, 3 MT, 2 CC, I'm going to try again.
@SRdude: You're either good or you're not, you can't be both. And if you think your decisions are perfect just because you made them, well... why do you even come to a discussion thread? Last, if you don't feel like typing out your reasons for thinking something, don't post at all. Basic rule.
Edited out an unnecessary attack against another poster
Functionally, it would seem to expand the "toolbox" nature of the deck, as it could fetch and be fetched by Mystical Teachings. To extend the toolbox, single copies of 4 cc spells (non-instant) such as a Damnation and a Persecute could be included maindeck. Furthermore, Clutch of the Undercity could be used as a regular bounce spell against the storage lands and Karoos. Lastly, it could double as a win condition by dealing 3 damage - not too bad when flashed with Dralnu.
As for the Tidespout Tyrant, it has been doing some rediculous things in testing, turning around many nigh unwinnable board positions. I used Jester's Cap (Triscuit-Tron sideboard) against a Dralnu deck to remove all Teferi's and Dralnu, yet Tidespout hit the table with counter back-up and it still won. Even though I had Wrath of God in hand, a flashable Think Twice was trumping.
Does anyone have any thoughts and/or experience with Clutch of the Undercity?
Well, first off I'd like to say that if you assume you can easily play Mystical Teachings, Careful Consideration can't be that hard either.
I cant believe you are actually arguing that mystical teachings and Careful consideration are the same at all. First, you can play teachings twice, so if it gets countered so what? Second, and most importantly, MYSTICAL TEACHINGS ACCOMPLISHES SOMETHING. Wow, its true but mystical teachihngs gets your win conditions or a relevent counterspell. Careful consideration? Not effectivly.
Surging Chaos: Everyone I've ever met ever has liked me as a person so it must be you (and the rest of the thread).
I dont hate you...dont lump me in with the rest of this thread. (remember, most of the them dont play remand)
Also, any matches you play on mws don't count. Ya see, mws players are really really bad (even worse than mtgs users). Not to mention the fact that their lists are bad as well. Not having a decent opponent with a decent deck means that results are unreliable.
Lesurgo presented a remand argument but did so in a way that you could argue he wasn't differentiating. That's very good writing, imo.
I see other people's point of veiw. However this mainly applies to people better than myself. If I think I have nothing to gain from a person and thier point of veiw contradicts with what mine and better players is, than I probably wouldn't listen. I don't really know why me saying that I'm good and that other people are bad bothered everyone so much. I don't use the boards as an idea forum so much as a source of entertainment, not to mention I enjoy helping people. Remember, SRdude is here to help you.
Think Twice is needed in this deck. Don't cut it for remand. Cut other cards for remand. I really like my current list. I think it's the perfect dralnu list and is very well-suited against the field. I probably would play other decks over this one in the current enviroment, but I haven't been focusing on T2 much.
Here to help us have someone to complain about maybe. Seems to me you're just bored and like stirring arguments that won't get you in trouble because rude and egotistical is tolerated.
On to a real topic, I had some really good games against Dragonstorm. I've almost decided that deck only beats itself. You can do everything right and lose. You can do very little right and win. Obviously its still worth giving yourself the best chance, but don't beat yourself up about losing to it. I had them down to 3 life, Teferi on board, no hand. They draw into Slight of Hand, Telling Time, , Dragonstorm with enough mana to cast it. This is after a couple turns earlier I already had a turn with 2! Rewinds, a Remand, and a Rune Snag ealier in the game on DS and 3 copies. I still think its a good matchup, but when they get the nuts or top deck the nuts, you won't stop them.
Nanka: I like the idea of Tyrant. You can use cheap counters for some bounce, other bounce for double bounce, and use Think Twice for another double bounce. Yikes, that can be pretty good! A really cool idea indeed.
Now...
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Cut it out Chaos, getting so worked just makes things worse.
SRdude does come off as a little pompous, but he really does know what he's talking about, and gives some good advice. People in this thread need to not take his "attitude" so personal, it's just how someone posts on the internet, it's not a big deal.
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I cant believe you are actually arguing that mystical teachings and Careful consideration are the same at all. First, you can play teachings twice, so if it gets countered so what? Second, and most importantly, MYSTICAL TEACHINGS ACCOMPLISHES SOMETHING. Wow, its true but mystical teachihngs gets your win conditions or a relevent counterspell. Careful consideration? Not effectivly.
I'm not going to argue the uses of CC anymore because it's fairly clear you refuse to hear them, but my point was that it's exactly as easy to cast MT (a 4 mana blue instant) as CC (a 4 mana blue instant), so dismissing CC as 'hard to cast' while embracing 4x MT is illogical.
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Banana of the Month Feb '05 Cool stuff here.
Careful Consideration may be just as easy to cast, but he was right when he said that it doesn't always get you exactly what you need. On top of that, if you're casting it on yourself as an instant, you lose three cards from your hand, which really is only good if you have a Dralnu in play, but even then, you lose casting whatever spell it was the first time. It's not necessarily bad, since you get to see a bunch of cards when you do it, but it tends to be better to be able to search out exactly what you need, not hope to draw it. Also, Teachings lets you grab Teferi, then lets you grab Dralnu and Batman once you drop Teferi. For those reasons, I'd find it better to run 4x Teachings and not use Consideration. -Jack
This thread is completely out of control. If you'd like the ability to discuss this deck, you will all cut it out. If you can't control yourselves, you will all lose the ability to post soon enough.
Any discussion beyond Dralnu in this thread is an AUTOMATIC infraction from this point forward. Almost every single person who has participated in this misbehavior has been given an infraction already. Do not let it continue.
Think is a great, and you damn near always want it. Sometimes it's because the other guy is doing nothing, other times it's because you're letting him do something to set up the Damnation/Soul. Either way, you want a quick draw spell. The best part is, Think sits in your graveyard during control mirrors. Since you're probably discarding down to 7, this makes it great for rebuilding after a counter war. I'm dead serious when I say that Think Twice is probably the best card draw spell in a Dralnu deck.
Careful Consideration is similarly an AWSOME card. If you're trading 1-1 all day long (and that's a key part of your strategy), eventually you'll run out of juice, and it'll come down to who topdecks better. When that happens, Teachings is no better than a random counter, since generally that's what teachings finds. Consideration on the other hand draws you 4 new cards. Yeah, there's a discard factor... but unless you're doing something stupid like playing Consideration on the EOT step of turn 4, the discard shouldn't hurt much.
I'm not so fond of mystical teachings. They're not as good early on as think twice. Mid-game they're generally better than Consideration, but late game I usually prefer Consideration. Four is DEFINATELY a mistake, and I'm on the verge of dropping the 3rd copy as well. Really, if it wasn't for the ability to find Dralnu, there'd be no reason to play Mystical Teachings at all.
I was told today that this kid on my team called 911 twice this morning and hung up both times. They called back and his dad answered. The reason the kid called 911? He got an erection and didn't know what to do. I wish I was making this up.
It's better than people give it credit for, but... yeah, it's hard to fit into the deck. One big reason to run it, though, is if you want to run more card draw than just MT, but can't spare the room for 4 TT. 2 CC is plenty, and they can be quite helpful. You don't have to use it, of course, but you can. However, personally, I wouldn't run 2 CC and 2 TT; either 2 CC or 4 TT would probably be better.
If you notice, Careful Consideration is an instant. There's an option to play it as a sorcery, but you totally don't need to.
http://www.mwsgames.com/index.php/MWS_Shuffler
Actually, the MWS shuffler is just better at shuffling than you; technically, if you're used to better draws, you're cheating. But I don't think you'll get called on it, no worries.
The other complaints are true, though.
Possibly the last remaining member of the Banana Clan (+1)
Banana of the Month Feb '05
Cool stuff here.
Except of course for giving you the forest (or better still, the lone Stomping Ground) with Yavimaya Dryad, making him and Dryad Sophisticate both unblockable. Or... they could attack with Spectral Force, trample everything through and not even worry about needing Scryb Ranger to untap. For that matter, some versions of mono G even use Loxodon Warhammer, meaning that anything can run right over a bat for lots of damage.
I've been testing this matchup from both sides, and it NEVER comes down to vampire and win. What matters, is how efficiently Dralnu can handle the important creatures. I've found that as long as you can keep the big threats off the table, eventually you can Teachings for Dralnu and bury him under card advantage. Yeah it's usually Batman who takes him most of the way down from 20, but generally by the time Vampire hits play the game is already over.
SystemX: So you're doing most of your testing by playing matchups against yourself? That's a very dangerous thing to do. First of all, unless you have time to optimize each deck, odds are you're playing a sub-par version of each of your test decks. Secondly, you're probably a much better player with your main deck (in this case dralnu) than you are with each of the other decks you're testing against. Thirdly, you are only facing one version of each deck this way. You can't say anything about how your deck wins or loses a matchup as a whole, you can only talk about how you win or lose against a specific version of each deck. Fourth unless you are very careful, it's easy to use knowledge of what's in your opponent's hand to make a better play than you would in real life. One of the hardest parts of playing control is that you're trying to defend against all threats, without even knowing what they all are. Usually, in solo-testing the control player has an advantage that rarely translates into real-life matches.
T
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@HKKID: Uh, sorry if I came across like I played against myself, no that isn't the case. I create copies(or close to) of the decks in my meta and usually play them against others before and after matches. Other than that I just test with friends at home, Sometimes I have to teach them how to play the deck, but usually they know. I do goldfish aggro decks and combo decks, but that's all.
As for CC, I personally liked 2 of them in my MUC, especially to discard ironfoots(think academy ruins) or think twice. they should be awesome in this deck, but what to cut? Think Twice is far too valuable in the early game.
As far as TT and CC goes... there's just no way this deck has the room for 10 draw spells, no matter how much you like them. There's arguments to use either, but I strongly feel that using both at the same time is a mistake. Ok... maybe you could if you where heavily tooling the deck to take on control players, but not in any balanced list, at least.
Possibly the last remaining member of the Banana Clan (+1)
Banana of the Month Feb '05
Cool stuff here.
Danehar: I've been wrong in the past. However usually what you hear from me is correct. For example rune snag is aweful in pickles and mana leak is much much much better. At the time, Pickles was a better deck than Dralnu, but then UW Tron and MGA got really popular.
Careful Consideration is awful and def shouldn't be played. I suppose you'll want support too........
Edit: Just remember. I'm here to HELP YOU. Use this valuable resource.
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Possibly the last remaining member of the Banana Clan (+1)
Banana of the Month Feb '05
Cool stuff here.
IM pretty sure if you arent a pro, but you still play, thats called a "low level of play"
Anyway, Careful consideration is really bad for several reasons. First, it costs 4 so you can either play it really late game when its near useless, or you play it turn 4 and thus, cannot counter when you want to. Using it at instant speed nets you absolutely no card advantage. And since dralnu doesnt want to discard its counters, it wants to use them, thats not good. There is no GY abuse in the deck, and if you call flashback on mystical teachings GY abuse then you are wrong. Only being able to play it once doesnt warrent it being discarded if you can help it. Also, using it at sorcery speed nets you one card advantage. That is the same as the second think twice but think twice it far more efficient because it must be countered twice to stop you from getting a card and can be played EOT on turn 2 and onward. Lastly, if you are playing remand, which you should, you already have 4 more cantrips and along with repeal, this decks actually draws quite a lot of cards.
T2
BGU Dredge
I'm pretty sure most people on this site are tired of SRdude and his arrogant attitude. I've had enough of his lambasting of everybody.
I tried out Careful consideration replacing it for a Think Twice, but rarely would I get or use it. It's good for burning through your deck, but you'd need multiples of CC. And I don't think I'm gonna run Compulsive Research either.
It is this sort of attitude that is drawing fire, SRdude. Making yourself out to be more valuable than anyone else comes off as arrogance. It's fairly easy to tell who knows what they're doing on these (or any) message boards. Those who present their arguments clearly and with supporting facts will tend to get more credibility. Those whose arguments are supported by "I'm a good player and I know what I'm doing, so I'm right," tend to be ignored or moderately disliked, at least.
We have no proof that you are a good player (and no, we don't want your DCI rating either), so we're not going to view you as one simply because you say so. Not only that, but as users of a message board, our only contact with each other (for the most part) is via the posts we make. Our personalities, our skills, our faults... all tend to come across in our posts. If you want people to take you seriously and believe that you're a good player (because simply stating that you're a good player doesn't mean that you are one, at least not in the eyes of people whose only contact with you is through MTGS), then you must support your arguments with actual useful information.
Regarding Careful Consideration, Lineazy's comments make the most sense to me. There's no point in using it late game, and using it early game leaves you vulnerable. Besides, as plenty of people have stated, this deck does have a fair amount of card advantage already.
Speaking of which, is 4 copies of Mystical Teachings too many? I've seen some builds that run 3, others than run 4. It's obviously vital to the deck, but it (like CC) seems like a mid-late game card, and therefore 3 would seem like a good number. But I've got little experience with this deck, so I'm curious as to others' opinions.
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He said I played worse than him, not a pro. He also said he wasn't a very good player. Worse than someone who isn't good is an insult if I've ever heard one.
Mystical Teachings, Dralnu, Rune Snag, lands you have too many or two few of, silver bullets useless for this match (Commandeer vs aggro or StS/Last Gasp/Repeal later on vs control, for example). Yes, it's better against control than aggro, but played at instant speed it's still very good. How many times have you sat and thought, 'well, I really wish this X in my hand was Y'? Pretty often, I'm betting. CC gives you a pretty good shot at drawing that MT/Tefari/hard counter you need. Again, I'm not saying that you have to run it, but you don't need to belittle people who do.
EDIT:
Well, on one hand, if you draw multiple MT and find the time to play and flash them all, you're probably winning anyway. On the other hand, MT is probably the best card in this deck, so you really want to draw at least one. There's a fair reason to run either three or four; for example, if I was going to run 2 CC I might go down to 3 MT, because I'd be more assured of drawing one.
EDIT2: Come to think of it, a while back I said that 2 CC, 3 MT, 4 TT was the best set of card draw, but also that 9 draw spells was too many, and I didn't know how to make that work. But, with the new idea to replace TT with Remand, 2 CC, 3 MT, 4 Remand gives nearly the same drawing power, but without making a fourth the spells in the deck dedicated to draw effects; and it only takes up slightly more room than the 4 MT 4 Remand route. I'm gonna have to test that out.
Possibly the last remaining member of the Banana Clan (+1)
Banana of the Month Feb '05
Cool stuff here.
I hope you dont think im defending SRdude as a person. however, and this is certainly on occasion, make relevent and insiteful posts. You shouldnt simply dismiss someone's posts because they post it badly.
Test careful consideration. You will find it is too slow against aggro and too useless against control. It will almost always get countered and you could be running better, more relevent threats. Dralnu does not "cycle through the deck" it is not a "cycle through the deck" you gain nothing from your cards being in the GY and lose a lot of tempo playing slow, overcosted and non-card advantagous cards. Dralnu is very balanced so you shouldnt find a time when you need to discard you hand and draw a new one. YOu have counters, a couple random removal and your winconditions. Sometimes you have a bad hand but that happens in magic. If you draw a careful consideration in your opening hand it means you have a dead card against aggro and a card that wont be played until really late game vs control. Think twice on the other hand lets you play it turn 2, and then turn 3 so its not dead in the early game and most likly wont even see a counter in the counter control. At the same time it is gaining you valuable tempo while not hurting you at all or giving your opponant a chance to fry you.
T2
BGU Dredge
I have. As I've said a couple times now, it's better than people give it credit for, and that wasn't based just on reading it. It's a good way to draw into that MT that's been eluding you, or that hard counter you've needed while a Rune Snag's been set uselessly at 2, cycle the Repeal or Last Gasp or Spell Snare that's had no target, find the Desert or Storageland that's going to save you (or lose one that won't)... and so on. Picking which four cards out of eight you want to keep is pretty massive filtering, and helps set up the resolved Dralnu, which in turn lets you reuse all the cards you discarded anyway. It's not a must-have for the deck, but it's not nearly as useless as you keep saying.
Possibly the last remaining member of the Banana Clan (+1)
Banana of the Month Feb '05
Cool stuff here.
T2
BGU Dredge
I'm a pompous 15 year old. Not gonna lie. The only proof I have of me being a good player is that I beat up on lesser players at mss's and hook my crew up with decks which they win with. I'm getting better though so I expect to be getting actual acheivments like T8ing ptqs, regionals, and Day 2ing gp (I have my eyes on montreal). I know what I'm talking about. When I feel like typing a lot I write lengthy arguments based on results and reason. Usually what I argue for is incredibly obvious and is backed up by many tournaments and then people present ridiculous arguments with nothing backing themselves up and it makes me sad.
Surging Chaos: Everyone I've ever met ever has liked me as a person so it must be you (and the rest of the thread).
4 Teachings is a must. You want to draw one nearly every game, and in control matches your chances on winning vastly increase if you draw multiples. If I need to explain this then :-(.
Careful Consideration: Slow vs aggro, clunky vs control. Have fun tapping out for ca or getting your spell countered.
Well, first off I'd like to say that if you assume you can easily play Mystical Teachings, Careful Consideration can't be that hard either.
As for what to take out, well, that's the tricky part. The reason I hadn't been running it for a while was exactly because I couldn't figure that out, but with the idea of 4 Remand, 3 MT, 2 CC, I'm going to try again.
@SRdude: You're either good or you're not, you can't be both. And if you think your decisions are perfect just because you made them, well... why do you even come to a discussion thread? Last, if you don't feel like typing out your reasons for thinking something, don't post at all. Basic rule.
Edited out an unnecessary attack against another poster
Possibly the last remaining member of the Banana Clan (+1)
Banana of the Month Feb '05
Cool stuff here.
Functionally, it would seem to expand the "toolbox" nature of the deck, as it could fetch and be fetched by Mystical Teachings. To extend the toolbox, single copies of 4 cc spells (non-instant) such as a Damnation and a Persecute could be included maindeck. Furthermore, Clutch of the Undercity could be used as a regular bounce spell against the storage lands and Karoos. Lastly, it could double as a win condition by dealing 3 damage - not too bad when flashed with Dralnu.
Here's a sample decklist to get things started:
1 Dralnu, Lich Lord
1 Skeletal Vampire
1 Tidespout Tyrant
4 Mystical Teachings
3 Clutch of the Undercity
1 Sudden Death
1 Damnation
1 Persecute
1 Cancel
3 Spell Snare
4 Rewind
4 Mana Leak
4 Remand
4 Think Twice
4 Dreadship Reef
4 Watery Grave
4 Underground River
8 Island
As for the Tidespout Tyrant, it has been doing some rediculous things in testing, turning around many nigh unwinnable board positions. I used Jester's Cap (Triscuit-Tron sideboard) against a Dralnu deck to remove all Teferi's and Dralnu, yet Tidespout hit the table with counter back-up and it still won. Even though I had Wrath of God in hand, a flashable Think Twice was trumping.
Does anyone have any thoughts and/or experience with Clutch of the Undercity?
I cant believe you are actually arguing that mystical teachings and Careful consideration are the same at all. First, you can play teachings twice, so if it gets countered so what? Second, and most importantly, MYSTICAL TEACHINGS ACCOMPLISHES SOMETHING. Wow, its true but mystical teachihngs gets your win conditions or a relevent counterspell. Careful consideration? Not effectivly.
I dont hate you...dont lump me in with the rest of this thread. (remember, most of the them dont play remand)
T2
BGU Dredge
Here to help us have someone to complain about maybe. Seems to me you're just bored and like stirring arguments that won't get you in trouble because rude and egotistical is tolerated.
On to a real topic, I had some really good games against Dragonstorm. I've almost decided that deck only beats itself. You can do everything right and lose. You can do very little right and win. Obviously its still worth giving yourself the best chance, but don't beat yourself up about losing to it. I had them down to 3 life, Teferi on board, no hand. They draw into Slight of Hand, Telling Time, , Dragonstorm with enough mana to cast it. This is after a couple turns earlier I already had a turn with 2! Rewinds, a Remand, and a Rune Snag ealier in the game on DS and 3 copies. I still think its a good matchup, but when they get the nuts or top deck the nuts, you won't stop them.
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Brain Freeze is the coolest card ever printed.
Now...
Edited out a bunch of unnecessary attacks against another poster. Troll infraction issued
SRdude does come off as a little pompous, but he really does know what he's talking about, and gives some good advice. People in this thread need to not take his "attitude" so personal, it's just how someone posts on the internet, it's not a big deal.
What does this have to do with Dralnu? Spam infraction issued
I'm not going to argue the uses of CC anymore because it's fairly clear you refuse to hear them, but my point was that it's exactly as easy to cast MT (a 4 mana blue instant) as CC (a 4 mana blue instant), so dismissing CC as 'hard to cast' while embracing 4x MT is illogical.
Possibly the last remaining member of the Banana Clan (+1)
Banana of the Month Feb '05
Cool stuff here.
This post adds nothing to this thread. Warning issued
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Think is a great, and you damn near always want it. Sometimes it's because the other guy is doing nothing, other times it's because you're letting him do something to set up the Damnation/Soul. Either way, you want a quick draw spell. The best part is, Think sits in your graveyard during control mirrors. Since you're probably discarding down to 7, this makes it great for rebuilding after a counter war. I'm dead serious when I say that Think Twice is probably the best card draw spell in a Dralnu deck.
Careful Consideration is similarly an AWSOME card. If you're trading 1-1 all day long (and that's a key part of your strategy), eventually you'll run out of juice, and it'll come down to who topdecks better. When that happens, Teachings is no better than a random counter, since generally that's what teachings finds. Consideration on the other hand draws you 4 new cards. Yeah, there's a discard factor... but unless you're doing something stupid like playing Consideration on the EOT step of turn 4, the discard shouldn't hurt much.
I'm not so fond of mystical teachings. They're not as good early on as think twice. Mid-game they're generally better than Consideration, but late game I usually prefer Consideration. Four is DEFINATELY a mistake, and I'm on the verge of dropping the 3rd copy as well. Really, if it wasn't for the ability to find Dralnu, there'd be no reason to play Mystical Teachings at all.
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