Quick question: When are people playing ArchAngel Avacyn? I've found that I'm always wanting to keep at least two or one mana open to counter during the second main phase of the opponents turn, which is making it hard to play Avacyn as it taps you out and then they just go "Oh hey, he's tapped out finally. Time to start cranking on removal fun!" Then I'm running damage control on my own turn with a neutered or eliminated avacyn. Not sure if it's a misplay issue or what, but 5 cmc feels a bit heavy for this deck. Albeit, the alternative is to run planar outburst or just go strait declaration in stone as permanent removal.
Of course, my own experience is probably a bit skewed as my last game was playing against a friends casual deck with cards from outside the standard card pool such as pacifism. I need to get some time in with people who actually play standard to get more of a feel of the deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
After some test, I just feel we can't try to go the long game by playing the "draw-go" game, decks with some sort of card draw can outpace us in both field presence and card advantage, the tempo shell is good but is missing a way to close the game on top of curve, so I agree that we should play just a little more agressive, that way by pressuring the opponent we bait removal early, making ojutai's command better late game by recurring a threat from graveyard and gaining life/drawing a card. These are some points I've figured should be considered while deck building:
1. Playing the draw go strategy makes us easily disruptable for a smart opponent since they can always play around our quellers and counters by baiting them and then continue with a sweeper to go to value town (see aintrazi's game against spirits on the scg open)
2. By trying to play our creatures always with flash we tend to play rattlechains just to enable flash in the rest of the cards while not being that bad, we lose value against spot removal which results in rattlechains biting the dust and not getting to flash more creatures
3. playing the super aggro route we are outpaced easily by the better aggro decks or we get sweeped by not letting mana open for counters
Also the toppelgeist and nebelgast herald combination seems good enough it could be very resilient with essence flux, ojutai's command and planar outburst as top to get rid of everything else.
Sorry for the long post just some points I've come around so far hope they Can be somehow useful
After some test, I just feel we can't try to go the long game by playing the "draw-go" game, decks with some sort of card draw can outpace us in both field presence and card advantage, the tempo shell is good but is missing a way to close the game on top of curve, so I agree that we should play just a little more agressive, that way by pressuring the opponent we bait removal early, making ojutai's command better late game by recurring a threat from graveyard and gaining life/drawing a card. These are some points I've figured should be considered while deck building:
1. Playing the draw go strategy makes us easily disruptable for a smart opponent since they can always play around our quellers and counters by baiting them and then continue with a sweeper to go to value town (see aintrazi's game against spirits on the scg open)
2. By trying to play our creatures always with flash we tend to play rattlechains just to enable flash in the rest of the cards while not being that bad, we lose value against spot removal which results in rattlechains biting the dust and not getting to flash more creatures
3. playing the super aggro route we are outpaced easily by the better aggro decks or we get sweeped by not letting mana open for counters
Also the toppelgeist and nebelgast herald combination seems good enough it could be very resilient with essence flux, ojutai's command and planar outburst as top to get rid of everything else.
Sorry for the long post just some points I've come around so far hope they Can be somehow useful
At the top of the curve Archangel Avacyn and EDF are perfectly legitimate game enders. With Essence Flux, you can basically 1 cmc counter a number of cards as long as one mana is open, and since both of the top threats can be flashed in at the end of the opponents turn and their removal suite is mostly sorcery speed, we can avoid a lot of problems if we play it right. The only issues I've had are due to misplays on my own part, such as forgetting flux works on non-spirits and thus negates enchantments like Dead Weight and Pacifism by exiling the card they are attached to.
Looking things over, our best sideboard removal cards that play at sorcery speed we have available are...
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Avacyn is something I hope to send out while having a Mausoleum Wanderer on the field or at least having an Essence Flux in hand to have as a counter to removal, or to flicker a Spell Queller to stop their removal. Ideally, you won't be tapping out to play her.
This is the reason why I play the Midrange shell of the deck-- Tempo is great but lacks game-ending wincons that can cause it to stall in late game and I feel that's the core flaw of it. Midrange gives you more answers to situations that gives you an advantage in Game 1-- and having things like Avacyn or EDF in there give you solid, heavy threats that end the game. If that doesn't work out, then you go into your sideboard and switch your mode of the deck to a more aggressive build or a more control-based build, based on situation.
This is why I propose that if you're going to play Tempo, pack in stuff that makes them solid wincons-- Always Watching, Anafenza, Thunderclap Wyvern, and Borrowed Grace. Using these allows you to be evasive with your damage and pump them up for damage that keeps getting better with each flier you have down, even if they are mere 1/1s or 2/1s. And the cool part of this is that you're not losing much in being able to counter spells-- it just makes Spell Queller a cooler card (just having two of those +1/1 effects on it puts it out of Languish range) and makes your Mausoleum Wanderers essentially Mana Leak Eggs that you can crack at any needed time. And you can still control the field with Nebelgast Herald and flashing in spirits to disable your opponent from going all out on you, which leaves you more free to continue swinging all-in.
This is a very cool deck, and the way that it can be very easily tweaked from Aggro to Midrange to Control makes it extremely versatile. I'm very excited to be playing it.
So what if UW spirits splashed black for Wasteland Strangler? I know it doesn't have flash, but using the card under a Spell Queller or Stasis Snare to kill something seems super powerful.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: UB Control
Modern: UWR Control
EDH: Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Phelddagrif
Glissa, the Traitor
Rosheen Meanderer
I am using Gisela as a finisher seems to be working out fine for me and I like the way she curves the mana out. Thinking about testing Niblis of Frost. Wyvern looks cool as well. I find Avacyn a bit lackluster her flash effect doesn't protect from a languish correct?
All right, back from FNM. Not a very good time, but not because of the deck-- just bad luck.
But before I played FNM, I playtested with someone and their new deck:
vs. B/G Delirium, win 3-0
It was a slow homebrew vs. a tempo deck. No real chance.
FNM Match 1 vs. R/G Hanweir (that's what I'll call it, I guess), lose 0-2
I was absolutely mana flooded both games. Didn't really stand a chance.
Between-match game, vs. U/R Prowess/Burn, win 1
Pretty cool deck, just not very suited toward a bunch of counterspirits.
Match 2, given the bye
During the bye, I found other people to play with.
vs. Bant Company, draw 1-1
It feels like we're pretty evenly matched with Bant Company. This is a good feeling.
vs. B/G Seasons Past (?), draw 1-1
Lots of kill spells and dirty tricks. I don't like Sylvan Advocates at all.
Match 3, vs. R/B Vampires, loss 1-2
Game 1, I was flooded with blue mana and mostly white cards. Didn't feel good-- but some well-timed Unsubstantiates and Spell Quellers gave me time to drop 2 Always Watching, and I turned the game around very quickly.
Games 2 and 3 I just didn't get what I needed at the right times. Felt really bad and ended up being one turn short of winning. Drana is an awful card to deal with.
Notes:
Always Watching is AMAZING. Promoting that to a permanent spot in the mainboard.
Essence Flux is fantastic for flicker tricks. Keeping those in.
Unsubstantiate, despite being essentially a stall card, never, ever felt bad to play. I'm considering running a playset. It's just too versatile to pass on. Don't forget that you can bounce your own creatures if needed. Then if you have the mana, you can flash them right back in!
Reflector Mage always felt rewarding to play and has fantastic synergy with Essence Flux and Unsubstantiate (in late game at least). He's not the best fighter, but he's a good blocker and being able to debilitate the board state is golden.
Thalia felt bad. I'm glad I didn't buy any of her to go with the promo one I won. She's pretty, but way too easily hated out to be worth anything.
I never had too many chances to play Mausoleum Wanderer for its ability, but the time I did, it saved the game. Very nice.
Kind of torn on Avacyn. 5 mana cost is kind of a rough play. She's a fantastic card, especially when safe from Grasp of Darkness or Languish when Always Watching is out, but as much as I love her to pieces, I'm not sold on her being in there. Maybe as a 1-of or keep both in the sideboard?
Next time I think I may bring my more aggressive build. Always Watching always felt GREAT to play, so maybe throwing in Anafenza, Thunderclap Wyvern, and Borrowed Grace could be very rewarding. Play Tempo Control until you can just swing really hard in the air with pumped spirits.
So the deck can change from aggro to tempo to midrange/control and this change can even be pulled off on side boarding. My question: has anybody figured out for any matchup what style works better? Against Seasons Past for example, do I want 34 threats and 4 Negate or whatever, or 20 threats plus high end stuff and assorted spells? Do I want card draw or just more aggression? Or something else?
Has anybody for any matchup determined one approach is better than another?
In my case I'm concerned to figure out BW walkers/Angels.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
Game 1 was vs black/white control. The matchup seems 55/45 in our favor. The biggest issue was the manlands. I mained 4 negate from the go and I doubt I'll ever remove them. I opened game 1 on the play with Maus Wan followed by selfless spirit turn two. SPell queller ate Liliana, rattlechains fizzled the removal and Sorin was stopped by Negate. I then flashed thunderclap wyvern for lethal before he could come back.
Game two, I got beat by manlands while flooded. Had a decent start but only saw 6 spells. Game three had the same opening as game one. Nebelgast tapped Giselda, Sorin was played the following turn, but I tapped the angel again and ignored him. Lethal.
Game 2 was against bant humans. I thought it would be a tough matchup but I went 2-0. Spellqueller ate tireless tracker. Next creature stuck, got tapped by nebelgast then rattlechains turned reflector mage into a two color hill giant. When I attacked with 2 mana up, he cast collected company to try and find blockers, which was met with negate. I guess most lists don't run it so he didn't see it coming. One clash of wills later I had lethal. Game two. Turn 1 Maus wan. Turn 2 selfless spirit, he played Sylvan advocate( his first two lands came into play tapped) I tapped it with nebelgast the next turn. He played thalia, I tapped her next . Then he played a spellqueller so he could block. I tapped it by casting rattlechains when he tried to play Dromoka's command, and gave my selfless spirit hexproof. I was winning the race at that point so the queller was all I tapped. Rattlechains turne reflector mage into a hill giant again. The he cast aerial volley, which is amazing tech against spirits. Never saw it coming. Thankfully, it was his 2nd spell, so clash of wills stopped it, and that was game. We played a 3rd game for fun, but I won it hands down as well.
Game 3 was vs Demonic offering combo.
Game 1. I opened with two lands a few 2 mana spells, spell queller and anticipate. But I never saw my 3rd land until turn 6. Still put up a fight though.
Game 2. Got some damage in and lost creatures due to my opponent's deck being mainly removal draw and the combo. But since most of my creatures have flash and rattlechains can stop some of the removal. They always dealt some damage before dying. He resolved demonic pact. Drew 2 cards, then targetted selfless spirit with the "deal 4 gain 4" ability, since he didn't want me to sac it to save rattlechains (I had nothing else on the board.) But I sacced it, and he gained no life. He then had me discard 2 cards, I picked ojutai's command and clash of wills. By that point he was at two life, EoT I flashed rattlechains for game.
Game 3. Irealized I could just ignore his combo, and just use my disruption to protect my creatures and aggro him. So I side in turn aside and confirm sucpicions as well as unsubstanciate. Worked like a charm. At one point in the last turns, he cast demonic pact which I threw spell queller at. Then he responded with grasp of darkness, targetting spell queller. I cast Ojutai's command, returning rattlechains to the battlefield, hexproofing SQ and giving me lethal next turn.
I definitely still don't want Avacyn in there. The mana is just too tight. I don't want reflector mage either since I just tap problematic creatures, which so far is only Gisela or a sylvan advocate with 6 lands behind it.
I'm on the fence about Thuinderclap wyvern. It gave me games by producing lethal out of nowhere. But I don,t know if another card would have helped more earlier. I'll go down to two, then test with none.
And yeah. Topplegeist, as I said before would be horrible here.
21 creatures
27 land
15 spells
63 cards.
Is this right?
I agree topple is not suited to your list. I like it in a 30 creature 22 land 8 spell kind of list where you want to make sure you can always attack because you'll lose the late game. They land Gisella, pass, you Topple her, swing, pass, flux Topple again, Untap, lethal following a damage curve of 20-19-16-11-6-0.
Without TGeist that speed is unlikely and they have more time to mount a defense, but you have more and bigger spells to oppose that, so there's the trade off.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
Spell queller is broken!!!! I casted him three turn in a row to counter three languishes. It was too funny.
My favorite thing about this deck is you are always hold mana for a counter spell. If you don't play your counter you just flash in a sport and take your turn.
21 creatures
27 land
15 spells
63 cards.
Is this right?
I agree topple is not suited to your list. I like it in a 30 creature 22 land 8 spell kind of list where you want to make sure you can always attack because you'll lose the late game. They land Gisella, pass, you Topple her, swing, pass, flux Topple again, Untap, lethal following a damage curve of 20-19-16-11-6-0.
Without TGeist that speed is unlikely and they have more time to mount a defense, but you have more and bigger spells to oppose that, so there's the trade off.
Sorry,there was a typo on the plains count. And I had decided to run 4 selfless spirit rather than 3 at the last minute.
The thing is. even if you run a less aggro build( you'll always have some aggro with a bunch of cheap flashy fliyers) they'll quickly realize that you're attacing every turn. Most players respond to that by trying to kill your guys, which the deck is good at stopping. If they just focus on getting more threats in play, you can clash of wills or tap them with nebelgast and still win the race. So you're kind of covered both ways Lumbering falls can be a problem however. But even without T. Geist, neblegast gives you 3 taps on average, added to the existing ability of your spirit.
I only beat lumbering falls by racing too fast for my opponent, and forcing him to use his mana to try and stop me rather than activating it.
The toughest choices involve chosing when to flash to tap a creature early game, or keep your mana open. On one hand, you absolutely need to race, on the other, you can't be caught with no mana up.
I had something awfully close to Feng's list together already, but am I crazy for wanting to splash a little green for CoCo and Dromoka's Command? Command helps against mono white a lot (getting rid of always watching was a great boon) Lumbering Falls is always nice to have against control decks and CoCo hits every spirit (and reflector mage).
I had something awfully close to Feng's list together already, but am I crazy for wanting to splash a little green for CoCo and Dromoka's Command? Command helps against mono white a lot (getting rid of always watching was a great boon) Lumbering Falls is always nice to have against control decks and CoCo hits every spirit (and reflector mage).
I don't think you are crazy to want it. Spirits can work with Coco just as well as O-Command, it just depends on what kind of two for one deal you want. In many cases, Ojutai's command does exactly what coco would do when dealing with Spirits thanks to the extra mode, just it doesn't give the extra spirit. With Coco you also are gambling a bit on what specific creatures you will pull from the pile, where as O-command you basically know what is in the yard and what second mode you may want to pick from the list.
So are we bending more towards a mid-range deck now as the optimal solution for UW spirits? I'm getting mixed messages from this thread on what the best build to use is, especially since some lists are running Avacyn, while others are running Thunderclap Wyvern.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Maybe I just had a string of bad luck. I should try my Midrange version again before going all-out offensive tempo with pump spells and pseudo-lords/Always Watching.
Had lots of fun with the deck, and ended up 3-1. This was my first time playing many of these cards, so I felt like I spent a lot of the early rounds trying learn exactly what they do.
Round 1 vs. Mono-Red Aggro 0-2
A fairly grindy match, I think I actual have a decent match up, but felt like I wasn't drawing too well in either game. Both games pretty much came down to seeing who could land lethal damage. Exquisite Firecraft with spell mastery ended up being the game breaker although I was able to fend it off a bit with Spell Queller and Unsubstantiate.
Round 2 vs. G/B Midrange 2-0
My opponent had a tough time getting his deck off the ground with some pretty bad draws. This spirits deck really punishes opponents who stumble, if it gets ahead early it can pretty much lock them out.
Round 3 vs. R/G Zada/Silverfur/Cryptolith Combo 2-1
Game 1 my opponent utterly crushed me. I didn't really know what his deck was trying to do and he was able to go nuts, making a million hasty, giant wolves.
Once I understood the matchup, I focused my plan on keeping Silverfur and Zada off the board and had a much easier time of it. Declaration in Stone was really good here. If you have a clear idea of your opponents win conditions, Spirits really allows you to sit back and punish them when they go for it.
Round 4 vs. G/B Delirium 2-0
Again focused on opponents win condition, making sure Ishkanah didn't hit the battlefield, and punished him for stumbling on mana.
A few thoughts:
Avacyn and Deep-Fiend didn't see much play and felt a bit win-more. I'll probably keep Avacyn, but either drop Deep-Fiend or move to the sideboard.
Anticipate was the card I sided out most often as it is the one main deck card that doesn't impact the board. It may also need to move to the sideboard. Will probably consider starting Declaration In Stone and Negate instead of Anticipate and Elder Deep-Fiend.
Unsubstantiate was indeed very good, especially with helping me to catch up or get control of the board when I was on the draw. A common sequence for me was Unsubstantiate my opponent's turn 3 play and then Spell Queller when they try to re-cast.
I didn't have a lot situations where I wanted to play Essence Flux. Doesn't mean it's bad here, just wasn't relevant in my particular match ups.
I haven't been able to play against Humans or Bant so far, so I don't really know what to expect there.
a) People assumed that people would be prepared for spirits, and chose to play something else, resulting in less representation.
b) Jeff hoogland, iirc, was the only spirit deck on stream last week, in spite of it being over 15% of the top tables.
Still looking to figure out the deck speed question. Only answer I've seen so far is that we cannot control a late game Lumbering Falls (supposing Advocates around because otherwise Avacyn and EDF would be easy answers). This means Planar Cleansing is not the approach to beating Bant Coco builds.
Avacyn and EDF are not simply win-more. If you are already wining, then sure win more with them. But Avacyn is also the don't lose blocking card, and the turnaround sweep card. EDF is the stop them running you over card, and the tempo swing either in terms of damage race or spells cast card. Neither is great when you're out of creatures, but that shouldn't happen.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
I am having a rough time against G/B lists that run new lily and languish anyone have any advice for these matchups? currently my play is bring in always watching and imprisoned in the moon but still seem to win less of these matches then I lose. I am feeling great about pretty much every other match up however deck feels really solid.
I am having a rough time against G/B lists that run new lily and languish anyone have any advice for these matchups? currently my play is bring in always watching and imprisoned in the moon but still seem to win less of these matches then I lose. I am feeling great about pretty much every other match up however deck feels really solid.
Lili is the reason I've been experimenting with Imprisoned in the Moon and Tandem Tactics. Imprisoned in the Moon is very similar to an EDH card I play with in my elf deck and can work wonders against decks that don't have a lot of enchantment removal in them, such as G/B Delirium. Turning their liliana into a colorless land basically neuters their ability to use languish, and with cards like Always Watching, we can get out of languish range relatively easily with Archangel Avacyn. Another card that helps is Eerie Interlude. They play languish, we warp out to let their effect resolve and then return at the end step, likely with a herald forcing a bunch of their creatures to get tapped along with Anafenza, Kin-tree spirit going bolster 1 happy.
In any case, our deck has a lot of answers to languish, we just haven't been mainboarding because the primary target of our ire has been bant coco up to this point. I was previously suspecting we'd see liliana hit the floor running with delirium / zombie builds later on this season so hence the think-tank work done earlier.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I am having a rough time against G/B lists that run new lily and languish anyone have any advice for these matchups? currently my play is bring in always watching and imprisoned in the moon but still seem to win less of these matches then I lose. I am feeling great about pretty much every other match up however deck feels really solid.
First always leave three mana open.. Must
2 blue and 1 white is ideal..
You should have tons of ways to counter her, once is lands then I have found spirts are in a lot of trouble.
But here is the cards to keep her off.
Clash of wills
Scatter to the winds
Negate
Spell queller
If she lands.... Imprisoned in the moon
I feel this spirt deck has to be built around counter magic to be strong.
Hey Matsuri, what did you side out to fit the Always Watching main deck? My own version already axed thalia for another Reflector Mage, but otherwise is basically a carbon copy of your build with a different sideboard.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Of course, my own experience is probably a bit skewed as my last game was playing against a friends casual deck with cards from outside the standard card pool such as pacifism. I need to get some time in with people who actually play standard to get more of a feel of the deck.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1. Playing the draw go strategy makes us easily disruptable for a smart opponent since they can always play around our quellers and counters by baiting them and then continue with a sweeper to go to value town (see aintrazi's game against spirits on the scg open)
2. By trying to play our creatures always with flash we tend to play rattlechains just to enable flash in the rest of the cards while not being that bad, we lose value against spot removal which results in rattlechains biting the dust and not getting to flash more creatures
3. playing the super aggro route we are outpaced easily by the better aggro decks or we get sweeped by not letting mana open for counters
Also the toppelgeist and nebelgast herald combination seems good enough it could be very resilient with essence flux, ojutai's command and planar outburst as top to get rid of everything else.
Sorry for the long post just some points I've come around so far hope they Can be somehow useful
At the top of the curve Archangel Avacyn and EDF are perfectly legitimate game enders. With Essence Flux, you can basically 1 cmc counter a number of cards as long as one mana is open, and since both of the top threats can be flashed in at the end of the opponents turn and their removal suite is mostly sorcery speed, we can avoid a lot of problems if we play it right. The only issues I've had are due to misplays on my own part, such as forgetting flux works on non-spirits and thus negates enchantments like Dead Weight and Pacifism by exiling the card they are attached to.
Looking things over, our best sideboard removal cards that play at sorcery speed we have available are...
1. Imprisoned in the Moon for walkers, odd lands, and creatures.
2. Collective Effort for enchantment removal unless we want Fate Forgotten
3. Declaration in Stone for WW.
4. Displacement Wave for tokens.
Sideboard options for other match ups...
1.Hallowed Moonlight for Collected Company and tokens.
For getting card draw on long games I think everyone has their own idea on what to use to accomplish this. Options include...
1.Bygone Bishop
2.Ongoing Investigation
3.Anticipate
4.Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This is the reason why I play the Midrange shell of the deck-- Tempo is great but lacks game-ending wincons that can cause it to stall in late game and I feel that's the core flaw of it. Midrange gives you more answers to situations that gives you an advantage in Game 1-- and having things like Avacyn or EDF in there give you solid, heavy threats that end the game. If that doesn't work out, then you go into your sideboard and switch your mode of the deck to a more aggressive build or a more control-based build, based on situation.
This is why I propose that if you're going to play Tempo, pack in stuff that makes them solid wincons-- Always Watching, Anafenza, Thunderclap Wyvern, and Borrowed Grace. Using these allows you to be evasive with your damage and pump them up for damage that keeps getting better with each flier you have down, even if they are mere 1/1s or 2/1s. And the cool part of this is that you're not losing much in being able to counter spells-- it just makes Spell Queller a cooler card (just having two of those +1/1 effects on it puts it out of Languish range) and makes your Mausoleum Wanderers essentially Mana Leak Eggs that you can crack at any needed time. And you can still control the field with Nebelgast Herald and flashing in spirits to disable your opponent from going all out on you, which leaves you more free to continue swinging all-in.
This is a very cool deck, and the way that it can be very easily tweaked from Aggro to Midrange to Control makes it extremely versatile. I'm very excited to be playing it.
WB Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim | WBR Queen Marchesa | WUBR Breya, Etherium Shaper
Modern:
/ Death and Taxes | W/ Soul Sisters | Spirits | U Faeries | Tempered Steel Affinity
Modern: UWR Control
EDH: Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Phelddagrif
Glissa, the Traitor
Rosheen Meanderer
RIP Jimmy foREVer
But before I played FNM, I playtested with someone and their new deck:
vs. B/G Delirium, win 3-0
It was a slow homebrew vs. a tempo deck. No real chance.
FNM Match 1 vs. R/G Hanweir (that's what I'll call it, I guess), lose 0-2
I was absolutely mana flooded both games. Didn't really stand a chance.
Between-match game, vs. U/R Prowess/Burn, win 1
Pretty cool deck, just not very suited toward a bunch of counterspirits.
Match 2, given the bye
During the bye, I found other people to play with.
vs. Bant Company, draw 1-1
It feels like we're pretty evenly matched with Bant Company. This is a good feeling.
vs. B/G Seasons Past (?), draw 1-1
Lots of kill spells and dirty tricks. I don't like Sylvan Advocates at all.
Match 3, vs. R/B Vampires, loss 1-2
Game 1, I was flooded with blue mana and mostly white cards. Didn't feel good-- but some well-timed Unsubstantiates and Spell Quellers gave me time to drop 2 Always Watching, and I turned the game around very quickly.
Games 2 and 3 I just didn't get what I needed at the right times. Felt really bad and ended up being one turn short of winning. Drana is an awful card to deal with.
Notes:
Next time I think I may bring my more aggressive build. Always Watching always felt GREAT to play, so maybe throwing in Anafenza, Thunderclap Wyvern, and Borrowed Grace could be very rewarding. Play Tempo Control until you can just swing really hard in the air with pumped spirits.
WB Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim | WBR Queen Marchesa | WUBR Breya, Etherium Shaper
Modern:
/ Death and Taxes | W/ Soul Sisters | Spirits | U Faeries | Tempered Steel Affinity
Has anybody for any matchup determined one approach is better than another?
In my case I'm concerned to figure out BW walkers/Angels.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
4 rattlechains
3 nebelgast herald
4 spell queller
4 selfless spirit
3 thunderclap wyvern
4 negate
2 Anticipate
2 Ojutai's command
2 horribly awry
3 Clash of wills
2 immolating glare
4 Prairie stream
11 island
5 plains
4 unsubstantiate
4 planar outburst
1 Hallowed moonlight
3 expose evil
2 turn aside
1 confirm suspicions
Went undefeated.
Game 1 was vs black/white control. The matchup seems 55/45 in our favor. The biggest issue was the manlands. I mained 4 negate from the go and I doubt I'll ever remove them. I opened game 1 on the play with Maus Wan followed by selfless spirit turn two. SPell queller ate Liliana, rattlechains fizzled the removal and Sorin was stopped by Negate. I then flashed thunderclap wyvern for lethal before he could come back.
Game two, I got beat by manlands while flooded. Had a decent start but only saw 6 spells. Game three had the same opening as game one. Nebelgast tapped Giselda, Sorin was played the following turn, but I tapped the angel again and ignored him. Lethal.
Game 2 was against bant humans. I thought it would be a tough matchup but I went 2-0. Spellqueller ate tireless tracker. Next creature stuck, got tapped by nebelgast then rattlechains turned reflector mage into a two color hill giant. When I attacked with 2 mana up, he cast collected company to try and find blockers, which was met with negate. I guess most lists don't run it so he didn't see it coming. One clash of wills later I had lethal. Game two. Turn 1 Maus wan. Turn 2 selfless spirit, he played Sylvan advocate( his first two lands came into play tapped) I tapped it with nebelgast the next turn. He played thalia, I tapped her next . Then he played a spellqueller so he could block. I tapped it by casting rattlechains when he tried to play Dromoka's command, and gave my selfless spirit hexproof. I was winning the race at that point so the queller was all I tapped. Rattlechains turne reflector mage into a hill giant again. The he cast aerial volley, which is amazing tech against spirits. Never saw it coming. Thankfully, it was his 2nd spell, so clash of wills stopped it, and that was game. We played a 3rd game for fun, but I won it hands down as well.
Game 3 was vs Demonic offering combo.
Game 1. I opened with two lands a few 2 mana spells, spell queller and anticipate. But I never saw my 3rd land until turn 6. Still put up a fight though.
Game 2. Got some damage in and lost creatures due to my opponent's deck being mainly removal draw and the combo. But since most of my creatures have flash and rattlechains can stop some of the removal. They always dealt some damage before dying. He resolved demonic pact. Drew 2 cards, then targetted selfless spirit with the "deal 4 gain 4" ability, since he didn't want me to sac it to save rattlechains (I had nothing else on the board.) But I sacced it, and he gained no life. He then had me discard 2 cards, I picked ojutai's command and clash of wills. By that point he was at two life, EoT I flashed rattlechains for game.
Game 3. Irealized I could just ignore his combo, and just use my disruption to protect my creatures and aggro him. So I side in turn aside and confirm sucpicions as well as unsubstanciate. Worked like a charm. At one point in the last turns, he cast demonic pact which I threw spell queller at. Then he responded with grasp of darkness, targetting spell queller. I cast Ojutai's command, returning rattlechains to the battlefield, hexproofing SQ and giving me lethal next turn.
I definitely still don't want Avacyn in there. The mana is just too tight. I don't want reflector mage either since I just tap problematic creatures, which so far is only Gisela or a sylvan advocate with 6 lands behind it.
I'm on the fence about Thuinderclap wyvern. It gave me games by producing lethal out of nowhere. But I don,t know if another card would have helped more earlier. I'll go down to two, then test with none.
And yeah. Topplegeist, as I said before would be horrible here.
27 land
15 spells
63 cards.
Is this right?
I agree topple is not suited to your list. I like it in a 30 creature 22 land 8 spell kind of list where you want to make sure you can always attack because you'll lose the late game. They land Gisella, pass, you Topple her, swing, pass, flux Topple again, Untap, lethal following a damage curve of 20-19-16-11-6-0.
Without TGeist that speed is unlikely and they have more time to mount a defense, but you have more and bigger spells to oppose that, so there's the trade off.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
Spell queller is broken!!!! I casted him three turn in a row to counter three languishes. It was too funny.
My favorite thing about this deck is you are always hold mana for a counter spell. If you don't play your counter you just flash in a sport and take your turn.
Best deck since jeskai black...
Here ya go....
creatures
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Rattlechains
4 Selfless Spirt
4 Spell Queller
4 Reflector Mage
2 Archangel Avacyn
spells
3 Clash of Wills
2 Stasis Snare
2 Ojutai's Command
2 Declaration in Stone
1 Scatter to the Winds
1 Negate
1 Anticipate
1 Imprisoned in the Moon
land
4 Prairie Stream
4 Port Town
8 Island
8 Plains
1 Meandering River
sideboard
4 Essence Flux
3 Bygone Bishop
2 Unsubstantiate
2 Planar Outburst
2 Nebelgast Herald
1 Blessed Alliance
Sorry,there was a typo on the plains count. And I had decided to run 4 selfless spirit rather than 3 at the last minute.
The thing is. even if you run a less aggro build( you'll always have some aggro with a bunch of cheap flashy fliyers) they'll quickly realize that you're attacing every turn. Most players respond to that by trying to kill your guys, which the deck is good at stopping. If they just focus on getting more threats in play, you can clash of wills or tap them with nebelgast and still win the race. So you're kind of covered both ways Lumbering falls can be a problem however. But even without T. Geist, neblegast gives you 3 taps on average, added to the existing ability of your spirit.
I only beat lumbering falls by racing too fast for my opponent, and forcing him to use his mana to try and stop me rather than activating it.
The toughest choices involve chosing when to flash to tap a creature early game, or keep your mana open. On one hand, you absolutely need to race, on the other, you can't be caught with no mana up.
I don't think you are crazy to want it. Spirits can work with Coco just as well as O-Command, it just depends on what kind of two for one deal you want. In many cases, Ojutai's command does exactly what coco would do when dealing with Spirits thanks to the extra mode, just it doesn't give the extra spirit. With Coco you also are gambling a bit on what specific creatures you will pull from the pile, where as O-command you basically know what is in the yard and what second mode you may want to pick from the list.
So are we bending more towards a mid-range deck now as the optimal solution for UW spirits? I'm getting mixed messages from this thread on what the best build to use is, especially since some lists are running Avacyn, while others are running Thunderclap Wyvern.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
WB Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim | WBR Queen Marchesa | WUBR Breya, Etherium Shaper
Modern:
/ Death and Taxes | W/ Soul Sisters | Spirits | U Faeries | Tempered Steel Affinity
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Rattlechains
4 Selfless Spirit
4 Nebelgast Herald
4 Spell Queller
2 Archangel Avacyn
2 Elder Deep-Fiend
Spells (12)
2 Essence Flux
2 Unsubstantiate
2 Anticipate
2 Clash of Wills
2 Stasis Snare
2 Ojutai's Command
4 Prairie Stream
4 Port Town
9 Island
7 Plains
2 Hallowed Moonlight
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Bygone Bishop
2 Planar Outburst
2 Negate
1 Confirm Suspicions
2 Summary Dismissal
Had lots of fun with the deck, and ended up 3-1. This was my first time playing many of these cards, so I felt like I spent a lot of the early rounds trying learn exactly what they do.
Round 1 vs. Mono-Red Aggro 0-2
A fairly grindy match, I think I actual have a decent match up, but felt like I wasn't drawing too well in either game. Both games pretty much came down to seeing who could land lethal damage. Exquisite Firecraft with spell mastery ended up being the game breaker although I was able to fend it off a bit with Spell Queller and Unsubstantiate.
Round 2 vs. G/B Midrange 2-0
My opponent had a tough time getting his deck off the ground with some pretty bad draws. This spirits deck really punishes opponents who stumble, if it gets ahead early it can pretty much lock them out.
Round 3 vs. R/G Zada/Silverfur/Cryptolith Combo 2-1
Game 1 my opponent utterly crushed me. I didn't really know what his deck was trying to do and he was able to go nuts, making a million hasty, giant wolves.
Once I understood the matchup, I focused my plan on keeping Silverfur and Zada off the board and had a much easier time of it. Declaration in Stone was really good here. If you have a clear idea of your opponents win conditions, Spirits really allows you to sit back and punish them when they go for it.
Round 4 vs. G/B Delirium 2-0
Again focused on opponents win condition, making sure Ishkanah didn't hit the battlefield, and punished him for stumbling on mana.
A few thoughts:
Avacyn and Deep-Fiend didn't see much play and felt a bit win-more. I'll probably keep Avacyn, but either drop Deep-Fiend or move to the sideboard.
Anticipate was the card I sided out most often as it is the one main deck card that doesn't impact the board. It may also need to move to the sideboard. Will probably consider starting Declaration In Stone and Negate instead of Anticipate and Elder Deep-Fiend.
Unsubstantiate was indeed very good, especially with helping me to catch up or get control of the board when I was on the draw. A common sequence for me was Unsubstantiate my opponent's turn 3 play and then Spell Queller when they try to re-cast.
I didn't have a lot situations where I wanted to play Essence Flux. Doesn't mean it's bad here, just wasn't relevant in my particular match ups.
I haven't been able to play against Humans or Bant so far, so I don't really know what to expect there.
Something has gone horribly wrong.
a) People assumed that people would be prepared for spirits, and chose to play something else, resulting in less representation.
b) Jeff hoogland, iirc, was the only spirit deck on stream last week, in spite of it being over 15% of the top tables.
Avacyn and EDF are not simply win-more. If you are already wining, then sure win more with them. But Avacyn is also the don't lose blocking card, and the turnaround sweep card. EDF is the stop them running you over card, and the tempo swing either in terms of damage race or spells cast card. Neither is great when you're out of creatures, but that shouldn't happen.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
Lili is the reason I've been experimenting with Imprisoned in the Moon and Tandem Tactics. Imprisoned in the Moon is very similar to an EDH card I play with in my elf deck and can work wonders against decks that don't have a lot of enchantment removal in them, such as G/B Delirium. Turning their liliana into a colorless land basically neuters their ability to use languish, and with cards like Always Watching, we can get out of languish range relatively easily with Archangel Avacyn. Another card that helps is Eerie Interlude. They play languish, we warp out to let their effect resolve and then return at the end step, likely with a herald forcing a bunch of their creatures to get tapped along with Anafenza, Kin-tree spirit going bolster 1 happy.
In any case, our deck has a lot of answers to languish, we just haven't been mainboarding because the primary target of our ire has been bant coco up to this point. I was previously suspecting we'd see liliana hit the floor running with delirium / zombie builds later on this season so hence the think-tank work done earlier.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
First always leave three mana open.. Must
2 blue and 1 white is ideal..
You should have tons of ways to counter her, once is lands then I have found spirts are in a lot of trouble.
But here is the cards to keep her off.
Clash of wills
Scatter to the winds
Negate
Spell queller
If she lands.... Imprisoned in the moon
I feel this spirt deck has to be built around counter magic to be strong.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!