I haven't posted in a few weeks cause I haven't had much chance to test with the deck, and I lost horribly last friday at FNM, Boros and Haste Green, and I had only 1 damnation, so I lost pretty badly, and the green deck had greater good so the seize the soul in the sideboard to replace the damnations were just really expensive kill cards.
two cards I'm really likeing are Soul spike and roiling horror (against control obviously), I can't believe I was using midnight charm while soul spike was available, it's just so much better. And along with roiling horror, it can be a real beast, good example is a gam I just played against a megrim deck (not tier 1, but proves my point), he has wheel of fate suspended at 2, I play the horror for 2, then next turn I consume for 3, lose 4 life from megire+wheel, then draw into a spike for his barbed shocker, so the horror comes into play as a 10/10, hits, and then it's a 20/20, seems pretty strong.
I'm still prefering haakon, I've hit a lot of decks with a lot of removal, and nearly everytime it dies, it's to something that would kill a skeletal vampire. And it goes pretty well with Loxodon warhammer, which I think is better than consume, costs 6 colourless mana to equip on the same turn, and then usually hits for 5-6, which makes it more efficient, and does it over and over, and comes down earlier, and it can be used to block.
Edit: The more I play with spike, the more I love it, it has won me so many games, and it makes me more than happy to drop a second or third arena since I can usually draw into one (or two, or three) and drop the extra cards I'm drawing to do that last 4 damage or counter the life loss. The number of times I've gone consume spirit for 5-9, then 1-2 soul spike is crazy, it just wins games, i'm really getting why every red deck plays char, 4 is a lot of damage
Heh, funny you should say that, I was just thinking I would post right about now...
I have been thinking about this whole Soul Spike topic lately, and I think I'm gonna try it out. The most convincing argument I've heard is that it is a use for otherwise dead cards in hand. I have often found that I have decent control of a game, but end up drawing extra Arenas ( I drew all 4 in one game the other day), and extra discard when they have no cards left. I'm gonna try dropping one Totem and one Consume Spirit for 2 Soul Spike, although, I might mess that around and end up dropping a Skelevamp instead of a Totem, or drop one of each and leave it at 4 Consumes. Incidentally, what do you all think is the right balance? I have 10 card slots to spend between Consume, Skelevamp, Totem, and Spike. What is the right mix? I'm thinking 3 Consume, 3 Skelevamp, 2 Totem, 2 Spike.
Anyway, here's the list. Hide / Seek is testing REALLY well...I have loved it against the slower control decks, and it has given me a good matchup against both Tron and Dralnu decks. I encourage anyone even thinking about splashing white to try this list:
Heh, funny you should say that, I was just thinking I would post right about now...
I have been thinking about this whole Soul Spike topic lately, and I think I'm gonna try it out. The most convincing argument I've heard is that it is a use for otherwise dead cards in hand. I have often found that I have decent control of a game, but end up drawing extra Arenas ( I drew all 4 in one game the other day), and extra discard when they have no cards left. I'm gonna try dropping one Totem and one Consume Spirit for 2 Soul Spike, although, I might mess that around and end up dropping a Skelevamp instead of a Totem, or drop one of each and leave it at 4 Consumes. Incidentally, what do you all think is the right balance? I have 10 card slots to spend between Consume, Skelevamp, Totem, and Spike. What is the right mix? I'm thinking 3 Consume, 3 Skelevamp, 2 Totem, 2 Spike.
Anyway, here's the list. Hide / Seek is testing REALLY well...I have loved it against the slower control decks, and it has given me a good matchup against both Tron and Dralnu decks. I encourage anyone even thinking about splashing white to try this list:
My opinion is 3 consumes is a little much, 2 is probably enough (I have 1, but I also have stromgald crusaders and Haakon), 3 spikes is great because a lot of the time you can pitch 1 to the other, and it's not so bad casting it for 7, it costs 1 more than a consume for 4, it's instant, and you can use colourless. How often do you actually cast consume for more than 4-5 unless it's to end the game? My suggestion is 5 slots split between batman and the totem (more bats if you see a lot of burn, more totem for wrath happy meta), 2 for consume, 3 for spike.
Random question about your mana base, is that much white sources really necessary? 12 is a fair bit, and 8 of which hurt you
Edit:nevermind on the manabase, I didn't see all your white on the first pass
Edit2:Should I get a mono-black sig? I've been thinking about it, but i can't think of what I would want in it
Incidentally, what do you all think is the right balance? I have 10 card slots to spend between Consume, Skelevamp, Totem, and Spike. What is the right mix? I'm thinking 3 Consume, 3 Skelevamp, 2 Totem, 2 Spike.
Well I run 3x Consume, 2x Skeletal, 3x Totem, and 2x Spike; but I run straight monoblack, with the guantlets build (not tutor/toolbox) if that helps.
Next time you post popular opinions, please word them in such a way that they're not infractable. Someone may be widely thought to be the dullest tool in the shed, but you can't publicly call him that, which as a mod I can neither confirm nor deny that I fervently believe he's a tool.
SB
3x small pox
3x phyrexian totem
3x imp's mischeif
4x funeral charm or last gasp
2x extirpate
this deck has been play tested extensively
it pretty much consistently eats most decks, it has some problems with dralnu but pretty much after the persecute resolves with the help of mischeif dralnu pretty much chumps, plus main decking 4 extirpates pretty much hoses that deck
however, it has a HUGE problem with hasto mono green. the funeral charms havent been tested yet but second turn groundbreaker does a number on this deck, not to mention capt tickles and other hasty fellas rip it apart before it can stabalize
this deck ripps up boros, almost any other aggro archetype, and most control, although im just not sure what it can do about mono green, its way too fast. id like to hear some other sb suggestions (and please dont say SLAY or ill slap u in the face). Thanks!
Private Mod Note
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NYC DARK KNIGHTS cred to perv 90210 for the incredible sig.
White vs Green splash for g2.??? non splash at all?? other colors??
Pros and Cons of each???
White. Can bring Mortify, Disenchant, more ***, Faith's Fetters and Sacred Ground. Also Calciderm!!!
Green can bring putrefy (which is great against Mirror), Life from the Loam (idk we have just a few win conditions) and Krosan Grip, Seal of cleansing (this is good).
Non Splash. Mana much much more consistent. CoP is mostly gg which is annoying to auto loose against just 1 card unless you have some tricky life loss combo (rember that stuffy can be fettered for W players that run CoP).
Please note that I am not trying to determine which one is better than the other. Neither to convince anybody to use white because I use it.
What I am trying to do is to give information and points of view to make easier for everyone the decision.
I just realized. Mycoloth perfectly demonstrates the devour mechanic.
Mycoloth: NOMNOMNOM on Dragon Fodder.
One turn later, 1/1 turds come out.
Quote from kalkris »
btw i did it because i could. i was bored and decided to let my little med-free spree go ahead. I am bipolar, explaining all the drama that ensued after. I have problems.
Quote from ShadowWaveInc. »
Jon Finkel can simply walk into Mordor.
"When an artist dies the world loses two lives, that of the artist and that of his unfinished work."
What I dont like about chromatic star as the splasher is that if your "other color" spell is countered (which can very likely cause you splashed for SOME reason) your mana source is waisted.
I just realized. Mycoloth perfectly demonstrates the devour mechanic.
Mycoloth: NOMNOMNOM on Dragon Fodder.
One turn later, 1/1 turds come out.
Quote from kalkris »
btw i did it because i could. i was bored and decided to let my little med-free spree go ahead. I am bipolar, explaining all the drama that ensued after. I have problems.
Quote from ShadowWaveInc. »
Jon Finkel can simply walk into Mordor.
"When an artist dies the world loses two lives, that of the artist and that of his unfinished work."
Since the subject has come up recently, I thought I would go over wat the different colors offered in the way of splashing. To my mind, splashing is always done because you are trying to allow your deck to do something that it couldn't do before, or you are trying to shore up some weakness or hole int he deck that black alone can't fix. Some of the questions you have to ask when you splash a color are, "What do I gain from splashing? Can I make the mana be consistent? What do I give up?" and ultimately "Does this splash make the deck better or worse?" With these questions in mind, here's a little primer on splashing, as far as I can see it:
1) No splash
The main argument here is that black is able to handle its problem cards/matchups decently well on its own (ie. Stuffy Doll to get around CoP: Black), and by staying in mono-black the mana is more consistent. While there is truth to this, I personally don't find those arguments strong enough to persuade me not to splash - I think that the best answers for MBC's problems are found by splashing. It is true that any multicolor mana base will by definition be somewhat less reliable than a mono-colored version, but it is very possible to make a mana base that has virtually no problems with colors and still has the necessary black mana to support Consume.
There is also some vague thought that straight mono-black is more "pure" or better in principle than a deck with a splash. While I respect that opinion, I think that most people reading the competetive forums would be primarily interested in how to build the most powerful deck possible, and less interested in adhering to some theoretical sense of "color purity."
2) White Splash
This is the splash that I personally have been using for a while now, and it offers a lot of versatile cards that can fill the holes in the deck. I think the two premier cards in terms of sideboard utility that people will be interested in are Disenchant and Sacred Ground, which each fill a specific hole in the deck's strategy that black alone can't adequately deal with.
Other cards worth considering for maindeck or sideboard slots in white include Castigate, Faith's Fetters, Mortify, Wrath of God, and perhaps some more unconventional choices like Dawn Charm or Hide // Seek.
3) Green Splash
The main draw that green has as a splash color is pretty much the same as white; it can fill holes that black has no other way to fill. Green offers Krosan Grip and Seal of Primordium as viable disenchant effects, and Life from the Loam to fight land destruction.
I personally haven't thought much about splashing green, since it doesn't seem to offer as many other interesting choices as Blue or White, and doesn't have many cards that fill the roles we need to help our problem matchups. That said, some interesting cards worth considering might be Harmonize, Grave-Shell Scarab, or even something like Giant Solifuge against control.
4) Blue Splash
Blue is interesting as a splash color because, unlike Green and White, it doesn't really offer direct solutions to problem cards, or problem decks (bounce spells like Repeal do offer some hope in this department, but not with the efficiency of Green or White). What blue does offer is a group of card-advantage cards that can give the deck a different angle to take when fighting other control decks.
Many players have tried out Aeon Chronicler as an uncounterable drawing engine against counterspells, and Dimir Guildmage is a great card-advantage machine if you can get it to stick in play. Other interesting cards in blue include card-drawing like Compulsive Research or Whispers of the Muse, and even perhaps the Tutoring might of Mystical Teachings (this would involve a big change in the deck, but it might be an interesting idea...).
5) Red Splash
As you maybe could tell from my sig, Black/Red as a color combo will always have a place in my heart; I played a BR control deck to a really good finish at Regionals a few years ago, and I just really love the colors. I toyed around with splashing red for a while, mainly because of the card Rise // Fall; I really liked the idea of being able to play 8 "Hymns" in the deck (4 Stupor, 4 Rise // Fall). Other worthwhile cards in red include Demonfire, Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace (insane with an Arena out), Void, various burn spells, and even Sedge Sliver (probably the most underused creature in t2 right now...great card, just waiting for the right deck to come along that can use him).
I still like the idea of B/R as a color combo, and I've thought about building a straight B/R control deck (ie, more than just a splash...imagine a sort of MBC decklist, with some of the cards I mentioned earlier, along with stuff like Bogardan Hellkite and Akroma, Angel of Fury). That said, I don't think it really has much to offer in the way of a splash color for an MBC deck, since it doesn't really fix any holes, and it doesn't help any key matchups. But hey, if someone has a good list for a BR deck they wanna share, PM me with it.
Well, that pretty much covers all of the relevant options I could think of - feel free to list anymore I missed. Certainly there are other cards you could try out, and as Yawgmoth_Demon pointed out, there is also the possibility of splashing more than one color using Chromatic Star.
I just realized. Mycoloth perfectly demonstrates the devour mechanic.
Mycoloth: NOMNOMNOM on Dragon Fodder.
One turn later, 1/1 turds come out.
Quote from kalkris »
btw i did it because i could. i was bored and decided to let my little med-free spree go ahead. I am bipolar, explaining all the drama that ensued after. I have problems.
Quote from ShadowWaveInc. »
Jon Finkel can simply walk into Mordor.
"When an artist dies the world loses two lives, that of the artist and that of his unfinished work."
thanks alot DrJester. I now understand why White seems the most viable.
I love playing BR alot to, which is why i'd love to see a deck that could make it work.
What would we splash with Red though?
Hellkite?
Nice point about Loaming Shaman - he's decent for fighting against dredge, and is nice against all the various WRx Firemane decks, and the random Solar Flare that pops up. I doubt he will pull me away from white, since I already have Extirpate for fighting graveyard-based decks, but for those thinking about green, he's worth taking a look at.
someone said something on the previous page about chromatic star having synergy with phyrexian totem. i dont quite see how the 2 are synergistic at all.could someone please clarify ? also, cool primer drjester.a must-read for people new to this forum
i'll still try to make the MB version, since i don't have enough money to do the white splashing like DRJester =/
btw, i'll try make a BR control, seems interesting xDD
Well MBC is not a cheap deck. it needs 4x Damnation which means 80 bucks inversion. sigh
about the BR, i run also a very nice Dark Vore list. heavy discard and burn/board control (now with damnation). is pretty cool. (rise and fall, blackmail, damnaiton, stupor, smallpox, rift bolt, etc).
what about a tron roiling horror version?? for MBC??
or can we stay just at Mono Black. I like it so much more lol.
I'd say it's a problem.
two cards I'm really likeing are Soul spike and roiling horror (against control obviously), I can't believe I was using midnight charm while soul spike was available, it's just so much better. And along with roiling horror, it can be a real beast, good example is a gam I just played against a megrim deck (not tier 1, but proves my point), he has wheel of fate suspended at 2, I play the horror for 2, then next turn I consume for 3, lose 4 life from megire+wheel, then draw into a spike for his barbed shocker, so the horror comes into play as a 10/10, hits, and then it's a 20/20, seems pretty strong.
I'm still prefering haakon, I've hit a lot of decks with a lot of removal, and nearly everytime it dies, it's to something that would kill a skeletal vampire. And it goes pretty well with Loxodon warhammer, which I think is better than consume, costs 6 colourless mana to equip on the same turn, and then usually hits for 5-6, which makes it more efficient, and does it over and over, and comes down earlier, and it can be used to block.
Edit: The more I play with spike, the more I love it, it has won me so many games, and it makes me more than happy to drop a second or third arena since I can usually draw into one (or two, or three) and drop the extra cards I'm drawing to do that last 4 damage or counter the life loss. The number of times I've gone consume spirit for 5-9, then 1-2 soul spike is crazy, it just wins games, i'm really getting why every red deck plays char, 4 is a lot of damage
so what should I change in my Maindeck? The SideBoard Deffinately has to change, can i See your decklist?
view mine just 1 page back.
Or you could go with Dr Jester's white splash for sacred ground, look a few pages back or maybe he'll just post now.
So far landkill has not given me much trouble, but I will stay mono with no solutions save extirpate.
I have been thinking about this whole Soul Spike topic lately, and I think I'm gonna try it out. The most convincing argument I've heard is that it is a use for otherwise dead cards in hand. I have often found that I have decent control of a game, but end up drawing extra Arenas ( I drew all 4 in one game the other day), and extra discard when they have no cards left. I'm gonna try dropping one Totem and one Consume Spirit for 2 Soul Spike, although, I might mess that around and end up dropping a Skelevamp instead of a Totem, or drop one of each and leave it at 4 Consumes. Incidentally, what do you all think is the right balance? I have 10 card slots to spend between Consume, Skelevamp, Totem, and Spike. What is the right mix? I'm thinking 3 Consume, 3 Skelevamp, 2 Totem, 2 Spike.
Anyway, here's the list. Hide / Seek is testing REALLY well...I have loved it against the slower control decks, and it has given me a good matchup against both Tron and Dralnu decks. I encourage anyone even thinking about splashing white to try this list:
4 Godless Shrine
4 Caves of Koilos
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Urza's Factory
4 Damnation
4 Faith's Fetters
4 Sudden Death
4 Phyrexian Arena
4 Castigate
3 Stupor
3 Consume Spirit
3 Skeletal Vampire
2 Phyrexian Totem
2 Soul Spike
4 Extirpate
4 Hide // Seek
3 Disenchant
3 Last Gasp
1 Wrath of God
Thanks to Avatar for the rockin' Sig and Avvy!
My opinion is 3 consumes is a little much, 2 is probably enough (I have 1, but I also have stromgald crusaders and Haakon), 3 spikes is great because a lot of the time you can pitch 1 to the other, and it's not so bad casting it for 7, it costs 1 more than a consume for 4, it's instant, and you can use colourless. How often do you actually cast consume for more than 4-5 unless it's to end the game? My suggestion is 5 slots split between batman and the totem (more bats if you see a lot of burn, more totem for wrath happy meta), 2 for consume, 3 for spike.
Random question about your mana base, is that much white sources really necessary? 12 is a fair bit, and 8 of which hurt you
Edit:nevermind on the manabase, I didn't see all your white on the first pass
Edit2:Should I get a mono-black sig? I've been thinking about it, but i can't think of what I would want in it
Well I run 3x Consume, 2x Skeletal, 3x Totem, and 2x Spike; but I run straight monoblack, with the guantlets build (not tutor/toolbox) if that helps.
decks:
EDH - Riku, Xiahou, Konda, Azusa
modern - Past in Flames, Onmi-show
vintage - Drains, Oath
coup de grace:
3x sudden death
2x diabolic tutor
2x extripate
3x The Rack
3x tendrils of corruption
4x consume spirit
3x persecute
4x stupor
4x phyrexian arena
2x gauntlet of power
2x shrouded lore
3x scrying
1x ghost quarter
2x urborg
18 snowcovered swamps
SB
3x small pox
3x phyrexian totem
3x imp's mischeif
4x funeral charm or last gasp
2x extirpate
this deck has been play tested extensively
it pretty much consistently eats most decks, it has some problems with dralnu but pretty much after the persecute resolves with the help of mischeif dralnu pretty much chumps, plus main decking 4 extirpates pretty much hoses that deck
however, it has a HUGE problem with hasto mono green. the funeral charms havent been tested yet but second turn groundbreaker does a number on this deck, not to mention capt tickles and other hasty fellas rip it apart before it can stabalize
this deck ripps up boros, almost any other aggro archetype, and most control, although im just not sure what it can do about mono green, its way too fast. id like to hear some other sb suggestions (and please dont say SLAY or ill slap u in the face). Thanks!
NYC DARK KNIGHTS
cred to perv 90210 for the incredible sig.
i run cheap discards and rip their hands normally
actually, i'll do more testing with roiling horror, it seems promising
RGRG Big ManaRG
UB Classical Faeries UB
Pros and Cons of each???
White. Can bring Mortify, Disenchant, more ***, Faith's Fetters and Sacred Ground. Also Calciderm!!!
Green can bring putrefy (which is great against Mirror), Life from the Loam (idk we have just a few win conditions) and Krosan Grip, Seal of cleansing (this is good).
Non Splash. Mana much much more consistent. CoP is mostly gg which is annoying to auto loose against just 1 card unless you have some tricky life loss combo (rember that stuffy can be fettered for W players that run CoP).
Please note that I am not trying to determine which one is better than the other. Neither to convince anybody to use white because I use it.
What I am trying to do is to give information and points of view to make easier for everyone the decision.
regards!
Allows multiple color splashes.
Life from the Loam is probably only going to need to be used once or twice, and if it hits a win condition, green has evolution charm.
It's a metagame choice.
I haven't found it to be too much of a problem and worst comes to worst the star does replace itself.
1) No splash
The main argument here is that black is able to handle its problem cards/matchups decently well on its own (ie. Stuffy Doll to get around CoP: Black), and by staying in mono-black the mana is more consistent. While there is truth to this, I personally don't find those arguments strong enough to persuade me not to splash - I think that the best answers for MBC's problems are found by splashing. It is true that any multicolor mana base will by definition be somewhat less reliable than a mono-colored version, but it is very possible to make a mana base that has virtually no problems with colors and still has the necessary black mana to support Consume.
There is also some vague thought that straight mono-black is more "pure" or better in principle than a deck with a splash. While I respect that opinion, I think that most people reading the competetive forums would be primarily interested in how to build the most powerful deck possible, and less interested in adhering to some theoretical sense of "color purity."
2) White Splash
This is the splash that I personally have been using for a while now, and it offers a lot of versatile cards that can fill the holes in the deck. I think the two premier cards in terms of sideboard utility that people will be interested in are Disenchant and Sacred Ground, which each fill a specific hole in the deck's strategy that black alone can't adequately deal with.
Other cards worth considering for maindeck or sideboard slots in white include Castigate, Faith's Fetters, Mortify, Wrath of God, and perhaps some more unconventional choices like Dawn Charm or Hide // Seek.
3) Green Splash
The main draw that green has as a splash color is pretty much the same as white; it can fill holes that black has no other way to fill. Green offers Krosan Grip and Seal of Primordium as viable disenchant effects, and Life from the Loam to fight land destruction.
I personally haven't thought much about splashing green, since it doesn't seem to offer as many other interesting choices as Blue or White, and doesn't have many cards that fill the roles we need to help our problem matchups. That said, some interesting cards worth considering might be Harmonize, Grave-Shell Scarab, or even something like Giant Solifuge against control.
4) Blue Splash
Blue is interesting as a splash color because, unlike Green and White, it doesn't really offer direct solutions to problem cards, or problem decks (bounce spells like Repeal do offer some hope in this department, but not with the efficiency of Green or White). What blue does offer is a group of card-advantage cards that can give the deck a different angle to take when fighting other control decks.
Many players have tried out Aeon Chronicler as an uncounterable drawing engine against counterspells, and Dimir Guildmage is a great card-advantage machine if you can get it to stick in play. Other interesting cards in blue include card-drawing like Compulsive Research or Whispers of the Muse, and even perhaps the Tutoring might of Mystical Teachings (this would involve a big change in the deck, but it might be an interesting idea...).
5) Red Splash
As you maybe could tell from my sig, Black/Red as a color combo will always have a place in my heart; I played a BR control deck to a really good finish at Regionals a few years ago, and I just really love the colors. I toyed around with splashing red for a while, mainly because of the card Rise // Fall; I really liked the idea of being able to play 8 "Hymns" in the deck (4 Stupor, 4 Rise // Fall). Other worthwhile cards in red include Demonfire, Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace (insane with an Arena out), Void, various burn spells, and even Sedge Sliver (probably the most underused creature in t2 right now...great card, just waiting for the right deck to come along that can use him).
I still like the idea of B/R as a color combo, and I've thought about building a straight B/R control deck (ie, more than just a splash...imagine a sort of MBC decklist, with some of the cards I mentioned earlier, along with stuff like Bogardan Hellkite and Akroma, Angel of Fury). That said, I don't think it really has much to offer in the way of a splash color for an MBC deck, since it doesn't really fix any holes, and it doesn't help any key matchups. But hey, if someone has a good list for a BR deck they wanna share, PM me with it.
Well, that pretty much covers all of the relevant options I could think of - feel free to list anymore I missed. Certainly there are other cards you could try out, and as Yawgmoth_Demon pointed out, there is also the possibility of splashing more than one color using Chromatic Star.
Cheers.
Thanks to Avatar for the rockin' Sig and Avvy!
If you want to splash for more than one color, Prismatic Lens is another option to go with Star.
I want to add that in long games Loaming Shaman can be good in green.
I love playing BR alot to, which is why i'd love to see a deck that could make it work.
What would we splash with Red though?
Hellkite?
Thanks to Avatar for the rockin' Sig and Avvy!
seems reasonable, but i would just assume not activate totem if i know they are gonna be damaging it...
btw, i'll try make a BR control, seems interesting xDD
RGRG Big ManaRG
UB Classical Faeries UB
Well MBC is not a cheap deck. it needs 4x Damnation which means 80 bucks inversion. sigh
about the BR, i run also a very nice Dark Vore list. heavy discard and burn/board control (now with damnation). is pretty cool. (rise and fall, blackmail, damnaiton, stupor, smallpox, rift bolt, etc).
what about a tron roiling horror version?? for MBC??