No, it was directed at Blueconcept, who is indeed someone I know from LDdebate.com.
I don't think that's true. There are tons of very easy strategys for beating the crap out of dragon storm.
Counters, trickbind, shadow of a doubt, Only top 4 white creature, ivory mask, martyr of sands, Discard, persecute, shadow of doubt,
That's a bunch of things that rip DSTORM a new one. It's still a great deck, just like narco is a great deck.
Heh. Looks like you don't know that part of Dragonstorm's combo is a card called Gigadrowse, and that the only tech against it is Rewind. Bridge is completely annihilated by like twenty different cards. I've never lost a post-board game to it with any deck, and I never intend to. Get ready for a whole parade of 1-2 finishes, fellas.
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I'm 2-1 in the t2 tournament right now, homie. Lost to the mirror match. I told you already once, and I'll tell you again, I have beaten EVERY SINGLE ONE of the hate cards that supposedly beat this deck. You have been playing against bad players for wretch, crypt, or extirpate to do anything. Leyline is a bigger problem, but that's why good builds board aggro creatures, and krosan grip. Any deck that trys to aggro mulligan will be in for a big disapointment.
Leyline is what I use, and it's not bad players that let it win, it's a bad deck. You take three turns at the very least to Grip it, which means you don't even start playing until turn four. You might recognize turn four as the turn that most non-control decks in the format target to win the game. Control should be able to answer you somehow by then, and combo and aggro should have you flat on your back. You lose.
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Ignoring his results? I'm not the one that said "this deck is awesome, every time you've beat it it must have been because you were playing against some kind of retard."
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Any deck can beat hate, check out the worlds match between DS and Martyrtron. The difference is that can it consistantly beat hate? I don't see that happening Consistantly not when any deck has answers to it. You call it the best deck sence Affinity in Standard, well even Affinity was ripped apart by GW slide, and affinity was MUCH more hate resiliant in that environment than Narco is now, you will see come regionals. I have to agree with Extarbags on this one, theres to much hate for it to overcome. Sure you can beat a leyline with Grip, but how can you draw it if half your deck is in the GY?
Trust me the players I know are some of the best players in my state. With constructed ratings of 1850 or higher. Anyway lets not let this thread turn into Narobridge debate forum # 10. On subject After watching some online results I have seen several Monoblack Rack decks doing pretty well. I would put it as tier 1 but what do you guys think? Good deck or Modo toy?
Probably not the best match to call up as evidence to prove your point, but I still agree with you. Dragonstorm is much tougher to hate than Dredge, and the Dredge hate is all the more deadly.
Edit: On the topic of B Rack...It was better in the Dralnu-heavy metagame, but it isn't a bad deck. It's a fairly good aggro deck with heavy disruption. Tier 2, probably.
but yeah, I don't really trust the online meta as much as I used too. the rack is only good cause it has some game against DS and Gruul(thanks to Damnation). But its still Tier 1.5
an tier 1.5 is for all those decks who don't deserve to be tier 2, and are just a few wins from being Tier 1.
tier 1: dragonstorm, gruul, dralnu
tier 1.5: mono blue pickles, u/r tron, solarflare, angelfire
tier 2: nacrobridge, dredge, bwg, g/w glare, tron vairent, w/b aggro, scrby force, r/b ignite the warren, rack, and hatching plan.dec(i had to put this on tier 2, from testing the deck's explosiveness is crazy but its not stable enough to compare with ds)
all i say is people underestimate solarflare too much just because it hasnt been on the scene for a while, turn 4 akroma still wins games and with discard and great game versus aggro afterboard.
nacrobridge is getting hyped a bit, its a good deck but not that good. mono black rack has some killer matcchup but sometimes it just dies. a desert pretty much kills the whole board
I agree, lets not make this into bridge debate.thread, but I will add one last thing. The odds of getting a layline in the opening hand is about 25%. Muliganing makes it even less, and even less, and even less. Even if you are able to aggressively muligan into a leyline, you win have anywhere from 5-2 cards in your hand. (I have seen people keep 3 card hands against the deck just because they had to get to a leyline) This means I will have a long time to recover, and considering that my SB strategy is "convert to UBg aggro, you're in a very deep world of hurt.
If you don't draw it in the opening hand, then it's only coming down on turn 4, and by then, I pretty much have everything I need in the yard, and am constantly beating face anyway.
*shrug* But you keep thinking leyline beats me.
I've been noticing the upswing of B rack decks on MWS, and I must say, the deck is decent. It rapes D-storm, and doesn't really straight lose to anything, except narco bridge.
I hate Narcobridge Debates, what I can say is that the Deck is good I like the combo, although there may be a lot of hates if you can pilot around it then better, and if luck is on your side then great...
On topic, Tier Decks post FS
Tier 1: Angelfire, Dragonstorm, Dralnu, Gruul
Tier 2: Pickles, Other Storm decks, Solar Flare, MGA, etc...
#1 - What's the dumbest idea you ever had?
#2 - 15/15 for 15?
#1 - Make it dumber
#2 - Give it protection from removal and counter?
#1 - DUMBER!
#2 - Add Timewalk?
#1 - DAMN IT MAN, I SAID DUMB!! DUMB !!!
#2 - It destroys everything when it attacks.... And wait, I have a friend who plays mill decks... I want to beat him too.
#1 - Excellent! Recess is over, go back and learn sex-ed with the other 6th graders.
Eh maybe tier 1.5 maybe 2 though. Anyway Dralnu isn't what it used to be. Detritivore dosen't help at all. One good thing though Dralnu has a good match up against NarcoBridge.
Dralnu does not necessary have a fantastic matchup against Nacrobridge. Bridge is such a passive deck, if it just sticks an early discard outlet does not necessarily need to cast many other spells.
Any deck can beat hate, The difference is that can it consistantly beat hate? I don't see that happening Consistantly not when any deck has answers to it. You call it the best deck sence Affinity in Standard, well even Affinity was ripped apart by GW slide, and affinity was MUCH more hate resiliant in that environment than Narco is now, you will see come regionals. I have to agree with Extarbags on this one, theres to much hate for it to overcome. Sure you can beat a leyline with Grip, but how can you draw it if half your deck is in the GY?
I must agree with these statements fully. Anyone can pilot a deck around deck specific hate, however with cards like Leyline, Extirpate, Crypt etc... too many decks can play the hate. Can you Krosan their Leyline? Sure...sometimes. Can you Krosan their Crypt? Only if your opponent plays it completely incorectly. Can you stop Extirpate on Bridge in response?....sure... But as Someguy25 pointed out quite well, It isnt consistent.
@ Petroleum Jelly: Im glad that your deck is running 2-1 and somehow managing to defeat the hate, however, I would have to assume that your opponents may be misplaying their own hate against your deck(playing Crpyt and passing turn for instance), but then agian who knows. Im stil firmly in the camp that if a Dredge deck will remain in the Meta it will be a version more similiar to the current Non-FS version which is more control oriented, and unquestionably more consistent.
Please, accept that Magic costs money to play, and drop it. A playset of Baneslayers>playset of duals. New Jace>Force of Will. Etc... Not to mention, Legacy is so wide open, that it's easy to build a deck that can perform reasonably well without very many "money staples" at all.
If they remove the Bridges in response to the zombie CiP trigger then you get 0 zombies.
Even after damning this deck as I have, I think it still has a chance. My combo-heavy version (my alt win con is massive Grave-Trolls) is doing well in the local meta, and I want to see how it fares at Regionals. Might post a list at some point.
Um...Next time, don't assume the person you are talking to is a moron. I am well aware of the concept of an intervening if. I was talking about if you were to have a rusalka in play, you could get zombies in RESPONSE to them saccing crypt. But I guess crypt suddenly got split second, then...My bad.
@: CDS: Nope. My deck is just averse to handling the hate. It runs Maindecked leylines in order to deal with opponents saccing their critters. Leyline is the best defense of bridges the deck has. Then, after transformational SB, I bring in critters, so that their SB strategy is horribly, HORRIBLY wrong.
Yeah, but here's what you're not getting: you need a different intricate, contrived situation to get around each of the hate cards for this deck. You have to essentially transform the entire deck into a deck designed to beat the hate, and the guy you're playing against isn't doing the same thing. That gives him a huge advantage.
At this point, you might as well just fill your sideboard with Dauthi Slayers, Silhana Ledgewalkers, Moldervine Cloaks, and Plague Slivers and take out the entire combo games two and three. It's probably more effective than siding in wishful thinking outs against every possible piece of graveyard hate.
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Um...Next time, don't assume the person you are talking to is a moron. I am well aware of the concept of an intervening if. I was talking about if you were to have a rusalka in play, you could get zombies in RESPONSE to them saccing crypt. But I guess crypt suddenly got split second, then...My bad.
I beleive he may have actually been referring to Extirpate...which, coincidentaly, does have Split Second:teach:
@: CDS: Nope. My deck is just averse to handling the hate. It runs Maindecked leylines in order to deal with opponents saccing their critters. Leyline is the best defense of bridges the deck has. Then, after transformational SB, I bring in critters, so that their SB strategy is horribly, HORRIBLY wrong.
Im completely split now. As ExtarBags says in his post above, you basically would be swapping in a TransformSB, playing your combo first game only...Which basically, in itself, says something about the inconsistency and vulnerablilty of this deck. However, this does seem that it would be a very effective move which many players would not see coming. Your opponent SB's Leylines, Crypts, Extirpates etc... and you take out your combo, basically nullifying their SB game plan.
It is a very good idea strategy-wise, but you must admit yourself, that shows the brutal weakness of the hate to this deck, which defeats your argument of it's resiliency to hate. Can be resistant to hate when you Transform your deck when you basically know their SB plan.
However even a Transformational SB is something that would catch on quick, be a huge success, until everyone hates against your TSB... IMHO just another flash in the pan. Not Teir 1.
Please, accept that Magic costs money to play, and drop it. A playset of Baneslayers>playset of duals. New Jace>Force of Will. Etc... Not to mention, Legacy is so wide open, that it's easy to build a deck that can perform reasonably well without very many "money staples" at all.
Mono black rack did see some success in the form of winning one of the GP LCQs and has reportedly been winning a fair number of standard events while top 8ing quite often online. Even with this information I'd still consider it tier 2 (please stop using 1.5, it's made up) along with every other deck that hasn't put up large consistent numbers like d-storm and gruul. Since were all saying what we think are the top tier decks, this is what I think the breakdown looks like:
Pre FS:
Tier 1:Gruul and D-Storm
Tier 2: Rack, Dredge, Angelfire, Tron, Dralnu sans Dralnu, Pickles, Project X, maybe Solar Flare (it hasn't been doing to hot even with the surge of people playing it recently), UG Scryb and Force
Tier 3: Boros, MGAnything, homebrews. Expect BDW at regionals though.
Post FS:
Tier 1: Gruul, D-Storm
Tier 2: The same except the addition of Narcobridge and the loss of SnF
Tier 3: Boros, Scryb n Force, MG, homebrew
The only reason why I didn't move anything up is because there are a fair number of decks in tier 2 that can potentially become tier 1, including the make a wish foundation (project x but better name imo), rack (augur stalls creatures without trample and wrecks control), narcobridge, dredge, the trons, dralnu, possibly pickles, and maybe solar flare (just because it seems to be a popular choice doesn't make it tier 1 though). Boros could see a return to tier 2 if the MD sulfurs seem to disappear, which I wouldn't understand since they're not just great against white but they're great for UR control decks who want to play things during their opponent's eot, and they're not bad in gruul either. Scryb n Force is the result of being unallied colors in a block that is focusing on allied colors, so sadly it's falling to the wayside, but maybe they'll reprint some of its goodies in Xth (like plaxmanta, one of the best aggro/control creatures ever made).
Competative but not Tier 1: Bridge, MGA, Pickles, etc.
On a sidenote: Narcobridge owns at Game 1. Post sideboard is complete new ballgame - a well placed Extirpate (Or other hate) delays bridge enough for other Tier 1 decks to kill them since deck (right now) doesn't pack any disruption. A good competative player wouldn't just lose to bridge after Sideboard, and all Tier 1 decks (Right now and post FS) has hate against it.
@Petroleumjelly: Just read your post - If you can pull that off, NarcoBridge still won't be tier one until it beats Dragonstorm (which is far more streamlined, packs disruption maindeck and has Hatecards vs bridge sideboard). That said, I guess a transformational SB on bridge gives it a very nasty competative edge indeed.
I don't think that's true. There are tons of very easy strategys for beating the crap out of dragon storm.
Counters, trickbind, shadow of a doubt, Only top 4 white creature, ivory mask, martyr of sands, Discard, persecute, shadow of doubt,
That's a bunch of things that rip DSTORM a new one. It's still a great deck, just like narco is a great deck.
Heh. Looks like you don't know that part of Dragonstorm's combo is a card called Gigadrowse, and that the only tech against it is Rewind. Bridge is completely annihilated by like twenty different cards. I've never lost a post-board game to it with any deck, and I never intend to. Get ready for a whole parade of 1-2 finishes, fellas.
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Won due to a playing error on the side of Nassif.
Probably not the best match to call up as evidence to prove your point, but I still agree with you. Dragonstorm is much tougher to hate than Dredge, and the Dredge hate is all the more deadly.
Edit: On the topic of B Rack...It was better in the Dralnu-heavy metagame, but it isn't a bad deck. It's a fairly good aggro deck with heavy disruption. Tier 2, probably.
EDH:
UBGThe MimeoplasmUBG
play mistakes three games in a row?
but yeah, I don't really trust the online meta as much as I used too. the rack is only good cause it has some game against DS and Gruul(thanks to Damnation). But its still Tier 1.5
an tier 1.5 is for all those decks who don't deserve to be tier 2, and are just a few wins from being Tier 1.
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tier 1.5: mono blue pickles, u/r tron, solarflare, angelfire
tier 2: nacrobridge, dredge, bwg, g/w glare, tron vairent, w/b aggro, scrby force, r/b ignite the warren, rack, and hatching plan.dec(i had to put this on tier 2, from testing the deck's explosiveness is crazy but its not stable enough to compare with ds)
all i say is people underestimate solarflare too much just because it hasnt been on the scene for a while, turn 4 akroma still wins games and with discard and great game versus aggro afterboard.
nacrobridge is getting hyped a bit, its a good deck but not that good. mono black rack has some killer matcchup but sometimes it just dies. a desert pretty much kills the whole board
If you don't draw it in the opening hand, then it's only coming down on turn 4, and by then, I pretty much have everything I need in the yard, and am constantly beating face anyway.
*shrug* But you keep thinking leyline beats me.
I've been noticing the upswing of B rack decks on MWS, and I must say, the deck is decent. It rapes D-storm, and doesn't really straight lose to anything, except narco bridge.
On topic, Tier Decks post FS
Tier 1: Angelfire, Dragonstorm, Dralnu, Gruul
Tier 2: Pickles, Other Storm decks, Solar Flare, MGA, etc...
Standard
WBR Mardu Vehicles RBW
Modern
WUBRG Amulet Titan GRBUW
I must agree with these statements fully. Anyone can pilot a deck around deck specific hate, however with cards like Leyline, Extirpate, Crypt etc... too many decks can play the hate. Can you Krosan their Leyline? Sure...sometimes. Can you Krosan their Crypt? Only if your opponent plays it completely incorectly. Can you stop Extirpate on Bridge in response?....sure... But as Someguy25 pointed out quite well, It isnt consistent.
@ Petroleum Jelly: Im glad that your deck is running 2-1 and somehow managing to defeat the hate, however, I would have to assume that your opponents may be misplaying their own hate against your deck(playing Crpyt and passing turn for instance), but then agian who knows. Im stil firmly in the camp that if a Dredge deck will remain in the Meta it will be a version more similiar to the current Non-FS version which is more control oriented, and unquestionably more consistent.
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Um...Next time, don't assume the person you are talking to is a moron. I am well aware of the concept of an intervening if. I was talking about if you were to have a rusalka in play, you could get zombies in RESPONSE to them saccing crypt. But I guess crypt suddenly got split second, then...My bad.
@: CDS: Nope. My deck is just averse to handling the hate. It runs Maindecked leylines in order to deal with opponents saccing their critters. Leyline is the best defense of bridges the deck has. Then, after transformational SB, I bring in critters, so that their SB strategy is horribly, HORRIBLY wrong.
At this point, you might as well just fill your sideboard with Dauthi Slayers, Silhana Ledgewalkers, Moldervine Cloaks, and Plague Slivers and take out the entire combo games two and three. It's probably more effective than siding in wishful thinking outs against every possible piece of graveyard hate.
I beleive he may have actually been referring to Extirpate...which, coincidentaly, does have Split Second:teach:
Im completely split now. As ExtarBags says in his post above, you basically would be swapping in a TransformSB, playing your combo first game only...Which basically, in itself, says something about the inconsistency and vulnerablilty of this deck. However, this does seem that it would be a very effective move which many players would not see coming. Your opponent SB's Leylines, Crypts, Extirpates etc... and you take out your combo, basically nullifying their SB game plan.
It is a very good idea strategy-wise, but you must admit yourself, that shows the brutal weakness of the hate to this deck, which defeats your argument of it's resiliency to hate. Can be resistant to hate when you Transform your deck when you basically know their SB plan.
However even a Transformational SB is something that would catch on quick, be a huge success, until everyone hates against your TSB... IMHO just another flash in the pan. Not Teir 1.
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Pre FS:
Tier 1:Gruul and D-Storm
Tier 2: Rack, Dredge, Angelfire, Tron, Dralnu sans Dralnu, Pickles, Project X, maybe Solar Flare (it hasn't been doing to hot even with the surge of people playing it recently), UG Scryb and Force
Tier 3: Boros, MGAnything, homebrews. Expect BDW at regionals though.
Post FS:
Tier 1: Gruul, D-Storm
Tier 2: The same except the addition of Narcobridge and the loss of SnF
Tier 3: Boros, Scryb n Force, MG, homebrew
The only reason why I didn't move anything up is because there are a fair number of decks in tier 2 that can potentially become tier 1, including the make a wish foundation (project x but better name imo), rack (augur stalls creatures without trample and wrecks control), narcobridge, dredge, the trons, dralnu, possibly pickles, and maybe solar flare (just because it seems to be a popular choice doesn't make it tier 1 though). Boros could see a return to tier 2 if the MD sulfurs seem to disappear, which I wouldn't understand since they're not just great against white but they're great for UR control decks who want to play things during their opponent's eot, and they're not bad in gruul either. Scryb n Force is the result of being unallied colors in a block that is focusing on allied colors, so sadly it's falling to the wayside, but maybe they'll reprint some of its goodies in Xth (like plaxmanta, one of the best aggro/control creatures ever made).
Post-Rotation
Tier 1: Dralnu (U/B Mystical Techings Control), Dragonstorm Combo (loves Pact of Negation), Grull Aggro
Competative but not Tier 1: Bridge, MGA, Pickles, etc.
On a sidenote: Narcobridge owns at Game 1. Post sideboard is complete new ballgame - a well placed Extirpate (Or other hate) delays bridge enough for other Tier 1 decks to kill them since deck (right now) doesn't pack any disruption. A good competative player wouldn't just lose to bridge after Sideboard, and all Tier 1 decks (Right now and post FS) has hate against it.
@Petroleumjelly: Just read your post - If you can pull that off, NarcoBridge still won't be tier one until it beats Dragonstorm (which is far more streamlined, packs disruption maindeck and has Hatecards vs bridge sideboard). That said, I guess a transformational SB on bridge gives it a very nasty competative edge indeed.