Yeah, I never felt like I needed the extra push of Always Watching as Herald and Reflector Mage are good at locking down the ground. If it's a turn 5 play, I think I'd rather play Thunderclap Wyvern, especially with the abundance of Dromoka's Command that can remove enchantments. I'll test something like this tonight:
- Ojutai's Command is great on paper but I have yet to get great value from it and it often clogs up your hand. Trimming from 3 to 2 with the addition of Deep-Fiends as another 4 drop. People have been high on this card as a finisher so I'll test it out. Reflector Mage is great fodder for the emerge cost.
- 1 Unsubstantiate and 1 Selfless Spirit are expendable. I will try 2 Declaration in Stone or 2 Anafenza in this spot at some point. I don't like how Anafenza skews the manabase, and Declaration isn't as necessary with Reflectors/Nebelgasts. But these slots are certainly wide-open.
- I played Dimensional Infiltrator for a little while but didn't like it. Playing more Spirits in the 2-drop slot has been smoother in the late game. I also went from 3 Clash of Wills to 2, and now 0. It might have a place, but we already have a fair amount of spell interaction.
EDIT: Stoneforge Masterwork is another one to test but I don't like how low impact it is when you only have a couple of creatures. I don't think the additional damage is worth it over the tempo of Reflectors and Nebelgasts but maybe it is just better to run pump effects than Reflector Mage in general.
Eros definitely room for e archetype to be developed, so the configuration is till being determined. Reflector Mage into spaghetti octopus is definitely a stron play too. I think preserving the instant speed aspect is the way to go for the deck in its beginning stages until the format settles down a bit. Ojutais command is definitely stron, I just wished it costed 3cmc. The modes are all pretty reasonable there... Anyways.
I should note that Patrick Chapin posted an amazing Spirits guide on SCG with a huge in depth analysis on advanced Spell Queller techniques I didn't even see. He posted a midrange/control list and an aggro list too.
Well, Pat Chapman certainly loves essence flux. Of those listed, I like the last two and it seems that they both are fairly in keeping with what has been discussed so far. I'm very curious about unsubstantiate and how it performs, since people compare it to remand (I prefer remand personally, but I am looking at unsubstantiate through the eyes of a skilled edh player where it's outclaassed). I still am pretty sold on always watching, but the last list plays almost completely at instant speed. That pure instant speed interaction might just be better than the power/toughness boost that watching gives. Time and testing will tell for sure. It appears that the core of the deck is pret fleshed out though.
In thinking about it more, the pure instant speed deck might be the best. I'm not sure what the meta will look like, but 4 selfless spirit seems excessive. Having 4 in the 75 is correct because they can help win the combat step and negate radiant flames and its ilk. Having on tempo counter spells is also probably a good call too, and I think his split is correct in the last list. Essence flux certainly has some excellent applications withy the spirit creature suite available. Christmasland scenario: fluxing a rattlchains in response to a declaration in stone on a nebelelgast herald. That's like the ultimate tempo play.
This is a pretty complicated stack interaction, but ultimately it works. You cast the queller, it has an etb ability to exile the spell. In response, with the target of that spell being chosen by its etb ability, you blink it. It's ltb trigger goes into the stack above the etb trigger, which already has a target chosen. The queller blinks, and the ltb ability resolves. But since the first etb still hasn't resolved, there is no spell for the queller to return casting. It comes back as a new object with no memory of its first etb trigger, since it's a new object, and the spell is permanently exiled. For additional rulings, check out flickerwisp and some of the nightmare creatures from torment. Does that make sense? Some of the details might be off in my explanation so if someone has a more in depth explanation, go for it.
This is a pretty complicated stack interaction, but ultimately it works. You cast the queller, it has an etb ability to exile the spell. In response, with the target of that spell being chosen by its etb ability, you blink it. It's ltb trigger goes into the stack above the etb trigger, which already has a target chosen. The queller blinks, and the ltb ability resolves. But since the first etb still hasn't resolved, there is no spell for the queller to return casting. It comes back as a new object with no memory of its first etb trigger, since it's a new object, and the spell is permanently exiled. For additional rulings, check out flickerwisp and some of the nightmare creatures from torment. Does that make sense? Some of the details might be off in my explanation so if someone has a more in depth explanation, go for it.
But when the Queller re-enters the battlefield, it triggers again and exiles the spell. The previous two triggers then both resolve and do nothing (unless there are multiple spells on the stack).
One thing that does bother me with the aggressive lists in testing is that it can't efficiently finish the game until turn 5 at the earliest, on average it may be at turn 7-8. I normally like more aggressive lists, but spirits are not necessarily fast enough, so it may have to go more top heavy aggro (I think it's called Sledgehammer?) with Deep-Fiend or Ojutai on top. Avacyn is just asking for trouble unfortunately. The third list gives us the aggressive shell we want with a good top end to finish the game if it drags on. It just needs some minor tweaking.
This is a pretty complicated stack interaction, but ultimately it works. You cast the queller, it has an etb ability to exile the spell. In response, with the target of that spell being chosen by its etb ability, you blink it. It's ltb trigger goes into the stack above the etb trigger, which already has a target chosen. The queller blinks, and the ltb ability resolves. But since the first etb still hasn't resolved, there is no spell for the queller to return casting. It comes back as a new object with no memory of its first etb trigger, since it's a new object, and the spell is permanently exiled. For additional rulings, check out flickerwisp and some of the nightmare creatures from torment. Does that make sense? Some of the details might be off in my explanation so if someone has a more in depth explanation, go for it.
But when the Queller re-enters the battlefield, it triggers again and exiles the spell. The previous two triggers then both resolve and do nothing (unless there are multiple spells on the stack).
That was my thinking since the target is mandatory.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yet at the same time it's our free outlet to flip Avacyn, which then doesn't give us the indestructible. Without Spirit out on the board we're pretty much boned. Maybe with Ojutai's Command and Essence Flux it can be okay, but I kinda like Eldrazi Deep-Fiend better for now.
Yet at the same time it's our free outlet to flip Avacyn, which then doesn't give us the indestructible. Without Spirit out on the board we're pretty much boned. Maybe with Ojutai's Command and Essence Flux it can be okay, but I kinda like Eldrazi Deep-Fiend better for now.
Yeah, someone would have to use Mausoleum Wanderer to trigger it unless someone is also running something like Kami of False Hope or another sac outlet. Unfortunately we don't really have that in standard. I'm sticking with deep fiend myself.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Spectral Shepard had some play to it and could be a 1-2 of or a sideboard card versus decks that try to put attrition you or in a protracted game.
Essence Flux seems like a great play in the deck. Lets you blink a Wanderer to up its counter spell ability. Triggers Bishop and of course blanks removal. All at 1 blue mana.
This is my tpo deck for this standard so I'm going to build for that game plan. I think Reflector Mage just does too much to not be included.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I'm tempted to include a Nephalia Academy to combat discard. If I had to make a choice between getting a card that I need taken from my hand and into the GY and drawing a possible early game card vs just drawing that same card, I'd probably go with the later. Anyone else taken a look?
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Well, to sum up a few points for anyone else trying to brew with spirits here are some things to keep in mind after doing some quicky deck brewing...
1. We really don't want more than 2 Ojutai's Command in the mainboard and the only reason I even put a third one in the side is because of not knowing what else to fill the slot with.
2. Max out on the newer spirits and don't ignore the odd-balls. Having our own semi-competent version of Eldrazi Displacer is nice.
3. Don't overlook the new Collective cards. A lot of creatures have power greater than 4 for collective effort, and the 2cmc white collective card does enough that even with a tempo list I"d probably run a few.
Other than that, I think Chaplain hit the nail on the head with his three listings. It's basically going the same way in the modern forum, just with more crazy jankiness because of Kamigawa block having a bunch of underutilized spirits.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yeah I'm thinking about sneaking in two copies of Reflector Mage in that build. I feel like I want the card, but not too many to disrupt the instant speed plans.
In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Is a card you never want in The mirror Match. Even Unsubstantiate is broken vs that guy.
Fiend is an insane card though. It's not too hard to play around counter magic especially with flash and a lot of decks I've seen right now are just Aggro decks with no counter magic or Bant Company style decks. Reflector Mage is still a bad day but I've won a few games playing Elder-Deep Fiend on turn 4 opponent's upkeep and then another one on turn 5 opponent's upkeep and basically locking them out for a couple turns.
Actually, couldn't we use Dimensional Infiltrator as another option for the 2 drop spot? It's not a spirit, but it does have flying, flash, a semi-useful ability, and can get boosted by always watching. I think I've seen a list somewhere else that uses it.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Is a card you never want in The mirror Match. Even Unsubstantiate is broken vs that guy.
Fiend is an insane card though. It's not too hard to play around counter magic especially with flash and a lot of decks I've seen right now are just Aggro decks with no counter magic or Bant Company style decks. Reflector Mage is still a bad day but I've won a few games playing Elder-Deep Fiend on turn 4 opponent's upkeep and then another one on turn 5 opponent's upkeep and basically locking them out for a couple turns.
This. This is the line of plays I've envisioned for this deck. It's the same kind of game as back to back Mistbind Cliques in the Faeries standard and you didn't really win after that sequence. I imagine the same will be true for Deep-Fiends back to back like this. I think that it's super easy for this deck to be playing at instant speed and then, after the first Deep-Fiend, to be the aggro deck and apply pressure with some of the sorcery speed spirits. An opponent is going to be much more concerned with the 5/6 that's rumbling in at his life total than the Bygone Bishop you just cast, securing the late game for yourself. Emerging the Deep-Fiend or generally casting it in the early turns is almost like a time walk, which is exactly what this deck is looking for.
Reflector Mage should have never been printed at uncommon. It's too good at that rarity. I can see it being in this list since it does deny multiple castings of a card, and every deck is playing 4-ofs generally, so he has excellent utility. Maybe a few of him in the main can help gain some tempo, although playing at instant speed is generally the best way to gain tempo.
Actually, couldn't we use Dimensional Infiltrator as another option for the 2 drop spot? It's not a spirit, but it does have flying, flash, a semi-useful ability, and can get boosted by always watching. I think I've seen a list somewhere else that uses it.
Dimensional Infiltrator was used in a UR Flyers list where the tempo list was supplemented with burn spells to dome the opponent alongside the flash flyers and counterspells used. Because it had the direct support of burn, the Infiltrator was an acceptable 2CMC flyer that gets above the ground crew. I don't think that it's as good here because it lacks the tribal synergy and it's ability is not that useful in comparison of the other creatures that we have the option of running.
Reflector Mage is the nuts if you are running 2 or more Essence Flux. Repeatedly bouncing a key creature is just filthy. It's really a fantastic card to sac to Fiend. I can't think of a valid reason to not play Mage in a UW deck. Especially a deck that actively wants tempo and has the ability to blink him built into the deck.
Fiend will be my other non spirit in the deck. It's just good enough to mitigate the downside.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Reflector Mage is the nuts if you are running 2 or more Essence Flux. Repeatedly bouncing a key creature is just filthy. It's really a fantastic card to sac to Fiend. I can't think of a valid reason to not play Mage in a UW deck. Especially a deck that actively wants tempo and has the ability to blink him built into the deck.
it is, but it's competing for a spot with herald of nebelgast. Which is arguably as good, or better. Maybe the jury's still out on that one.
Yes but in this deck you can repeatedly trigger him. Now if you run Spectral Shepars then Mage has no place. Shepard make Qwueller a lock out counter with 5 mana open.
I mean isn't that something people should be exploring? You just get to a point where you can counter every mana or less spell once per turn. I'm thinking Shepard is at least worth a 2 of just for the off chance that you can make this happen. Or heck you can even keep things tapped down with the tap guys.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
So what are the standout sideboard cards that fit the deck at the moment? I'm thinking Collective Effort, Turn Aside, and Negate will be useful. I'm not sure Dispel will get much use since most of the dangerous spells are sorcery speed this standard. At least it seems that way. Out of the three I'm probably least inclined to use Turn Aside since we got a way to stop permanent targeting via Rattle chains.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
So what are the standout sideboard cards that fit the deck at the moment? I'm thinking Collective Effort, Turn Aside, and Negate will be useful. I'm not sure Dispel will get much use since most of the dangerous spells are sorcery speed this standard. At least it seems that way. Out of the three I'm probably least inclined to use Turn Aside since we got a way to stop permanent targeting via Rattle chains.
Eros definitely room for e archetype to be developed, so the configuration is till being determined. Reflector Mage into spaghetti octopus is definitely a stron play too. I think preserving the instant speed aspect is the way to go for the deck in its beginning stages until the format settles down a bit. Ojutais command is definitely stron, I just wished it costed 3cmc. The modes are all pretty reasonable there... Anyways.
Well, Pat Chapman certainly loves essence flux. Of those listed, I like the last two and it seems that they both are fairly in keeping with what has been discussed so far. I'm very curious about unsubstantiate and how it performs, since people compare it to remand (I prefer remand personally, but I am looking at unsubstantiate through the eyes of a skilled edh player where it's outclaassed). I still am pretty sold on always watching, but the last list plays almost completely at instant speed. That pure instant speed interaction might just be better than the power/toughness boost that watching gives. Time and testing will tell for sure. It appears that the core of the deck is pret fleshed out though.
In thinking about it more, the pure instant speed deck might be the best. I'm not sure what the meta will look like, but 4 selfless spirit seems excessive. Having 4 in the 75 is correct because they can help win the combat step and negate radiant flames and its ilk. Having on tempo counter spells is also probably a good call too, and I think his split is correct in the last list. Essence flux certainly has some excellent applications withy the spirit creature suite available. Christmasland scenario: fluxing a rattlchains in response to a declaration in stone on a nebelelgast herald. That's like the ultimate tempo play.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
But when the Queller re-enters the battlefield, it triggers again and exiles the spell. The previous two triggers then both resolve and do nothing (unless there are multiple spells on the stack).
One thing that does bother me with the aggressive lists in testing is that it can't efficiently finish the game until turn 5 at the earliest, on average it may be at turn 7-8. I normally like more aggressive lists, but spirits are not necessarily fast enough, so it may have to go more top heavy aggro (I think it's called Sledgehammer?) with Deep-Fiend or Ojutai on top. Avacyn is just asking for trouble unfortunately. The third list gives us the aggressive shell we want with a good top end to finish the game if it drags on. It just needs some minor tweaking.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
That was my thinking since the target is mandatory.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yet at the same time it's our free outlet to flip Avacyn, which then doesn't give us the indestructible. Without Spirit out on the board we're pretty much boned. Maybe with Ojutai's Command and Essence Flux it can be okay, but I kinda like Eldrazi Deep-Fiend better for now.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Yeah, someone would have to use Mausoleum Wanderer to trigger it unless someone is also running something like Kami of False Hope or another sac outlet. Unfortunately we don't really have that in standard. I'm sticking with deep fiend myself.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Essence Flux seems like a great play in the deck. Lets you blink a Wanderer to up its counter spell ability. Triggers Bishop and of course blanks removal. All at 1 blue mana.
This is my tpo deck for this standard so I'm going to build for that game plan. I think Reflector Mage just does too much to not be included.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
4 Ojutai's Command?
and...
2 Essence Flux?
Your curve is quite a bit higher than other builds. I think you'd need 25 lands to support what you're trying to do with so much in the 3-4 cmc range.
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1. We really don't want more than 2 Ojutai's Command in the mainboard and the only reason I even put a third one in the side is because of not knowing what else to fill the slot with.
2. Max out on the newer spirits and don't ignore the odd-balls. Having our own semi-competent version of Eldrazi Displacer is nice.
3. Don't overlook the new Collective cards. A lot of creatures have power greater than 4 for collective effort, and the 2cmc white collective card does enough that even with a tempo list I"d probably run a few.
Other than that, I think Chaplain hit the nail on the head with his three listings. It's basically going the same way in the modern forum, just with more crazy jankiness because of Kamigawa block having a bunch of underutilized spirits.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Fiend is an insane card though. It's not too hard to play around counter magic especially with flash and a lot of decks I've seen right now are just Aggro decks with no counter magic or Bant Company style decks. Reflector Mage is still a bad day but I've won a few games playing Elder-Deep Fiend on turn 4 opponent's upkeep and then another one on turn 5 opponent's upkeep and basically locking them out for a couple turns.
Modern: RW Burn
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
This. This is the line of plays I've envisioned for this deck. It's the same kind of game as back to back Mistbind Cliques in the Faeries standard and you didn't really win after that sequence. I imagine the same will be true for Deep-Fiends back to back like this. I think that it's super easy for this deck to be playing at instant speed and then, after the first Deep-Fiend, to be the aggro deck and apply pressure with some of the sorcery speed spirits. An opponent is going to be much more concerned with the 5/6 that's rumbling in at his life total than the Bygone Bishop you just cast, securing the late game for yourself. Emerging the Deep-Fiend or generally casting it in the early turns is almost like a time walk, which is exactly what this deck is looking for.
Reflector Mage should have never been printed at uncommon. It's too good at that rarity. I can see it being in this list since it does deny multiple castings of a card, and every deck is playing 4-ofs generally, so he has excellent utility. Maybe a few of him in the main can help gain some tempo, although playing at instant speed is generally the best way to gain tempo.
Dimensional Infiltrator was used in a UR Flyers list where the tempo list was supplemented with burn spells to dome the opponent alongside the flash flyers and counterspells used. Because it had the direct support of burn, the Infiltrator was an acceptable 2CMC flyer that gets above the ground crew. I don't think that it's as good here because it lacks the tribal synergy and it's ability is not that useful in comparison of the other creatures that we have the option of running.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Fiend will be my other non spirit in the deck. It's just good enough to mitigate the downside.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
I mean isn't that something people should be exploring? You just get to a point where you can counter every mana or less spell once per turn. I'm thinking Shepard is at least worth a 2 of just for the off chance that you can make this happen. Or heck you can even keep things tapped down with the tap guys.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
1 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
2 Reflector Mage
3 Elder Deep-Fiend
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Nebelgast Herald
4 Rattlechains
4 Selfless Spirit
4 Spell Queller
2 Clash of Wills
3 Essence Flux
2 Ojutai's Command
3 Unsubstantiate
Lands
7 Island
7 Plains
2 Meandering River
4 Port Town
4 Prairie Stream
4 Gisela, the Broken Blade
3 Declaration in Stone
2 Silkwrap
2 Dispel
2 Negate
2 Collective Effort
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Dispel is important for Collected Company and Secure the Wastes mainly. I'd side them in against Bant, BW Control, and Blue Control if they come back.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles