I don't see why there'd be any objection to running goblin dark-dwellers. The fact that it gives the opponent a use for their removal is trumped by the card advantage (and card selection with a big graveyard) it provides. It furthers your game plan by rebuying a draw spell, removal, or even a harmless offering that was discarded to tormenting voice earlier in the game. GDD is all upside it seems.
I agree with the use of Goblin Dark-Dwellers. It's too good of a card to not run in my opinion, and despite turning on removal, is a pretty good back up plan.
One thing I see in common with most of these lists are something that I feel my deck doesnt particularly mind very much, losing the combo. It seems like the decks presented are either 100% all in combo, or just using combo as a back up plan.
I want my deck to be a full on Combo deck, but not at all cost. For instance, the Combo will be my #1 priority, and I will be aiming to achieve it as often as possible. However, due to the nature/risk of the combo (You Lose the Game), I am 100% fine with the opponent killing Pact. We have 3 more to try again, AND they are essentially spending their cards saving us. The great thing about this deck as I see it is even if you dont get the combo kill, you are still grinding out incredible value. In addition, I'm trying to build it mainly so that my gameplan for achieving the combo kill is the same gameplan I would use without the combo. Even without the Pact kill, I'd still be using discard to disrupt, and a mix of burn/GDD to kill. Pact adds in both burn and discard, and is a must deal with threat.
So while I consider myself primarily a Combo Deck, it has an effective back up plan that compliments the combo kill playstyle.
* It's by nature grindy and controlling.
* It fits into any non-agressive list that can handle the 4th trigger.
* It allows a deadly win-con like any combo deck, only that it requires a backup by hand disruption (or counters).
* it doesn't care about removal, unless it's a Dromokas Command, in which case it can be protected by Oaths.
A deck that includes Demonic Pact could benefit from all of the above synergies.
Do you worry about beeing out-valued by running Harmless Offering? Well, then include a discard outlet that makes dead cards online instead. Do you worry about discarding your Harmless offering that is dead this turn but might come online in 4-5 turns from now? No worries, just include Goblin Dark-dwellers.
If I'm taking a list to an event, I will take all these aspects into account.
Anyone who thinks this deck can be played like spliter twin or other insta-win combos are mistaken. The nature of Pact is that the critical moment happens 4 turns after you play the card.
2 out of the 3 major threats to the combo can be beaten with Dispel, and honestly I think that since we're trying to win with this combo, Dispel is very MB playable as a 4-of. It answers pretty much everything our opponent will throw at us when the time comes to actually "gift" them the Pact, and protects the pact against most of the removal that can otherwise hit it in standard ATM. I love Grixis as the basis for this deck. Duress works great with Dispel too. Pack your 3 and 4 drop slots with Radiant Flames and Languish to keep the board clean, and everything 2 and under with single-target spot removal. Throw in a couple Murders as a catch-all for bigger creatures that cheap red removal can't handle. I think we only need 1 or 2 Harmless Offering in the deck, but 4 Pact is fine as long as we run some Dark Petitions to tutor it out. Jace, VP and Thing in the Ice both seem like great creatures for the deck, I don't really see anything else being needed or even better than either of these.
There's that nice new utility card Collective Brutality that will let us dump extra Pacts if we need to, same with Jace VP. Both slot nicely into the 2-drop section, along with that sorcery speed deal 3 damage spell coming in ENM, can't think of the name of it, and perhaps some Negates and Clash of Wills to help round out the counter package.
Dispel is definitely one of the best reasons to go Grixis. If I did to try-color, it would be a splash blue for dispel. Beyond that though and three color radiant flames, I wouldn't really bring much from blue main board.
Jace VP doesn't really seem good in this deck imo. All the removal gets him too, he doesn't really do much that normal card draw doesn't in this matchup. We already have 8+ ways in RB to discard, and could easily do more. TiTi seems more like a SB card to me. Fevered Visions actually seems pretty useful, draws deeper, could possibly ping some, but not likely. Also provides extra enchants for d command.
I think about the best form possible to get 2-0 games with this deck, on Gameday perhaps, since the deck should be an unknown quantity.
Game 1 with a low number of Harmless MD we should go for normal kill if possible, keeping the combo hidden so they don't bring in enchantment hate post SB
Game 2 we need to bring more offering since most decks will remove some of their removal and bring in counters / disruption.
Any thoughts on sideboarding? Maybe we should view 4 Pact + 4 Offering in our 75 rather than maindeck alone..
Trying to have a few angle post sideboard, siding in GDD after the opponent side out their removal, adding Sorin if we see lack of planeswalker removal, disruption package for control decks, another Ruinous Path for planeswalker, and Virulent Plague since every black deck have them SB ;p
I feel like this deck would have better luck doing the combo kill game1 then switching to something else game2. Perhaps bring in more creatures and go for a more midrange method.
I feel like this deck would have better luck doing the combo kill game1 then switching to something else game2. Perhaps bring in more creatures and go for a more midrange method.
How many deck plays enchantment hate in sideboard? Honest question. Is it really that prevalient?
Yeah, there aren't too many decks with enchantment hate, however the ones that do usually main deck it. However we have an advantage that we're coming as an unknown, and going into the game knowing how to protect the combo. They don't know what's happening right away, and hopefully until it's too late.
The main reason I said game1 combo game2 creatures or something else is because if ou only run GDD, they're likely to side out a lot of creature removal. I just always like to switch it up.
I've been goldfishing with a build for this combo inside a season's past shell. Go -All creatures + discard, my list is something like:
4x Demonic Pact
2x Harmless Offering
1x Season's Past
4x Dark Petition
4x Languish
3x Radiant Flames
2x Ultimate Price
2x Grasp of Darkness
3x Duress
2x Transgress
1x Collective Brutality
3x Painful Truths
3x Skeletal Scrying
( Ruinous path still in the maybe on the MB, a definite on the SB )
Idea is to activate discard mode for pact as the 2nd to the last mode, then discard additional card if needed before harmless offering. Plan fails, wipe your way out then season's past. Brute force the combo to happen. SB plan is to shift deck strat to season's past.
My take on Grixis version. I found Chilling Grasp to be very effective against all creature based decks. It buys you lots of time to setup your combo.
You might want to swap some creature removals with Duress or Transgress if your local meta is more control based.
So far from my testings, I only find difficulties against Bant Company (with 4 dromokas & 4 Spell Queller!), but the plethora of removals really numb their threats. It just takes longer to win compared to other decks.
One thing I see in common with most of these lists are something that I feel my deck doesnt particularly mind very much, losing the combo. It seems like the decks presented are either 100% all in combo, or just using combo as a back up plan.
I want my deck to be a full on Combo deck, but not at all cost. For instance, the Combo will be my #1 priority, and I will be aiming to achieve it as often as possible. However, due to the nature/risk of the combo (You Lose the Game), I am 100% fine with the opponent killing Pact. We have 3 more to try again, AND they are essentially spending their cards saving us. The great thing about this deck as I see it is even if you dont get the combo kill, you are still grinding out incredible value. In addition, I'm trying to build it mainly so that my gameplan for achieving the combo kill is the same gameplan I would use without the combo. Even without the Pact kill, I'd still be using discard to disrupt, and a mix of burn/GDD to kill. Pact adds in both burn and discard, and is a must deal with threat.
So while I consider myself primarily a Combo Deck, it has an effective back up plan that compliments the combo kill playstyle.
* It's by nature grindy and controlling.
* It fits into any non-agressive list that can handle the 4th trigger.
* It allows a deadly win-con like any combo deck, only that it requires a backup by hand disruption (or counters).
* it doesn't care about removal, unless it's a Dromokas Command, in which case it can be protected by Oaths.
A deck that includes Demonic Pact could benefit from all of the above synergies.
Do you worry about beeing out-valued by running Harmless Offering? Well, then include a discard outlet that makes dead cards online instead. Do you worry about discarding your Harmless offering that is dead this turn but might come online in 4-5 turns from now? No worries, just include Goblin Dark-dwellers.
If I'm taking a list to an event, I will take all these aspects into account.
Anyone who thinks this deck can be played like spliter twin or other insta-win combos are mistaken. The nature of Pact is that the critical moment happens 4 turns after you play the card.
There's that nice new utility card Collective Brutality that will let us dump extra Pacts if we need to, same with Jace VP. Both slot nicely into the 2-drop section, along with that sorcery speed deal 3 damage spell coming in ENM, can't think of the name of it, and perhaps some Negates and Clash of Wills to help round out the counter package.
Jace VP doesn't really seem good in this deck imo. All the removal gets him too, he doesn't really do much that normal card draw doesn't in this matchup. We already have 8+ ways in RB to discard, and could easily do more. TiTi seems more like a SB card to me. Fevered Visions actually seems pretty useful, draws deeper, could possibly ping some, but not likely. Also provides extra enchants for d command.
Game 1 with a low number of Harmless MD we should go for normal kill if possible, keeping the combo hidden so they don't bring in enchantment hate post SB
Game 2 we need to bring more offering since most decks will remove some of their removal and bring in counters / disruption.
Any thoughts on sideboarding? Maybe we should view 4 Pact + 4 Offering in our 75 rather than maindeck alone..
4 Demonic Pact
2 Dark Petition
2 Harmless Offering
2 Read The Bones
3 Anguished Unmaking
1 Angelic Purge
4 Languish
2 Radiant Flames
4 Galvanic Bombardment
2 Ruinous Path
4 Collective Brutality
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
Lands (26)
4 Foreboding Ruins
4 Smoldering Marsh
4 Evolving Wilds
2 Caves of Koilos
2 Battlefield Forge
4 Shambling Vents
1 Plains
3 Swamp
2 Mountain
4 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
2 Harmless Offering
3 Duress
2 Transgress the Mind
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Ruinous Path
2 Virulent Plague
Trying to have a few angle post sideboard, siding in GDD after the opponent side out their removal, adding Sorin if we see lack of planeswalker removal, disruption package for control decks, another Ruinous Path for planeswalker, and Virulent Plague since every black deck have them SB ;p
How many deck plays enchantment hate in sideboard? Honest question. Is it really that prevalient?
Link for full breakdown:
http://deckstats.net/decks/61748/527332-grixis
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Foreboding Ruins
1 Island
2 Mountain
3 Shivan Reef
3 Smoldering Marsh
3 Sunken Hollow
4 Swamp
2 Wandering Fumarole
1 Collective Brutality
2 Dark Petition
4 Demonic Pact
3 Duress
2 Harmless Offering
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Languish
2 Negate
1 Oath of Chandra
3 Oath of Jace
2 Radiant Flames
2 Ruinous Path
1 Silumgar's Command
2 Tormenting Voice
2 Ultimate Price
3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
1. Bant Company & Bant Humans* qty 4
2. GW Tokens* qty 4
3. Nahiri decks qty 3-4
4. BW Control* qty 1-3
Decks with sideboard enchantment hate:
1. GBx Seasons Past* (usually x2 Naturalize or less)
2. Jund Midrange* qty 1-2
* indicates instant enchantment removal
Please add to the list
The main reason I said game1 combo game2 creatures or something else is because if ou only run GDD, they're likely to side out a lot of creature removal. I just always like to switch it up.
4x Demonic Pact
2x Harmless Offering
1x Season's Past
4x Dark Petition
4x Languish
3x Radiant Flames
2x Ultimate Price
2x Grasp of Darkness
3x Duress
2x Transgress
1x Collective Brutality
3x Painful Truths
3x Skeletal Scrying
( Ruinous path still in the maybe on the MB, a definite on the SB )
Idea is to activate discard mode for pact as the 2nd to the last mode, then discard additional card if needed before harmless offering. Plan fails, wipe your way out then season's past. Brute force the combo to happen. SB plan is to shift deck strat to season's past.
comments?
You might want to swap some creature removals with Duress or Transgress if your local meta is more control based.
So far from my testings, I only find difficulties against Bant Company (with 4 dromokas & 4 Spell Queller!), but the plethora of removals really numb their threats. It just takes longer to win compared to other decks.
1x Blighted Fen
3x Choked Estuary
4x Evolving Wilds
1x Foreboding Ruins
1x Island
1x Mountain
2x Shivan Reef
3x Smoldering Marsh
4x Sunken Hollow
4x Swamp
1x Wandering Fumarole
4x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Sorceries
2x Dark Petition
2x Negate
2x Harmless Offering
2x Languish
2x Radiant Flames
2x Read the Bones
2x Ruinous Path
4x Anticipate
3x Chilling Grasp
2x Fiery Impulse
1x Grasp of Darkness
2x Silumgar's Command
1x Ultimate Price
Enchantments
4x Demonic Pact