they cost 3. so it really is one or the other in a deck like zoo.
I have to agree. Zoo tops out at 3 CMC, and it usually only wants a few cards at that spot. But it is more of a metagame call. Against Aggro, Burning-Tree Shaman would be better because its higher toughness, but against control, Call of the Herd is better because it is essentially two creatures for one card.
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Good ideas. I'm definitely going to try out browbeat (using 3) and compare it to wheel of fate (using 2). I might sub out Savannah Lions against other red decks, they just die too fast to shocks and seals. However it is a fair trade off-- one mana 2/1 for a one mana 2 dmg but initiative is lost.
I agree with the analysis of the Burning-Tree Shaman versus other aggro decks. If they want to kill it they have to use a char and thus hurt themselves or waste two shocks/sealed flames. If Call of the Herd is used from the graveyard can it be countered?
What do you guys think of serrated arrows as a sideboard card? 4 is pricey but saves 3 shocks and rids the way of the low-cost blockers and forces opponents to use damage prevention.
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@Deadman- not to nitpick, but your Tamanoa does not counteract the damage from the shocklands. you're paying life with them, not taking damage, but otherwise you are correct, it is a nice card if you're running a more control/burn oriented version of zoo. It would actually fit the mana curve of that sligh oriented build mentioned earlier if you don't like running the burning trees.
Is there anyway to help this deck in turns 5 and onwards? It seems to run out of steam if the opponent is not dead. In most instances slow decks will be dead by then, but bad draws can prolong the game.
It's like: Zero cards in hand and if the pickups are mana, it's GG for me. I tried Vipers, they are very useful but only in moderation (two in deck).
Wheel of fate? BUt the 3 used to cast it during turns 3-4 are a waste because i'd rather use that mana for a watchwolf/helix/giant solitude.
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Is there anyway to help this deck in turns 5 and onwards? It seems to run out of steam if the opponent is not dead. In most instances slow decks will be dead by then, but bad draws can prolong the game.
It's like: Zero cards in hand and if the pickups are mana, it's GG for me. I tried Vipers, they are very useful but only in moderation (two in deck).
Wheel of fate? BUt the 3 used to cast it during turns 3-4 are a waste because i'd rather use that mana for a watchwolf/helix/giant solitude.
well, like all low end aggro decks, zoo is plagued by running out of gas if the game lasts. but against most decks, you don't need gas by then. barring a really bad draw from zoo or a really good one from some other deck they should be easily within range of a topdecked burn spell or 2. rather than concentrate on giving the deck more late game power, i'd suggest just concentrating on killing your opponent as fast as possible and not having to worry about the late game. i know it doesn't always play out that way, but that's the same for any deck. sometimes your stratagy just doesn't work out but you are better off sticking to it than diluting your deck with a back up plan.
There are cards you can run to replenish your hand - Wheel of Fate, Browbeat, et cetera - but they water down the deck's efficiency in casting burn and cheap threats, and go against the core strategy.
There are cards you can run to replenish your hand - Wheel of Fate, Browbeat, et cetera - but they water down the deck's efficiency in casting burn and cheap threats, and go against the core strategy.
Plus, would you ever want to topdeck the Wheel?
True, true. You guys are 100% correct. I just play tested with two wheels tonight and they weren't that useful. I only managed to play it once and had it in my hand several times.
On the other hand, serrated arrows weren't bad. Four mana is a pest if I could get out a solifuge instead but the 3 shots saved me three burn spells/three turns of being blocked.
I'm having problems dealing with martyr of sands. If it comes out turn two, my opponent still has one mana untapped to sac it. If I shock it, would the life gain still happen with 'last in first out', instant versus effect?
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I'm having problems dealing with martyr of sands. If it comes out turn two, my opponent still has one mana untapped to sac it. If I shock it, would the life gain still happen with 'last in first out', instant versus effect?
That's Why you should side board Sudden Shock.
But, If you are going against a life gain deck with hierarch, martyr and fetters, it's already a very bad match... (The GWR Control I used to play rape almost all gruul and zoo or any aggro deck.....although i still love zoo the most.)
I'm looking to playtest against Zoo before States. So if any of you could help me out with my testing, then please pm me so we can work out a playtest time. Thanks.
What do you do against mono green with 2/1 create that has non-basic land walk + stacking enchantment that gives its creatures + */* equal to lands? Kill it before it comes out?
What do you do against mono green with 2/1 create that has non-basic land walk + stacking enchantment that gives its creatures + */* equal to lands? Kill it before it comes out?
mono green? you have burn and they don't. even if they start stack stuff on ledgwalker or something it's very easy to just race them.
and kokusho rotates out of the format when time spiral comes in, and even if it didn't koku is no real threat to zoo, you just beat past him and kill your opponent with burn.
not too many new or unheard of card choices. the burning-trees are, as already discussed, a metagame call. the sideboard is pretty solid now and the mana base is about perfect(the deck would love 2 more stomping grounds but yeah).
so any comments or ideas for this build?
wouldn't thornscape battlemage in the board be good? It kinda deals with the paladin and other pro red problems
well paladin isn't really all that much of a problem imo. sure, he holds off one guy, but that's about all he does, and if his 3 mana creature is regulated to blocking kird ape while watchwolf gets through it's fine by me.
i might give it a test tho, as it does more than one thing, but it does tend to cost 4 to do it, which is a problem.
also, now that i've thought about it my board is missing bathe in lights, which are rather nessessary but i'm not sure what to cut for them. maybe solifuges...
Just some questions / thoughts about the deck and some card choices (sorry, this might get to be long)...
MAGUS OF THE SCROLL
Assuming you're basing you're deck of the 20/20/20 build, why does Magus of the Scroll count as a creature (other than the obvious)?
- He's a great replacement for Isumaru considering casting cost, but to me Magus isn't a creature, he's a burn spell. If i were putting together a decklist, i wouldn't put Cursed Scroll as a creature.
- Threre's no time i want to send him across the board to deal 1, save for a VERY few times when it might actually matter.
So to me, it turns Zoo into a 16/24/20 build. So i guess my question is, why are we putting Magus in the place of a creature and not a burn spell?
RIFT BOLT
What the general consensus with Rift Bolt? I haven't tested one single game with Rift at all, but i don't like it.
- Against Aggro, it clears out early blockers or does 3 damage to my opponent for R.
- Against Remand in Aggro/Control, it doesn't hurt as bad as one of my other spells getting remanded, and one turn + R isn't that big of a tempo loss.
- Against U/x Control. If they stabalize, I would never want to top deck this card. I wouldn't want to suspend it to give them one more turn, and sorcery speed 3 damage for 2R just isnt that good.
- Rift Bolt reminds me of Browbeat to an extent. If i have Rift suspended, my opponent isn't goina cast a creature he wants to keep around (Orhan Viper, Dark Confidant, etc). Giving them the knowledge that 3 damage is about to be dealt, they can play around the card. So I'm basically giving my opponent the choice of what i am targeting. Can any one confirm / deny my suumptions?
VS. DRAGONSTORM
First, I'm not all that scared of the current build. It isn't fast enough to race Zoo. But more and more people are leaning towards a more conrtol oriented version which might slow down our clock. Also, in case they DO cast dragonstorm with a storm count of 3, their 4 Bogardan Hellkite mean good game. They're don't seem to be many decent SB options in red, white or green. But there are 2... Parallectric Feedback and Honorable Passage.
- Parallectric Feedback would deal 9 damage in response to Dragonstorm, but the 3R is steep, especially when holding it in your hand wondering if theyr'e going to go off next turn means your not using your mana to cast anything else. Also, being a sideboard card, you want more than just one use for it (the only other standard legal cards that are good targets for it are Akroma and SSS).
- Honorable Passage deals 5 damage to them in response to the first Hellkite that comes into play, for just 1W. 5 damage SHOULD be enough to kill them at that point in the game. This is a little more versatile in the fact that it can come in verse any deck that runs red, including the mirror (it turns their Char into a 6 point burn spell aimed at them for 1W, or fogs a Giant Growth'd Kird Ape or Scab-Clan Mauler and deals 5 or 6 to them).
But, the big question is, will Dragonstorm decks show up enough (and be good enough to be at the top tables) to warrant a spot in the very tight SB against them?
GIANT GROWTH
New environments tend to be aggro dominated, so why has Giant Growth found its way to the sideboard? It's either 3 damage, a way to save one of your creatures, or a way to kill a much bigger creature all for G. I jsut don't see how that could be bad in an unknown environment.
CALL OF THE HERD
While I'm not questioning this card is great (it's one of my favorite cards), is it really that great in Zoo? Since I started playing Zoo, I always thought this deck was based around undercosted creatures, and well costed burn. While there is definite card advantage with Call of the Herd, it isn't exactly undercosted. Is it's advantages agaisnt control, after wrath, and as a 4cc flashback spell THAT good that it's worth a main deck slot?
Thank for reading through all that, and I welcome any thoughts / feedback.
I'm surprised no one here is thinking of Icatian Javelineers. Seems like a great 1 drop that is in some ways actually better than Mogg Fanatic, as it can take out a Savanah Lions EOT or w/e and still be alive.
Seems to me that Call of the Herd is better against Control than the BTS but obviously bettter against other aggro. Tough call, but I think Call of the Herd's card advantage is more suited to Wrath of God which I think WILL be used a lot at top tables across the country.
What about Orcish Librarian for the late game? It doesn't net you card advantage but you basically re order 4 cards on your library every turn, that would help a lot in terms of making sure you top deck gas all the time.
Why does Magus of the Scroll count as a creature? Well, it say creature for one, but let's examine what creatures are in aggro decks: Reusuable burn spells. What is Majus of the Scroll? A reuseable burn spell. Also, he still swings on turn 2 when there are no other creatures in play and he was your only 1 drop turn 1.
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ak1200- i think you are seriously overrating magus of the scroll. i'm not saying it's a bad card by any means, but it's no cursed scroll. scroll had the prime advantage of being an artifact, making it playable in any deck. also, it was much harder to kill and it can tap the turn you play it. but seriously? you say it's a great replacement for isamaru, but i'm just not seeing it. in my testing i rarely find myself activating it. if it was isamaru it'd be sending across for 2 every turn without paying anything, and with magus it costs 3 to deal 2 and even that is situational. have you really been activating magus that much in your testing? i tend to find myself with far better uses of my mana than activation magus of the scroll, like playing char or bts or lightning helix and other such.
I think that Magus of the Scroll is getting kinda overhyped... In aggro he fits... but he's no Hound. He's mainly just a target... but late game (which zoo shouldn't really have) he's good. They should be dead by turn 6 the absolute latest. I'm really puzzled by people not running BTS. Here's what my deck looks like
Creatures
4 Kird Ape
4 Savannah Lions
4 Scab-clan Mauler
4 Watchwolf
3 Burning Tree Shaman
2 Magus of the Scroll
4 Seal of Fire
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Volcanic Hammer
4 Char
12 Duals
3 Gemstone Mine
5 Pains
I think more than 2-3 magus of the scroll is too much... Icatian Javelineers is an interesting idea... It's something that I think warrants some play testing.
On the browbeat subject... Zoo should have won by time it is cast... BUT it has helped a few times. Because let's think... what normally replaces this sorcery... another sorcery. Yes hammer can hit creatures... but so can our other 16 burn spells. I don't know, I guess it's a preference move.
4 Rift Bolt
4 Shock
4 Giant Growth
4 Char
3 Seal of Fire
1 Demonfire
The 12 usual duals, but less painlands now.
I noticed giant growth is really, really useful. If you get two, it's an easy 10 damage in two turns. If they have chump blockers the seals and shocks take them out, if not I just spam them 3rd. I only had problems with Paladin En-Vec and decks with green shadow/landwalk aggro. Solar hasn't been a problem unless the deck is stuck at 2-3 mana by turn 4-5.
I love how Zoo destroys an opponent when it works but I hate how you are totally helpless if you have a bad draw. I have no idea what to play in the states now.
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MAGUS OF THE SCROLL Assuming you're basing you're deck of the 20/20/20 build, why does Magus of the Scroll count as a creature (other than the obvious)? - He's a great replacement for Isumaru considering casting cost, but to me Magus isn't a creature, he's a burn spell. If i were putting together a decklist, i wouldn't put Cursed Scroll as a creature. - Threre's no time i want to send him across the board to deal 1, save for a VERY few times when it might actually matter.
So to me, it turns Zoo into a 16/24/20 build. So i guess my question is, why are we putting Magus in the place of a creature and not a burn spell?
Magus doesn't really fill the role of either very well. In my testing I probably activated magus 2 or 3 times in total. I generally had better things to do with my mana than activate him. I think Call of the Herd/BTS or Icatian Javelineers is better in this slot.
RIFT BOLT
What the general consensus with Rift Bolt? I haven't tested one single game with Rift at all, but i don't like it.
- Against Aggro, it clears out early blockers or does 3 damage to my opponent for R.
- Against Remand in Aggro/Control, it doesn't hurt as bad as one of my other spells getting remanded, and one turn + R isn't that big of a tempo loss.
- Against U/x Control. If they stabalize, I would never want to top deck this card. I wouldn't want to suspend it to give them one more turn, and sorcery speed 3 damage for 2R just isnt that good.
- Rift Bolt reminds me of Browbeat to an extent. If i have Rift suspended, my opponent isn't goina cast a creature he wants to keep around (Orhan Viper, Dark Confidant, etc). Giving them the knowledge that 3 damage is about to be dealt, they can play around the card. So I'm basically giving my opponent the choice of what i am targeting. Can any one confirm / deny my suumptions?
Against U/x control, if they have stabilised then 'hard casting' it probably wont be too much of an issue as your probably in topdeck mode anyway. Its more susceptable to manaleak/remand/runesnag, but any other burn we ran in this slot would cost 2 or 3 anyway, and unless you are going to lose the next turn you may as well just suspend it. As for giving the opponant the knowledge of the burn, if they try to play it around it it acts as a psuedo-time walk if they are taking no action that turn. And you'll probably have another burn spell in hand to deal with the creature when the play it anyway (which would probably have gone to the face if the rift had hit the creature), so I dont see this a problem. Three damage for 1 mana? Sign me up.
VS. DRAGONSTORM
First, I'm not all that scared of the current build. It isn't fast enough to race Zoo. But more and more people are leaning towards a more conrtol oriented version which might slow down our clock. Also, in case they DO cast dragonstorm with a storm count of 3, their 4 Bogardan Hellkite mean good game. They're don't seem to be many decent SB options in red, white or green. But there are 2... Parallectric Feedback and Honorable Passage.
- Parallectric Feedback would deal 9 damage in response to Dragonstorm, but the 3R is steep, especially when holding it in your hand wondering if theyr'e going to go off next turn means your not using your mana to cast anything else. Also, being a sideboard card, you want more than just one use for it (the only other standard legal cards that are good targets for it are Akroma and SSS).
- Honorable Passage deals 5 damage to them in response to the first Hellkite that comes into play, for just 1W. 5 damage SHOULD be enough to kill them at that point in the game. This is a little more versatile in the fact that it can come in verse any deck that runs red, including the mirror (it turns their Char into a 6 point burn spell aimed at them for 1W, or fogs a Giant Growth'd Kird Ape or Scab-Clan Mauler and deals 5 or 6 to them).
But, the big question is, will Dragonstorm decks show up enough (and be good enough to be at the top tables) to warrant a spot in the very tight SB against them?
Both are good solutions, though I would say that paralletic feedback is the better card as it can give a late game 'oops I win' effect against control when they drop their win condition. From experience the opponant tends to be around 8 or 9 life when they drop dragonstorm rather than 4 or 5, and due to the pain lands even the damage from 3 dragons could quite easily kill us (they can grab some hunted dragons too to push the extra couple of points if necessary) so we cant rely on just hitting them for the 5 and burning them out next turn. Hitting the four mana needed is always a bit unreliable too though... The matchup is really a race. I'd be happier to see a more controlling build as this would give us longer to get to four lands and sit on the feedback while bringing them within range.
GIANT GROWTH
New environments tend to be aggro dominated, so why has Giant Growth found its way to the sideboard? It's either 3 damage, a way to save one of your creatures, or a way to kill a much bigger creature all for G. I jsut don't see how that could be bad in an unknown environment.
A meta-call, but I am actually expecting to see a lot of control around from what I have seen so far, and Giant Growth is subpar in those matchups. Besides, isn't Might of Old Krosa better?
CALL OF THE HERD
While I'm not questioning this card is great (it's one of my favorite cards), is it really that great in Zoo? Since I started playing Zoo, I always thought this deck was based around undercosted creatures, and well costed burn. While there is definite card advantage with Call of the Herd, it isn't exactly undercosted. Is it's advantages agaisnt control, after wrath, and as a 4cc flashback spell THAT good that it's worth a main deck slot?
I think this is better than BTS in the deck. Admittedly, it dies to last gasp/repeal/hammer, but you have a another lined up to take its place. Gives some late game staying power and wins back some CA against ***.
ak1200- i think you are seriously overrating magus of the scroll. i'm not saying it's a bad card by any means, but it's no cursed scroll. scroll had the prime advantage of being an artifact, making it playable in any deck. also, it was much harder to kill and it can tap the turn you play it. but seriously? you say it's a great replacement for isamaru, but i'm just not seeing it. in my testing i rarely find myself activating it. if it was isamaru it'd be sending across for 2 every turn without paying anything, and with magus it costs 3 to deal 2 and even that is situational. have you really been activating magus that much in your testing? i tend to find myself with far better uses of my mana than activation magus of the scroll, like playing char or bts or lightning helix and other such.
Flaming_Sword: I might not have expressed myself clearly. I believe Magus of the Scroll is a great replacement CASTING COST wise. Meaning, one of the better post-rotation one drops that COULD fit in Zoo. I liked the tempo of old Zoo, with the possibility for 12 different creature one drops to apply early preasure, which Magus DOES NOT DO. He is great in a mid to long game, but playing Zoo I never want a mid to late game (As you brought up, during play testing the earliest I'd activate Magus was turn five or six, an earler I had better things to do with my mana).
Magus doesn't really fill the role of either very well. In my testing I probably activated magus 2 or 3 times in total. I generally had better things to do with my mana than activate him. I think Call of the Herd/BTS or Icatian Javelineers is better in this slot.
Wizzpig: While i agree that Magus isn't the right fit, I REALLY want a one drop in that spot. I don't think Icatian Javelineers is the right fit, though. His ablility is great, especially picking off early Birds of Paradise or Llanowar elves vs G/x, but his ability is counter aggresive. Because it's a tap ability, you either attack of ping, and for some reason i just really don't like that. I've started testing Skarrgan Pit-Skulk. It's almost useless as a turn one drop, but turn 2 on he should be Isumaru (with a barely useful ability). To me, Zoo has always been about playing undercosted creatures, and a 2/2 for G fits right in.
Against U/x control, if they have stabilised then 'hard casting' it probably wont be too much of an issue as your probably in topdeck mode anyway. Its more susceptable to manaleak/remand/runesnag, but any other burn we ran in this slot would cost 2 or 3 anyway, and unless you are going to lose the next turn you may as well just suspend it.
As for giving the opponant the knowledge of the burn, if they try to play it around it it acts as a psuedo-time walk if they are taking no action that turn. And you'll probably have another burn spell in hand to deal with the creature when the play it anyway (which would probably have gone to the face if the rift had hit the creature), so I dont see this a problem. Three damage for 1 mana? Sign me up.
You are 100% correct, Rift bolt NEEDS to be in this deck. the early preasure it helps apply, and the fact an opponent might play around it makes it a no-brainer. But, right now I'm playing it as a 3-of, because I do have some top deck concerns about it.
Both are good solutions, though I would say that paralletic feedback is the better card as it can give a late game 'oops I win' effect against control when they drop their win condition. From experience the opponant tends to be around 8 or 9 life when they drop dragonstorm rather than 4 or 5, and due to the pain lands even the damage from 3 dragons could quite easily kill us (they can grab some hunted dragons too to push the extra couple of points if necessary) so we cant rely on just hitting them for the 5 and burning them out next turn. Hitting the four mana needed is always a bit unreliable too though... The matchup is really a race. I'd be happier to see a more controlling build as this would give us longer to get to four lands and sit on the feedback while bringing them within range.
After playtesting more post board vs Dragonstorm, I agree that Parallectric Feedback is the correct route to take. Turns 1-3 you can still be as aggresive as needed, apply a lot of early preasure, and bring their life total down to burnable range, and in turns 4+ keep attacking, wait on Dragonstorm, and Parallectric Feedback in response, winning the game. The only problem is getting the 4th land early enough for Feedback to matter.
A meta-call, but I am actually expecting to see a lot of control around from what I have seen so far, and Giant Growth is subpar in those matchups. Besides, isn't Might of Old Krosa better?
I totally agree on the meta-call, but i believe that Growth is better in every case, unless they have NO blockers at all. casting Might of Old Krosa during your first main lets them chump block a big guy (not as bad if its Scab-Clan Mauler). Casting Might of Old Krosa after blockers have been declared only pushes 2 more damage through, where in the same situation growth would have been one more damage for the same cost. Just because growth is ALWAYS three, I think it goes in before Might of Old Krosa.
I think (Call of the Herd) is better than BTS in the deck. Admittedly, it dies to last gasp/repeal/hammer, but you have a another lined up to take its place. Gives some late game staying power and wins back some CA against ***.
I agree on Call over BTS, the advantages of running it are great. Mana Allowing, you have a 3/3 turn 3 followed by an (automatic) 3/3 turn 4. Verse Wrath of God it's great recovery. Verse Counter, they effectively have to counter it twice.
I have to agree. Zoo tops out at 3 CMC, and it usually only wants a few cards at that spot. But it is more of a metagame call. Against Aggro, Burning-Tree Shaman would be better because its higher toughness, but against control, Call of the Herd is better because it is essentially two creatures for one card.
I agree with the analysis of the Burning-Tree Shaman versus other aggro decks. If they want to kill it they have to use a char and thus hurt themselves or waste two shocks/sealed flames. If Call of the Herd is used from the graveyard can it be countered?
What do you guys think of serrated arrows as a sideboard card? 4 is pricey but saves 3 shocks and rids the way of the low-cost blockers and forces opponents to use damage prevention.
U/G Aggro-Control
W/R Aggro
GG Billytron
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Not necessarily. I understand exactly what you're saying, but, you can still run both.
For instance, boarding out BTS for CotH.
It's like: Zero cards in hand and if the pickups are mana, it's GG for me. I tried Vipers, they are very useful but only in moderation (two in deck).
Wheel of fate? BUt the 3 used to cast it during turns 3-4 are a waste because i'd rather use that mana for a watchwolf/helix/giant solitude.
U/G Aggro-Control
W/R Aggro
GG Billytron
well, like all low end aggro decks, zoo is plagued by running out of gas if the game lasts. but against most decks, you don't need gas by then. barring a really bad draw from zoo or a really good one from some other deck they should be easily within range of a topdecked burn spell or 2. rather than concentrate on giving the deck more late game power, i'd suggest just concentrating on killing your opponent as fast as possible and not having to worry about the late game. i know it doesn't always play out that way, but that's the same for any deck. sometimes your stratagy just doesn't work out but you are better off sticking to it than diluting your deck with a back up plan.
There are cards you can run to replenish your hand - Wheel of Fate, Browbeat, et cetera - but they water down the deck's efficiency in casting burn and cheap threats, and go against the core strategy.
Plus, would you ever want to topdeck the Wheel?
True, true. You guys are 100% correct. I just play tested with two wheels tonight and they weren't that useful. I only managed to play it once and had it in my hand several times.
On the other hand, serrated arrows weren't bad. Four mana is a pest if I could get out a solifuge instead but the 3 shots saved me three burn spells/three turns of being blocked.
I'm having problems dealing with martyr of sands. If it comes out turn two, my opponent still has one mana untapped to sac it. If I shock it, would the life gain still happen with 'last in first out', instant versus effect?
U/G Aggro-Control
W/R Aggro
GG Billytron
That's Why you should side board Sudden Shock.
But, If you are going against a life gain deck with hierarch, martyr and fetters, it's already a very bad match... (The GWR Control I used to play rape almost all gruul and zoo or any aggro deck.....although i still love zoo the most.)
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That and a Drowned Rusalka that was used to sac itself to bring in the Hulk and Kokusho_the_Evening_Star. Ouch.
U/G Aggro-Control
W/R Aggro
GG Billytron
mono green? you have burn and they don't. even if they start stack stuff on ledgwalker or something it's very easy to just race them.
and kokusho rotates out of the format when time spiral comes in, and even if it didn't koku is no real threat to zoo, you just beat past him and kill your opponent with burn.
4 kird ape
4 savanna lions
2 magus of the scroll
4 watchwolf
4 scab clan mauler
3 burning-tree shaman
3 seal of fire
4 rift bolt
4 lightning helix
3 volcanic hammer
4 char
4 sacred foundry
4 temple garden
4 gemstone mine
2 forest
1 battlefield forge
1 brushland
1 karplusion forest
3 call of the herd
3 giant solifuge
3 krosan grip
3 pacifism
2 moldervine cloak
1 volcanic hammer
not too many new or unheard of card choices. the burning-trees are, as already discussed, a metagame call. the sideboard is pretty solid now and the mana base is about perfect(the deck would love 2 more stomping grounds but yeah).
so any comments or ideas for this build?
Standard
WBR Mardu Vehicles RBW
Modern
WUBRG Amulet Titan GRBUW
well paladin isn't really all that much of a problem imo. sure, he holds off one guy, but that's about all he does, and if his 3 mana creature is regulated to blocking kird ape while watchwolf gets through it's fine by me.
i might give it a test tho, as it does more than one thing, but it does tend to cost 4 to do it, which is a problem.
also, now that i've thought about it my board is missing bathe in lights, which are rather nessessary but i'm not sure what to cut for them. maybe solifuges...
MAGUS OF THE SCROLL
Assuming you're basing you're deck of the 20/20/20 build, why does Magus of the Scroll count as a creature (other than the obvious)?
- He's a great replacement for Isumaru considering casting cost, but to me Magus isn't a creature, he's a burn spell. If i were putting together a decklist, i wouldn't put Cursed Scroll as a creature.
- Threre's no time i want to send him across the board to deal 1, save for a VERY few times when it might actually matter.
4 Savannah Lions
4 Kird Ape
4 Watchwolf
4 Scab-Clan Mauler
Burn (24)
4 Lightning Helix
4 Char
4 Volcanic Hammer
4 Rift Bolt
4 Seal of Fire
4 Magus of the scroll
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple Garden
4 Battlefield Forge
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Karplusan Forest
So to me, it turns Zoo into a 16/24/20 build. So i guess my question is, why are we putting Magus in the place of a creature and not a burn spell?
RIFT BOLT
What the general consensus with Rift Bolt? I haven't tested one single game with Rift at all, but i don't like it.
- Against Aggro, it clears out early blockers or does 3 damage to my opponent for R.
- Against Remand in Aggro/Control, it doesn't hurt as bad as one of my other spells getting remanded, and one turn + R isn't that big of a tempo loss.
- Against U/x Control. If they stabalize, I would never want to top deck this card. I wouldn't want to suspend it to give them one more turn, and sorcery speed 3 damage for 2R just isnt that good.
- Rift Bolt reminds me of Browbeat to an extent. If i have Rift suspended, my opponent isn't goina cast a creature he wants to keep around (Orhan Viper, Dark Confidant, etc). Giving them the knowledge that 3 damage is about to be dealt, they can play around the card. So I'm basically giving my opponent the choice of what i am targeting. Can any one confirm / deny my suumptions?
VS. DRAGONSTORM
First, I'm not all that scared of the current build. It isn't fast enough to race Zoo. But more and more people are leaning towards a more conrtol oriented version which might slow down our clock. Also, in case they DO cast dragonstorm with a storm count of 3, their 4 Bogardan Hellkite mean good game. They're don't seem to be many decent SB options in red, white or green. But there are 2... Parallectric Feedback and Honorable Passage.
- Parallectric Feedback would deal 9 damage in response to Dragonstorm, but the 3R is steep, especially when holding it in your hand wondering if theyr'e going to go off next turn means your not using your mana to cast anything else. Also, being a sideboard card, you want more than just one use for it (the only other standard legal cards that are good targets for it are Akroma and SSS).
- Honorable Passage deals 5 damage to them in response to the first Hellkite that comes into play, for just 1W. 5 damage SHOULD be enough to kill them at that point in the game. This is a little more versatile in the fact that it can come in verse any deck that runs red, including the mirror (it turns their Char into a 6 point burn spell aimed at them for 1W, or fogs a Giant Growth'd Kird Ape or Scab-Clan Mauler and deals 5 or 6 to them).
But, the big question is, will Dragonstorm decks show up enough (and be good enough to be at the top tables) to warrant a spot in the very tight SB against them?
GIANT GROWTH
New environments tend to be aggro dominated, so why has Giant Growth found its way to the sideboard? It's either 3 damage, a way to save one of your creatures, or a way to kill a much bigger creature all for G. I jsut don't see how that could be bad in an unknown environment.
CALL OF THE HERD
While I'm not questioning this card is great (it's one of my favorite cards), is it really that great in Zoo? Since I started playing Zoo, I always thought this deck was based around undercosted creatures, and well costed burn. While there is definite card advantage with Call of the Herd, it isn't exactly undercosted. Is it's advantages agaisnt control, after wrath, and as a 4cc flashback spell THAT good that it's worth a main deck slot?
Thank for reading through all that, and I welcome any thoughts / feedback.
Seems to me that Call of the Herd is better against Control than the BTS but obviously bettter against other aggro. Tough call, but I think Call of the Herd's card advantage is more suited to Wrath of God which I think WILL be used a lot at top tables across the country.
What about Orcish Librarian for the late game? It doesn't net you card advantage but you basically re order 4 cards on your library every turn, that would help a lot in terms of making sure you top deck gas all the time.
Why does Magus of the Scroll count as a creature? Well, it say creature for one, but let's examine what creatures are in aggro decks: Reusuable burn spells. What is Majus of the Scroll? A reuseable burn spell. Also, he still swings on turn 2 when there are no other creatures in play and he was your only 1 drop turn 1.
To learn you have to listen, to succeed you have to try, losing makes you better.
Creatures
4 Kird Ape
4 Savannah Lions
4 Scab-clan Mauler
4 Watchwolf
3 Burning Tree Shaman
2 Magus of the Scroll
4 Seal of Fire
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Volcanic Hammer
4 Char
12 Duals
3 Gemstone Mine
5 Pains
I think more than 2-3 magus of the scroll is too much... Icatian Javelineers is an interesting idea... It's something that I think warrants some play testing.
On the browbeat subject... Zoo should have won by time it is cast... BUT it has helped a few times. Because let's think... what normally replaces this sorcery... another sorcery. Yes hammer can hit creatures... but so can our other 16 burn spells. I don't know, I guess it's a preference move.
Oath BGUW
TPS BU
Tezz BUG
~Team Empire~
4 Watchwolves
4 Kird Apes
4 Savannah Lions
4 Giant Solifuges
4 Burning-Tree Shaman
4 Rift Bolt
4 Shock
4 Giant Growth
4 Char
3 Seal of Fire
1 Demonfire
The 12 usual duals, but less painlands now.
I noticed giant growth is really, really useful. If you get two, it's an easy 10 damage in two turns. If they have chump blockers the seals and shocks take them out, if not I just spam them 3rd. I only had problems with Paladin En-Vec and decks with green shadow/landwalk aggro. Solar hasn't been a problem unless the deck is stuck at 2-3 mana by turn 4-5.
I love how Zoo destroys an opponent when it works but I hate how you are totally helpless if you have a bad draw. I have no idea what to play in the states now.
U/G Aggro-Control
W/R Aggro
GG Billytron
Since it gives you more then 4 cards that can kill Heirchs.
4 Savannah Lions
4 Scab-clan Mauler
4 Watchwolf
4 Magus of the Scroll
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 might of old krosa
4 Char
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Flagstones of Trokair
what do you think??
turn 1 dual ape/lion
turn 2 land pump with this atack 6 damadge + 1 mana free for a creature or burn
:mad1:Apprentice of Lavamancy:mad1:
playing in standard:
Mono Black Control
(from hell):evil:
Magus doesn't really fill the role of either very well. In my testing I probably activated magus 2 or 3 times in total. I generally had better things to do with my mana than activate him. I think Call of the Herd/BTS or Icatian Javelineers is better in this slot.
Against U/x control, if they have stabilised then 'hard casting' it probably wont be too much of an issue as your probably in topdeck mode anyway. Its more susceptable to manaleak/remand/runesnag, but any other burn we ran in this slot would cost 2 or 3 anyway, and unless you are going to lose the next turn you may as well just suspend it.
As for giving the opponant the knowledge of the burn, if they try to play it around it it acts as a psuedo-time walk if they are taking no action that turn. And you'll probably have another burn spell in hand to deal with the creature when the play it anyway (which would probably have gone to the face if the rift had hit the creature), so I dont see this a problem. Three damage for 1 mana? Sign me up.
Both are good solutions, though I would say that paralletic feedback is the better card as it can give a late game 'oops I win' effect against control when they drop their win condition. From experience the opponant tends to be around 8 or 9 life when they drop dragonstorm rather than 4 or 5, and due to the pain lands even the damage from 3 dragons could quite easily kill us (they can grab some hunted dragons too to push the extra couple of points if necessary) so we cant rely on just hitting them for the 5 and burning them out next turn. Hitting the four mana needed is always a bit unreliable too though... The matchup is really a race. I'd be happier to see a more controlling build as this would give us longer to get to four lands and sit on the feedback while bringing them within range.
A meta-call, but I am actually expecting to see a lot of control around from what I have seen so far, and Giant Growth is subpar in those matchups. Besides, isn't Might of Old Krosa better?
I think this is better than BTS in the deck. Admittedly, it dies to last gasp/repeal/hammer, but you have a another lined up to take its place. Gives some late game staying power and wins back some CA against ***.
Flaming_Sword: I might not have expressed myself clearly. I believe Magus of the Scroll is a great replacement CASTING COST wise. Meaning, one of the better post-rotation one drops that COULD fit in Zoo. I liked the tempo of old Zoo, with the possibility for 12 different creature one drops to apply early preasure, which Magus DOES NOT DO. He is great in a mid to long game, but playing Zoo I never want a mid to late game (As you brought up, during play testing the earliest I'd activate Magus was turn five or six, an earler I had better things to do with my mana).
Wizzpig: While i agree that Magus isn't the right fit, I REALLY want a one drop in that spot. I don't think Icatian Javelineers is the right fit, though. His ablility is great, especially picking off early Birds of Paradise or Llanowar elves vs G/x, but his ability is counter aggresive. Because it's a tap ability, you either attack of ping, and for some reason i just really don't like that. I've started testing Skarrgan Pit-Skulk. It's almost useless as a turn one drop, but turn 2 on he should be Isumaru (with a barely useful ability). To me, Zoo has always been about playing undercosted creatures, and a 2/2 for G fits right in.
You are 100% correct, Rift bolt NEEDS to be in this deck. the early preasure it helps apply, and the fact an opponent might play around it makes it a no-brainer. But, right now I'm playing it as a 3-of, because I do have some top deck concerns about it.
After playtesting more post board vs Dragonstorm, I agree that Parallectric Feedback is the correct route to take. Turns 1-3 you can still be as aggresive as needed, apply a lot of early preasure, and bring their life total down to burnable range, and in turns 4+ keep attacking, wait on Dragonstorm, and Parallectric Feedback in response, winning the game. The only problem is getting the 4th land early enough for Feedback to matter.
I totally agree on the meta-call, but i believe that Growth is better in every case, unless they have NO blockers at all. casting Might of Old Krosa during your first main lets them chump block a big guy (not as bad if its Scab-Clan Mauler). Casting Might of Old Krosa after blockers have been declared only pushes 2 more damage through, where in the same situation growth would have been one more damage for the same cost. Just because growth is ALWAYS three, I think it goes in before Might of Old Krosa.
I agree on Call over BTS, the advantages of running it are great. Mana Allowing, you have a 3/3 turn 3 followed by an (automatic) 3/3 turn 4. Verse Wrath of God it's great recovery. Verse Counter, they effectively have to counter it twice.
All that being said, my current deck list is:
4 Kird Ape
4 Savannah Lions
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk (?)
4 Scab-Clan Mauler
4 Watchwolf
4 Seal of Fire
3 Rift Bolt
3 Giant Growth
4 Lightning Helix
4 Char
2 Call of the Herd
4 Stomping Ground
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple Garden
4 Battlefield Forge
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Karplusan Forest