With this deck atm i would be making sure im maxing out on 2 mana counters. With Leak, Rune Snag and Remand in the format, i think you should run them all.
I would also say sb trygon predators.
With the big decks being huge on tempo atm, i would go with the 12 2 mana counters both to disrupt their tempo dramatically and to win wars against their remands/leaks on the spells they need to resolve.
If you can find room, i would even consider running some signets myself in post, but i don't think i can spare the space.
wait! don't do that. the absolute last thing you'd want to do is add pricier counters to your deck. okay, flashfreeze you can use, but hinder WILL NOT WORk b/c its too slow. they may play their bts or solifuge before you can use it-or they may already have 3 creatures out. flashfreeze, maybe, but nothing else-that is, if you run both mana leak and rune snag md.
@ erasmus: why sb trygon predator if you can instead just destroy and enchantment/artifact straight up with naturalize, or get 2 tokens with seed spark? predator is unecessarily slow-their knell will trigger before you can do anything about it, and they'll be able to use their jitte. instant speed is the way 2 go.
Sakura-Tribe Elder is great. But I prefer Court Hussar for the following reasons:
1) Digs deeper into the deck, and allows you to choose from the top 3 which card you keep. If you're already set as far as lands go, STE is not as beneficial.
2) 1/3 vigilance that stays on the table after netting you a card, vs 1/1 that's gone after it gets you a land. Hussar can also block and stick around in many cases, while STE chumps and dies (of course you net a card, but the Hussar nets you a card AND can stay on the table after blocking a 1 or 2 power creature).
3) I'm looking forward; post-rotation, STE will not be around, Court Hussar will.
Those are my reasons, I'm not sure about anyone else.
But STE is a turn accelerarion, so you can play turn 3 hierarch.Its not about finding the land, its about turn acceleration.
that's the exact opposite of what we want, and what any control deck wants. we don't tap out for something on turn 3 that isn't going to win us the game! It will merely stop a win condition or stop aggro midgame. aggro-play it with a 2cc counter on turn 6, and control turn 8-10 but never, ever tap out, especially that early. these land tutors just waste space, we already use 24-5 land.
i understand that this is a lot to ask, but if it is possible i would really appreciate it if someone who has some knowledge of the deck posted a somewhat definitive list and basically what the deck tries to do.
Well, while I'm not experienced with the deck, nor do I have a definitive list, I can tell you what it tries to do. The basic idea is counter/Fetters/Condemn/Wrath away the opponent's threats, chump block with Vitu-Ghazi and after a long time, drop a finisher with counter backup that will be basiclly impossible for your opponent to deal with.
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Sorry I didnt read the last pages I was in the middle of making the deck and needed that question answered. I see why court hussar is better than STE But i dont think the deck needs it at all...Wouldnt it be a better sidebourd card against aggro?
@ metalhead: you should probably put some card draw in the deck, especially if you're not using Court Hussar. Tidings or Compulsive Research would be best, although I'm not sure Condemn is the card you should be cutting.
@ Dragon Master: I use Court Hussar over Hierarch because 1) it's cheaper (mana cost AND actual card cost); 2) and it helps with card draw, which I think is important in a deck like this, where you want cards in your hand since you're likely not playing as many permanents as your opponent.
The Hierarch is great, and I have considered him. There are several builds that run him. He's not a bad choice for the deck, it just so happens that he's not my personal choice.
whatever happened to doublelift's build (with hokori and augustin being accelerated to in the early game, locking down)? I used to run that build and I still think it can have potential. it's like 7 threads down from here (at the bottom) called vegetarian delight. that build was more lockdown-style, whereas the build we've been discussing is more permission-oriented.
whatever happened to doublelift's build (with hokori and augustin being accelerated to in the early game, locking down)? I used to run that build and I still think it can have potential. it's like 7 threads down from here (at the bottom) called vegetarian delight. that build was more lockdown-style, whereas the build we've been discussing is more permission-oriented.
That wasn't a counterpost build. It was another deck that I was testing out a while back and using in my free time. It played off a totally different concept focusing on locking down your opponent using Arbiter, Hokori, and Counterspells, and then beating down with creatures. Nothing like Counterpost, but yes, it was called Vegetarian Delight.
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“Should I be worried? He does seem dangerously cool, like a young Lando Calrissian, with a dream.”
Anyway, I'm trying to work a few Ghost Quarters into the mana base, somehow. Is it possible, or must I resort to diluting the deck's power by adding signets?
Speaking of Signets, I assume that they are a no-no? I was thinking about adding 2 to my deck, just to smooth the mana base a bit, so I'm curious as to the opinions of others.
Anyway, I'm trying to work a few Ghost Quarters into the mana base, somehow. Is it possible, or must I resort to diluting the deck's power by adding signets?
Well, I think the mana base is tight enough without the Quarters. I do think that they could do some good in the right build though. If you want to run them, definitely try to fit in 2-3 Signets just to make sure you don't have any troubles.
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“Should I be worried? He does seem dangerously cool, like a young Lando Calrissian, with a dream.”
So, after seeing just some of the TS cards on the spoiler, I'm excited. Storm, Flashback, Morph. I think Counterpost may be going strong after the rotation (maybe even better). There's even a red "outpost" card that puts 0/1's into play.
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“Should I be worried? He does seem dangerously cool, like a young Lando Calrissian, with a dream.”
Replacing Tidings: not going to happen. It's not fantastic, but it is the best we've got.
Court Hussar vs. Compulsive... compulsive wins. I've been testing quite a bit recently, and this has been one of the cards i've been looking at. Compulsive wins because it's a more powerful digging tool.
Win Conditions. Knell is a better choice than it was a few weeks ago. Solar Flare dies to it if resolved. Meloku is still #1, followed by SSS, but knell is right up there now too.
Ghost Quarter. Ruining the mana base with it isn't really the issue, you can do just fine without the 8 g/x duals so many of you are attached to. It's simply not needed. I've felt the need to have it in my deck.
Lotus Bloom. no hope. we don't any mana accel now and we won't later. We don't care in the slightest about a turn 4 SSS, we care about controlling the game, and it gives us less slots to devote to that.
we can play terramorphic expanse as a 2-3 of, and only one basic forest though, saving life on duals and allowing for more UW sources. I really like the look of that in here, running 25-26 lands as we should be to ensure early drops.
I think court hussar is better suited for a more balanced field...but in the near future compulsive will be better due to the fact that most aggro decks may fall apart while control stays strong...
lotus bloom...we probably don't need it. we already run at least 24 lands...if you're not hitting land drops you're not keeping the right hand.
You still have to see the light then.
Try testing against aggro decks, and see if you like more that Court Hussar to answer their apes/lions/insects/whatever, or draw one more card..
If your meta is filled with Firemanes, Solar Flare, other Counterpost or U/W-R counter-control, then by all means run Compulsive as it gives you a bit more card advantage, but if you get into a tourney where you face 2-3 aggro decks with the Hussar they're pratically byes..
wrath, fetters, condemn and spell snare mean i don't want to waste more md spots on weaker card advantage to make a good matchup easier. I have tested with both, against alot of decks, and compulsive is -far- superior.
MTG17: at least 24 lands... you really should be running at least 25, and possibly even 26. This deck wants mana... alot of it, without having to run accel.
I would also say sb trygon predators.
With the big decks being huge on tempo atm, i would go with the 12 2 mana counters both to disrupt their tempo dramatically and to win wars against their remands/leaks on the spells they need to resolve.
If you can find room, i would even consider running some signets myself in post, but i don't think i can spare the space.
@ erasmus: why sb trygon predator if you can instead just destroy and enchantment/artifact straight up with naturalize, or get 2 tokens with seed spark? predator is unecessarily slow-their knell will trigger before you can do anything about it, and they'll be able to use their jitte. instant speed is the way 2 go.
why not tribe elder?
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1) Digs deeper into the deck, and allows you to choose from the top 3 which card you keep. If you're already set as far as lands go, STE is not as beneficial.
2) 1/3 vigilance that stays on the table after netting you a card, vs 1/1 that's gone after it gets you a land. Hussar can also block and stick around in many cases, while STE chumps and dies (of course you net a card, but the Hussar nets you a card AND can stay on the table after blocking a 1 or 2 power creature).
3) I'm looking forward; post-rotation, STE will not be around, Court Hussar will.
Those are my reasons, I'm not sure about anyone else.
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that's the exact opposite of what we want, and what any control deck wants. we don't tap out for something on turn 3 that isn't going to win us the game! It will merely stop a win condition or stop aggro midgame. aggro-play it with a 2cc counter on turn 6, and control turn 8-10 but never, ever tap out, especially that early. these land tutors just waste space, we already use 24-5 land.
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how many land?
thanks for the help, i would still appreciate a sample list.
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What about this?
Lands (25)
4x Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
4x Temple Garden
4x Breeding Pool
4x Hallowed Fountain
6x Island
2x plains
1x Forest
Creatures (7)
3x Simic Sky Swallower
4x hierarch
Spells (28)
3x Mana Leak
4x Remand
4x Hinder
4x Voidslime
3x Spell Snare
3x Faith's Fetters
4x Wrath of God
3x Condemn or Telling Time
Sideboard
4x Naturalize
3x Pithing Needle
4x Vinelasher Kudzu
3x Annex
1x Faith's Fetters
Its just Koschei's list changed a bit...What do you think...Telling time or Condemn?
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1. what matchups does vitu ghazi actually help in? it seems like the ones where you need it, you dont have mana to spend on it, or vice versa.
2. what are the merits of court hussar vs hierarch?
3. In regards to koschei's list, what counters would i remove to make more room for board control / lifegain?
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@ Dragon Master: I use Court Hussar over Hierarch because 1) it's cheaper (mana cost AND actual card cost); 2) and it helps with card draw, which I think is important in a deck like this, where you want cards in your hand since you're likely not playing as many permanents as your opponent.
The Hierarch is great, and I have considered him. There are several builds that run him. He's not a bad choice for the deck, it just so happens that he's not my personal choice.
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-1 meloku
-2 voidslimes
+3 hierarchs
you suggested editing the manabase if i decided to add hierarchs, how about cutting 2 islands for 2 brushlands. what else?
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3 Island
2 Plains
3 Hallowed Fountain
3 Adarkar Wastes
2 Breeding Pool
3 Yavimaya Coast
4 Temple Garden
3 Vitu-Ghazi, the City Tree
Creatures 6
3 Loxodon Hierach
2 Simic Sky Swallower
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
4 Remand
3 Mana Leak
4 Spell Snare
2 Hinder
2 Voidslime
Card Draw 5
3 Compulsive Research
2 Tidings
Enchanmets 4
1 Debtors' Knell
3 Faith's Fetters
Removal 7
4 Wrath of God
3 Condemn
4 Annex
3 Muse Vessel
1 Voidslime
1 Wind Reaver
3 Naturalize
3 Azorious Guildmage
Thanks in advance for the suggestions:D
I was thinking to cut the Hierachs to add 3 Court Hussars?
That wasn't a counterpost build. It was another deck that I was testing out a while back and using in my free time. It played off a totally different concept focusing on locking down your opponent using Arbiter, Hokori, and Counterspells, and then beating down with creatures. Nothing like Counterpost, but yes, it was called Vegetarian Delight.
Speaking of Signets, I assume that they are a no-no? I was thinking about adding 2 to my deck, just to smooth the mana base a bit, so I'm curious as to the opinions of others.
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Well, I think the mana base is tight enough without the Quarters. I do think that they could do some good in the right build though. If you want to run them, definitely try to fit in 2-3 Signets just to make sure you don't have any troubles.
Replacing Tidings: not going to happen. It's not fantastic, but it is the best we've got.
Court Hussar vs. Compulsive... compulsive wins. I've been testing quite a bit recently, and this has been one of the cards i've been looking at. Compulsive wins because it's a more powerful digging tool.
Win Conditions. Knell is a better choice than it was a few weeks ago. Solar Flare dies to it if resolved. Meloku is still #1, followed by SSS, but knell is right up there now too.
Ghost Quarter. Ruining the mana base with it isn't really the issue, you can do just fine without the 8 g/x duals so many of you are attached to. It's simply not needed. I've felt the need to have it in my deck.
Lotus Bloom. no hope. we don't any mana accel now and we won't later. We don't care in the slightest about a turn 4 SSS, we care about controlling the game, and it gives us less slots to devote to that.
we can play terramorphic expanse as a 2-3 of, and only one basic forest though, saving life on duals and allowing for more UW sources. I really like the look of that in here, running 25-26 lands as we should be to ensure early drops.
lotus bloom...we probably don't need it. we already run at least 24 lands...if you're not hitting land drops you're not keeping the right hand.
wrath, fetters, condemn and spell snare mean i don't want to waste more md spots on weaker card advantage to make a good matchup easier. I have tested with both, against alot of decks, and compulsive is -far- superior.
MTG17: at least 24 lands... you really should be running at least 25, and possibly even 26. This deck wants mana... alot of it, without having to run accel.