I agree with you all that is necessary change our build, ive been playtesting condemn,4 seek with 4 castigate, and crime/punishment...and i have to say that BGW is not dead... an aggro-control is the right choice for the metagame ... i saw that an BGW chord build has made TOP 4 in MOL within 63 decks...so think again if you intend to leave this thread ! Any doubt enter at starcitygames on the weekly report...
How about add Drekavac, at least at SB ? And Pillar of Paruns ?
Now BGW has 2 3/3 for 2 ...
Anyway, that's the deck im testing right now...feel free to comment.
For those of us running the Dimir House Guard toolbox, i run 1 eradicate to be grabbed for certain situations, especially Yosei. It works pretty well when its needed. (Mana base is kind of shifty because i dont own all the dual lands i need). Hierarch is great but he can't win the game by himself, which is why i have him in sb in case he's needed to win.
This is my invention i call it Greater BeachHouse
I run Top over Arena bc i already run 5 Enchantments (Greater Good, Knell) and also bc i have lots of shuffle effects (sakura, farseek)
With Greater Good + Miren + Debtors Knell in the late game, its very hard to beat. This deck can consistently drop turn 3 heirarchs, ***s or Greater Goods or Extractions after sb. Heres how i sb against matchups
Zoo/Grull/B/w Aggro - basically these matchups are 50/50 pre sb and 60/40 post sb after i bring in 4 faiths. Flames of the Blood Hand is the only card i really fear in any of these matchups.
U/R Maginvore / UR TRON / UR Owl :)- Against Magnivore it usually depends on who goes first... if we go first and have the turn 2 mana accel, then its usually going to go well for us, but if they go first then..... Anyways bring in the exractions and castigates and sacred grounds.... 50/50 post sb still. Against tron and owl bring in everything expect sacred grounds. Sb out GG against Owl and Castigate and Extraction usually pwn their hand and win conditions.
Mirror BWG - This matchup is about 50/50. Depends on the build of ur opp. Also it depends on who extracts first.
Heartbeat Combo - This matchup sucks for us in game 1. We cant kill them fast like zoo does and we dont have anything to stop the combo besides mortify. Pre Sb 30/70. After sb our matchup gets much better. We wary of them tho, they like to sb in the man plan and watch to see how many cards they sb in, if its more than 4 than dont side out any of ur hate. If its 4 or less, bring in the Goods. Castigate + Extraction pwn them. Post Sb 50/50
MUC/ Anything running more than 8 counters. This matchup is usually about 50/50. We can sit on Grave Shell Scarab and Vitu Ghazi, forcing them to counter grave while we just dredge it back. After sb we rape their hand but its still about 50/50 maybe 60/40 in our favor. I expect to see some U/W/R @ Regionals but i doubt it will do very well.
Well thats about it
I hope this helped all my fellow BWG players out there!!:p
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Mulliganing is an integral part of tournament Magic, and it's impossible to have tournament success without an understanding of it. Magic is a game of both skill and luck, and part of the skill is minimizing the variance. Yes, sometimes you have to mulligan twice on the play, and yes, it sucks. Understand, though, that the reason you mulliganed was because you didn't have a chance to win with those hands. You're actually gaining percentage, not losing it.
seeing how the decks are still "perfect" i will leave this thread for a while but during the time will test and maybe later when triad regains its power i will post again beacuse we are constantly posting the same things and arguing on the same subject, not to be hurtfull but i wll let the dust settle and return later
good testing and good luck in any tournaments!
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BBBMBC LIVES FOREVERBBB
The banner was a friendly jester from a close magic-mate= Poukis
thanks!
Oni your new deck looks better than before since you've been vore and owl (worst matchups for the deck).
Aggro-control is actual better than pure control or pure aggro since you have both elements. Ghazi-glare is aggro-control.
How's the heartbeat matchup game 1 before extractions come in?
Edit: What do you side in/out for vore? Vore really has problems with aggro so would game 1 be a close game? I think the last decklist you posted had sacred ground in the side. What happened there?
Heartbeat: honestly about 50/50, maybe a little worse. I don't get to test much heartbeat, and it seems that it just randomly wins on turn 4-7.
Half the time it comes down to whether you have a mortify in hand when they drop the heartbeat, even half stompy, this deck isn't fast enough to squash them in 4 turns. If you can get a fast yosei before they combo, and can then lock them out by sacing to miren, you have a much better chance.
Game two and three its much better since you can bring in extraction and naturalize.
Vore: I used to run sacred ground, but i found it was only useful against vore, and i dont see as much vore lately. So i switched it to farseek. Farseek works very well in helping to win the mana race with vore, and it is also useful against the same race against netsuke (the other nice thing is you can drop it early which makes your hand smaller). If you see more vore than netsuke, then maybe switch back, meantime i stick with farseek.
Also bring in extraction. The cards to take out are fetters and ***.
This allows you to leave in all your instant speed pinpoint removal (6 types) so you can respond to a dropped vore. It also allows you to leave in ghostly prison which screws up their mana math when they drop the vore. Sometimes this gives you an extra turn to respond. Sometimes they will bounce the prison. Either way you win.
If your vore opponent is burn heavy, you may want to bring in ivory mask (or COP:Red if you prefer). Also if you know for sure that he is packing blood moon, it may be worth it to bring in the naturalize. (i usually extract them first :))
Lastly, if you expect the meta to be vore and 'suke heavy switch the farseeks with *** before the night starts. Otherwise, stick with the ***s...
the leyline very good ageinst the blue decks, they have a lot of counters and i dont have much creatures that can do seriuse damage if they not in play (like kokusho, if i put 2 of them into play, i gain 10 life and he loose 10 life, and if he can counter my first kokusho??)
the hand of cruelty VERY good ageinst WW, eradicate very powerfull ageinst all of the "stars" (like yosi), darkblast very good ageinst WW, naturalize can realy help sometimes. the combination of puterfy and crime is GREAT !
i started this deck as rock, but i said "if i have split, why dont use the other side ?!" so i can putrefy creature under oppenent control and in my turn put it undfer my control and if i already splash white, i put another plains (searching with sakura) and some temple gurdens, and the cool elephent
i am not that good in playing but in MWS i have some wins and some looses, started with the last change i had 3 wins 2 looses...
put this deck in MWS and play its realy fun to play with it, and put 2 kokusho into play for gain 10 life and other loose 10 life its fun
How are your matchups.
(looks liek vore and netsuke are bad.... :()
A little bird told me every non-Land in Owling Mine costs 2, a number that Punishment can be set to.
How does this deck fare against Zoo and BW? Zoo clocks you at turn 4 usually, with burn to clean up with post-Wrath. Your blockers don't come online until turn 3, most likely, and your removal spells all cost at least 3. It seems like, short of Wrath and 0 in-hand burn, that a relatively good start for Zoo runs all over you since your removal will only hit 1 creature when, on turn 3, they may have anywhere from 3-6 creatures out. Additionally, the inclusion of Flames and Bathe in Light hurts cards like Fetters and other targeted removal. Clearly surviving means your creatures are just too big for them and the only way they win at that point is by praying you draw no life gain and they draw all burn. However, the steepness of your curve and relative lack of threats to Zoo's early game leads me to believe a moderately good start is pretty bad for you.
I bring up BW because I've found that, while playing Ghost Dad, I'm very good at stabilizing through Wrath and that I can just Pillory something stupid and wait out the game with you, redirecting damage as necessary. I'm sure you have pretty good stats against Hand in Hand.
A little bird told me every non-Land in Owling Mine costs 2, a number that Punishment can be set to.
How does this deck fare against Zoo and BW? Zoo clocks you at turn 4 usually, with burn to clean up with post-Wrath. Your blockers don't come online until turn 3, most likely, and your removal spells all cost at least 3. It seems like, short of Wrath and 0 in-hand burn, that a relatively good start for Zoo runs all over you since your removal will only hit 1 creature when, on turn 3, they may have anywhere from 3-6 creatures out. Additionally, the inclusion of Flames and Bathe in Light hurts cards like Fetters and other targeted removal. Clearly surviving means your creatures are just too big for them and the only way they win at that point is by praying you draw no life gain and they draw all burn. However, the steepness of your curve and relative lack of threats to Zoo's early game leads me to believe a moderately good start is pretty bad for you.
I bring up BW because I've found that, while playing Ghost Dad, I'm very good at stabilizing through Wrath and that I can just Pillory something stupid and wait out the game with you, redirecting damage as necessary. I'm sure you have pretty good stats against Hand in Hand.
LoL Zoo should be an ezzz matchup for this deck. You have Sakura, Heirarch, ***, Mortify, Faiths Fetters...... All of these can be played on turn 3 if u have the turn 2 accel. I play Zoo and Triad and i am 100% sure that unless Zoo has the god start (turn 1 kird ape turn 2 watchwolf turn 3 burning tree or burn turn 4 more burn or creatures turn 5 dead) then you should be able to stabalize. Drop a *** on turn 3 and if u dont have that then drop a hierarch. They will have to waste there char on it instead of u. Here is my build. It has good matchups against aggro, ok/good matchups against control.
Mulliganing is an integral part of tournament Magic, and it's impossible to have tournament success without an understanding of it. Magic is a game of both skill and luck, and part of the skill is minimizing the variance. Yes, sometimes you have to mulligan twice on the play, and yes, it sucks. Understand, though, that the reason you mulliganed was because you didn't have a chance to win with those hands. You're actually gaining percentage, not losing it.
now its BGW, your white get total control in this deck,
i had only splash for white, the idea is that you bring plains with sakura or garden with elves, but you can play without it, if you dont have white you can use punishment and you have only one dead card (the loxodon) but if you play like this, you must have at least two mana of each color so you can play good...
and BTW, you better put 2 forest and trow 1 swamp and 1 plains, and play birds... they realy good in 3 colors and up, so you have good fixing.
i also prefere kokusho then yossi, dont know why...
The reason I use the house guard is because it is a very, very effective tutor, since most of the business spells cost 4 (wrath, fetters, loxodon, cranial & persecute 2 be exact). What's iffy, however, is the mana base, which is unstable at the moment. The base is exactly like Remie's build. I'm thinking of running 2 more godless shrines instead of the orzhov basilica, and replacing the 4 signets with maybe rampant growth/far seek.
Oh, and the deck basically keels over to heartbeat (got him down to 1 life in 1 game and he still managed to pull off a win by muddling into ste, topping an early harvest ftw.) This deck just isn't fast enough. My only hope is that he doesn't counter a cranial for maga/firemind/what have you. Comments?
LoL Zoo should be an ezzz matchup for this deck. You have Sakura, Heirarch, ***, Mortify, Faiths Fetters...... All of these can be played on turn 3 if u have the turn 2 accel. I play Zoo and Triad and i am 100% sure that unless Zoo has the god start (turn 1 kird ape turn 2 watchwolf turn 3 burning tree or burn turn 4 more burn or creatures turn 5 dead) then you should be able to stabalize. Drop a *** on turn 3 and if u dont have that then drop a hierarch. They will have to waste there char on it instead of u. Here is my build. It has good matchups against aggro, ok/good matchups against control.
So basically, against a deck that kills turn 5 nine times out of ten, the only way you can win is if you draw an STE AND a Wrath or Hierarch? That sounds bad.
@ Revenger:
About the terrarions, its good for mana fix and draw a card but you have the signets for that. Which honden are you talking about white or black? Anyways, black honden is not that good. White honden could be good for life gain. If you plan to use white honden, use only 1.
@daedelusaf
I personally like using STEs, Farseeks than signets. I fix green, black or white depending on the situation. Downside is that takes 8 slots while signets can take a max of 6 (orzhov + golgari + selesnya). 6 is the max for sigents.
@kingcobweb
Aggro is usually not a problem unless you get a really bad opening hand and mana flood/screw. Oni's build uses ghostly prisons and wraths to stop aggro cold. The house guard also use wraths by transmuting. The real problem for the deck (house guard or not) is owl and vore.
@ Revenger:
About the terrarions, its good for mana fix and draw a card but you have the signets for that. Which honden are you talking about white or black? Anyways, black honden is not that good. White honden could be good for life gain. If you plan to use white honden, use only 1.
@daedelusaf
I personally like using STEs, Farseeks than signets. I fix green, black or white depending on the situation. Downside is that takes 8 slots while signets can take a max of 6 (orzhov + golgari + selesnya). 6 is the max for sigents.
@kingcobweb
Aggro is usually not a problem unless you get a really bad opening hand and mana flood/screw. Oni's build uses ghostly prisons and wraths to stop aggro cold. The house guard also use wraths by transmuting. The real problem for the deck (house guard or not) is owl and vore.
I agree.... Owl and Vore are both bad matchups but owl isnt being played as much anymore and Vore can randomly blow out just about any deck w/ there god hands, not just us. If we go first against vore then the turn 2 sakura will help alot and if we go second then :o.
Has anyone here tested Greater Good. Im not talking about using it w/ goryos veng. Im talking about using it just for its card advantage and also how it can make cards like Faiths Fetters useless by saccing the creature in resp. Also w/ miren and Debtors Knell..... Greater Good just becomes insane. I will be running it sb and i suggest you test it.
Dimir House Tutor is not good for several reasons. 1) you have to reveal the card you are tutoring for 2) Unless you are running bop (bad idea) you will not be able to even tutor for the card until turn 3, at which point i would rather just be playing 4x of every card that i could tutor for, insuring i will have at least one *** , heirarch, or cranial or w/e i need. Finally, lets use a real life example. Lets say we are playing against Izzetron and its turn 3. We have out 4 lands (turn 2 accel) and we tutor for a cranial extraction. Then we pass turn. Next turn we attempt to cast it and it gets remanded. We have now wasted 2 turns trying to play a spell that didnt resolve, and probably wont resolve considering the amount of counterspells that Izzetron runs. Now if we were running the better version of B/G/w (which is more consistent) we could have at least attemped that cranial on turn 3 and even if it gets remanded, we attempt again on turn 4 and our opp must waste another counter. Tutor is not good bc its too slow. Ppl say, O but i can tutor for wrath of god against aggro(z00) Well once u reveal that wrath i guarntee ur opp will play around it. If he is a skilled player u will only get 2 creatures with that *** and then he will just drop more gas from his hand and then burn you out. Tutor is slow against aggro and against heartbeat and i cannot stress how important speed is against both of these decks. Before you even do that tho, i want you to think about how fast zoo and heartbeat can kill you. The God hand is turn 4. Turn 5 is usually the turn zoo burns you out and heartbeat goes off. So essentialy, You would need that turn 3 *** to stop zoo and you cant have it till turn 4 w/ tutor. Heartbeat will just remand the cranial and then go off next turn. Ok, enuff ranting :). Here is what i would suggest you take to regionals. This list is really consistent and i really like the sb. Greater Good is soooo good against control and Cranial/Castigate are just too much for heartbeat to handle. Aggro is a good matchup too, with all the lifegain and removal. If you dont like Senseis Top then run Arena, its really ur choice. I run top bc of shuffle effects and the fact that you can drop it on turn 1 (helps against owl) and doesnt take up ur turn 3 drop like Arena does. Ideally, you want to be playing any of these spells on turn 3 if u had the turn 2 accel. ***, Heirarch, Faiths Fetters, Mortify. Well thats about it for now.
Mulliganing is an integral part of tournament Magic, and it's impossible to have tournament success without an understanding of it. Magic is a game of both skill and luck, and part of the skill is minimizing the variance. Yes, sometimes you have to mulligan twice on the play, and yes, it sucks. Understand, though, that the reason you mulliganed was because you didn't have a chance to win with those hands. You're actually gaining percentage, not losing it.
Against Izzetron: better to tutor for Ivory mask (if MD, use only 1) than cranial. That way, only meloku or keiga will kill you. Same for heartbeat, maga and invoke the firemind can't get through ivory mask.
Greater good (w/o gifts) is a good idea but I really can't find room for it. Besides, the only things I faith's fetters are lands (miren, ghazi), and creatures I don't want dead (dragons). For sac, I use miren or house guard (i run the house guard engine, and I like it).
If you've read Mike Flores latest article at mtg.com, he says heartbeat is the best deck in the format since b/w discard can't beat it (unless you have mindslicer). cranial is hard against heartbeat since they only run 1 copy each of their win condition.
Why would you cranial the win condition anyways? You always go for the Early Harvests. Jester's Cap is 10x more effective verse Heartbeat.
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It really says something about the quality of permission in Standard that the right play for Blue decks past turn 5 is to pull down their pants and tap out.
- Mike Flores
why won't one cranial the win condition anyway? without maga/firemind they won't...win? unless there's another way to kill the opponent that i'm just not seeing...
the builds I've seen ran only 1 win condition pre-sideboard, so I think cranial still nails it. Post dissension however gives heartbeat access to research, which bring a multitude of menaces from the sideboard, so a kill condition is just a tutor away.
B/W has access to hide//seek though, which can be pretty nasty since it can be played turn 2
You should never name a win condition w/ cranial against heartbeat. Always go for Early Harvest first, then Heartbeat 2nd and Invoke third. W/ early harvest it is very hard for the heartbeat player to produce enuff mana to kill u with maga or invoke.
Heartbeat is not the best deck in the format although its right up there w/ b/w aggro. Heartbeat is easy to disrupt and cranial is just too much for them. Heartbeat has counters but they almost always tap out on turn 3 for either tutoring or kodamas reach and then you just have to untap and cranial them. I think B/G/w is going to be underestimated @ Regionals but i think i will do quite well bc the decks to beat at regionals will be heartbeat and b/w aggro. Triad has good matchups against both of these decks, heartbeat just cant handle castigate+ cranial. B/W Aggro is not fast enuff and Heirarch helps alot in this matchup. Greater Good in the sb is frickin nuts, bringing it in against the mirror and other control matchups when no one is expecting it. The deck i am most worried about right now is Izzetron. It can accel into turn 3 dragons, has enuff counters to deal with our threats, and can just sit on its lands, countering anything you play while casting eot draw like telling time. This matchup is really hard, and i am considering running defense grid just to give us a better match games 2 3.
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Mulliganing is an integral part of tournament Magic, and it's impossible to have tournament success without an understanding of it. Magic is a game of both skill and luck, and part of the skill is minimizing the variance. Yes, sometimes you have to mulligan twice on the play, and yes, it sucks. Understand, though, that the reason you mulliganed was because you didn't have a chance to win with those hands. You're actually gaining percentage, not losing it.
How about add Drekavac, at least at SB ? And Pillar of Paruns ?
Now BGW has 2 3/3 for 2 ...
Anyway, that's the deck im testing right now...feel free to comment.
1 Miren
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple Garden
2 Vitu-Ghazi
5 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Kodama of North Tree
4 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Sakura Tribe-Elder
3 Watchwolf
1 Yosei
1 Kokusho
4 Phyrexian Arena
4 MOrtify
4 Castigate
4 Hide/Seek
3 Farseek
1 Debtor's Knell
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Wood Elves
4 Dimir House Guard
2 Kodama of the North Tree
2 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Grave-Shell Scarab
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Kagemaro
Others: 17
3 Wrath of God
3 Putrefy
3 Mortify
1 Glare of Subdual
1 Persecute
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Eradicate
1 Debtor's Knell
3 Congregation at Dawn
3 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
4 Vitu-Ghazi
10 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Glare of Subdual
3 Seed Spark
1 Persecute
1 Yosei
1 Splinter
1 Ink-Eyes
2 Grave-Shell Scarab
1 Final Judgement
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=510597
Playing:
Legacy BW Stoneblade
Modern BGW Rock
I run Top over Arena bc i already run 5 Enchantments (Greater Good, Knell) and also bc i have lots of shuffle effects (sakura, farseek)
With Greater Good + Miren + Debtors Knell in the late game, its very hard to beat. This deck can consistently drop turn 3 heirarchs, ***s or Greater Goods or Extractions after sb. Heres how i sb against matchups
23 Lands
2 Godless Shrine
1 Miren
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple Garden
2 Vitu-Ghazi
3 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Plains
17 Creatures
1 Kodama of North Tree
4 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Sakura Tribe-Elder
2 Yosei
2 Kokusho
2 Angel Of Despair
2 Grave Shell Scarab
20 Spells
4 Wrath of God
4 Mortify
3 Greater Good
3 Senseis Divining Top
4 Farseek
2 Debtor's Knell
SideBoard
4 Castigate
4 Cranial Extraction
4 Faiths Fetters
3 Sacred Ground
Zoo/Grull/B/w Aggro - basically these matchups are 50/50 pre sb and 60/40 post sb after i bring in 4 faiths. Flames of the Blood Hand is the only card i really fear in any of these matchups.
U/R Maginvore / UR TRON / UR Owl :)- Against Magnivore it usually depends on who goes first... if we go first and have the turn 2 mana accel, then its usually going to go well for us, but if they go first then..... Anyways bring in the exractions and castigates and sacred grounds.... 50/50 post sb still. Against tron and owl bring in everything expect sacred grounds. Sb out GG against Owl and Castigate and Extraction usually pwn their hand and win conditions.
Mirror BWG - This matchup is about 50/50. Depends on the build of ur opp. Also it depends on who extracts first.
Heartbeat Combo - This matchup sucks for us in game 1. We cant kill them fast like zoo does and we dont have anything to stop the combo besides mortify. Pre Sb 30/70. After sb our matchup gets much better. We wary of them tho, they like to sb in the man plan and watch to see how many cards they sb in, if its more than 4 than dont side out any of ur hate. If its 4 or less, bring in the Goods. Castigate + Extraction pwn them. Post Sb 50/50
MUC/ Anything running more than 8 counters. This matchup is usually about 50/50. We can sit on Grave Shell Scarab and Vitu Ghazi, forcing them to counter grave while we just dredge it back. After sb we rape their hand but its still about 50/50 maybe 60/40 in our favor. I expect to see some U/W/R @ Regionals but i doubt it will do very well.
Well thats about it
I hope this helped all my fellow BWG players out there!!:p
-Micheal Jacob
good testing and good luck in any tournaments!
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4 Birds of Paradise
3 Watchwolf
2 Wood elves
3 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Kodama of the North Tree
2 Yosei, the morning star
2 Gleancrawler
Spells: 19
4 Phyrexian Arena
3 Wrath of God
3 Putrefy
3 Mortify
3 Faith's Fetters
3 Ghostly Prison
6 Forest
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Temple Garden
2 Godless Shrine
4 Orzhov Basillica
3 Tendo ice bridge
2 Miren, the Moaning Well
3 Naturalize
3 Cranial Extraction
3 Farseek
3 Ivory Mask
3 Grave Shell Scarab
Heartbeat: honestly about 50/50, maybe a little worse. I don't get to test much heartbeat, and it seems that it just randomly wins on turn 4-7.
Half the time it comes down to whether you have a mortify in hand when they drop the heartbeat, even half stompy, this deck isn't fast enough to squash them in 4 turns. If you can get a fast yosei before they combo, and can then lock them out by sacing to miren, you have a much better chance.
Game two and three its much better since you can bring in extraction and naturalize.
Vore: I used to run sacred ground, but i found it was only useful against vore, and i dont see as much vore lately. So i switched it to farseek. Farseek works very well in helping to win the mana race with vore, and it is also useful against the same race against netsuke (the other nice thing is you can drop it early which makes your hand smaller). If you see more vore than netsuke, then maybe switch back, meantime i stick with farseek.
Also bring in extraction. The cards to take out are fetters and ***.
This allows you to leave in all your instant speed pinpoint removal (6 types) so you can respond to a dropped vore. It also allows you to leave in ghostly prison which screws up their mana math when they drop the vore. Sometimes this gives you an extra turn to respond. Sometimes they will bounce the prison. Either way you win.
If your vore opponent is burn heavy, you may want to bring in ivory mask (or COP:Red if you prefer). Also if you know for sure that he is packing blood moon, it may be worth it to bring in the naturalize. (i usually extract them first :))
Lastly, if you expect the meta to be vore and 'suke heavy switch the farseeks with *** before the night starts. Otherwise, stick with the ***s...
7 swamp
6 forest
3 overgrown tomb
2 plains
2 temple garden
3 vitu-ghazi, the city tree
creatures:
4 birds of paradise
4 kokusho the evning star
4 sakura-trible elder
3 grave-shell scarab
3 carven caryatid
3 loxodon hierarch
2 wood elves
4 puterfy
4 last gasp
3 crime//punishment
3 moldervine cloak
3 darkblast
3 naturalize
3 eradicate
3 hand of cruelty
3 leyline of lifeforce
the leyline very good ageinst the blue decks, they have a lot of counters and i dont have much creatures that can do seriuse damage if they not in play (like kokusho, if i put 2 of them into play, i gain 10 life and he loose 10 life, and if he can counter my first kokusho??)
the hand of cruelty VERY good ageinst WW, eradicate very powerfull ageinst all of the "stars" (like yosi), darkblast very good ageinst WW, naturalize can realy help sometimes. the combination of puterfy and crime is GREAT !
How are your matchups.
(looks liek vore and netsuke are bad.... :()
i am not that good in playing but in MWS i have some wins and some looses, started with the last change i had 3 wins 2 looses...
put this deck in MWS and play its realy fun to play with it, and put 2 kokusho into play for gain 10 life and other loose 10 life its fun
oh and the splash is also to the tree
How does this deck fare against Zoo and BW? Zoo clocks you at turn 4 usually, with burn to clean up with post-Wrath. Your blockers don't come online until turn 3, most likely, and your removal spells all cost at least 3. It seems like, short of Wrath and 0 in-hand burn, that a relatively good start for Zoo runs all over you since your removal will only hit 1 creature when, on turn 3, they may have anywhere from 3-6 creatures out. Additionally, the inclusion of Flames and Bathe in Light hurts cards like Fetters and other targeted removal. Clearly surviving means your creatures are just too big for them and the only way they win at that point is by praying you draw no life gain and they draw all burn. However, the steepness of your curve and relative lack of threats to Zoo's early game leads me to believe a moderately good start is pretty bad for you.
I bring up BW because I've found that, while playing Ghost Dad, I'm very good at stabilizing through Wrath and that I can just Pillory something stupid and wait out the game with you, redirecting damage as necessary. I'm sure you have pretty good stats against Hand in Hand.
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LoL Zoo should be an ezzz matchup for this deck. You have Sakura, Heirarch, ***, Mortify, Faiths Fetters...... All of these can be played on turn 3 if u have the turn 2 accel. I play Zoo and Triad and i am 100% sure that unless Zoo has the god start (turn 1 kird ape turn 2 watchwolf turn 3 burning tree or burn turn 4 more burn or creatures turn 5 dead) then you should be able to stabalize. Drop a *** on turn 3 and if u dont have that then drop a hierarch. They will have to waste there char on it instead of u. Here is my build. It has good matchups against aggro, ok/good matchups against control.
23 Lands
2 Godless Shrine
1 Miren
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple Garden
2 Vitu-Ghazi
3 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Plains
1 Brushland
17 Creatures
2 Kodama of North Tree
4 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Sakura Tribe-Elder
2 Yosei
2 Kokusho
1 Grave Shell Scarab
20 Spells
4 Wrath of God
4 Mortify
4 Faiths Fetters
3 Senseis Divining Top
4 Farseek
2 Debtor's Knell
SideBoard
4 Castigate
4 Cranial Extraction
3 Sacred Ground
3 Greater Good
-Micheal Jacob
i had only splash for white, the idea is that you bring plains with sakura or garden with elves, but you can play without it, if you dont have white you can use punishment and you have only one dead card (the loxodon) but if you play like this, you must have at least two mana of each color so you can play good...
and BTW, you better put 2 forest and trow 1 swamp and 1 plains, and play birds... they realy good in 3 colors and up, so you have good fixing.
i also prefere kokusho then yossi, dont know why...
Im thinking in Terrarion and Hodem for this deck, that's a good choice ? thx !
3 Godless Shrine
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
3 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple Garden
2 Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
4 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Plains
Creatures:15
4 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Watchwolf
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
2 Angel of Despair
3 Wrath of God
3 Phyrexian Arena
3 Mortify
1 Debtors' Knell
2 Cranial Extraction
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Putrefy
2 Persecute
3 Orzhov Signet
3 Ivory Mask
4 Castigate
3 Naturalize
3 Kami of Ancient Law
2 Kodama of the North Tree
First, the decklist:
2 Godless Shrine
3 Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
4 Temple Garden
3 Swamp
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
4 Plains
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Orzhov Basilica
Creatures:
4 Dimir House Guard
2 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
2 Angel of Despair
4 Loxodon Heirarch
4 Orzhov Signet
4 Wrath of God
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Mortify
2 Last Gasp
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Persecute
2 Cranial Extraction
4 Castigate
2 Faith's Fetters
2 Persecute
1 Eradicate
10 ?
The reason I use the house guard is because it is a very, very effective tutor, since most of the business spells cost 4 (wrath, fetters, loxodon, cranial & persecute 2 be exact). What's iffy, however, is the mana base, which is unstable at the moment. The base is exactly like Remie's build. I'm thinking of running 2 more godless shrines instead of the orzhov basilica, and replacing the 4 signets with maybe rampant growth/far seek.
Oh, and the deck basically keels over to heartbeat (got him down to 1 life in 1 game and he still managed to pull off a win by muddling into ste, topping an early harvest ftw.) This deck just isn't fast enough. My only hope is that he doesn't counter a cranial for maga/firemind/what have you. Comments?
So basically, against a deck that kills turn 5 nine times out of ten, the only way you can win is if you draw an STE AND a Wrath or Hierarch? That sounds bad.
About the terrarions, its good for mana fix and draw a card but you have the signets for that. Which honden are you talking about white or black? Anyways, black honden is not that good. White honden could be good for life gain. If you plan to use white honden, use only 1.
@daedelusaf
I personally like using STEs, Farseeks than signets. I fix green, black or white depending on the situation. Downside is that takes 8 slots while signets can take a max of 6 (orzhov + golgari + selesnya). 6 is the max for sigents.
@kingcobweb
Aggro is usually not a problem unless you get a really bad opening hand and mana flood/screw. Oni's build uses ghostly prisons and wraths to stop aggro cold. The house guard also use wraths by transmuting. The real problem for the deck (house guard or not) is owl and vore.
I agree.... Owl and Vore are both bad matchups but owl isnt being played as much anymore and Vore can randomly blow out just about any deck w/ there god hands, not just us. If we go first against vore then the turn 2 sakura will help alot and if we go second then :o.
Has anyone here tested Greater Good. Im not talking about using it w/ goryos veng. Im talking about using it just for its card advantage and also how it can make cards like Faiths Fetters useless by saccing the creature in resp. Also w/ miren and Debtors Knell..... Greater Good just becomes insane. I will be running it sb and i suggest you test it.
Dimir House Tutor is not good for several reasons. 1) you have to reveal the card you are tutoring for 2) Unless you are running bop (bad idea) you will not be able to even tutor for the card until turn 3, at which point i would rather just be playing 4x of every card that i could tutor for, insuring i will have at least one *** , heirarch, or cranial or w/e i need. Finally, lets use a real life example. Lets say we are playing against Izzetron and its turn 3. We have out 4 lands (turn 2 accel) and we tutor for a cranial extraction. Then we pass turn. Next turn we attempt to cast it and it gets remanded. We have now wasted 2 turns trying to play a spell that didnt resolve, and probably wont resolve considering the amount of counterspells that Izzetron runs. Now if we were running the better version of B/G/w (which is more consistent) we could have at least attemped that cranial on turn 3 and even if it gets remanded, we attempt again on turn 4 and our opp must waste another counter. Tutor is not good bc its too slow. Ppl say, O but i can tutor for wrath of god against aggro(z00) Well once u reveal that wrath i guarntee ur opp will play around it. If he is a skilled player u will only get 2 creatures with that *** and then he will just drop more gas from his hand and then burn you out. Tutor is slow against aggro and against heartbeat and i cannot stress how important speed is against both of these decks. Before you even do that tho, i want you to think about how fast zoo and heartbeat can kill you. The God hand is turn 4. Turn 5 is usually the turn zoo burns you out and heartbeat goes off. So essentialy, You would need that turn 3 *** to stop zoo and you cant have it till turn 4 w/ tutor. Heartbeat will just remand the cranial and then go off next turn. Ok, enuff ranting :). Here is what i would suggest you take to regionals. This list is really consistent and i really like the sb. Greater Good is soooo good against control and Cranial/Castigate are just too much for heartbeat to handle. Aggro is a good matchup too, with all the lifegain and removal. If you dont like Senseis Top then run Arena, its really ur choice. I run top bc of shuffle effects and the fact that you can drop it on turn 1 (helps against owl) and doesnt take up ur turn 3 drop like Arena does. Ideally, you want to be playing any of these spells on turn 3 if u had the turn 2 accel. ***, Heirarch, Faiths Fetters, Mortify. Well thats about it for now.
23 Lands
2 Godless Shrine
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple Garden
2 Vitu-Ghazi
1 Miren
3 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Plains
1 Brushland
15 Creatures
2 Kodama of North Tree
4 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Sakura Tribe-Elder
3 Yosei
2 Kokusho
22 Spells
4 Wrath of God
4 Mortify
3 Faiths Fetters
2 Last Gasp
3 Senseis Divining Top
4 Farseek
2 Debtor's Knell
SideBoard 15
3 Castigate
4 Cranial Extraction
3 Sacred Ground
3 Greater Good
2 Ivory Mask
-Micheal Jacob
Greater good (w/o gifts) is a good idea but I really can't find room for it. Besides, the only things I faith's fetters are lands (miren, ghazi), and creatures I don't want dead (dragons). For sac, I use miren or house guard (i run the house guard engine, and I like it).
If you've read Mike Flores latest article at mtg.com, he says heartbeat is the best deck in the format since b/w discard can't beat it (unless you have mindslicer). cranial is hard against heartbeat since they only run 1 copy each of their win condition.
Hmm... I've never run into that scenario yet. Well, thanks for the heads up.
- Mike Flores
B/W has access to hide//seek though, which can be pretty nasty since it can be played turn 2
Heartbeat is not the best deck in the format although its right up there w/ b/w aggro. Heartbeat is easy to disrupt and cranial is just too much for them. Heartbeat has counters but they almost always tap out on turn 3 for either tutoring or kodamas reach and then you just have to untap and cranial them. I think B/G/w is going to be underestimated @ Regionals but i think i will do quite well bc the decks to beat at regionals will be heartbeat and b/w aggro. Triad has good matchups against both of these decks, heartbeat just cant handle castigate+ cranial. B/W Aggro is not fast enuff and Heirarch helps alot in this matchup. Greater Good in the sb is frickin nuts, bringing it in against the mirror and other control matchups when no one is expecting it. The deck i am most worried about right now is Izzetron. It can accel into turn 3 dragons, has enuff counters to deal with our threats, and can just sit on its lands, countering anything you play while casting eot draw like telling time. This matchup is really hard, and i am considering running defense grid just to give us a better match games 2 3.
-Micheal Jacob