Ok, so this deck has t8ed a few times on MODO, and my one friend plays it all the time and has not lost a tourney playing it. I have a feeling its going to be something like Blue Tron, everyone hears about it but doesn't know what it looks like till they loose to it, and thats why I am posting it.
This deck always seemed to be vulnerable to Cranial Extraction - especially when you consider Recollect on that Cranial Extraction.
I like the idea (someone is my meta played a pretty similar deck for a while last season - which obviously gave him Memnarch in addition) - except I would diversify the creature base only slightly if possible.
This deck seems like it would really like Tatsusama.
This looks similar to the deck played by werner cloute(?) at worlds. I believe he was at 6-0 after day 1. My teammate has built it for out Type 2 FNM this friday. We'll let you know how it goes.
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Me : "This Exibit looks delicious."
~in reference to the chickens in the children's petting zoo.
It's an interesting deck..I think Kashmyr is right about Extraction against it, but, it still has some versatility, since it does run Blaze(IMO, you wouldn't name Blaze w/ Extraction..they only run 2, and it requires a boatload of mana to be effective..w/ CE, I'd name Meloku and then Keiga, probably..or even their card drawing spells, this deck REALLY suffers if you can get it into top deck mode.
well keep in mind too though that it is running hinder and mana leak. then I think in each match where cranial would be relevant you would side in your cranials and another hinder... I mean a resolved cranial would be problematic, but thats saying it resolves :).
even if you get this deck into topdeck mode, they will still be drawing tidings, telling time, and compulsive research. the deck works because of its ability to draw more cards than your opponent. I mean with a comobined 12 card draw/card quality improvement spells, it would seem to reason that being in a situation where you would need to top deck relevant spell after relevant spell shouldnt come along all that often.
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Quote from Miscalcul8edRisk »
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Hats off to [BB18 & IBTG], you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
I personally don't think extraction is that much of a threat (save for the normal every deck fear of it), as IBTG said with Mana Leak, Hinder and both another Hinder and 3 Extractions of your own it has to get off. But besides the control measures it has Blaze and Confiscate as back up. With the tron out getting that "butt load" of mana isn't that difficult. But if you guys think its such a problem what do you think could be added to it to create even more of a safe guard? Kokusho like Emminent Domain? Jushi Apprentice to create another win condition/draw engine?Maybe a few mountains and Kumano?
Are the Urza Land realy needed. The only thing that realy benefits from them is 2 copies of blaze, and you dont want to be returning urza lands with meloku. Sure you can accelrate a keiga by a turn or 2 but you can do that by running signets.
And if you have counters does it realy matter when you play your win condition?
Without cards like oblivian stone, and mindslaver the tron lands dont shine.
If you want to run a deck like this I think your better off either going the MUC route or the Eminent Domain route.
The Urza land are what MAKE the deck. They're not just for Blaze. If anything, that's just an alternate win condition. The Urzaland allow this deck to cast 2-3 spells per turn, even huge spells. Casting Tidings with enough mana left over for Meloku or Keiga AND a counterspell is ridiculous.
I like this deck. Obiously, not as much as Oblivion/Memnarch Tron, but it's pretty fun also. It isn't anything special, but a deck with many win conditions and counters can always win and this deck is no different. What makes it exceptional is the massive card draw (like a tidings using 3 land finding a meloku that can't still be played. Plain ridiculous).
Good deck, although it makes me happy there's just another good E.D match-up.
Shrug, I'm not sure how good of a matchup this would be for ED. Wildfire isn't that effective when 3 of your opponents lands tap for 7..I doubt they'd even bother to counter it, they'd just focus on Annex and Dream Leash.
mmm ED would stomp this good... I dont think there is any getting around that. I mean annex... confiscate... wildfire... icy manipulator... well I guess you all see my point.
I guess, hope to draw well and get lucky in your matches :).
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Quote from Miscalcul8edRisk »
In IBTG we trust
Quote from Veserius »
Hats off to [BB18 & IBTG], you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
And you can't say Wildfires isn't a threat. If you have a Mine, Plant, Plant, Island Island Island, and you're forced to sac 4 you've got to decide whether you want a blue mana source or Mine and Plant. That's not exactly something the deck would want to have happen. Not the biggest threat in the deck (probably annex + dream leash) but it is one.
The first time I saw this deck I thought it was interesting concept. After goldfishing it about ten times (keep in mind this was with no permission, land destruction, or hand disruption), the earliest I got the set out was turn 6. And although the deck seems to have enough steam to "hold down the fort" until the tron hits, it just doesn't. I honestly believe this is not an upper tier deck.
This is not true. Out of the list you've given, the only must counters I see are Dream Leash / Copy Enchantment. And just because the density of RELEVANT SPELLS - which is NOT to be confused with must counters - is high, doesn't mean you'll draw into them.
ED - in its most competitive form known to us so far - doesn't run any actual card draw spells, meaning that the probability of you seeing those RELEVANT spells in succession is not that high.
Kokusho / Keiga can be confiscated, and annex is only a temporarly setback when the deck has so much card draw / deck manipulation (12x in total).
This means whatever the urza piece they steal, you can easily recast it. Moreover, even with only 8 counterspells in the deck, with the card draw, you'll be in a good position to counter some of their non-must counter spells with all your mana left over. To discard the idea of UrzaUR because its counter density is low would be as foolish as ignoring the idea of UrzaBlue from last season.
And you can't say Wildfires isn't a threat.
It rarely is. The deck runs signet for a good reason. Sacrificing few lands usually puts this deck AHEAD of ED because all it needs is one or two blue mana source for countering ED's relevant followup while maintaining the ability to put out a threat - in form of meloku or Keiga, or even the game ending blaze.
Well, I just tested this deck really fast vs my ED custom, and, as I suspect, ED stomps it flat. Out of 3 games, 2 of them ED got Tron out on the Tron player, and just brought the savage beats with them, and in every game the counters were too far in between, even with the card draw.
Despite the Signets, Wildfire eats this deck with a fork and knife. A Wildfire sets this deck back so incredibly bad, it makes me want to cry. In 1 of the games, I Fired *while* having his own Tron on my side, and just savagely tore his face off right after.
I'm sorry, but from what I have just seen, ED is a big hurdle for this. The deck should def. have more countermagic in the board than just one Hinder.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
Well, I just tested this deck really fast vs my ED custom, and, as I suspect, ED stomps it flat. Out of 3 games, 2 of them ED got Tron out on the Tron player, and just brought the savage beats with them, and in every game the counters were too far in between, even with the card draw.
Despite the Signets, Wildfire eats this deck with a fork and knife. A Wildfire sets this deck back so incredibly bad, it makes me want to cry. In 1 of the games, I Fired *while* having his own Tron on my side, and just savagely tore his face off right after.
I'm sorry, but from what I have just seen, ED is a big hurdle for this. The deck should def. have more countermagic in the board than just one Hinder.
The deck runs mana leak for the early disruption. And if you're trying to claim one of :
1) ED in your playtesting ran urzatron
or
2) ED always stole enough urzatron pieces away from UrzaUR, and didn't see a single counter for the last piece of urza
Then the opponent you were facing honestly did not know how to play UrzaUR.
If you tested the matchup for more than 3 games with a competent player piloting UrzaUR, you'll see that the card advantage / manipulation that this deck offers is something to be afraid about.
Moreover, careful and select counters that you can pull off against ED is more than game-ending in the long run because ED doesn't run any manipulation / card draw.
The deck runs mana leak for the early disruption. And if you're trying to claim one of :
That doesn't really matter. All ED does in the early game is drop Signets/Searchlights anyway, and Leaking those would be a waste of time.
2) ED always stole enough urzatron pieces away from UrzaUR, and didn't see a single counter for the last piece of urza
Of course that's what it did. More to the point, it did it *before* the URza player had them all assembled...Like I said, the counters are too far and in between to really matter...In one of the games, they managed to get the Tron out, but since they tried so hard to keep the Annex and Leashes off their lands, they couldn't handle the big fat Dragons.
Besides, I specifically said my *custom* build, meaning I run *both* Remand and Leak in the main. So, yes, when trying to resolve permission when trying to deal with my own, it fails, more often than not. Besides, I only used permission on permission twice in 3 games.
If you tested the matchup for more than 3 games with a competent player piloting UrzaUR, you'll see that the card advantage / manipulation that this deck offers is something to be afraid about.
:rolleyes:. Not really. Like I have already said, both Annex, Leash, and Wildfire set this deck back something aweful. They can either dig for answers, then not have enough open mana to protect their lands. Ater all, a typical ED has about 6 mana souces out by turn 4.
Moreover, careful and select counters that you can pull off against ED is more than game-ending in the long run because ED doesn't run any manipulation / card draw.
ED doesn't run card draw? Then whats Tidings? Or Mikokoro? ED runs just enough to exhaust 8 permission cards, 4 of whcih are useless late game. Heck, they areuseless mid game in the face of ED's Signets, bounce lands, and searchlights.
Seriously, just test the deck. It takes like 30 minutes, and it makes you sounds a lot more credible.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
Well, I just tested this deck really fast vs my ED custom, and, as I suspect, ED stomps it flat. Out of 3 games, 2 of them ED got Tron out on the Tron player, and just brought the savage beats with them, and in every game the counters were too far in between, even with the card draw.
Despite the Signets, Wildfire eats this deck with a fork and knife. A Wildfire sets this deck back so incredibly bad, it makes me want to cry. In 1 of the games, I Fired *while* having his own Tron on my side, and just savagely tore his face off right after.
I'm sorry, but from what I have just seen, ED is a big hurdle for this. The deck should def. have more countermagic in the board than just one Hinder.
If I was home I'd have done it myself, well done GPile.
Jeans- seriously, all points I'd have made and some I had already are agreed. A deck that bases itself much on lands against a deck that leaves you with few...and steals them, is going to end up being a bad matchup. A competent player will test results before disregarding players who do test.
I don't run MD leaks like Gpile, but if you want card draw talk to Tidings and Mikokoro.
Well, it's not totally unwinnable on their side. I have been testing it some more, and if you don't get enough land hosing things, it could be problems. Then they can churn threats out.
One big problem with that, though: Meloku dies to Wildfire, and, with ED's Shinka, Shiazo, and Minamo, all of ED's dragon legends eat the URza's for dinner. In fact, just last game I dealt with a Meloku and like 8 tokens by Wildfiring, then dropping a Kokusho right after that (via help from Signets and Searchlights). Since they had Tron out, they had exactly enough to drop down their Keiga-problem is, I had a Shinka out, so I was bashing for days, and evntually just pitched it to the Miren I was holding for like 8 turns and killed him.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
ED definetly seems like it would be the hardest match-up for this deck. So what cards do you think could help in the match up? Playing Scour in the sb, and playing it off tendo/forbidden orchard? Or playing some kind of bounce to return the land to the URza's hand?
Aftermath: The deck looks like a good start, but 2 of the reasons red was splashed was for Pyroclasm and Blaze. Your missing a replacement for both of those. But it does look consistant.
aftermath, top is something I would have to test alot. I dont ussually like to run it in a deck without shuffle effects, but this deck has alot of deck manipulation, and it might prove to be a valuable tron piece locator aswell as just improving your card quality.
convolute is meh... I think its probably safest to keep blaze in there as an alternate win, rather than another situational counter.
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Quote from Miscalcul8edRisk »
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Quote from Veserius »
Hats off to [BB18 & IBTG], you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
What about Rewind in the Sb instead of the Hinder or a few other cards?
The one thing that I always was very different with people on with the old UrzaTron Blue was that I always played the 12 counter version, and was very comfortable doing so - when playing the 8 counter version, it felt like a lot of bad spells were still getting through.
The reason that I think that ED has a good match against this deck (and why is it that in every thread, it always turns into ED players have to compare that deck to ED?) is because it can reasonably be compared to the old Tooth and Nail - which was an odd matchup for the 8 counter blue tron - right down to the disruption of the mana base - by the time you get past those spells, which are obviously must counter, you then have to deal with powerful effects (Wildfire for example).
I wasn't a big fan of the 8 counter version of that deck because I felt I never had enough counterspells to maintain my side of the board - especially when 4 of those were mana leak - a spell that is gets worse as the game goes on (but still a very good spell) because of the massive amount of mana accel that is being played right now (even ED uses Signet).
URza:
4 [AP] Shivan Reef
1 [RAV] Watery Grave
4 [8E] Urza's Mine
4 [8E] Urza's Power Plant
4 [9E] Urza's Tower
4 [9E] Island (1)
2 [BOK] Tendo Ice Bridge
1 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
// Creatures
4 [CHK] Keiga, the Tide Star
4 [CHK] Meloku the Clouded Mirror
4 [RAV] Telling Time
4 [8E] Mana Leak
2 [9E] Confiscate
3 [RAV] Dimir Signet
4 [7E] Pyroclasm
3 [CHK] Hinder
2 [8E] Blaze
2 [9E] Tidings
4 [RAV] Compulsive Research
This is not my deck, so I can't really explain the card choices, but I thought I would bring this deck into the light.
I like the idea (someone is my meta played a pretty similar deck for a while last season - which obviously gave him Memnarch in addition) - except I would diversify the creature base only slightly if possible.
This deck seems like it would really like Tatsusama.
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Me : "This Exibit looks delicious."
~in reference to the chickens in the children's petting zoo.
It's an interesting deck..I think Kashmyr is right about Extraction against it, but, it still has some versatility, since it does run Blaze(IMO, you wouldn't name Blaze w/ Extraction..they only run 2, and it requires a boatload of mana to be effective..w/ CE, I'd name Meloku and then Keiga, probably..or even their card drawing spells, this deck REALLY suffers if you can get it into top deck mode.
even if you get this deck into topdeck mode, they will still be drawing tidings, telling time, and compulsive research. the deck works because of its ability to draw more cards than your opponent. I mean with a comobined 12 card draw/card quality improvement spells, it would seem to reason that being in a situation where you would need to top deck relevant spell after relevant spell shouldnt come along all that often.
Anon - control RGW
And if you have counters does it realy matter when you play your win condition?
Without cards like oblivian stone, and mindslaver the tron lands dont shine.
If you want to run a deck like this I think your better off either going the MUC route or the Eminent Domain route.
The Urza land are what MAKE the deck. They're not just for Blaze. If anything, that's just an alternate win condition. The Urzaland allow this deck to cast 2-3 spells per turn, even huge spells. Casting Tidings with enough mana left over for Meloku or Keiga AND a counterspell is ridiculous.
Good deck, although it makes me happy there's just another good E.D match-up.
I guess, hope to draw well and get lucky in your matches :).
Anon - control RGW
Cyan- well since the deck runs 8x max. Counters md, you'd have to (in my deck) counter:
Icy Manipulator
Annex
Dream Leash
Kokusho/Keiga
Copy Enchantment.
And you can't say Wildfires isn't a threat. If you have a Mine, Plant, Plant, Island Island Island, and you're forced to sac 4 you've got to decide whether you want a blue mana source or Mine and Plant. That's not exactly something the deck would want to have happen. Not the biggest threat in the deck (probably annex + dream leash) but it is one.
This is not true. Out of the list you've given, the only must counters I see are Dream Leash / Copy Enchantment. And just because the density of RELEVANT SPELLS - which is NOT to be confused with must counters - is high, doesn't mean you'll draw into them.
ED - in its most competitive form known to us so far - doesn't run any actual card draw spells, meaning that the probability of you seeing those RELEVANT spells in succession is not that high.
Kokusho / Keiga can be confiscated, and annex is only a temporarly setback when the deck has so much card draw / deck manipulation (12x in total).
This means whatever the urza piece they steal, you can easily recast it. Moreover, even with only 8 counterspells in the deck, with the card draw, you'll be in a good position to counter some of their non-must counter spells with all your mana left over. To discard the idea of UrzaUR because its counter density is low would be as foolish as ignoring the idea of UrzaBlue from last season.
It rarely is. The deck runs signet for a good reason. Sacrificing few lands usually puts this deck AHEAD of ED because all it needs is one or two blue mana source for countering ED's relevant followup while maintaining the ability to put out a threat - in form of meloku or Keiga, or even the game ending blaze.
Despite the Signets, Wildfire eats this deck with a fork and knife. A Wildfire sets this deck back so incredibly bad, it makes me want to cry. In 1 of the games, I Fired *while* having his own Tron on my side, and just savagely tore his face off right after.
I'm sorry, but from what I have just seen, ED is a big hurdle for this. The deck should def. have more countermagic in the board than just one Hinder.
The deck runs mana leak for the early disruption. And if you're trying to claim one of :
1) ED in your playtesting ran urzatron
or
2) ED always stole enough urzatron pieces away from UrzaUR, and didn't see a single counter for the last piece of urza
Then the opponent you were facing honestly did not know how to play UrzaUR.
If you tested the matchup for more than 3 games with a competent player piloting UrzaUR, you'll see that the card advantage / manipulation that this deck offers is something to be afraid about.
Moreover, careful and select counters that you can pull off against ED is more than game-ending in the long run because ED doesn't run any manipulation / card draw.
That doesn't really matter. All ED does in the early game is drop Signets/Searchlights anyway, and Leaking those would be a waste of time.
Of course that's what it did. More to the point, it did it *before* the URza player had them all assembled...Like I said, the counters are too far and in between to really matter...In one of the games, they managed to get the Tron out, but since they tried so hard to keep the Annex and Leashes off their lands, they couldn't handle the big fat Dragons.
Besides, I specifically said my *custom* build, meaning I run *both* Remand and Leak in the main. So, yes, when trying to resolve permission when trying to deal with my own, it fails, more often than not. Besides, I only used permission on permission twice in 3 games.
:rolleyes:. Not really. Like I have already said, both Annex, Leash, and Wildfire set this deck back something aweful. They can either dig for answers, then not have enough open mana to protect their lands. Ater all, a typical ED has about 6 mana souces out by turn 4.
ED doesn't run card draw? Then whats Tidings? Or Mikokoro? ED runs just enough to exhaust 8 permission cards, 4 of whcih are useless late game. Heck, they areuseless mid game in the face of ED's Signets, bounce lands, and searchlights.
Seriously, just test the deck. It takes like 30 minutes, and it makes you sounds a lot more credible.
The Watery Graves are in here so i can splash black with my side board where i will have done soon
iam thinkin of spalashing in Green and putting Plaque Boiler in here.
tell me what yout think.
4x Urza's Mine
4x Urza's Power Plant
4x Urza's Tower
8x Island
4x Watery Grave
4x Keiga, the Tide Star
3x Meloku the Clouded Mirror
3x Jushi Apprentice
“What do you want me to destroy first, my maker?
Akroma, Angel of Fury
If I was home I'd have done it myself, well done GPile.
Jeans- seriously, all points I'd have made and some I had already are agreed. A deck that bases itself much on lands against a deck that leaves you with few...and steals them, is going to end up being a bad matchup. A competent player will test results before disregarding players who do test.
I don't run MD leaks like Gpile, but if you want card draw talk to Tidings and Mikokoro.
And Gpile already mentioned that too.
EmminentDomain= threats for days.
I still like this deck though.
One big problem with that, though: Meloku dies to Wildfire, and, with ED's Shinka, Shiazo, and Minamo, all of ED's dragon legends eat the URza's for dinner. In fact, just last game I dealt with a Meloku and like 8 tokens by Wildfiring, then dropping a Kokusho right after that (via help from Signets and Searchlights). Since they had Tron out, they had exactly enough to drop down their Keiga-problem is, I had a Shinka out, so I was bashing for days, and evntually just pitched it to the Miren I was holding for like 8 turns and killed him.
Aftermath: The deck looks like a good start, but 2 of the reasons red was splashed was for Pyroclasm and Blaze. Your missing a replacement for both of those. But it does look consistant.
top is something I would have to test alot. I dont ussually like to run it in a deck without shuffle effects, but this deck has alot of deck manipulation, and it might prove to be a valuable tron piece locator aswell as just improving your card quality.
convolute is meh... I think its probably safest to keep blaze in there as an alternate win, rather than another situational counter.
Anon - control RGW
Ix-
The one thing that I always was very different with people on with the old UrzaTron Blue was that I always played the 12 counter version, and was very comfortable doing so - when playing the 8 counter version, it felt like a lot of bad spells were still getting through.
The reason that I think that ED has a good match against this deck (and why is it that in every thread, it always turns into ED players have to compare that deck to ED?) is because it can reasonably be compared to the old Tooth and Nail - which was an odd matchup for the 8 counter blue tron - right down to the disruption of the mana base - by the time you get past those spells, which are obviously must counter, you then have to deal with powerful effects (Wildfire for example).
I wasn't a big fan of the 8 counter version of that deck because I felt I never had enough counterspells to maintain my side of the board - especially when 4 of those were mana leak - a spell that is gets worse as the game goes on (but still a very good spell) because of the massive amount of mana accel that is being played right now (even ED uses Signet).
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