So I haven't looked at the RW control for a while because I've been on a big extended kick. Story Circle isn't being played because......
Oh, and has anyone given up on Firemane Angel thing like I have? With cards like Putrefy and Lightning Helix, etc being everywhere. I find it kinda pointless to pay 6 mana to gain 1 life a turn. You might as well just run the White Honden.
I've been experimenting some more with the Lifegain-Weirding idea, but it's heading in a completely different direction now, so I'll leave it off this thread (for anyone interested, try mixing countermagic with R/W board sweepers...)
Anyway, back to basics, which means finding some reliable ways to keep your threats on the board while you blow everything else up. There's two issues that come up immediately:
Issue 1: Mana Acceleration
The good recursive threats all cost over 4 mana, so we need some form of acceleration.
Seething Song's very powerful, but there's really few things to accelerate to beyond Kumano at 5cc, and he's subpar in the current environment.
The only alternative is artifact mana, which cuts the choices down to Boros Signet and Spectral Searchlight. Signet accelerates to turn 3 Wrath, Fetters or Blinky, and it lets you keep 2-mana hands consistently.
So there I was, fishbowling for a bit, when suddenly one of the most powerful turn 3 plays for R/W control I've seen pops right out:
Turn 1: Any land
Turn 2: Boros Garrison
Turn 3: Signet, play land, tap signet, Gift of Estates
You suddenly jump from possible mana screw to ensuring 7 mana on turn 6. Not to mention you play your threats one turn earlier, solve any color issues right away, thin out your deck and replenish your hand! Given there are few proactive plays for R/W on the first few turns other than fetch land (which you usually don't, since it forces you to discard), I think it's a gigantic quality jump for the deck.
Seriously, I don't know how I missed this one for so long!!!
Issue 2: Threat protection
Like I said, we have few options when it comes to keeping threats on the table. Right now there are three choices available.
1. You run a protection effect like Otherworldly Journey. Here you're basically trading your protection effect (and mana) for their removal.
2. You play more threats than they do removal. This is no Boros Weenie, and trying to accomplish this hurts your deck consistency and reliability.
3. You run threats that can take care of themselves, like Blinky, Shard Phoenix, Genju or Yosei.
Number 3 is usually the way to go, but I can attest that it's often not enough. The three most reliable threats are small, which means you hit for two for a few turns while granting them time to recover. Yosei's graveyard effect is awesome, but only if you can keep the pressure with another fatty the same turn it dies. Since we don't run that many threats to begin with, this isn't the most likely scenario.
Not to sound repetitive, but this is exactly why a card like Razia's Purification is needed. There's little this deck does with over 6 mana besides pumping a Genju or reanimating a Firemane Angel, while most other decks have either the draw or the engines to use these resources far better. Letting them keep those extra resources is asking for trouble.
Sure, it's hard dealing with a Kokusho with 3-4 mana on the board, but it's just as hard for them to deal with your Yosei. R/W is the best color for board control, so it's a lot more probable you'll deal with their threats effectively, while the same cannot be said the other way around. The same goes for recovering; between GoE and the extra land you normally draw, it's much more likely you'll recover from a Purification sooner than they will.
Thoughts of Ruin becomes once again viable due to the inclusion of artifact mana. Between GoE, Blinky and the bouncelands, it's quite easy to play Thoughts for 5-7 during the early- to mid-game, sometimes keeping a Signet, sometimes even allowing you to play land afterwards. Same goes for RP, allowing you plenty of resource control without sacrificing color consistency or too much tempo.
The sideboard shows some new tech:
Suppression Field is fast and shuts down Jitte, Miren, Greater Good, Jushi Apprentice and a whole bunch of card this deck struggles with. It also makes it more difficult to bounce Blinky back or reccur Phoenix, but the beauty of it is you can always sac it to a Purification later on.
The most obvious use for Sideswipe is against turn 3 Cranial Extraction, but it has some flexibility too. My play group has shown MUC siding in Shifting Borders against bouncelands and Boseiju, which so happens to be Arcane. It also foils Greater Good's reanimation spells, which can end games on their own. I've also spotted and Ire of Kaminari player here and there (some people are just plain crazy)...
Comments? Please, just no more singling out RP for other reason than its inherent weaknesses. If you wanna bad-mouth RP, take into account its role in the deck strategy and, if you can, find a suitable replacement, alright?
Enjoy!
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People hiss and grunt at Mark Rosewater for the state of the game. Few realize, though, that it is Aaron Forsythe who is directly responsible of the current state of affairs due to negligence as head of Magic R&D and a completely skewed view of the game as a whole.
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
RP can be effective: Check out meyer truman's RW-control from a Sunday 11/20 tournament on MtG Online (630572). It runs Kiyomaro and uses Boros Garrison and RP to great effect. I'm not saying it's the best way to go though, but he made it work just fine.
3. You run threats that can take care of themselves, like Blinky, Shard Phoenix, Genju or Yosei.
If "Number 3 is the way to go" why isn't Firemane Angel in your list? It fits the criteria of #3 very nicely, and is generally accepted as the most effective threat for R/W. (not that I think things are good just because they're popular, I'm not stupid) I will admit that I wasn't too enthralled with the Angel when I first saw her - I actually thought something like "I'll never have the mana for the recurrsion ability" - but testing has showed me just how awsome she is.
Oh, and has anyone given up on Firemane Angel thing like I have? With cards like Putrefy and Lightning Helix, etc being everywhere. I find it kinda pointless to pay 6 mana to gain 1 life a turn. You might as well just run the White Honden.
the powerer of the angel is that even if they kill it you get an effect but more importantly if and when the game goes long you have a threat every turn once you hit 10 mana. Only B/G has the same ability to keep recurring threats. Also, in any deck running Searing meditation the angel is key for the engine.
"Wall of Roots trades with Doran. Doran doesn't like Wall of Roots. You would think he might, as they are both trees. But Doran is a sociopathic tree. He and other trees don't get along – hell, he doesn't even get along with himself. Have you seen what happens when you cast two Dorans? Let me tell you, it isn't pretty." -Uri Peleg
If "Number 3 is the way to go" why isn't Firemane Angel in your list? It fits the criteria of #3 very nicely, and is generally accepted as the most effective threat for R/W. (not that I think things are good just because they're popular, I'm not stupid) I will admit that I wasn't too enthralled with the Angel when I first saw her - I actually thought something like "I'll never have the mana for the recurrsion ability" - but testing has showed me just how awsome she is.
Yep, the Angel does fill the criteria, but it depends entirely in the way you build your deck. Since I'm already including 4x RP and at least 2x ToR, it becomes quite hard to reach 10, and Firemane is weaker than Yosei if you're not recurring her from the graveyard.
It's really a matter of personal preference. I prefer to keep the game capped at 6 mana tops rather than risk my opponent having enough resources to play some nasty splice tricks or assemble a critical mass combo. That said, Firemane works wonders against MUC, and is a more resilient recursive threat than Shard Phoenix.
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People hiss and grunt at Mark Rosewater for the state of the game. Few realize, though, that it is Aaron Forsythe who is directly responsible of the current state of affairs due to negligence as head of Magic R&D and a completely skewed view of the game as a whole.
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
Have we completly given up on Loxodon Gatekeeper, the nastly little kismet is still in my deck, but if theres a reason not to have it in I'd like to hear it thanks.
For me, the 4x wrath of god and 2x final judgment makes it a bit iffy... i also feel that he's too small for his effect... if he had a bit more meat, id consider running him, but he only is spectacular with other cards *cough* hokori *cough* ...
Then again, the MAIN reason I have is that i don't want to ditch anything else for him... but that's strictly just for me. My reason above would be a more "generic" reason.
Boros signet is a solid choice in the list above, but do not reccomend thoughts of ruin, there are too many decks that can just ignore the effect and keep on pounding you.
Critical mass: 3 / 2
They simply do not have enough counter magic for me to care. Also, the version I fought was not running hinders MD, so firemane owned him. Games I lost, Jitte came down early and I found no fetters.
Good Form: 1 / 4
With no enchantment removal MD on my deck, the 5 pre sideboarded games seemed pretty onesided. I did get enough burn in one game to do okay, but thats about it. Pre SB this match sucks.
Glare: 4 / 1
Faiths fetters showed up for vitu gazi and for glares, searing came down on turn 4 and 5 in two games respectively, and starting making him really overextend. Decent matchup.
G/B control: 3 / 2
Scarabs are annoying with no devouring lights MD. (they are SB) But I saved faith's fetters for sexy stuff like Kokusho, to make the opponent play another with less overall benefit. Two games gleancrawler came down and too many black dragons started happening.
W/R weenie: 5 / 0
Destroyed. Utterly.
Jushi Control: 2 / 3
Firemane angel went the distance in 2 games, and BOY O BOY DOSE THIS TAKE TOO LONG.
I would take gift of estates over the kite... mainly because its cheaper, and can search for duals (which ive found to be actually somewhat important at times).
I think I would (heck, i am) play devouring light over pyroclasm, as it's good against aggro, but MUCH more effective against control.
If you were to dirch the kite, i say divining tops go... but i think they should go regardless, as you dont have nearly enough shuffle effects to make it good.
edit: upon further review, why aren't you using eiganjo castle and shinka? theres no reason to run basic land over a single copy really... and id also suggest using sunhome, fortress of the legion as well, as it seriously helps improve the quality of your (somewhat few, mind you) wind conditions
I would strongly urge you keep the Kite/Top engine. Every time I play this deck for our gauntlet, the only thing it lacks is a reliable engine. Kite+Top thins and finds answers, something this deck has a bit of problem with in the long run (see Gifts).
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
the thing is, top is useless without kite. in that build, kite is his only shuffle mechanism. as for the kite itself, it is definitely more "reliable" in the sense that you can continue to use it over the course of the game. It is however, significantly slower and will suck up a lot more time... once it starts running, it becomes far superior. But it's also easier to stop in a sense, since the opponent can draw into an answer to deal with it... or just stop playing unnessecary land as they KNOW you will benefit from it.
I don't feel that the "engine" of the deck is flawed... I'm more concerned with being able to adapt it correctly against all the decks of said gauntlet. I'm going to be searching for ways to try and improve the control matchup, as games tend to last overly long when i play against control... if i play against aggro, i simply win. lol.
another thing to briefly mention: kite/top engine will be entirely useless against aggro, whereas gift of estates can feasibly be played against an aggro player that's on the play (heck, even not since at least i use guildlands). the aggro decks ive been playing usually will tend to top out at 3 or 4 mana in the early stages of the game, as they are not trying to set up mana development for the late game. since the kite will come online on turn 3... that leaves some margin for error, and chances are, you will want to start toasting stuff when you hit turn three, not search out more mana.
Not entirely. Top can be used to fetch the Kite, or just fetch the needed sweeper. Not to say it is incredible without the Kite, but it is not gawdawful. Besides, Mono-B, Mono-W, and Mono-R used the 2 in tandem very sucessfully during block, and none of them really had any reliable shuffle effects.
It is however, significantly slower and will suck up a lot more time...
Isn't that what this deck has an abundance of? Time? Most games I find they are dead around turn 25-30, with about 12 land out. That is plenty enough time to use the Kite. And if you run out of land or just don't want to thin anymore, failing to find just to shuffle is good enough.
But it's also easier to stop in a sense, since the opponent can draw into an answer to deal with it...
That's not really an apt argument...You could say that for every engine.
or just stop playing unnessecary land as they KNOW you will benefit from it.
I think you have it confused with another card. How can them playing land affect your engine in any way?
another thing to briefly mention: kite/top engine will be entirely useless against aggro,
Well, this deck sould never even lose to any form of aggro, so it just seems that even if it is a tad slow vs aggro, you should have those games sealed up by turn 5, 6 at the latest anyways.
since the kite will come online on turn 3... that leaves some margin for error, and chances are, you will want to start toasting stuff when you hit turn three, not search out more mana.
No one is trying to get the Kite up asap. It is a long term engine, for the grueling games of control vs. control, where the engine becomes just as good as cards in your hand. It should bever even really see play turn 3 vs aggro in the 1st place.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
the top kite engine is mana intensive, easily disrupted with a naturalize or pithing needle and it mandates the occupation of 8 slots in your deck. just doesnt seem worth it.
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Hats off to [BB18 & IBTG], you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
I shouldve stuck to that. Because that made much more sense, lol
No one is trying to get the Kite up asap. It is a long term engine, for the grueling games of control vs. control, where the engine becomes just as good as cards in your hand. It should bever even really see play turn 3 vs aggro in the 1st place.
Against control, if you wait it out they are going to draw into the answer anyway. At least with gift of estates, you can hold it out against control as well, play it early if you can, and you get 3 lands for two mana all at once, as opposed to 3 lands for 9 mana over the course of three turns... you tell me which you think is better. even if you can do it more than 3 times, youve sucked up so much time and energy to do it
I agree that Gifts of Estatres is better mainly because the land thinning potential is about the same and it uses less slots. As Mike said it will take three turns and 9 mana to thin the same amount of lands. Plus if you draw maultiple Gifts you can always skip a land drop to thin some more. Missing a land drop in this case is comparable to spendind nine mana for the same effect with kite.
"Wall of Roots trades with Doran. Doran doesn't like Wall of Roots. You would think he might, as they are both trees. But Doran is a sociopathic tree. He and other trees don't get along – hell, he doesn't even get along with himself. Have you seen what happens when you cast two Dorans? Let me tell you, it isn't pretty." -Uri Peleg
Is the build that focuses on Searing Meditation and Shrines and Firemane Angle still viable, I think its a cool build but if theres a reason against it I'd like to hear it...because I can't afford to build the GWR version cause those Loxodons are so damned expensive
There is a very valid point on GoE being superior to other search/shuffle engines for R/W. GoE's mana cost is so damn low you can get away with some crazy stuff...
With 4x GoE and 4x Signet plus the bouncelands and the duals, you can get as low as 20 land without any color or mana issues, and theoretically you might get away with even lower land counts. That means more space for threats and answers, and that's an advantage we should exploit considering we have no draw or deck manipulation engines.
The one thing about GoE I see few people exploring is its hand replenishment capabilities. GoE gives you as many cards as Concentrate for half the mana. Sure, they're 'useless' land cards, but we just got a 'hand size matters' mechaninc in Saviors.
Kiyomaro has recently become popular, but the one card I'm urging you to reconsider is Thoughts of Ruin. The main problems with ToR are its symmetrical effect and its loss of effectiveness as your hand gets depleted. GoE takes care of both these issues, since it provides both a bigger effect and the means to recover faster than your opponent.
If you factor in the fact most of your answers tend to sit around your hand for a while, you're facing Ruin for 5-7 quite often. That's enough to hurt even the turbo-growth green allows these days, not to mention there are a lot of dangerous nonbasic land to watch out for right now. Even if they recover once, I've yet to see a green deck that comes back after having all its field blown up repeatedly.
If you have a threat or some signets down, it usually buys you the time you need to deal some serious damage or even win the game. If you don't, you basically have reset the game with a favorable hand. If the have threats in play... wait, isn't that what usually WON'T happen against R/W?
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People hiss and grunt at Mark Rosewater for the state of the game. Few realize, though, that it is Aaron Forsythe who is directly responsible of the current state of affairs due to negligence as head of Magic R&D and a completely skewed view of the game as a whole.
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
*sigh* It's still not so much a matter of us controlling the opponent, it's being able to knock them out in a fast enough matter. Aside from Gifts (which I have not explored deeply enough to have completely conclusive data, I have played roughly 15 games, some sideboarded and others not) and against a variety of builds... So I'm not sure I'm able to have definitive answers yet as my playtesting is still somewhat limited.
Ivory Masks and Needles are crutial to the SB, although that seems like a no-brainer... It's been my main tools at slowing down gifts and heartbeat, which have been some of my more "troubling" matchups. MUC has also presented a problem, but only in the fact that the first game usually goes on forever... I've got more answers to their threats than they have counters, but theyve got way more counters than my threats. You can see the problem can't you? lol.
I think this is more of a metagame deck. If you have a lot of aggro in your field, and a lot of creature decks, this is the deck for you. I've mentioned somewhere else that I have never lost a game against aggro yet... Once I was even mana screwed and I somehow pulled it out of the hat (not just a small mana screw... it was a bad one). Simply put, aggro can't beat this. lol
If combo/control is more heavy, this is where it starts to fail... Not that it can't win, but more that it can't win quickly enough. Time is a factor in tournaments after all.
Agreed. It's quite hard to deal with Control or Combo using conventional beatdown as the win condition. However, I don't think a control/control game must be decided on account on dropping a single threat and hoping they don't have an answer, because, well, that won't happen...
Games against MUC take so long that a single red honden becomes quite a liability for them over time. It's not fancy but it works, plus it allows you to keep the pressure. I imagine Searing Meditation/Firemane Angelcan work a similar role, as their only possible answer is to boomerang the enchantment, or sideboard Cranial.
Another win condition worth trying is simply mana denial. With no good instant-speed draw beyond Jushi Apprentice, it's possible to blow up more lands than they can hope to recover by drawing. Boiling Seas is a must-have SB, probably even backed up with Boseiju.
Most combo decks in the format work by exploiting a powerful enchantment engine. To exploit it at its fullest, they not only require at least six land, but a SPECIFIC combination of land. In order to accomplish this, they must run lots of mana acceleration, which incidentially powers up GoE, which incidentially powers up ToR, which trades with land up to 7-to-1. They may hold back their combo until they reach critical mass and attempt a 1-turn kill, but they're only giving you the chance to solidify your board and blow up their resources anyway.
If you blow up their land once, they probably will recover. If you pull it off twice, chances are they will have spent so many resources staying on the game they won't be able to keep up. It ain't pretty, and it certainly ain't fast, but at least it brings games down to a conclusion.
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People hiss and grunt at Mark Rosewater for the state of the game. Few realize, though, that it is Aaron Forsythe who is directly responsible of the current state of affairs due to negligence as head of Magic R&D and a completely skewed view of the game as a whole.
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
Good points on my deck list.
I have been alternating between devouring and clasm for a while, and I have also been alternating between top / kite and GoE for a while too.
Why do I play clasm MD and DevLight SB?
- Because pyroclasm can 2 for 1, and does so very easily and at an efficient cost. Light get bigger threats, and is amazing against dragons.
This is a metagame choice as there are some blazing fast deck in my FNM scene.
Why Kite / Top?
Well, I have since switched to GoEs and Im currently using them, but the testing was done with that engine, so.... heck, post what you used eh?
the top kite engine is mana intensive, easily disrupted with a naturalize or pithing needle and it mandates the occupation of 8 slots in your deck. just doesnt seem worth it.
Since when did them wasting a Needle on the Top rather than your Angel bad? I find most of the time a Needle for Angel/SP put's me at a huge disadvantage. If they want to Needle the engine, that's acceptable. If they still want to Needle the win, the engine kicks in and fetches as many copies of it in the shortest amount of time.
Who cares if it's mana intensive guys? Jesus, like I have already said, this deck has nothing better to do than pay a mere (4) a turn mid game to fetch all the right answers. It is usually almost always draw, land, go, vs control anyway. It would be better to be able to filter out all the dead draws then, as opposed to having to do it while facing down a big fat flying win condition.
I do agree that it takes up a few spaces, but it is not like each of them is useless on their own. In fact, even without Top, Kite proves to be superior to GoE, as it will end up granting you quite a bit more land's in the long run. You really should not be needed to fetch lands on turn two; this deck is hardly ever mana screwed.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
It's been pretty consistent at winning. MUC/UBC are a bad matchup, but what can you do?
It drops down an early Howling Mine, then draws into everything needed to win, and can even play Sudden Impact for upwards of 9 damage when played right. Presence of the Wise stalls and creatures aren't a threat either. LMK what you think!
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“Should I be worried? He does seem dangerously cool, like a young Lando Calrissian, with a dream.”
Sorry I haven't really been posting anything lately guys, my school does trimesters, so I'm a little busy right now with EOT (End of Term) work.
My build hasn't really changed at all. I am thinking of replacing the two maindeck Final Judgments with Devouring LIghts, taking the Devouring Lights in the SB out, and replacing those with Pithing Needles. I'm guessing this would be a good move overall, but I don't really have the funds for the Needles.
I would suggest to everyone to try replacing Char with Yamabushi's Flame, this card is a real life savor.
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Oh, and has anyone given up on Firemane Angel thing like I have? With cards like Putrefy and Lightning Helix, etc being everywhere. I find it kinda pointless to pay 6 mana to gain 1 life a turn. You might as well just run the White Honden.
Anyway, back to basics, which means finding some reliable ways to keep your threats on the board while you blow everything else up. There's two issues that come up immediately:
Issue 1: Mana Acceleration
The good recursive threats all cost over 4 mana, so we need some form of acceleration.
Seething Song's very powerful, but there's really few things to accelerate to beyond Kumano at 5cc, and he's subpar in the current environment.
The only alternative is artifact mana, which cuts the choices down to Boros Signet and Spectral Searchlight. Signet accelerates to turn 3 Wrath, Fetters or Blinky, and it lets you keep 2-mana hands consistently.
So there I was, fishbowling for a bit, when suddenly one of the most powerful turn 3 plays for R/W control I've seen pops right out:
Turn 1: Any land
Turn 2: Boros Garrison
Turn 3: Signet, play land, tap signet, Gift of Estates
You suddenly jump from possible mana screw to ensuring 7 mana on turn 6. Not to mention you play your threats one turn earlier, solve any color issues right away, thin out your deck and replenish your hand! Given there are few proactive plays for R/W on the first few turns other than fetch land (which you usually don't, since it forces you to discard), I think it's a gigantic quality jump for the deck.
Seriously, I don't know how I missed this one for so long!!!
Issue 2: Threat protection
Like I said, we have few options when it comes to keeping threats on the table. Right now there are three choices available.
1. You run a protection effect like Otherworldly Journey. Here you're basically trading your protection effect (and mana) for their removal.
2. You play more threats than they do removal. This is no Boros Weenie, and trying to accomplish this hurts your deck consistency and reliability.
3. You run threats that can take care of themselves, like Blinky, Shard Phoenix, Genju or Yosei.
Number 3 is usually the way to go, but I can attest that it's often not enough. The three most reliable threats are small, which means you hit for two for a few turns while granting them time to recover. Yosei's graveyard effect is awesome, but only if you can keep the pressure with another fatty the same turn it dies. Since we don't run that many threats to begin with, this isn't the most likely scenario.
Not to sound repetitive, but this is exactly why a card like Razia's Purification is needed. There's little this deck does with over 6 mana besides pumping a Genju or reanimating a Firemane Angel, while most other decks have either the draw or the engines to use these resources far better. Letting them keep those extra resources is asking for trouble.
Sure, it's hard dealing with a Kokusho with 3-4 mana on the board, but it's just as hard for them to deal with your Yosei. R/W is the best color for board control, so it's a lot more probable you'll deal with their threats effectively, while the same cannot be said the other way around. The same goes for recovering; between GoE and the extra land you normally draw, it's much more likely you'll recover from a Purification sooner than they will.
Here's my new decklist:
9 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Boros Garrison
1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
1 Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep
1 Eiganjo Castle
Creatures
3 Yosei, the Morning Star
4 Blinking Spirit
2 Shard Phoenix
4 Boros Signet
4 Gift of Estates
4 Faith's Fetters
4 Lightning Helix
2 Devouring Light
4 Wrath of God
4 Razia's Purification
3 Thoughts of Ruin
2 Sunforger
4 Sideswipe
4 Suppression Field
3 Ivory Mask
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Scour
Thoughts of Ruin becomes once again viable due to the inclusion of artifact mana. Between GoE, Blinky and the bouncelands, it's quite easy to play Thoughts for 5-7 during the early- to mid-game, sometimes keeping a Signet, sometimes even allowing you to play land afterwards. Same goes for RP, allowing you plenty of resource control without sacrificing color consistency or too much tempo.
The sideboard shows some new tech:
Suppression Field is fast and shuts down Jitte, Miren, Greater Good, Jushi Apprentice and a whole bunch of card this deck struggles with. It also makes it more difficult to bounce Blinky back or reccur Phoenix, but the beauty of it is you can always sac it to a Purification later on.
The most obvious use for Sideswipe is against turn 3 Cranial Extraction, but it has some flexibility too. My play group has shown MUC siding in Shifting Borders against bouncelands and Boseiju, which so happens to be Arcane. It also foils Greater Good's reanimation spells, which can end games on their own. I've also spotted and Ire of Kaminari player here and there (some people are just plain crazy)...
Comments? Please, just no more singling out RP for other reason than its inherent weaknesses. If you wanna bad-mouth RP, take into account its role in the deck strategy and, if you can, find a suitable replacement, alright?
Enjoy!
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
If "Number 3 is the way to go" why isn't Firemane Angel in your list? It fits the criteria of #3 very nicely, and is generally accepted as the most effective threat for R/W. (not that I think things are good just because they're popular, I'm not stupid) I will admit that I wasn't too enthralled with the Angel when I first saw her - I actually thought something like "I'll never have the mana for the recurrsion ability" - but testing has showed me just how awsome she is.
These boards need Lucida Blackletter as a font option.
the powerer of the angel is that even if they kill it you get an effect but more importantly if and when the game goes long you have a threat every turn once you hit 10 mana. Only B/G has the same ability to keep recurring threats. Also, in any deck running Searing meditation the angel is key for the engine.
I kill you with
it.
Yep, the Angel does fill the criteria, but it depends entirely in the way you build your deck. Since I'm already including 4x RP and at least 2x ToR, it becomes quite hard to reach 10, and Firemane is weaker than Yosei if you're not recurring her from the graveyard.
It's really a matter of personal preference. I prefer to keep the game capped at 6 mana tops rather than risk my opponent having enough resources to play some nasty splice tricks or assemble a critical mass combo. That said, Firemane works wonders against MUC, and is a more resilient recursive threat than Shard Phoenix.
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
Thirsty for Chicken?
:vader: Yankees Rock:vader:
:trooper: :trooper: :trooper: :trooper: :trooper: :trooper:
The Story of Raffinity
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=100284#post100284
Get em ' While they're Hot!!
T2:
G/W Control
1.X:
Goblin Revenge
Then again, the MAIN reason I have is that i don't want to ditch anything else for him... but that's strictly just for me. My reason above would be a more "generic" reason.
Here Ill contribute my gauntlet version.
3 Sacred Foundry
4 Battlefield forge
8 Plains
8 Mountain
Creatures: 7
4 Firemane Angel
3 Yosei, The Morning Star
3 Searing meditation
4 Faith's fetters
4 lightning helix
4 pyroclasm
4 Char
4 Wrath of God
2 Final Judgement
3 Journeyer's kite (or Gift of estates)
3 Sensei's divining top
So far in testing: W/ L
Critical mass: 3 / 2
They simply do not have enough counter magic for me to care. Also, the version I fought was not running hinders MD, so firemane owned him. Games I lost, Jitte came down early and I found no fetters.
Good Form: 1 / 4
With no enchantment removal MD on my deck, the 5 pre sideboarded games seemed pretty onesided. I did get enough burn in one game to do okay, but thats about it. Pre SB this match sucks.
Glare: 4 / 1
Faiths fetters showed up for vitu gazi and for glares, searing came down on turn 4 and 5 in two games respectively, and starting making him really overextend. Decent matchup.
G/B control: 3 / 2
Scarabs are annoying with no devouring lights MD. (they are SB) But I saved faith's fetters for sexy stuff like Kokusho, to make the opponent play another with less overall benefit. Two games gleancrawler came down and too many black dragons started happening.
W/R weenie: 5 / 0
Destroyed. Utterly.
Jushi Control: 2 / 3
Firemane angel went the distance in 2 games, and BOY O BOY DOSE THIS TAKE TOO LONG.
I think I would (heck, i am) play devouring light over pyroclasm, as it's good against aggro, but MUCH more effective against control.
If you were to dirch the kite, i say divining tops go... but i think they should go regardless, as you dont have nearly enough shuffle effects to make it good.
edit: upon further review, why aren't you using eiganjo castle and shinka? theres no reason to run basic land over a single copy really... and id also suggest using sunhome, fortress of the legion as well, as it seriously helps improve the quality of your (somewhat few, mind you) wind conditions
I don't feel that the "engine" of the deck is flawed... I'm more concerned with being able to adapt it correctly against all the decks of said gauntlet. I'm going to be searching for ways to try and improve the control matchup, as games tend to last overly long when i play against control... if i play against aggro, i simply win. lol.
another thing to briefly mention: kite/top engine will be entirely useless against aggro, whereas gift of estates can feasibly be played against an aggro player that's on the play (heck, even not since at least i use guildlands). the aggro decks ive been playing usually will tend to top out at 3 or 4 mana in the early stages of the game, as they are not trying to set up mana development for the late game. since the kite will come online on turn 3... that leaves some margin for error, and chances are, you will want to start toasting stuff when you hit turn three, not search out more mana.
Not entirely. Top can be used to fetch the Kite, or just fetch the needed sweeper. Not to say it is incredible without the Kite, but it is not gawdawful. Besides, Mono-B, Mono-W, and Mono-R used the 2 in tandem very sucessfully during block, and none of them really had any reliable shuffle effects.
Isn't that what this deck has an abundance of? Time? Most games I find they are dead around turn 25-30, with about 12 land out. That is plenty enough time to use the Kite. And if you run out of land or just don't want to thin anymore, failing to find just to shuffle is good enough.
That's not really an apt argument...You could say that for every engine.
I think you have it confused with another card. How can them playing land affect your engine in any way?
Well, this deck sould never even lose to any form of aggro, so it just seems that even if it is a tad slow vs aggro, you should have those games sealed up by turn 5, 6 at the latest anyways.
No one is trying to get the Kite up asap. It is a long term engine, for the grueling games of control vs. control, where the engine becomes just as good as cards in your hand. It should bever even really see play turn 3 vs aggro in the 1st place.
Anon - control RGW
Against control, if you wait it out they are going to draw into the answer anyway. At least with gift of estates, you can hold it out against control as well, play it early if you can, and you get 3 lands for two mana all at once, as opposed to 3 lands for 9 mana over the course of three turns... you tell me which you think is better. even if you can do it more than 3 times, youve sucked up so much time and energy to do it
I kill you with
it.
Thirsty for Chicken?
:vader: Yankees Rock:vader:
:trooper: :trooper: :trooper: :trooper: :trooper: :trooper:
The Story of Raffinity
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=100284#post100284
Get em ' While they're Hot!!
T2:
G/W Control
1.X:
Goblin Revenge
With 4x GoE and 4x Signet plus the bouncelands and the duals, you can get as low as 20 land without any color or mana issues, and theoretically you might get away with even lower land counts. That means more space for threats and answers, and that's an advantage we should exploit considering we have no draw or deck manipulation engines.
The one thing about GoE I see few people exploring is its hand replenishment capabilities. GoE gives you as many cards as Concentrate for half the mana. Sure, they're 'useless' land cards, but we just got a 'hand size matters' mechaninc in Saviors.
Kiyomaro has recently become popular, but the one card I'm urging you to reconsider is Thoughts of Ruin. The main problems with ToR are its symmetrical effect and its loss of effectiveness as your hand gets depleted. GoE takes care of both these issues, since it provides both a bigger effect and the means to recover faster than your opponent.
If you factor in the fact most of your answers tend to sit around your hand for a while, you're facing Ruin for 5-7 quite often. That's enough to hurt even the turbo-growth green allows these days, not to mention there are a lot of dangerous nonbasic land to watch out for right now. Even if they recover once, I've yet to see a green deck that comes back after having all its field blown up repeatedly.
If you have a threat or some signets down, it usually buys you the time you need to deal some serious damage or even win the game. If you don't, you basically have reset the game with a favorable hand. If the have threats in play... wait, isn't that what usually WON'T happen against R/W?
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
Ivory Masks and Needles are crutial to the SB, although that seems like a no-brainer... It's been my main tools at slowing down gifts and heartbeat, which have been some of my more "troubling" matchups. MUC has also presented a problem, but only in the fact that the first game usually goes on forever... I've got more answers to their threats than they have counters, but theyve got way more counters than my threats. You can see the problem can't you? lol.
I think this is more of a metagame deck. If you have a lot of aggro in your field, and a lot of creature decks, this is the deck for you. I've mentioned somewhere else that I have never lost a game against aggro yet... Once I was even mana screwed and I somehow pulled it out of the hat (not just a small mana screw... it was a bad one). Simply put, aggro can't beat this. lol
If combo/control is more heavy, this is where it starts to fail... Not that it can't win, but more that it can't win quickly enough. Time is a factor in tournaments after all.
Games against MUC take so long that a single red honden becomes quite a liability for them over time. It's not fancy but it works, plus it allows you to keep the pressure. I imagine Searing Meditation/Firemane Angelcan work a similar role, as their only possible answer is to boomerang the enchantment, or sideboard Cranial.
Another win condition worth trying is simply mana denial. With no good instant-speed draw beyond Jushi Apprentice, it's possible to blow up more lands than they can hope to recover by drawing. Boiling Seas is a must-have SB, probably even backed up with Boseiju.
Most combo decks in the format work by exploiting a powerful enchantment engine. To exploit it at its fullest, they not only require at least six land, but a SPECIFIC combination of land. In order to accomplish this, they must run lots of mana acceleration, which incidentially powers up GoE, which incidentially powers up ToR, which trades with land up to 7-to-1. They may hold back their combo until they reach critical mass and attempt a 1-turn kill, but they're only giving you the chance to solidify your board and blow up their resources anyway.
If you blow up their land once, they probably will recover. If you pull it off twice, chances are they will have spent so many resources staying on the game they won't be able to keep up. It ain't pretty, and it certainly ain't fast, but at least it brings games down to a conclusion.
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
I have been alternating between devouring and clasm for a while, and I have also been alternating between top / kite and GoE for a while too.
Why do I play clasm MD and DevLight SB?
- Because pyroclasm can 2 for 1, and does so very easily and at an efficient cost. Light get bigger threats, and is amazing against dragons.
This is a metagame choice as there are some blazing fast deck in my FNM scene.
Why Kite / Top?
Well, I have since switched to GoEs and Im currently using them, but the testing was done with that engine, so.... heck, post what you used eh?
Since when did them wasting a Needle on the Top rather than your Angel bad? I find most of the time a Needle for Angel/SP put's me at a huge disadvantage. If they want to Needle the engine, that's acceptable. If they still want to Needle the win, the engine kicks in and fetches as many copies of it in the shortest amount of time.
Who cares if it's mana intensive guys? Jesus, like I have already said, this deck has nothing better to do than pay a mere (4) a turn mid game to fetch all the right answers. It is usually almost always draw, land, go, vs control anyway. It would be better to be able to filter out all the dead draws then, as opposed to having to do it while facing down a big fat flying win condition.
I do agree that it takes up a few spaces, but it is not like each of them is useless on their own. In fact, even without Top, Kite proves to be superior to GoE, as it will end up granting you quite a bit more land's in the long run. You really should not be needed to fetch lands on turn two; this deck is hardly ever mana screwed.
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Boros Garrison
7 Plains
3 Mountain
//Spells (34)
3 Char
4 Shock
4 Howling Mine
4 Boros Signet
3 Presence of the Wise
4 Sudden Impact
3 Terashi's Grasp
2 Flames of the Bloodhand
3 Millstone
4 Wrath of God
4 Devouring Light
3 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Firemane Angel
4 Pyroclasm
3 Pithing Needle
3 Honden of Cleansing Fire
It's been pretty consistent at winning. MUC/UBC are a bad matchup, but what can you do?
It drops down an early Howling Mine, then draws into everything needed to win, and can even play Sudden Impact for upwards of 9 damage when played right. Presence of the Wise stalls and creatures aren't a threat either. LMK what you think!
I don't think you can really call that "reason"
Sorry I haven't really been posting anything lately guys, my school does trimesters, so I'm a little busy right now with EOT (End of Term) work.
My build hasn't really changed at all. I am thinking of replacing the two maindeck Final Judgments with Devouring LIghts, taking the Devouring Lights in the SB out, and replacing those with Pithing Needles. I'm guessing this would be a good move overall, but I don't really have the funds for the Needles.
I would suggest to everyone to try replacing Char with Yamabushi's Flame, this card is a real life savor.
These boards need Lucida Blackletter as a font option.