Well...I like it. I like it alot actually. There are only a few minor tweekie problems I see with the build of this deck. First off I like the idea of using sectral searchlight as a pipper but I think Gift of Estates will be more beneficial to the deck in the long run. Also when I cut the searchlights I added one of the 4 new open slots (3 of which are gifts) to devouring light to make it a 4 of. I love devouring light it is a more expensive swords that doesn't give your opponent life in exchange for there creature. They just get an empty feeling in the pit of there stomach as there big ole Kokusho get put in the removed from game pile at instant speed. I love the fact that you have included both char and lightning helix in your deck since I was planning on doing the same after having a difficulty cutting either. I agree Razia is better with the fires since she lets it kill 7 toughness creatures and stays alive to continue her assault. Yosei and the Hunted Dragon also get in this build. Also I dropped a mountain and added a plains to make the count 8 plains and 6 Mountains which I think will be better with the gifts added into the deck. Suppression field is deffinately a 4 of in the board but beyond that only meta time shall tell. Well here has been my 2 cents on the matter and I have posted a revised deck list based on my changes.
What would you want over it? In my build, it doubles as creature removal and as a way to finish off the opponent. It's a pretty solid card... not incredible, but definitely solid.
As for gift of estates... I'm not a big fan of it to be honest. It's way too conditional, and late game will be next to useless. In something like WWe perhaps it can be okay... but I don't see it doing well in this deck.
I was considering at one point running hunted lammasu, but I think i'd prefer to run another dragon instead... since the knights are easier to deal with than demons...
Anyways... but like my first question stated, what would you rather have than char really? It will take out a ton of creatures that will most definitely see play, and that's a really good thing IMO.
Gift of Estates seems like a must-have, especially if you're planning on running Wildfire. Maybe you should even run the Boros Signet? It's acceleration, technically, and it makes Gift better, especially after Wildfire. It seems better than Spectral Searchlight, certainly.
I'm not a fan of Razia, either. 8 mana is alot, and she doesn't justify it at all, IMO. Especially since you can't really do much w/ her right after a board sweeper, and this deck does seem very reliant on those.
Honestly, if u want to play razia someday u wanna run gift of states... and if u pretend to wildfire, more (ur opponent will restart and u wont, thats bad :()
I know english is not your first language, but this post is almost indecipherable. I don't know what can be done about this, but I don't really understand everything that you are saying.
Quote from Crazed Mike »
As for gift of estates... I'm not a big fan of it to be honest. It's way too conditional, and late game will be next to useless. In something like WWe perhaps it can be okay... but I don't see it doing well in this deck.
Gift of Estates is one of THE best cards in the deck. The trick to running Gift is using Boros Garrison, because you will have less lands in play than your opponent, but still have the same amount of mana production. With Gift, you have guaranteed your next couple of land drops, as well as being able to recover from a Wildfire far more easily than your opponent. Testing revealed this to me.
On the other hand, I might actually be trying out Char in the maindeck, simply because the more burn available to this deck, the better your matchup against GB becomes, in my experience. This is because burn is a lot harder for them to deal with than creatures, and it is an effective way of ending the game before Kokusho's lifegain becomes a threat. I might use this over Scroll of Origins, simply because you need to end the game sooner against BG, before Kokusho/Miren comes into play.
Razia at 8 mana is no worse than akroma, and akroma was run in MWC (granted, there was eternal dragon back then, but regardless)
the searchlight doesn't provide the direct early game acceleration, but late game it can come in quite handy. I don't think gifts is a must-have when running wildfire, since ideally there will be a large threat on the board to do the mopping up, and then the cheaper burn like char and helix can get rid of any defenders or swing in those last couple of points of damage
again, i still have to try out my build... for the most part, its been completely untested
edit: i hadn't thought of the interaction between it and the garrison... THAT might warrant it's inclusion for me
Honestly, try out Gift of Estates in conjuction with Boros Garrison and Boros Signet, because you never have to sacrifice a land drop, and it's great at thinning the deck and guaranteeing land drops. Also, Mike, I would go up to 23 lands, run a full compliment of Gifts and some Boros Signets, so that you never come out on the losing end when casting Wildfire.
Razia at 8 mana is no worse than akroma, and akroma was run in MWC (granted, there was eternal dragon back then, but regardless)
the searchlight doesn't provide the direct early game acceleration, but late game it can come in quite handy. I don't think gifts is a must-have when running wildfire, since ideally there will be a large threat on the board to do the mopping up, and then the cheaper burn like char and helix can get rid of any defenders or swing in those last couple of points of damage
again, i still have to try out my build... for the most part, its been completely untested
edit: i hadn't thought of the interaction between it and the garrison... THAT might warrant it's inclusion for me
Razia is a 4/3 for 8, Akroma was a 6/6 pro red, black, etc. Akroma was inf. better than Razia, that comparison is so far off, to be honest. Like I was saying, right after you sweep the board, you basically can't play Razia, because of her low toughness(no other creature to redirect any damage she takes to). Akroma would be fine in a deck like this..but Razia is sub-optimal.
Razia is a 4/3 for 8, Akroma was a 6/6 pro red, black, etc. Akroma was inf. better than Razia, that comparison is so far off, to be honest. Like I was saying, right after you sweep the board, you basically can't play Razia, because of her low toughness(no other creature to redirect any damage she takes to). Akroma would be fine in a deck like this..but Razia is sub-optimal.
Razia is actually a 6/3 for 8. Just nitpicking, because you obviously meant 6/3, but was thinking about Firemane. Regardless, you are right in that she does not belong, because she is not compatable with one of this deck's best spells: Wildfire.
...Doesn't Razia tap to make the damage go to someone else? You wouldn't Wildfire if Razia were the only creature in play, and once you do Wildfire, 3 damage will get redirected either to a big creature or one that's about to die anyway.
On Gift of Estates: See, it's crap after you use it and get the land lead, and dead draws lose games.
Char is okay. The 4 damage is important because it punks a lot of troublemakers.
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I meant, you can't cast Wildfire/***/Whatever and THEN play Razia, because she'll just die to practically every playable burn spell. In general, control decks want to control the board, and then play a big guy that will own the game relatively quickly. Razia just doesn't do this, IMO...she wants to have people on her team. 8 mana is just too much for anything with 3 toughness and a conditional ability.
All I have to say is test Gift of Estates with Boros Garrison, and you won't be dissapointed. Also, I have played multiple gifts in one game easily, probably because I am running 23 lands. Also, in regards to dead cards late, you are removing 3 lands every time you cast Gift and seeing as though lands are terrible topdecks later on in the game, you are actually improving your draws by running Gift, especially if you manage to Gift twice. I usually never have a problem casting a gifts, all it requires is a bit of patience.
i have to agree, gift of estates wasn't very useful in testing. its good for thinning the deck, but its just to situational for my liking. far to often its a dead draw late in the game. i also don't think Razia belongs in this deck. against a control deck she might be the only thing out making her ability useless, and she also dies horribly to alot of black spot removal, which will see alot of play. my finisher has to be more resilient than that, especially for 8 mana. heres my deck.
I meant, you can't cast Wildfire/***/Whatever and THEN play Razia, because she'll just die to practically every playable burn spell. In general, control decks want to control the board, and then play a big guy that will own the game relatively quickly. Razia just doesn't do this, IMO...she wants to have people on her team. 8 mana is just too much for anything with 3 toughness and a conditional ability.
a 6/3 haste doesn't end the game quickly? I mean... what else would you play in her place? Firemane angel is crap, since razia can come out before a wildfire and survive, while picking off the biggest dude in the meantime.
the thing is, my problem is that there isn't much better to actually play in the way of finishers... i mean, hunted dragon is pretty good, but im running him already (i think 4 would be overkill) and im also running yosei, but other than that... what is a better choice? blinking spirit? hardly a finisher as it doesn't have a big body nor does it have evasion. paladin en-vec? again, too small and no evasion really
firemane angel is technically a good idea, but she doesn't really come out after a wildfire either, nor does she survive it PERIOD... 6 mana for a 4/3 flying first strike isn't a bad idea, but with all that "black removal everywhere" shes just as vulnerable as razia
my point is, what is a BETTER alternative? razia is by no means perfect, and im not promoting that, but she fits the bill better than the other options that ive considered thus far. 6/3 haste is the main reason i like it, as with flying, it will often be 6 to the dome, which is nice and convenient with all the burn in the deck
my deck isn't BASED around wildfire... i play it when it is appropriate to do so. would i play wildfire when razia is alone on the field? of course not... id rather be swinging with her in combat, she might as well be a 9/6, and since she sticks back to defend, thats not a bad thing either. yes, black removal can pwn her, but it can pwn every creature in the format right now, so thats kind of moot. razia can go head to head with kokusho and live, and i also forgot to include eiganjo castle and shinka into my deck... which further help razia in the ways of combat and wildfire proofing (the castle does anyway).
like i said, shes not perfect, but what better option is there?
a 6/3 haste doesn't end the game quickly? I mean... what else would you play in her place? Firemane angel is crap, since razia can come out before a wildfire and survive, while picking off the biggest dude in the meantime.
the thing is, my problem is that there isn't much better to actually play in the way of finishers... i mean, hunted dragon is pretty good, but im running him already (i think 4 would be overkill) and im also running yosei, but other than that... what is a better choice? blinking spirit? hardly a finisher as it doesn't have a big body nor does it have evasion. paladin en-vec? again, too small and no evasion really
firemane angel is technically a good idea, but she doesn't really come out after a wildfire either, nor does she survive it PERIOD... 6 mana for a 4/3 flying first strike isn't a bad idea, but with all that "black removal everywhere" shes just as vulnerable as razia
my point is, what is a BETTER alternative? razia is by no means perfect, and im not promoting that, but she fits the bill better than the other options that ive considered thus far. 6/3 haste is the main reason i like it, as with flying, it will often be 6 to the dome, which is nice and convenient with all the burn in the deck
my deck isn't BASED around wildfire... i play it when it is appropriate to do so. would i play wildfire when razia is alone on the field? of course not... id rather be swinging with her in combat, she might as well be a 9/6, and since she sticks back to defend, thats not a bad thing either. yes, black removal can pwn her, but it can pwn every creature in the format right now, so thats really good. razia can go head to head with kokusho and live, and i also forgot to include eiganjo castle and shinka into my deck... which further help razia in the ways of combat and wildfire proofing (the castle does anyway).
like i said, shes not perfect, but what better option is there?
firemane angel is better because it does something in the graveyard and can be brought back, even after wildfire. again, in the current standard my creatures have to do more than be big and die easy. paladin and spirit are there because your right, there aren't alot of good big creatures for this deck. think about it, paladin survives wildfire and most removal, the spirit is just about unkillable. in the end they will do more damage overtime then the fat currently available.
as far as hunted dragon being good in the deck i found that not to be the case. he's terrible against ww or ww/r. if anthems out he's unplayable, if they have a flyer out he's not good, or they drop hikori after you play him. then theres u/b, b/g, MBC, ect, where he's more of a liability than a plus.
like i said, i still have to playtest the deck, which might not happen for a while as i am both working, getting ready to move back home in ottawa, and to boot, ive got to actually get the cards yeah, ill try and playtest on MWS, but i still have a lot of evaluation for now
what im trying to say, is that im playing off of theory right now
hunted dragon shouldn't be that bad against WWe really... hopefully, you'll be toasting their creatures with lightning helix and char (which i still don't understand some of the random anti-char comments being made, since it isn't THAT bad of a card) and the anthems can be taken care of via white removal... in my case, i don't run it maindeck, so that's problematic and MAY be dealt with later
but the thing is, those tiny little 2/2s won't be able to win the game... once youve established control, youve got to knock the opponent out before they get their act together again. a smart WWe player will hold back some of his guys when he realizes you're playing control, and will try and bait out your wraths/wildfires before he goes for his final strike. we also can't exclude the occurance of jitte, as the life gain it provides will SERIOUSLY mess up those paladins and spirits...
firemane angel MAY do something in the grave, but that 1 life per turn isn't particularly strong... and 10 mana to recur is hardly a quality deal... even if you get it into play... its going to be so far in before you can actually use that ability reliably, which is a tough problem for a deck that will probably be playing stuff every turn
the thing is, id rather swing in quickly for that 6, bring them down to 14, then swing again for 6 with something else (assuming my first critter was killed) and then theyre down to 8... with quads of spectral searchlight, char and helix... you should be able to take them down from there
+1 life a turn is definitely not something I'd like for a finisher unless I'm running Searing Meditation (which I am, but Mike is not). 10 mana to recur a creature that dies to Lightning Helix, Last Gasp, and Putrefy is not an efficient use of mana. I use Firemane Angel as a Meditation engine, and a quickening clock only sometimes.
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I have been using Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, which has been working very nicely for me. It seems like a weenie creature, but it makes life miserable for opposing WW decks, as well as protecting itself and Hunted Dragon against removal. It survives Pyroclasms, and Wildfires if you have mana to spare, which you should.
8 1/2 also helps to get GB into burn range, because I am now maindecking Blaze. For those of you who are having trouble with GB, believe me, try out Blaze and you won't be dissapointed.
+1 life a turn is definitely not something I'd like for a finisher unless I'm running Searing Meditation (which I am, but Mike is not). 10 mana to recur a creature that dies to Lightning Helix, Last Gasp, and Putrefy is not an efficient use of mana. I use Firemane Angel as a Meditation engine, and a quickening clock only sometimes.
your right, but there aren't many other choices for the deck. with the ton of removal thats going to be played combined with the low number of creature this deck plays means my creatures have to do something if and when they die, because they are going to die. 10 mana to bring it back is still better than 8 to play it and watch it die accomplishing nothing, or 5 mana to play it, watch it die, and be staring down the 3 creatures you just gave your opponent.
i've thought about blaze, but didn't think it would work with wildfire. are you running wildfire in your deck alfred? as long as the games go with this deck i could see it as pretty good burn.
the thing is, if you play that 8 mana creature when the opponent is tapped out, you'll get 6 damage in right away, wheras the firemane will not... as well, razia (as long as there are other creatures in play) will be immune to helix and char, both of which will be played a lot... against black, well, you just have to live with it since theyre going to be running x4 putrefy, possibly last gasp as well as possibly cruel edict... the edict is sorcery speed though, so that only leaves the gasp and putrefy, which happen to knock out firemane as well
i basically see razia as a better alternative for my deck... with meditation, i think that firemane would actually be quite good (and i hadn't thought about that actually)... but like erad said, im not running meditation and i dont intend to. so razia makes a much better option for me than firemane... even if in theory you can constantly recur firemane until the opponent runs out of removal.
Unfortunately, I'm in complete agreement that Firemane Angel is inadequate in all but the decks specifically built to use her.
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you have a low land count with no gift of estates and you are running wildfire, I would think that would pose a serious problem.
Anon - control RGW
Well...I like it. I like it alot actually. There are only a few minor tweekie problems I see with the build of this deck. First off I like the idea of using sectral searchlight as a pipper but I think Gift of Estates will be more beneficial to the deck in the long run. Also when I cut the searchlights I added one of the 4 new open slots (3 of which are gifts) to devouring light to make it a 4 of. I love devouring light it is a more expensive swords that doesn't give your opponent life in exchange for there creature. They just get an empty feeling in the pit of there stomach as there big ole Kokusho get put in the removed from game pile at instant speed. I love the fact that you have included both char and lightning helix in your deck since I was planning on doing the same after having a difficulty cutting either. I agree Razia is better with the fires since she lets it kill 7 toughness creatures and stays alive to continue her assault. Yosei and the Hunted Dragon also get in this build. Also I dropped a mountain and added a plains to make the count 8 plains and 6 Mountains which I think will be better with the gifts added into the deck. Suppression field is deffinately a 4 of in the board but beyond that only meta time shall tell. Well here has been my 2 cents on the matter and I have posted a revised deck list based on my changes.
2x Yosei, the Morning Star
3x Hunted Dragon
4x Char
4x Lightning Helix
4x Wrath of God
3x Gift of Estates
3x Pyroclasm
3x Ghostly Prison
4x Devouring Light
3x Wildfire
3x Shining Shoal
4x Battlefield Forge
6x Mountain
8x Plains
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Anon - control RGW
As for gift of estates... I'm not a big fan of it to be honest. It's way too conditional, and late game will be next to useless. In something like WWe perhaps it can be okay... but I don't see it doing well in this deck.
I was considering at one point running hunted lammasu, but I think i'd prefer to run another dragon instead... since the knights are easier to deal with than demons...
Anyways... but like my first question stated, what would you rather have than char really? It will take out a ton of creatures that will most definitely see play, and that's a really good thing IMO.
I'm not a fan of Razia, either. 8 mana is alot, and she doesn't justify it at all, IMO. Especially since you can't really do much w/ her right after a board sweeper, and this deck does seem very reliant on those.
I know english is not your first language, but this post is almost indecipherable. I don't know what can be done about this, but I don't really understand everything that you are saying.
Gift of Estates is one of THE best cards in the deck. The trick to running Gift is using Boros Garrison, because you will have less lands in play than your opponent, but still have the same amount of mana production. With Gift, you have guaranteed your next couple of land drops, as well as being able to recover from a Wildfire far more easily than your opponent. Testing revealed this to me.
On the other hand, I might actually be trying out Char in the maindeck, simply because the more burn available to this deck, the better your matchup against GB becomes, in my experience. This is because burn is a lot harder for them to deal with than creatures, and it is an effective way of ending the game before Kokusho's lifegain becomes a threat. I might use this over Scroll of Origins, simply because you need to end the game sooner against BG, before Kokusho/Miren comes into play.
the searchlight doesn't provide the direct early game acceleration, but late game it can come in quite handy. I don't think gifts is a must-have when running wildfire, since ideally there will be a large threat on the board to do the mopping up, and then the cheaper burn like char and helix can get rid of any defenders or swing in those last couple of points of damage
again, i still have to try out my build... for the most part, its been completely untested
edit: i hadn't thought of the interaction between it and the garrison... THAT might warrant it's inclusion for me
Razia is a 4/3 for 8, Akroma was a 6/6 pro red, black, etc. Akroma was inf. better than Razia, that comparison is so far off, to be honest. Like I was saying, right after you sweep the board, you basically can't play Razia, because of her low toughness(no other creature to redirect any damage she takes to). Akroma would be fine in a deck like this..but Razia is sub-optimal.
Razia is actually a 6/3 for 8. Just nitpicking, because you obviously meant 6/3, but was thinking about Firemane. Regardless, you are right in that she does not belong, because she is not compatable with one of this deck's best spells: Wildfire.
On Gift of Estates: See, it's crap after you use it and get the land lead, and dead draws lose games.
Char is okay. The 4 damage is important because it punks a lot of troublemakers.
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4x devouring light
4x wrath of god
4x wildfire
4x ghostly prison
4x lightning helix
3x char
3x paladin en-vec
3x firemane angel
2x blinking spirit
2x yosei, the morning star
Lands
9 plain
6 mountain
4 battlefield forge
4 soul foundry
4x Terashi's Grasp
3x ivory mask
3x defense grid
3x shining shoal
2x pure intentions
playing the deck i just found i needed creatures that could dodge some of the removal thats going to be played.
And why is that? A little reasoning behind this post would be good for the "less enlightened". - MiKe
a 6/3 haste doesn't end the game quickly? I mean... what else would you play in her place? Firemane angel is crap, since razia can come out before a wildfire and survive, while picking off the biggest dude in the meantime.
the thing is, my problem is that there isn't much better to actually play in the way of finishers... i mean, hunted dragon is pretty good, but im running him already (i think 4 would be overkill) and im also running yosei, but other than that... what is a better choice? blinking spirit? hardly a finisher as it doesn't have a big body nor does it have evasion. paladin en-vec? again, too small and no evasion really
firemane angel is technically a good idea, but she doesn't really come out after a wildfire either, nor does she survive it PERIOD... 6 mana for a 4/3 flying first strike isn't a bad idea, but with all that "black removal everywhere" shes just as vulnerable as razia
my point is, what is a BETTER alternative? razia is by no means perfect, and im not promoting that, but she fits the bill better than the other options that ive considered thus far. 6/3 haste is the main reason i like it, as with flying, it will often be 6 to the dome, which is nice and convenient with all the burn in the deck
my deck isn't BASED around wildfire... i play it when it is appropriate to do so. would i play wildfire when razia is alone on the field? of course not... id rather be swinging with her in combat, she might as well be a 9/6, and since she sticks back to defend, thats not a bad thing either. yes, black removal can pwn her, but it can pwn every creature in the format right now, so thats kind of moot. razia can go head to head with kokusho and live, and i also forgot to include eiganjo castle and shinka into my deck... which further help razia in the ways of combat and wildfire proofing (the castle does anyway).
like i said, shes not perfect, but what better option is there?
firemane angel is better because it does something in the graveyard and can be brought back, even after wildfire. again, in the current standard my creatures have to do more than be big and die easy. paladin and spirit are there because your right, there aren't alot of good big creatures for this deck. think about it, paladin survives wildfire and most removal, the spirit is just about unkillable. in the end they will do more damage overtime then the fat currently available.
as far as hunted dragon being good in the deck i found that not to be the case. he's terrible against ww or ww/r. if anthems out he's unplayable, if they have a flyer out he's not good, or they drop hikori after you play him. then theres u/b, b/g, MBC, ect, where he's more of a liability than a plus.
what im trying to say, is that im playing off of theory right now
hunted dragon shouldn't be that bad against WWe really... hopefully, you'll be toasting their creatures with lightning helix and char (which i still don't understand some of the random anti-char comments being made, since it isn't THAT bad of a card) and the anthems can be taken care of via white removal... in my case, i don't run it maindeck, so that's problematic and MAY be dealt with later
but the thing is, those tiny little 2/2s won't be able to win the game... once youve established control, youve got to knock the opponent out before they get their act together again. a smart WWe player will hold back some of his guys when he realizes you're playing control, and will try and bait out your wraths/wildfires before he goes for his final strike. we also can't exclude the occurance of jitte, as the life gain it provides will SERIOUSLY mess up those paladins and spirits...
firemane angel MAY do something in the grave, but that 1 life per turn isn't particularly strong... and 10 mana to recur is hardly a quality deal... even if you get it into play... its going to be so far in before you can actually use that ability reliably, which is a tough problem for a deck that will probably be playing stuff every turn
the thing is, id rather swing in quickly for that 6, bring them down to 14, then swing again for 6 with something else (assuming my first critter was killed) and then theyre down to 8... with quads of spectral searchlight, char and helix... you should be able to take them down from there
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8 1/2 also helps to get GB into burn range, because I am now maindecking Blaze. For those of you who are having trouble with GB, believe me, try out Blaze and you won't be dissapointed.
your right, but there aren't many other choices for the deck. with the ton of removal thats going to be played combined with the low number of creature this deck plays means my creatures have to do something if and when they die, because they are going to die. 10 mana to bring it back is still better than 8 to play it and watch it die accomplishing nothing, or 5 mana to play it, watch it die, and be staring down the 3 creatures you just gave your opponent.
i've thought about blaze, but didn't think it would work with wildfire. are you running wildfire in your deck alfred? as long as the games go with this deck i could see it as pretty good burn.
i basically see razia as a better alternative for my deck... with meditation, i think that firemane would actually be quite good (and i hadn't thought about that actually)... but like erad said, im not running meditation and i dont intend to. so razia makes a much better option for me than firemane... even if in theory you can constantly recur firemane until the opponent runs out of removal.
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