I've been thinking of cutting the Ice Bridge and replacing it with an extra Reach
Anyway, the total of possible basics than can be fetched is still 10-12, and I have never run out of basic lands to get with Elder or Reach. On average I will draw 3 fetchers in a game, and playing each one decreases the chance of drawing a basic land, so that's really not a problem.
EDIT: (See Cyan's very good point about Farseek below) Farseek is very likely better than Wood Elves because it lowers your curve and increases your chance of dropping either Slum or Hierarch on turn 3. Heck, if you're gonna run creatures with bad synergy to fix your mana you might as well run Birds of Paradise. At least they give you a chance at turn two BTS and turn 3 Slum/Hierarch.
Because, after a Wildfire they have the resources to Annex and **** me over. Even assuming we waited as long as turn 6 for Wildfire to hit play, I get to keep all of maybe 3-4 lands? Even Assuming I had all duals the best I can hope for is GGG,WW,RR,B (Temple Garden, Overgrown Tomb, Sacred Foundry, Stomping Ground) All they need to do is drop a single Annex and I go into topdecking mode.
So, when you were sacrificing to Wildfire, you didn't anticipate that he had Annex? That doesn't make Wildfire better, that just means that you made a mistake.
Well, I do hear that they have a knack for taking YOUR critters. *shrug*
You should have Naturalize to minimalize this anyway...so why does that matter?
I really could care less about Keiga. More often than not, a well-placed Faith's Fetters is all I've ever needed against it when playing vs ED.
If that's the case, then you should be naming Leash/Confiscate with Extraction. This still doesn't explain how naming Wildfire is the right decision...because it's not. Their deck is very light on threats, even if you count Dream Leash. I'm not going to count Confiscate, because I don't see decks running it anymore, and just because Nan does isn't good enough for me. I see plenty of ED on MTGO, and I don't see Confiscate in them.
Quote from IBTG »
see Cyan, its funny 3 people who have tested the matchup are considered compotent players disagree with you. I can understand standing ones ground, but as you have even said yourself you cant be right all the time.
No one can be right all of the time, however, I am right this time. The only one of the three of you that is likely to have played with/against ED more than me is Nan, and from what I understand, he runs an old/no longer optimal version of the deck anyway.
Quote from IBTG »
you are welcome to 'feel' whatever you would like, but the people who have actually tested the matchup, are telling you that your presumptions are incorrect. if you didnt care, then you wouldnt have posted. thats a very weak argument coming from the likes of you.
we have tested the matchup and are continuing to do so. Have you?
Like I said, I'm confident that I have played many, many more games with and against ED than you or Will has. And real games vs. real decks, where people are investing alot of time and money to be playing, not just random Apprentice games. As for whether or not I've tested this matchup? Specifically vs. whatever you're playing? Obviously not. But have I played against base green decks that run KotNT and SB Cranial Extraction? Obviously I have. And I know, from personal experience, that it was much more crippling to me(as the ED player) when they removed my win conditions, as opposed to my Wildfires.
Quote from IBTG »
and apparently you missed the portion where I stated I was going to be CaDing up Kodama... which outside of the copy enchantment scenario, goes the distance. I'll get to your pyroclasm theory in a moment.
cyan, I guess my point is, I dont care if they have a ton of mana. cast all the confiscates,annex,mimeofacture,dream leash you want Im still beating your face in with KotNT. the only spell I dont want to see, is the same one you were so adimant about telling Ixi was an awful spell to play. Both Nan and Ixi have said that copy enchantment has been very useful, though i dont really expect you to actually believe anyones concrete playtesting results.
Goes the distance..unless they just block him with one of their guys(which you didn't Extract for)..or one of your guys that they have dream leashed, or confiscated if you're convinced that they'll run that card. Also, you're the one backing Copy Enchantment, and that makes your own 'ride KotNT to the win' scenario significantly less reliable. Besides, most of your spells are not threatening to ED at all, and they'll have plenty of countermagic post board, what makes you think you'll ever resolve a KotNT anyway, especially if you telegraph it coming by finding it w/ CaD?
As for relevant testing results, it's 2 people, that I know nothing about as far as playskill competency, vs. the entire MTGO community(literally NOONE runs Copy Enchantment), many of which are players that I know have played professionally to some degree, and to a large degree in some instances. I fail to see who WOULD listen to 2 random people in that situation? I wouldn't even expect people to listen to ME if it was me in that case.
Quote from IBTG »
I have CaD and Im a good player. I told you already Im going to be getting threats I know they cant rob. This isnt an aggro matchup so heirarch can def come out in favor of graveshell scarab, which you shouldnt be allowing to get robbed. in in the instance of heirarch I would most def sac him before they leash resolved anyway, if he was going to be an obstacle for kodama.
:rolleyes:. If the debate is going to become 'IBTG always has the right cards and always makes the right play and always is up in every situation', then, we're done debating. I deal with reality, not make believe situations. Besides, if you're such a good player, prove it. Give us a link to a Regionals that you T8ed. Or even a PTQ that you T8ed. Or your DCI #. Back up your own claims. The only person on these forums that constantly talks about what a great player they are is you...so, go ahead and prove it. Or stop acting like you're a better player than everyone else. Because you're not. Or hell, I'll play ED vs. your deck, and we'll see who does better. Of course, I've seen lots of people challenge you before, and you never respond, so I doubt this time will be any different.
Quote from IBTG »
as far as the two pyroclasm theory; from our very own ED thread on this forum
Quote from IBTG »
in my testing thus far, clasm is less effective now in this format. it will hit random mana producers, sure but for the most part aggro men got a toughness boost. men like watchwolf, heriarch, shaman, rumbling slum are all seeing frequent spots on the board, in which case they just shake of the clasm and keep running after you.
Quote from Cyan »
Quote from Cyan »
I'm honestly not even sure that this deck is viable post GP, mostly because the face of aggro will be so different. You will be seeing hordes of /3 creatures now, even ones that cost 1 mana(Kird Ape), instead of hordes of /2 creatures.
Quote from Piledriver »
I haven't run Pyro main since day one ;). I run 3x Remands in the 3 slots, because I find that most of the time they do a better job at hosing aggros tempo than Pyro does, and gets a card to boot.
First of all, you forgot this one:
Quote from Cyan »
Not running Pyroclasm MD in this deck is flatly ridiculous; you basically scoop to every Aggro matchup that you come across w/o it. If your opponent gets a single Jitte into play, you essentially can no longer cast Wildfire, because you're just making their Jitte even better.
If Piledriver doesn't run Pyroclasm MD, that's his problem. I imagine he doesn't have alot of success with this deck in that circumstance either.
And I DON'T think that ED is a viable deck post-GP, but, if it is played, it still HAS to run Pyroclasm, even if the card does become less effective. It has to do so because there are no other good options for it to run...so I fail to see how any of this is relevant. If people still play ED(which they shouldn't once GP is legal), they will still need to play Pyroclasm.
Quote from IBTG »
In terms of sacred ground, I find the spell to be extremely narrow. its only real use is in this matchup, even rg land doesnt have enough destruction to deal with reach/ste/ and our medium casting threats. ED has a straight up piss poor matchup with RGW aggro, which as of right now is the most common deck I can arbitrarily sit down against an unknown opponent and play against. because of that I expect to see the numbers dwindle, I mean even Cyan the maginificent doubts its viability...
How can you possibly argue that Wildfire is SO relevant that it's what you should name w/ Extraction, and then turn around and say that Sacred Ground, which hoses Wildfire 100%, and also hoses all LD based decks(UR LD is a factor, just because it's played alot, and RG LD will be a decent deck to replace ED)..yet it's too narrow? Considering that RG LD runs all of the relevant threats that this apparently updated version of Fungus Fires runs, and will also run LD and will cast it's spells more quickly, how can you say it's not a factor?
Quote from ButteBlues18 »
Because, IMO, there is no better land search that can actually grab your dual lands.
Considering that you don't play Jitte(and thusly don't really benefit from Wood Elves being a guy), and you're probably not putting the land into play untapped all that often(your mana curve is pretty high), Farseek seems significantly better than Wood Elves, to me.
So, when you were sacrificing to Wildfire, you didn't anticipate that he had Annex? That doesn't make Wildfire better, that just means that you made a mistake.
Anticipating they have an Annex isn't going to magically cure the problem. Even if one does as much as they can to prepare for an Annex, after a well-timed Wildfire, it WILL **** you over if the ED player is good. There's no arguing that.
You should have Naturalize to minimalize this anyway...so why does that matter?
We've 3 Naturalize versus HOW many of their enchantments again?
If that's the case, then you should be naming Leash/Confiscate with Extraction.
This still doesn't explain how naming Wildfire is the right decision...because it's not.
Have you tested THIS deck against Emminent Domain? If not, I kindly ask you to do so and then come back and refute this point again.
Their deck is very light on threats, even if you count Dream Leash.
It is light on threats. However, you'll have a hell of a time actually removing their threats when you don't have the necessary manabase to do so because they've ripped it apart with Wildfire.
I'm not going to count Confiscate, because I don't see decks running it anymore, and just because Nan does isn't good enough for me. I see plenty of ED on MTGO, and I don't see Confiscate in them.
Whether or not is better, I won't debate because I don't play ED and am less versed in playing with it. However, I will say the other version I played against (ixidorsdream's list) runs more threats and no Confiscates and I find my match to be somewhat easier there.
Quote from Cyan »
Considering that you don't play Jitte(and thusly don't really benefit from Wood Elves being a guy), and you're probably not putting the land into play untapped all that often(your mana curve is pretty high), Farseek seems significantly better than Wood Elves, to me.
That is entirely possible. I'll have to look into it.
Anticipating they have an Annex isn't going to magically cure the problem. Even if one does as much as they can to prepare for an Annex, after a well-timed Wildfire, it WILL **** you over if the ED player is good. There's no arguing that.
It is very hard to have a 'well timed Wildfire' vs. base green decks..the card is almost useless in those matchups. They run so much mana, and so many ways to accelerate it, that Wildfire is rarely ever going to leave you with an advantage. You end up just using it for the 4 damage, and praying they don't have a guy with Jitte at the time.
We've 3 Naturalize versus HOW many of their enchantments again?
Not that many, in good decks. You rarely want to Naturalize an Annex. Mostly, you just have to let those go, as Annex isn't that effective in this matchup anyway..you have a ton of ways of finding land, all of which cost less than 4 mana...them spending 2UU on their turn to steal one is rarely effective.
Well, I agree that Kokusho is a major issue, which is why he needs to be named first with Extraction usually..but anyway.
Have you tested THIS deck against Emminent Domain? If not, I kindly ask you to do so and then come back and refute this point again.
No. But I've played a ridiculous amount of games vs. Glare, and this deck is pretty close to a slow Glare deck that also runs some :symr:.
It is light on threats. However, you'll have a hell of a time actually removing their threats when you don't have the necessary manabase to do so because they've ripped it apart with Wildfire.
You run a ton of acceleration and your non-threat cards are generally low CMC. Unless they're casting 2x Wildfire in one turn(you should have won before this), they shouldn't be able to do anything anyway.
[QUOTE]
Whether or not is better, I won't debate because I don't play ED and am less versed in playing with it. However, I will say the other version I played against (ixidorsdream's list) runs more threats and no Confiscates and I find my match to be somewhat easier there.
Ixidors version is awful. Searchlight is awful, Copy Enchantment really isn't that good. Apparently he doesn't run Pyroclasm, or something. Or Tidings.
You have my AIM, if you want to test vs. the version I run sometime, just let me know.
we have testing data, that has been and is continued to be posted. cyan, does not. He must be right.
3 people have said, wildfire is the correct spell to name in this matchup. Cyan is the only one making claims otherwise. He must be right.
we have stuck by the same argument, over and over Cyan keeps tippy-toeing around questions and making alterations to his claims as to keep in congruent to each argument we set forth He must be right.
3 seperate sources stand by the same gameplan, but then no one can be right all the time cyan, is one person, and as such, isnt right all the time, but he ensures us all he is right this time, sans any credible playtesting evidence. He must be right.
whats the point.... we test, we prove it, we share the results and he just wants to sit here and pick them apart, and not provide any of his own. I for one wont be wasting any more time arguing with someone who just wants to hear themselves talk. if you have results cyan, lets see 'em son. if you aint got any, Im sure claims based on pure speculation and porous logic are much more accepted in the casual and DFC forum. if you would like, I can provide you a link.:rofl:
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Quote from Miscalcul8edRisk »
In IBTG we trust
Quote from Veserius »
Hats off to [BB18 & IBTG], you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
You have my AIM, if you want to test vs. the version I run sometime, just let me know.
Gladly, I'm taking you up on that offer.
Fake edit - We've got Game 1 out of the way so far. He had to run and do some chores around the house, but as soon as he gets back, we'll play some more, and I'll edit results in here.
Game 1: Butte
He powers out a fast Icy Manipulator and Dream Leash, while I accelerate a bit with a 3rd turn Reach into two Plains. Not long after, a Faith's Fetterds joins the fray to keep his Icy down. The next turn sees me playing an Overgrown Tomb untapped to drop a Kodama. He manages to get a Kokusho, to which I counter by playing my own Yosei. He ends up swinging and then Mirening the Kokusho away, and I tap him down for a turn. He's at 29 and I stabilize to 18 with a Hierarch the turn after Koko dies. The Kodama and Hierarch manage to lay the beats and a Char comes down for the final points of damage. This game, imo, isn't all the conclusive as he seemed to suffer some severe mana flood.
[QUOTE] we have testing data, that has been and is continued to be posted. cyan, does not. He must be right.
I guess hundreds of REL-2 games on MTGO don't count as testing now. How lucky for you.
3 people have said, wildfire is the correct spell to name in this matchup. Cyan is the only one making claims otherwise. He must be right.
Again, I guess the fact that I've never seen someone name Wildfire and win because of it, in countless games played as and against this deck, don't count in your eyes. How convenient.
we have stuck by the same argument, over and over Cyan keeps tippy-toeing around questions and making alterations to his claims as to keep in congruent to each argument we set forth He must be right.
Name one thing that I've 'tip-toed' around..I have gone out of my way to address every point that has been brought up. Unlike what you're doing now.
3 seperate sources stand by the same gameplan, but then no one can be right all the time cyan, is one person, and as such, isnt right all the time, but he ensures us all he is right this time, sans any credible playtesting evidence. He must be right.
3 seperate sources that are part of the same group that continually back each other up. Y'all might as well be one source for what that matters. At least Nan has experience with the deck, and Will can admit that he doesn't. As usual, you've lost the argument now, and you're just resorting to trying to discredit me..but it's not working.
whats the point.... we test, we prove it, we share the results and he just wants to sit here and pick them apart, and not provide any of his own. I for one wont be wasting any more time arguing with someone who just wants to hear themselves talk. if you have results cyan, lets see 'em son. if you aint got any, Im sure claims based on pure speculation and porous logic are much more accepted in the casual and DFC forum. if you would like, I can provide you a link.:rofl:
If anyone needs to visit the DFC forum, it's you, along with this deck. You haven't even shown how it's viable, except 'because you said so'. But that doesn't mean anything. Go on, prove that the deck is good. Provide some real testing vs. relevant decks.
If anyone needs to visit the DFC forum, it's you, along with this deck. You haven't even shown how it's viable, except 'because you said so'. But that doesn't mean anything. Go on, prove that the deck is good. Provide some real testing vs. relevant decks.
Ultra-brief matchup analysis:
-vs R/W-aggro: It just wins. Mass removal, lifegain and fat spell doom for the opponent. Preliminary testing supports this claim.
-vs Ghazi-Glare: Matchup is favorable. ***, Wildfire (is your friend), Fetters and especially BTS kinda wrecks their day. Preliminary testing supports this claim.
-vs Eminent Domain: Tough matchup, but post-board things look good with Sacred Ground, Naturalize, Needle and Cranials. Preliminary testing supports this claim.
-vs CMU: 50/50-ish. Early Jittes can spell doom in this matchup, but post-board things look brighter yet again. Wildfire is your friend yet again. Preliminary testing supports this claim.
I haven't tested enough against URza and Ub-control yet. Also bear in mind that tests are random matches on MWS.
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In regards to this page's postings by IBeatTomGuevin-
He's completely right on most all accounts. Cyan tends to come into an argument, especially those including test results for proof, and discredit the tester and his argument. He doesn't do it with test results of his own, but with "because I say so"'s. It's because of that I gave in and now I have my first User on the Ignore List.
As for Pyroclasm, my ED hasn't run it in a long while, but even at a 4 of, drawing 2 without ever having used 1 was rare, and not a sound strategy idea. I really just wanted a Wildfire.
Nan and I both tested CE, and it's a good card. I tested Mimeofacture, and it's a good card. Cyans response is "not a Japanese exact decklist, no good".
As an ED player, keeping this off its base seems easy enough. I'd try to Fire Kodama and Hierarch, but CopyEnching one is just as fun.
Will (bb18)- if you really wanna test out against a real ED player with an updated REAL decklist, talk to me. I am thinking of running 1 Confiscate MD and taking a Leash because Cranial does zap this, and with Izzy Sig now, mana is much smoother to get to another UU card, just costing 1 more than Leash. A 1 of Confiscate allows me to possibly nab that Yosei to save my life vs your Kodama since you Cranial'd my Wildfires (this deck would before the dragons I'm assuming since you've gott a shotty manabase).
In other words, well put Will and Ibtg. Straight for the ED players mouth.
Or as Cyan puts it, the "ED King"
Edit- Will, I'd agree with Farseek in your mana base however. Even idiots can be right if they guess long enough Aggro shouldn't worry you enough to need a chump body like Wood Elves.
He's completely right on most all accounts. Cyan tends to come into an argument, especially those including test results for proof, and discredit the tester and his argument. He doesn't do it with test results of his own, but with "because I say so"'s. It's because of that I gave in and now I have my first User on the Ignore List.
No one cares that you put me on your ignore list, so stop mentioning it. If anything, it just shows an acquiescense on your part..you knew you'd lost the argument, so, you just refuse to listen to anything I have to say. Aside from that, as I've said countless times now, I have a TON of testing results, which are significantly more relevant than anything of yours, because they're against better players in a more serious venue. Of course, it keeps magically getting ignored that I've said this, but, I'll just keep saying it..it'll stick eventually.
As for Pyroclasm, my ED hasn't run it in a long while, but even at a 4 of, drawing 2 without ever having used 1 was rare, and not a sound strategy idea. I really just wanted a Wildfire.
Your ED is also bad, so, why is that a good reason to not run Pyroclasm? You also don't run Tidings, you still run Searchlight, and you probably still run Aquaduct. All wrong choices. Anyone that has tested ED vs. any good players with good decks would have realized these things.
Nan and I both tested CE, and it's a good card. I tested Mimeofacture, and it's a good card. Cyans response is "not a Japanese exact decklist, no good".
Please point out where I said that Extraction was a bad card? That has nothing whatsoever to do with this. Once again, you are just showing how much you absolutely do not know what you are talking about. And I've never said that it has to be the exact Japanese decklist, I said that that decklist is significantly better than yours, which it is. I also explained, in detail, WHY it is better.
Will (bb18)- if you really wanna test out against a real ED player with an updated REAL decklist, talk to me. I am thinking of running 1 Confiscate MD and taking a Leash because Cranial does zap this, and with Izzy Sig now, mana is much smoother to get to another UU card, just costing 1 more than Leash. A 1 of Confiscate allows me to possibly nab that Yosei to save my life vs your Kodama since you Cranial'd my Wildfires (this deck would before the dragons I'm assuming since you've gott a shotty manabase).
We only had time for 4 games today, because I had an MTGO Premier Event to play in, but, I won 3-1 in those 4 games. Feel free to make more random totally baseless 'real player' claims. Besides, how can you argue for running 1 copy of Confiscate when you spent like 5 posts trying to argue that running 1 of anything is pointless(see Honden of Seeing Winds).
In other words, well put Will and Ibtg. Straight for the ED players mouth.
Or as Cyan puts it, the "ED King"
No, that's the 'self-proclaimed ED King'. Which means that you think you know alot about the deck, but, in reality you don't know much at all. Your decklist is awful anymore, anyone that is remotely good at deckbuilding or playing can figure that out. The metagame has long since shifted past it being even remotely good.
Edit- Will, I'd agree with Farseek in your mana base however. Even idiots can be right if they guess long enough Aggro shouldn't worry you enough to need a chump body like Wood Elves.
Yeah, it's either that I'm an idiot, or, I'm right about all of this and no one wants to admit it. Oh well, time will tell. But, I know I'm right. And I'll prove it. I'll play my version of ED vs. a gauntlet of decks(played by you). Then, you can play your version of ED vs. the same exact decks, played by me. We'll see whom does better. If you don't accept this, then, stop bothering me. It's time to put up or shut up(obviously someone will have to relay this message to him, not that he'll ever do it anyway).
I already told Butteblues a few days ago, after he asked me, that it would be a wise idea to move the new version of Fungus Fires to a new thread. It hasn't been done yet. When I think of Fungus Fires, I commonly think of it as the Sunforger deck, which this is not.
I think that if it had its own seperate thread, it would cause a lot less arguing. No, it won't be stickied until after Guildpact becomes legal so you guys will have to live with it down below the stickied threads for a while.
This thread right now is getting out of hand with its arguments. There are several posts on this thread that were recently made that are borderline flame warnings. Cyan, Ibeattomguevin and Ixidorsdreams, you need to end your feud. There is a difference between talking strategy and refuting each others opinions just to be right to try and prove the other person knows nothing. Stop the bickering please as its getting heated and if it goes much farther several warnings will most likely be handed out.
I don't mind deck discussion, I promote it, but please do it in a civil manner.
Edited to be put in spoilers. Rant warning (accidental)
Wow, I actually wanted to see how childish his response would be, and I was dead on.
I was in my conversation (as was IBTG) referring to Copy Enchantment (CE). *bows head in disgust* try to keep up Cyan, will you?
I'm not going to defend my Emminent Domain build. Nan respects it, Will respects it, people here didn't mind my testing, nor at Manatap. People know when they see a respectful contributor and can make the distinction between that and an overly confident elitist. ELiTiST.
And to be self proclaimed, I have to proclaim. I never called myself the ED king nor do I now. If I was, you'd have seen me at Japan.
Saying you'll be in a Premier event does nothing for you. You going 3-1 doesn't prove anything. Thanks for that.
I run Izzet Signet over Fellwar Stone and Spectral Searchlight. Just because I didn't like Boros Signet as a better alternate than Searchlight you've humped that argument into the 3rd layer of the Earth's core. I also don't run Aqueducts anymore, but I haven't posted an updated list so that only makes your assumptions even worse. Next thing ill be running Cerulean Sphinx as a win condition according to you.
You claim all the time you do so much testing, and in a worthy venue. MTGO? With their horrible shuffling issues or where you have to buy cards, like the Shock and Dual lands? Yeah real even playing field there. Or is your worthy venue your testing group? How worthy are results we never see? Everytime I see a post by you it's to diss the ideas of other members or their PROVEN testing.
If you're gonna talk about testing, show it. Why haven't you seen mine? (Lately, still making more appearances than yours) Because the current meta is literally balls up in the air, so trying to test against 50 different decks, none of which have been established as even on the Tiers, is pointless.
And you figure when multiple prominent members say you're wrong, you are. Are you the pope? To be infallable is quite the talent!
Just cuz I ignore most all ur posts, I can see when ur quoted. Ill respond without reading your childish gibberish of a response from now on, it seems much simpler for you.
Who needs wants to debate with someone who thinks they're never wrong?
Edit- That was in response to Cyan, and posted seconds after Lesurgo's post. Didn't see it there before I posted, so feel free to delete this post if you're deleting the rant ones by all 3 of us. If not, this came less than a minute later, so sry.
I already told Butteblues a few days ago, after he asked me, that it would be a wise idea to move the new version of Fungus Fires to a new thread. It hasn't been done yet. When I think of Fungus Fires, I commonly think of it as the Sunforger deck, which this is not.
I think that if it had its own seperate thread, it would cause a lot less arguing. No, it won't be stickied until after Guildpact becomes legal so you guys will have to live with it down below the stickied threads for a while.
This thread right now is getting out of hand with its arguments. There are several posts on this thread that were recently made that are borderline flame warnings. Cyan, Ibeattomguevin and Ixidorsdreams, you need to end your feud. There is a difference between talking strategy and refuting each others opinions just to be right to try and prove the other person knows nothing. Stop the bickering please as its getting heated and if it goes much farther several warnings will most likely be handed out.
I do agree that discussion of the new deck should be moved to a different thread, even though the Sunforger argument has been over for a few pages now. The new deck doesn't function like a sans-Sunforger version of Fungus Fires anyway.
The last pages of arguments, sadly, are more part of said feud than any real attempt at discussing what to name with Cranial against ED. The ED-thread seems bogged down by the same problem...
@Cyan: Are you even interested in playing IBTG and BB18's build? It seems you are not, so why even bother arguing your case? When you three start "debating" it just turns into mudslinging anyway...
I'll continue testing today, and will try to provide a more detailed matchup analysis with testing results as the day progresses. I suggest those of us that actually want to play the deck do the same.
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its funny Cyan just sweeps through all of these threads like a friggin plague. He comes in without concrete testing data, and his sole purpose is not to discuss the strategy of the deck, but his intent is to discredit those of us who who disagree with his, extremely questionable point of view. I mean if I am wrong all the time, as Cyan basically tells me, I wouldnt have this lovely tag under my name, I would think it would be under his.
this is the competitive magic forum, where we discuss competitive decks of cards. the majority of good players on this site, BB18, Ixi, Nan, myself to name a few continuously post acutual results, things like match numbers, wins/loss, I myself even have an in depth statistical analysis. what does cyan have? an unvalidated, unverified, unaffirmed opinion that he continually misrepresents and states as fact. did I mention, that the opinion he expresses refutes the actual testing data of the rest of us. as I said earlier, this just comes down to Cyan being Cyan, and not being able to admit he is incorrect. I for one am sick of seeing this continually go on and on here without any sort of reaction from the staff. I was told a multitude of times, beit by a different regime, if you have something to say, that is completely fine, just do so in a respectful manner and keep in mind that everyone who posts on this forum is not as good as you are. Myself, and Ixi get suspensions and warnings for wanting to cut down on this nonsense, what happens to Cyan? not a thing, even though he is the most condescending and rude out of us all.
The whole basis of his testimony is: I havent tested against this actual deck but I have tested against Ghazi Glare so automatically I have this matchup in the bag.... sweet logic. any words after you flat out tell me that you have yet to test against this ACTUAL deck, fall upon def ears. I dont have a regular seat on the pro tour, I do have a nice a rating which I have worked hard for, I have many pro tour qualifier top 8's, ymg v. ng grudge match top 8 (did I mention I beat DARWIN KASTLE, that guy who just got inducted to that Hall of fame thingy, for my top 8 bid...), GPT top 8, as well as numerous unsanctioned event wins for things like sizeable sums of cash, PSP gaming systems and power nine cards... I dont have to validate anything to you cyan, because what do I care? you dont even provide playtesting results, all you are is some guy who sits at his crib in indiana or wherever and just likes to incite probelms between changing your kids diapers and cooking grilled cheese's...
this is just getting down right ridiculous, that so many people have issue with him, and nothing is down. ya know, at this point I dont even care if I get warnings, suspensions, bannings or hell just excommunicate me and send me into exile. these new rules have had everyone a little on edge, what with the unjust warnings being issued, and yet Cyan still remains untouched. Heres the irony though, according to the new rules, if you dont further the discussion in anyway, it is considered spam and is therefor a warnable offence. show me one damn piece of information, that cyan has provided that will "further" this decks production? all the posts I have read dont provide any new information, and are made up of him telling the rest of us, we are wrong.
I liken Cyan to David Spade in that capital one commercial, where he just keeps saying no, repeatedly. that guy looks pretty ridiculous right? cyan is pretty much the same way, if he didnt come up with it himself, it has to be wrong. you point out that I dont have any pro tour wins or what have you, but again, the ironic thing is, I didnt see your name at worlds, or even any other pro tour/grand prix event this season. where's your list of accolades, if you are so quick to ask for those of others.
Can't say I didn't give you fair warning about argueing, just look three posts up. Warning issued.
He said, several times, he tested, and said what his conclusions are.
thats an interesting notion, considering;
Quote from Cyan »
As for whether or not I've tested this matchup? Specifically vs. whatever you're playing? Obviously not.
my suggestion, read the thread before you make some outrageous claim. I have yet to see where Cyan comes out and posts any relevant testing data, all he keeps saying is that we should just take his word for it, because he has played many games.
Quote from Illvion »
If I am not mistaken, Lesurgo just posted a reply.
Im talking about specific action, ie. warning, suspension, something on those terms. Ya know, the same sort of things that are handed out to other users of this forum for doing less than what Cyan is right now...
Quote from Illvion »
If you get warnings (plural) maybe, just maybe you should doubt your innocence.
mmm... Just the like the two lesurgo handed me the other day, that were later deleted by Goblin Boy... I suppose I should have doubted my innocence then too, but I didnt, and well I know you cant check my user notes, but I assure you, those warnings cease to exist now.
Quote from Illvion »
This is like Bush saying "I am the president of the united states, so I must be good and right.".
Which is wrong. your powers of drawing comparisons seem to evade me. as I have pointed out; I have, BB18 has, and Nan has convincing DATA (data being the keyword) that states WF is the spell you should be naming. If anything, Cyan is guilty of this accusation more than anyone. If you read the majority of his reponses they basically say the same things; the person playing the deck isnt as good as me, and they are running a sub optimal list in his opinion.
Quote from Illvion »
By posting many, many replies here, it certainly seems you want us to believe your deck ideas are the best. To make yourself believable, you have to bring something else than "look at the tag under my name", and "I am good, and I have playtested". By saying this, you made yourself even less believable.
I do have a tag under my name, that states I know what I am doing. at least, more so than you sir. I am good and I have playtested. what is the issue with me pointing that out. Its funny had you actually, you know playtested, you would get upset too if someone who has not is telling you that they have an opinion that refutes you hard work to determine fact. though, thats just if you have actually playtested. I like to at least intelligently discuss my hard work, I would have no issue taking this junk had I not actually tested.
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In IBTG we trust
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Hats off to [BB18 & IBTG], you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
For the people who want to remain at the old Fungus Fires deck: there are some good ideas in the 'new' one, to make the control matchup more favourable. I'm just afraid Burning-Tree Shaman won't work though..
The only reason I am currently opposed to this is what you view in your mind as Fungus Fires (Sunforger and Ghazi) is, simply put, sub-par.
However, in a few days I'll make a thread with a list of all games I've played. *shrug*
I do agree with IBTG, because i've got warned for less than what Cyan is given in leeway. Apparently, Tom has too recently
As for moving this deck to another thread, it might just be better to do so. After all, the SunforgerGhazi version of Fungus Fires won't make it in this meta anyways, so just rename your deck and be cool like that.
Uhm, come on guys.. there is no need for the fighting.. I know you all want to be right but this should at least be mooved to another thread.. but the old version with sunforger and ghazi is kinda barley competitive.. but I guess it qualifies for tier 2 since it is somewhat good in some metas.. And while it may be suboptimal to the the new deck here then remember that some people will still be playing the old one.. People does play suboptimal decks and I think that the forums here should be able to both have decks that are high tiers but also decks that will be played.. decks you could actually reasonably meet in an average tourney.. and the old sunforger decks does still qualify as that..
ixi: I need to catch u on msn later to discuss ED.
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Uhm, come on guys.. there is no need for the fighting.. I know you all want to be right but this should at least be mooved to another thread.. but the old version with sunforger and ghazi is kinda barley competitive.. but I guess it qualifies for tier 2 since it is somewhat good in some metas.. And while it may be suboptimal to the the new deck here then remember that some people will still be playing the old one.. People does play suboptimal decks and I think that the forums here should be able to both have decks that are high tiers but also decks that will be played.. decks you could actually reasonably meet in an average tourney.. and the old sunforger decks does still qualify as that.
Before Guildpact it was Tier 2.
Afterwards, I see it as nothing but... well, dreadful. Why anyone would continue to play the Sunforger version of the deck is beyond me.
Am I claiming our list is the end-all, be-all? Nope. But it is significantly stronger than the antiquated versions of Fungus Fires. Some matchups do need some work, but things will also become a bit easier as we experiment with a few things, because this new incarnation is still rather young and liable to change.
Right now the ED match is... pretty iffy. Preboard, it's about 20/80, and post board it can barely imagine a 40/60. The reason for that, I feel, is that the manabase still isn't tuned to anywhere near perfection. I'm going to work on a few ideas regarding mana and hope that I can fix this issue. In all the games of ED I played, they absolutely **** on our manabase atm. Oftentimes, I've been in a strong position, only to get raped because they Annex'd one land out from under me, and with a green-based deck, that shouldn't ever be the case.
Nan is right. Even after GP, people are still going to play the old version of Fungus Fires...for some unknown reason. Sunforger will be way too slow to matter, and eventually the deck is sure to fall off of the radar, but, it'll take some time. It definetely won't be any better than it is now, except that it'll win a little more because you'll see a bit more Aggro around.
But, your deck seems to be more GWrb Control to me. When you say Fungus Fires, people think of Vitu-Ghazi/Sunforger.dec, because that's what the deck originally was created as.
Right now the ED match is... pretty iffy. Preboard, it's about 20/80, and post board it can barely imagine a 40/60. The reason for that, I feel, is that the manabase still isn't tuned to anywhere near perfection. I'm going to work on a few ideas regarding mana and hope that I can fix this issue. In all the games of ED I played, they absolutely **** on our manabase atm. Oftentimes, I've been in a strong position, only to get raped because they Annex'd one land out from under me, and with a green-based deck, that shouldn't ever be the case.
Which begs the question: Should we run Farseek or Kodama's Reach? Farseek makes the deck faster, as you now have 8 turn 2 plays that accellerate your mana and allows you to play either Hierarch, Slum, Fetters or *** on turn 3. Reach has way better synergy with Wildfire because of the extra land, but we should ideally be doing sth other than fetching lands turn 3. I nominate Farseek.
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Will: I agree the manabase is to vaulnarable to work vs ED. However, while you may ofcourse improve the ED matchup I dont think it will ever be in your favour.. I think because of the entire way the deck is built up it will be a weak matchup..
Cyan: Agreed.
The deck does need a new name.. calling it fungus fire gives people the wrong idea.. Suggestions:
Neo Fire
Fried Aggro
Fried Fat
Wild Aggro
Wild Neo
Pointy Aggro
Name it after the wrbg nephilim
edit: Thomavo: Det kommer ann på metaen mest sannsynlig Reach er bedre mot ED pga ekstra landet men ja, farseek er nok et bedre valg generelt sett.
in english: It depends on the meta. Reach is better vs ED but farseek better in general.. But then again I have barley tested the deck, mostly played against it..
Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism -how passionately I hate them!
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Nan- With all the mana fixing, Farseek is superior. As for the ED match, Reach is obviously better, 2 lands for 1 card makes it a 1 color Farseek if you get that turn 3 Annex from ED.
I think Will was gonna try 1 of some of the signets out to help with color fixing.
The deck needs a name change for sure. It's got control aspects, lots of creatures...4 color control is lame. It's more like Boom goes the Dynamite (big beaters + *** and some control).
Farseek is better because the deck runs twice as many non-basic lands as it does basics, and as has been noted, Farseek is 2 mana, as it STE, which helps to ensure that you have a 'power' play on turn 3. I also don't think you should go out of your way to improve the ED matchup, because the chance of that deck still being viable after GP rotates in is practically non-existant.
I think it's more important to work out the viability and best possible decklist before worrying about the name of the deck.
I honestly don't like Wildfire in the deck. I don't see any matchups where you really want to cast it, except to deal 4 damage to each creature. I think Savage Twister would be significantly better...it does the same damage as Wildfire for the same mana, and RG is actually probably easier for this deck to achieve than RR. It's also obviously more customizable, and can deal more than 4 if need be. One of the problems with Wildfire is that, when a creature is equipped with Jitte and has 2 counters, Wildfire is suddenly significantly worse than it was before.
Farseek is better because the deck runs twice as many non-basic lands as it does basics, and as has been noted, Farseek is 2 mana, as it STE, which helps to ensure that you have a 'power' play on turn 3. I also don't think you should go out of your way to improve the ED matchup, because the chance of that deck still being viable after GP rotates in is practically non-existant.
While I agree with Farseek I'd just like to note it's actually about a 50-50 split.
As for the thread, what do we want done? Do we want to request a name change, or let create a new one and let this live in the name of something subpar? :S
Anyway, the total of possible basics than can be fetched is still 10-12, and I have never run out of basic lands to get with Elder or Reach. On average I will draw 3 fetchers in a game, and playing each one decreases the chance of drawing a basic land, so that's really not a problem.
EDIT: (See Cyan's very good point about Farseek below) Farseek is very likely better than Wood Elves because it lowers your curve and increases your chance of dropping either Slum or Hierarch on turn 3. Heck, if you're gonna run creatures with bad synergy to fix your mana you might as well run Birds of Paradise. At least they give you a chance at turn two BTS and turn 3 Slum/Hierarch.
- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
So, when you were sacrificing to Wildfire, you didn't anticipate that he had Annex? That doesn't make Wildfire better, that just means that you made a mistake.
You should have Naturalize to minimalize this anyway...so why does that matter?
If that's the case, then you should be naming Leash/Confiscate with Extraction. This still doesn't explain how naming Wildfire is the right decision...because it's not. Their deck is very light on threats, even if you count Dream Leash. I'm not going to count Confiscate, because I don't see decks running it anymore, and just because Nan does isn't good enough for me. I see plenty of ED on MTGO, and I don't see Confiscate in them.
No one can be right all of the time, however, I am right this time. The only one of the three of you that is likely to have played with/against ED more than me is Nan, and from what I understand, he runs an old/no longer optimal version of the deck anyway.
Like I said, I'm confident that I have played many, many more games with and against ED than you or Will has. And real games vs. real decks, where people are investing alot of time and money to be playing, not just random Apprentice games. As for whether or not I've tested this matchup? Specifically vs. whatever you're playing? Obviously not. But have I played against base green decks that run KotNT and SB Cranial Extraction? Obviously I have. And I know, from personal experience, that it was much more crippling to me(as the ED player) when they removed my win conditions, as opposed to my Wildfires.
Goes the distance..unless they just block him with one of their guys(which you didn't Extract for)..or one of your guys that they have dream leashed, or confiscated if you're convinced that they'll run that card. Also, you're the one backing Copy Enchantment, and that makes your own 'ride KotNT to the win' scenario significantly less reliable. Besides, most of your spells are not threatening to ED at all, and they'll have plenty of countermagic post board, what makes you think you'll ever resolve a KotNT anyway, especially if you telegraph it coming by finding it w/ CaD?
As for relevant testing results, it's 2 people, that I know nothing about as far as playskill competency, vs. the entire MTGO community(literally NOONE runs Copy Enchantment), many of which are players that I know have played professionally to some degree, and to a large degree in some instances. I fail to see who WOULD listen to 2 random people in that situation? I wouldn't even expect people to listen to ME if it was me in that case.
:rolleyes:. If the debate is going to become 'IBTG always has the right cards and always makes the right play and always is up in every situation', then, we're done debating. I deal with reality, not make believe situations. Besides, if you're such a good player, prove it. Give us a link to a Regionals that you T8ed. Or even a PTQ that you T8ed. Or your DCI #. Back up your own claims. The only person on these forums that constantly talks about what a great player they are is you...so, go ahead and prove it. Or stop acting like you're a better player than everyone else. Because you're not. Or hell, I'll play ED vs. your deck, and we'll see who does better. Of course, I've seen lots of people challenge you before, and you never respond, so I doubt this time will be any different.
First of all, you forgot this one:
If Piledriver doesn't run Pyroclasm MD, that's his problem. I imagine he doesn't have alot of success with this deck in that circumstance either.
And I DON'T think that ED is a viable deck post-GP, but, if it is played, it still HAS to run Pyroclasm, even if the card does become less effective. It has to do so because there are no other good options for it to run...so I fail to see how any of this is relevant. If people still play ED(which they shouldn't once GP is legal), they will still need to play Pyroclasm.
How can you possibly argue that Wildfire is SO relevant that it's what you should name w/ Extraction, and then turn around and say that Sacred Ground, which hoses Wildfire 100%, and also hoses all LD based decks(UR LD is a factor, just because it's played alot, and RG LD will be a decent deck to replace ED)..yet it's too narrow? Considering that RG LD runs all of the relevant threats that this apparently updated version of Fungus Fires runs, and will also run LD and will cast it's spells more quickly, how can you say it's not a factor?
Considering that you don't play Jitte(and thusly don't really benefit from Wood Elves being a guy), and you're probably not putting the land into play untapped all that often(your mana curve is pretty high), Farseek seems significantly better than Wood Elves, to me.
Anticipating they have an Annex isn't going to magically cure the problem. Even if one does as much as they can to prepare for an Annex, after a well-timed Wildfire, it WILL **** you over if the ED player is good. There's no arguing that.
We've 3 Naturalize versus HOW many of their enchantments again?
Not true. It is far easier for me to Char or Wrath of God a stolen critter out of the way to lay another than it is for me to deal with a well-timed Wildfire or Kokusho, the Falling Star.
Have you tested THIS deck against Emminent Domain? If not, I kindly ask you to do so and then come back and refute this point again.
It is light on threats. However, you'll have a hell of a time actually removing their threats when you don't have the necessary manabase to do so because they've ripped it apart with Wildfire.
Whether or not is better, I won't debate because I don't play ED and am less versed in playing with it. However, I will say the other version I played against (ixidorsdream's list) runs more threats and no Confiscates and I find my match to be somewhat easier there.
That is entirely possible. I'll have to look into it.
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It is very hard to have a 'well timed Wildfire' vs. base green decks..the card is almost useless in those matchups. They run so much mana, and so many ways to accelerate it, that Wildfire is rarely ever going to leave you with an advantage. You end up just using it for the 4 damage, and praying they don't have a guy with Jitte at the time.
Not that many, in good decks. You rarely want to Naturalize an Annex. Mostly, you just have to let those go, as Annex isn't that effective in this matchup anyway..you have a ton of ways of finding land, all of which cost less than 4 mana...them spending 2UU on their turn to steal one is rarely effective.
Well, I agree that Kokusho is a major issue, which is why he needs to be named first with Extraction usually..but anyway.
No. But I've played a ridiculous amount of games vs. Glare, and this deck is pretty close to a slow Glare deck that also runs some :symr:.
Ixidors version is awful. Searchlight is awful, Copy Enchantment really isn't that good. Apparently he doesn't run Pyroclasm, or something. Or Tidings.
You have my AIM, if you want to test vs. the version I run sometime, just let me know.
we have testing data, that has been and is continued to be posted.
cyan, does not.
He must be right.
3 people have said, wildfire is the correct spell to name in this matchup.
Cyan is the only one making claims otherwise.
He must be right.
we have stuck by the same argument, over and over
Cyan keeps tippy-toeing around questions and making alterations to his claims as to keep in congruent to each argument we set forth
He must be right.
3 seperate sources stand by the same gameplan, but then no one can be right all the time
cyan, is one person, and as such, isnt right all the time, but he ensures us all he is right this time, sans any credible playtesting evidence.
He must be right.
whats the point.... we test, we prove it, we share the results and he just wants to sit here and pick them apart, and not provide any of his own. I for one wont be wasting any more time arguing with someone who just wants to hear themselves talk. if you have results cyan, lets see 'em son. if you aint got any, Im sure claims based on pure speculation and porous logic are much more accepted in the casual and DFC forum. if you would like, I can provide you a link.:rofl:
Anon - control RGW
Gladly, I'm taking you up on that offer.
Fake edit - We've got Game 1 out of the way so far. He had to run and do some chores around the house, but as soon as he gets back, we'll play some more, and I'll edit results in here.
Game 1: Butte
He powers out a fast Icy Manipulator and Dream Leash, while I accelerate a bit with a 3rd turn Reach into two Plains. Not long after, a Faith's Fetterds joins the fray to keep his Icy down. The next turn sees me playing an Overgrown Tomb untapped to drop a Kodama. He manages to get a Kokusho, to which I counter by playing my own Yosei. He ends up swinging and then Mirening the Kokusho away, and I tap him down for a turn. He's at 29 and I stabilize to 18 with a Hierarch the turn after Koko dies. The Kodama and Hierarch manage to lay the beats and a Char comes down for the final points of damage. This game, imo, isn't all the conclusive as he seemed to suffer some severe mana flood.
<insert rest of games here>
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I guess hundreds of REL-2 games on MTGO don't count as testing now. How lucky for you.
Again, I guess the fact that I've never seen someone name Wildfire and win because of it, in countless games played as and against this deck, don't count in your eyes. How convenient.
Name one thing that I've 'tip-toed' around..I have gone out of my way to address every point that has been brought up. Unlike what you're doing now.
3 seperate sources that are part of the same group that continually back each other up. Y'all might as well be one source for what that matters. At least Nan has experience with the deck, and Will can admit that he doesn't. As usual, you've lost the argument now, and you're just resorting to trying to discredit me..but it's not working.
If anyone needs to visit the DFC forum, it's you, along with this deck. You haven't even shown how it's viable, except 'because you said so'. But that doesn't mean anything. Go on, prove that the deck is good. Provide some real testing vs. relevant decks.
-vs R/W-aggro: It just wins. Mass removal, lifegain and fat spell doom for the opponent. Preliminary testing supports this claim.
-vs Ghazi-Glare: Matchup is favorable. ***, Wildfire (is your friend), Fetters and especially BTS kinda wrecks their day. Preliminary testing supports this claim.
-vs Eminent Domain: Tough matchup, but post-board things look good with Sacred Ground, Naturalize, Needle and Cranials. Preliminary testing supports this claim.
-vs CMU: 50/50-ish. Early Jittes can spell doom in this matchup, but post-board things look brighter yet again. Wildfire is your friend yet again. Preliminary testing supports this claim.
I haven't tested enough against URza and Ub-control yet. Also bear in mind that tests are random matches on MWS.
- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
He's completely right on most all accounts. Cyan tends to come into an argument, especially those including test results for proof, and discredit the tester and his argument. He doesn't do it with test results of his own, but with "because I say so"'s. It's because of that I gave in and now I have my first User on the Ignore List.
As for Pyroclasm, my ED hasn't run it in a long while, but even at a 4 of, drawing 2 without ever having used 1 was rare, and not a sound strategy idea. I really just wanted a Wildfire.
Nan and I both tested CE, and it's a good card. I tested Mimeofacture, and it's a good card. Cyans response is "not a Japanese exact decklist, no good".
As an ED player, keeping this off its base seems easy enough. I'd try to Fire Kodama and Hierarch, but CopyEnching one is just as fun.
Will (bb18)- if you really wanna test out against a real ED player with an updated REAL decklist, talk to me. I am thinking of running 1 Confiscate MD and taking a Leash because Cranial does zap this, and with Izzy Sig now, mana is much smoother to get to another UU card, just costing 1 more than Leash. A 1 of Confiscate allows me to possibly nab that Yosei to save my life vs your Kodama since you Cranial'd my Wildfires (this deck would before the dragons I'm assuming since you've gott a shotty manabase).
In other words, well put Will and Ibtg. Straight for the ED players mouth.
Or as Cyan puts it, the "ED King"
Edit- Will, I'd agree with Farseek in your mana base however. Even idiots can be right if they guess long enough Aggro shouldn't worry you enough to need a chump body like Wood Elves.
No one cares that you put me on your ignore list, so stop mentioning it. If anything, it just shows an acquiescense on your part..you knew you'd lost the argument, so, you just refuse to listen to anything I have to say. Aside from that, as I've said countless times now, I have a TON of testing results, which are significantly more relevant than anything of yours, because they're against better players in a more serious venue. Of course, it keeps magically getting ignored that I've said this, but, I'll just keep saying it..it'll stick eventually.
Your ED is also bad, so, why is that a good reason to not run Pyroclasm? You also don't run Tidings, you still run Searchlight, and you probably still run Aquaduct. All wrong choices. Anyone that has tested ED vs. any good players with good decks would have realized these things.
Please point out where I said that Extraction was a bad card? That has nothing whatsoever to do with this. Once again, you are just showing how much you absolutely do not know what you are talking about. And I've never said that it has to be the exact Japanese decklist, I said that that decklist is significantly better than yours, which it is. I also explained, in detail, WHY it is better.
We only had time for 4 games today, because I had an MTGO Premier Event to play in, but, I won 3-1 in those 4 games. Feel free to make more random totally baseless 'real player' claims. Besides, how can you argue for running 1 copy of Confiscate when you spent like 5 posts trying to argue that running 1 of anything is pointless(see Honden of Seeing Winds).
No, that's the 'self-proclaimed ED King'. Which means that you think you know alot about the deck, but, in reality you don't know much at all. Your decklist is awful anymore, anyone that is remotely good at deckbuilding or playing can figure that out. The metagame has long since shifted past it being even remotely good.
Yeah, it's either that I'm an idiot, or, I'm right about all of this and no one wants to admit it. Oh well, time will tell. But, I know I'm right. And I'll prove it. I'll play my version of ED vs. a gauntlet of decks(played by you). Then, you can play your version of ED vs. the same exact decks, played by me. We'll see whom does better. If you don't accept this, then, stop bothering me. It's time to put up or shut up(obviously someone will have to relay this message to him, not that he'll ever do it anyway).
I think that if it had its own seperate thread, it would cause a lot less arguing. No, it won't be stickied until after Guildpact becomes legal so you guys will have to live with it down below the stickied threads for a while.
This thread right now is getting out of hand with its arguments. There are several posts on this thread that were recently made that are borderline flame warnings. Cyan, Ibeattomguevin and Ixidorsdreams, you need to end your feud. There is a difference between talking strategy and refuting each others opinions just to be right to try and prove the other person knows nothing. Stop the bickering please as its getting heated and if it goes much farther several warnings will most likely be handed out.
I don't mind deck discussion, I promote it, but please do it in a civil manner.
I was in my conversation (as was IBTG) referring to Copy Enchantment (CE). *bows head in disgust* try to keep up Cyan, will you?
I'm not going to defend my Emminent Domain build. Nan respects it, Will respects it, people here didn't mind my testing, nor at Manatap. People know when they see a respectful contributor and can make the distinction between that and an overly confident elitist. ELiTiST.
And to be self proclaimed, I have to proclaim. I never called myself the ED king nor do I now. If I was, you'd have seen me at Japan.
Saying you'll be in a Premier event does nothing for you. You going 3-1 doesn't prove anything. Thanks for that.
I run Izzet Signet over Fellwar Stone and Spectral Searchlight. Just because I didn't like Boros Signet as a better alternate than Searchlight you've humped that argument into the 3rd layer of the Earth's core. I also don't run Aqueducts anymore, but I haven't posted an updated list so that only makes your assumptions even worse. Next thing ill be running Cerulean Sphinx as a win condition according to you.
You claim all the time you do so much testing, and in a worthy venue. MTGO? With their horrible shuffling issues or where you have to buy cards, like the Shock and Dual lands? Yeah real even playing field there. Or is your worthy venue your testing group? How worthy are results we never see? Everytime I see a post by you it's to diss the ideas of other members or their PROVEN testing.
If you're gonna talk about testing, show it. Why haven't you seen mine? (Lately, still making more appearances than yours) Because the current meta is literally balls up in the air, so trying to test against 50 different decks, none of which have been established as even on the Tiers, is pointless.
And you figure when multiple prominent members say you're wrong, you are. Are you the pope? To be infallable is quite the talent!
Just cuz I ignore most all ur posts, I can see when ur quoted. Ill respond without reading your childish gibberish of a response from now on, it seems much simpler for you.
Who needs wants to debate with someone who thinks they're never wrong?
Edit- That was in response to Cyan, and posted seconds after Lesurgo's post. Didn't see it there before I posted, so feel free to delete this post if you're deleting the rant ones by all 3 of us. If not, this came less than a minute later, so sry.
I do agree that discussion of the new deck should be moved to a different thread, even though the Sunforger argument has been over for a few pages now. The new deck doesn't function like a sans-Sunforger version of Fungus Fires anyway.
The last pages of arguments, sadly, are more part of said feud than any real attempt at discussing what to name with Cranial against ED. The ED-thread seems bogged down by the same problem...
@Cyan: Are you even interested in playing IBTG and BB18's build? It seems you are not, so why even bother arguing your case? When you three start "debating" it just turns into mudslinging anyway...
I'll continue testing today, and will try to provide a more detailed matchup analysis with testing results as the day progresses. I suggest those of us that actually want to play the deck do the same.
- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
this is the competitive magic forum, where we discuss competitive decks of cards. the majority of good players on this site, BB18, Ixi, Nan, myself to name a few continuously post acutual results, things like match numbers, wins/loss, I myself even have an in depth statistical analysis. what does cyan have? an unvalidated, unverified, unaffirmed opinion that he continually misrepresents and states as fact.
did I mention, that the opinion he expresses refutes the actual testing data of the rest of us. as I said earlier, this just comes down to Cyan being Cyan, and not being able to admit he is incorrect. I for one am sick of seeing this continually go on and on here without any sort of reaction from the staff. I was told a multitude of times, beit by a different regime, if you have something to say, that is completely fine, just do so in a respectful manner and keep in mind that everyone who posts on this forum is not as good as you are. Myself, and Ixi get suspensions and warnings for wanting to cut down on this nonsense, what happens to Cyan? not a thing, even though he is the most condescending and rude out of us all.
The whole basis of his testimony is: I havent tested against this actual deck but I have tested against Ghazi Glare so automatically I have this matchup in the bag.... sweet logic. any words after you flat out tell me that you have yet to test against this ACTUAL deck, fall upon def ears. I dont have a regular seat on the pro tour, I do have a nice a rating which I have worked hard for, I have many pro tour qualifier top 8's, ymg v. ng grudge match top 8 (did I mention I beat DARWIN KASTLE, that guy who just got inducted to that Hall of fame thingy, for my top 8 bid...), GPT top 8, as well as numerous unsanctioned event wins for things like sizeable sums of cash, PSP gaming systems and power nine cards... I dont have to validate anything to you cyan, because what do I care? you dont even provide playtesting results, all you are is some guy who sits at his crib in indiana or wherever and just likes to incite probelms between changing your kids diapers and cooking grilled cheese's...
this is just getting down right ridiculous, that so many people have issue with him, and nothing is down. ya know, at this point I dont even care if I get warnings, suspensions, bannings or hell just excommunicate me and send me into exile. these new rules have had everyone a little on edge, what with the unjust warnings being issued, and yet Cyan still remains untouched. Heres the irony though, according to the new rules, if you dont further the discussion in anyway, it is considered spam and is therefor a warnable offence. show me one damn piece of information, that cyan has provided that will "further" this decks production? all the posts I have read dont provide any new information, and are made up of him telling the rest of us, we are wrong.
I liken Cyan to David Spade in that capital one commercial, where he just keeps saying no, repeatedly. that guy looks pretty ridiculous right? cyan is pretty much the same way, if he didnt come up with it himself, it has to be wrong. you point out that I dont have any pro tour wins or what have you, but again, the ironic thing is, I didnt see your name at worlds, or even any other pro tour/grand prix event this season. where's your list of accolades, if you are so quick to ask for those of others.
Can't say I didn't give you fair warning about argueing, just look three posts up. Warning issued.
-Lesurgo
Anon - control RGW
thats an interesting notion, considering;
my suggestion, read the thread before you make some outrageous claim. I have yet to see where Cyan comes out and posts any relevant testing data, all he keeps saying is that we should just take his word for it, because he has played many games.
Im talking about specific action, ie. warning, suspension, something on those terms. Ya know, the same sort of things that are handed out to other users of this forum for doing less than what Cyan is right now...
mmm... Just the like the two lesurgo handed me the other day, that were later deleted by Goblin Boy... I suppose I should have doubted my innocence then too, but I didnt, and well I know you cant check my user notes, but I assure you, those warnings cease to exist now.
This is like Bush saying "I am the president of the united states, so I must be good and right.".
Which is wrong.
your powers of drawing comparisons seem to evade me. as I have pointed out; I have, BB18 has, and Nan has convincing DATA (data being the keyword) that states WF is the spell you should be naming. If anything, Cyan is guilty of this accusation more than anyone. If you read the majority of his reponses they basically say the same things; the person playing the deck isnt as good as me, and they are running a sub optimal list in his opinion.
I do have a tag under my name, that states I know what I am doing. at least, more so than you sir. I am good and I have playtested. what is the issue with me pointing that out. Its funny had you actually, you know playtested, you would get upset too if someone who has not is telling you that they have an opinion that refutes you hard work to determine fact. though, thats just if you have actually playtested. I like to at least intelligently discuss my hard work, I would have no issue taking this junk had I not actually tested.
Anon - control RGW
The only reason I am currently opposed to this is what you view in your mind as Fungus Fires (Sunforger and Ghazi) is, simply put, sub-par.
However, in a few days I'll make a thread with a list of all games I've played. *shrug*
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
Ubuntu Linux
As for moving this deck to another thread, it might just be better to do so. After all, the SunforgerGhazi version of Fungus Fires won't make it in this meta anyways, so just rename your deck and be cool like that.
ixi: I need to catch u on msn later to discuss ED.
[thread=41221][my extendo sig][/thread] [thread=56664][moderator helpdesk][/thread] [Pen and Paper Inn]
Just add me on msn if you have any questions or just want to talk
Before Guildpact it was Tier 2.
Afterwards, I see it as nothing but... well, dreadful. Why anyone would continue to play the Sunforger version of the deck is beyond me.
Am I claiming our list is the end-all, be-all? Nope. But it is significantly stronger than the antiquated versions of Fungus Fires. Some matchups do need some work, but things will also become a bit easier as we experiment with a few things, because this new incarnation is still rather young and liable to change.
Right now the ED match is... pretty iffy. Preboard, it's about 20/80, and post board it can barely imagine a 40/60. The reason for that, I feel, is that the manabase still isn't tuned to anywhere near perfection. I'm going to work on a few ideas regarding mana and hope that I can fix this issue. In all the games of ED I played, they absolutely **** on our manabase atm. Oftentimes, I've been in a strong position, only to get raped because they Annex'd one land out from under me, and with a green-based deck, that shouldn't ever be the case.
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
Ubuntu Linux
But, your deck seems to be more GWrb Control to me. When you say Fungus Fires, people think of Vitu-Ghazi/Sunforger.dec, because that's what the deck originally was created as.
- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Cyan: Agreed.
The deck does need a new name.. calling it fungus fire gives people the wrong idea.. Suggestions:
Neo Fire
Fried Aggro
Fried Fat
Wild Aggro
Wild Neo
Pointy Aggro
Name it after the wrbg nephilim
edit: Thomavo: Det kommer ann på metaen mest sannsynlig Reach er bedre mot ED pga ekstra landet men ja, farseek er nok et bedre valg generelt sett.
in english: It depends on the meta. Reach is better vs ED but farseek better in general.. But then again I have barley tested the deck, mostly played against it..
[thread=41221][my extendo sig][/thread] [thread=56664][moderator helpdesk][/thread] [Pen and Paper Inn]
Just add me on msn if you have any questions or just want to talk
I think Will was gonna try 1 of some of the signets out to help with color fixing.
The deck needs a name change for sure. It's got control aspects, lots of creatures...4 color control is lame. It's more like Boom goes the Dynamite (big beaters + *** and some control).
I think it's more important to work out the viability and best possible decklist before worrying about the name of the deck.
I honestly don't like Wildfire in the deck. I don't see any matchups where you really want to cast it, except to deal 4 damage to each creature. I think Savage Twister would be significantly better...it does the same damage as Wildfire for the same mana, and RG is actually probably easier for this deck to achieve than RR. It's also obviously more customizable, and can deal more than 4 if need be. One of the problems with Wildfire is that, when a creature is equipped with Jitte and has 2 counters, Wildfire is suddenly significantly worse than it was before.
While I agree with Farseek I'd just like to note it's actually about a 50-50 split.
As for Savage Twister, I actually like that idea:
4 Forest
3 Mountain
4 Plains
1 Swamp
// Non-Basic Lands
3 Sacred Foundry
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Stomping Ground
4 Temple Garden
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
// Beat-The-Crap-Out-Of-You's
2 Yosei, the Morning Star
3 Kodama of the North Tree
3 Rumbling Slum
3 Burning-Tree Shaman
3 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Farseek
// Haven't You Heard Creatures Were Bad for Your Health?
4 Char
4 Wrath of God
3 Faith's Fetters
3 Savage Twister
// Other
2 Congregation at Dawn
3 Pithing Needle
3 Grave-Shell Scarab
3 Naturalize
3 Sacred Ground
3 Cranial Extraction
As for the thread, what do we want done? Do we want to request a name change, or let create a new one and let this live in the name of something subpar? :S
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
Ubuntu Linux