Just a question, when you're starting fast (STE, Slum, Slum) with the deck IBTG and BB18 describes, aren't *** and Wildfire useless cards in hand?
How can Wildfire be bad with Slum? I can see your point with ***, but if you're able to resolve a Wildfire turn 5 with 2 Rumbling Slum on the board it's pretty much game.
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Yes im aware cranial handles dragons better than devouring light, but it also makes an already mana intensive deck into even moreso mana intentsive. Hense the devouring light, an actual on-color spell. Wanting to be able to have RGGWWB on turn 3-4, along with another green on the next turn,IS a challenge. And the extra Kodama/Yosei are alot better against control decks(the majority of the tier 1 in the current format) than wrath. The sideboarded Congreg/Slum/Yosei comes in VS Emminent Domain, to be able to prepare for their wildfire and drop a fast Slum/Yosei. the 3rd Congreg also helps for consistency of Triple-Hierarch vs aggro.
Does the deck really need Caryatid in the board though? In my experience the removal/lifegain in the maindeck is more than enough to ward off aggro.
ED is a painful matchup, especially game 1, so I'm trying out Sacred Ground and/or Primeval Light in the sideboard to combat Wildfire and Annex/Dream Leash/Confiscate. Thoughts?
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I dropped the caryatid from the board a couple days ago, because of just that. I didnt really need the wall with fetter's, heirarch/CaD, wrath and wildfire pummelling aggro already.
ed is a pain the first game, agreed. games 2 and 3 are fairly even though considering I have access to cranial and naturalize. depending on how things shape up cranial nabbing their wildfire followed by north tree can go a good ways in sealing the deal. this is most def a match though that I would test thoroughly as the winner is ussually determined primarily on skill.
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Shattering Spree could also be a decent sideboard card to combat ED's 6-8 signets and 3-4 Icys, but maybe its too narrow. Still, we'd "only" need 2-3 red mana to put a serious dent in their plan.
3-4 Cranials plus 3-4 Natty-effects is probably enough post-board though, even though I'd like to shore up that matchup even further
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I dropped the caryatid from the board a couple days ago, because of just that. I didnt really need the wall with fetter's, heirarch/CaD, wrath and wildfire pummelling aggro already.
ed is a pain the first game, agreed. games 2 and 3 are fairly even though considering I have access to cranial and naturalize. depending on how things shape up cranial nabbing their wildfire followed by north tree can go a good ways in sealing the deal. this is most def a match though that I would test thoroughly as the winner is ussually determined primarily on skill.
Considering that your deck A)runs Yosei and B)runs about 10x as many threats as they do; I fail to see why you would ever name Wildfire and not Kokusho and then Keiga. ED never has anymore win conditions than these, and generally has 2 of each, maybe 3 Kokusho(which you would name first anyway). Wildfire is fairly irrelevant when they have no way of winning the game.
Considering that your deck A)runs Yosei and B)runs about 10x as many threats as they do; I fail to see why you would ever name Wildfire and not Kokusho and then Keiga. ED never has anymore win conditions than these, and generally has 2 of each, maybe 3 Kokusho(which you would name first anyway). Wildfire is fairly irrelevant when they have no way of winning the game.
Not necessarily. The deck seems divided into two versions - one supporting more of the win conditions, and one supporting more of the "thievery" enchantments.
The version heavy on Confiscate and its ilk actually kicks this deck's ass if you don't fire off a CE naming Wildfire. Since they're running as much as 4 more spells to steal lands from you, you can often find yourself with 10+ lands in the graveyard after a Wildfire or two. Come post sideboarding, if you can quickly nuke their Wildfires and then their Kokushos, it's almost a guaranteed win.
I have never, in all of my matches, seen a version of this deck that runs Confiscate that is successful. I've seen versions that run it, but, they don't win, because that card is too situational, and often there is no way for them to steal a guy that will survive Wildfire.
Considering that your deck A)runs Yosei and B)runs about 10x as many threats as they do; I fail to see why you would ever name Wildfire and not Kokusho and then Keiga.
relax Cyan, dont get your knickers ina twist. I will be more than happy to clarify my position.
I do run about 10x as many threats as they do, which brings up an interesting point. while, they may not have many concrete win conditions, as you pointed out only kokusho and keiga, they still have dream leash. You should know as well as anyone that dream leash can compensate for the lack of win conditions, just be me playing a slum and attacking with it. since, I am a good player, I would rather not allow a deck with already so few win conditions any more, especially if they are originally cast on my side of the board.
understand why I am going to name wildfire yet? Ill keep going....
If you dont allow one of your men to dream leashed/confiscared/possibly even mimeofactured, ED has but 2 win conditions totally 4 spells... I have CaD tutoring capabilites which allows me to search up north tree. now, Im beating you in the face for 6 points a turn, because I cranialed out the only spell that gives you an out to this man. now you are in a position where you need to draw 1 of 4 cards in your deck in no more than 4 turns, or I will just beat your face.
that to me seems like the game plan. even so, I would still name keiga before kokusho. I have enough support to recoup 10 points of lifeloss, whereas again, I dont want to give them any more threats and allow them to 2 for 1 off a 5/5 flyer.
Ive been playing the deck yesterday vs Will and ED definitivly had the edge post sb and even after sb it still is a tough matchup. I would say that Cranial does hurt a lot and it hurt the most when it it wf. I was very reliant on wf to be able to control the deck properly.. Sure I have few win conditions but hey, I can steal urs
Cyan: My version is playing confiscates at the moment and its doing very well.. (I steal lands more often then threats with it)
btw: One very important thing in the matchup between this deck and ED is that the ED player will need to be very carefull with what lands and what colors you keep the opponent off.. Also post SB you will need weapons against his cranials (btw I was dumb and forgot to side in my shadows..)
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IBTG: Copy Enchantment with Dream Leash is also a way to deal with Kodama.
agreed. However, I was making a case to Cyan considering I know that he does not run Copy enchantment, which I think is a mistake, as it is so good. He and Ixidor's dream a rather lengthy discussion regarding the spell in the ED thread recently. Though, still I stick behind wildfire being the correct spell to name. If you hit their wildfire, then the only out to kodama is by drawing a dream leash, casting it, have it resolve on a target, then draw into a copy enchantment, targeting dream leash and have that resolve. sort of a little more difficult than just resolving one wildfire or when you know I can easily just trump you entire turn's play by casting eot naturalize for 1G. I want to deal with a spell that they have 4 of versus, a spell that might not even be running, as was the case in the list that won Japan end of the years.
Quote from Nan »
Ive been playing the deck yesterday vs Will and ED definitivly had the edge post sb and even after sb it still is a tough matchup. I would say that Cranial does hurt a lot and it hurt the most when it it wf. I was very reliant on wf to be able to control the deck properly.. Sure I have few win conditions but hey, I can steal urs Here we have a gentleman, who has actually tested the matchup, who is corroborating my testimony... WF is a key spell for them, I dont know about you guys, but Im getting rid of the the spell that allows them to win the game.
I understand why cyan has the opinion he does tough.. The deck doesnt need wildfire as much against many other decks but its against this deck spesificly that it is a key spell because all ur land stealing suddenly dont matter as much without wf because they run rampant with land fetching so its hard to keep up with it and at the same time get rid of small and midsize threats.. Wf is the only spell in the deck that can keep up the pace.. I know that without beeing able to time wildfires against will precicly when it hurt the most I would have lost just about all the games, finishers or no..
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I understand why cyan has the opinion he does tough..
so do I.
Quote from Nan »
The deck doesnt need wildfire as much against many other decks but its against this deck spesificly that it is a key spell because all ur land stealing suddenly dont matter as much without wf because they run rampant with land fetching so its hard to keep up with it and at the same time get rid of small and midsize threats..
thats actually the best I think I have heard the matchup described thus far, good work sir. I have tested too though, and this fact was blatantly obvious to me. I just thought it was interesting that Cyan responded as though I had 6 heads, because I said that wildfire would be my first extraction target.
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relax Cyan, dont get your knickers ina twist. I will be more than happy to clarify my position.
For my 'knickers' to be in a twist, I would have to actually care about this, which I don't, I was merely pointing out what I felt(and still feel) is, generally, a misplay.
I do run about 10x as many threats as they do, which brings up an interesting point. while, they may not have many concrete win conditions, as you pointed out only kokusho and keiga, they still have dream leash. You should know as well as anyone that dream leash can compensate for the lack of win conditions, just be me playing a slum and attacking with it. since, I am a good player, I would rather not allow a deck with already so few win conditions any more, especially if they are originally cast on my side of the board.
Dream Leash is hardly what I consider a reliable win condition. The same goes for Confiscate; considering that they can both easily be Naturalized, and I'm fairly sure that you'll be bringing in Naturalize for this matchup.
understand why I am going to name wildfire yet? Ill keep going....
No, I think you're mis-evaluating how ED games go.
If you dont allow one of your men to dream leashed/confiscared/possibly even mimeofactured, ED has but 2 win conditions totally 4 spells... I have CaD tutoring capabilites which allows me to search up north tree. now, Im beating you in the face for 6 points a turn, because I cranialed out the only spell that gives you an out to this man. now you are in a position where you need to draw 1 of 4 cards in your deck in no more than 4 turns, or I will just beat your face.
But wait, as you just said yourself, they can easily just Confiscate or Dream Leash any of these win conditions...in reality, it will be easier for them to do so, because you've removed their Wildfire, and they're bound to be sitting on a ton of mana. Besides, all of their guys are 'outs' to this man. Even if they just steal your Hierarch, that is yet another 'out'. 2x Pyroclasm is also an 'out'. It's silly to think that you're going to beat ED just by Extracting Wildfire and swinging with KotNT.
that to me seems like the game plan. even so, I would still name keiga before kokusho. I have enough support to recoup 10 points of lifeloss, whereas again, I dont want to give them any more threats and allow them to 2 for 1 off a 5/5 flyer.
Keiga rarely wins games for ED, it's always 1-2 swings with Kokusho followed up by another Kokusho or Miren.
In reality, naming Wildfire accomplishes almost nothing vs ED in this matchup. Decks like this have so much mana acceleration that the chances of them actually keeping enough of a land advantage over you that they can afford to cast Wildfire are almost negligible. On top of all of that, considering ED and UR LD(not to mention RG LD to come soon), you should be running 3x Sacred Ground in the SB anyway, which completely nullifies Wildfire, without you having to waste an Extraction on it.
In reality, naming Wildfire accomplishes almost nothing vs ED in this matchup. Decks like this have so much mana acceleration that the chances of them actually keeping enough of a land advantage over you that they can afford to cast Wildfire are almost negligible. On top of all of that, considering ED and UR LD(not to mention RG LD to come soon), you should be running 3x Sacred Ground in the SB anyway, which completely nullifies Wildfire, without you having to waste an Extraction on it.
Your analysis leaves something to be desired. Throughout all the games we played, if nan kept me off of four mana, or WW, or even post-board B, he had the game in his hands, essentially. The match I *did* win against nan was because in the 3rd game I managed to fire off a well-timed Extraction on his Wildfires, and follow it up a few turns later with another Extraction on Kokusho. Even then he got me down to 6 life (he was at 3 at this point) before my 2 Wood Elves and 1 Sakura managed to play around his 2 Icy Manipulator for the win.
While I disagree with your analysis, I AM testing Sacred Ground in the board today and hoping to see some improvement.
With that said, as of current, here is my most updated list:
As much as I loved Reach, I've slowly been moving towards Wood Elves because the Duals simply help all that much more to make sure I'll never have color issues. The one downside is that I obviously can't even attempt to use Blood Moon as a weapon in the sideboard, but I think the advantages of using Wood Elves outweigh that.
Your analysis leaves something to be desired. Throughout all the games we played, if nan kept me off of four mana, or WW, or even post-board B, he had the game in his hands, essentially.
What does Wildfire have to do with keeping you off of specific mana? It's not as though he chooses what lands you sacrifice. Keeping you off of specific mana just involves choosing the correct land to Annex/Icy, I fail to see where Wildfire comes into the picture.
The match I *did* win against nan was because in the 3rd game I managed to fire off a well-timed Extraction on his Wildfires, and follow it up a few turns later with another Extraction on Kokusho. Even then he got me down to 6 life (he was at 3 at this point) before my 2 Wood Elves and 1 Sakura managed to play around his 2 Icy Manipulator for the win.
So, you named Wildfire and Kokusho and still barely won. What was he damaging you with? Keiga? What if you'd named Kokusho and Keiga, what would have happened then? Or, if you named Kokusho first, and saw that he had Confiscate or Leash in play, and still hadn't played them when you Extracted again, you could have named one of them. It doesn't seem like Extracting Wildfire accomplished anything whatsoever.
While I disagree with your analysis, I AM testing Sacred Ground in the board today and hoping to see some improvement.
Obviously it's going to be an improvement, it's just a matter of 'is it an improvement enough to warrant running'. Considering the metagame, it seems like this will be a 'yes'.
With that said, as of current, here is my most updated list:
As much as I loved Reach, I've slowly been moving towards Wood Elves because the Duals simply help all that much more to make sure I'll never have color issues. The one downside is that I obviously can't even attempt to use Blood Moon as a weapon in the sideboard, but I think the advantages of using Wood Elves outweigh that.
I don't really think you could use Blood Moon anyway, unless you just move away from duals, but then, you really can't run a 3 color deck w/ no duals whatsoever..it barely worked in Kamigawa Block, and really doesn't work in Standard.
What does Wildfire have to do with keeping you off of specific mana? It's not as though he chooses what lands you sacrifice. Keeping you off of specific mana just involves choosing the correct land to Annex/Icy, I fail to see where Wildfire comes into the picture.
Because, after a Wildfire they have the resources to Annex and **** me over. Even assuming we waited as long as turn 6 for Wildfire to hit play, I get to keep all of maybe 3-4 lands? Even Assuming I had all duals the best I can hope for is GGG,WW,RR,B (Temple Garden, Overgrown Tomb, Sacred Foundry, Stomping Ground) All they need to do is drop a single Annex and I go into topdecking mode.
So, you named Wildfire and Kokusho and still barely won. What was he damaging you with? Keiga? What if you'd named Kokusho and Keiga, what would have happened then?
Well, I do hear that they have a knack for taking YOUR critters. *shrug*
Or, if you named Kokusho first, and saw that he had Confiscate or Leash in play, and still hadn't played them when you Extracted again, you could have named one of them. It doesn't seem like Extracting Wildfire accomplished anything whatsoever.
I really could care less about Keiga. More often than not, a well-placed Faith's Fetters is all I've ever needed against it when playing vs ED.
see Cyan, its funny 3 people who have tested the matchup are considered compotent players disagree with you. I can understand standing ones ground, but as you have even said yourself you cant be right all the time.
Quote from Cyan »
For my 'knickers' to be in a twist, I would have to actually care about this, which I don't, I was merely pointing out what I felt(and still feel) is, generally, a misplay.
you are welcome to 'feel' whatever you would like, but the people who have actually tested the matchup, are telling you that your presumptions are incorrect. if you didnt care, then you wouldnt have posted. thats a very weak argument coming from the likes of you.
Quote from Cyan »
Dream Leash is hardly what I consider a reliable win condition. The same goes for Confiscate; considering that they can both easily be Naturalized, and I'm fairly sure that you'll be bringing in Naturalize for this matchup.
yes, I already said I would be bringing in naturalize. I agree though dream leash is not a reliable win condition, though it still allows you to run a relatively light threat base, and by light threat base I mean 4 guys... either way, that is still irrelevant because Im advocating naming their wildfire's so my kodama can stay on the board. ideally speaking Im not going to allow them to rob one of my men and crush my face with him.
Quote from Cyan »
No, I think you're mis-evaluating how ED games go.
we have tested the matchup and are continuing to do so. Have you?
Quote from Cyan »
But wait, as you just said yourself, they can easily just Confiscate or Dream Leash any of these win conditions...
and apparently you missed the portion where I stated I was going to be CaDing up Kodama... which outside of the copy enchantment scenario, goes the distance. I'll get to your pyroclasm theory in a moment.
Quote from Cyan »
in reality, it will be easier for them to do so, because you've removed their Wildfire, and they're bound to be sitting on a ton of mana. Besides, all of their guys are 'outs' to this man. Even if they just steal your Hierarch, that is yet another 'out'. 2x Pyroclasm is also an 'out'. It's silly to think that you're going to beat ED just by Extracting Wildfire and swinging with KotNT.
cyan, I guess my point is, I dont care if they have a ton of mana. cast all the confiscates,annex,mimeofacture,dream leash you want Im still beating your face in with KotNT. the only spell I dont want to see, is the same one you were so adimant about telling Ixi was an awful spell to play. Both Nan and Ixi have said that copy enchantment has been very useful, though i dont really expect you to actually believe anyones concrete playtesting results.
I have CaD and Im a good player. I told you already Im going to be getting threats I know they cant rob. This isnt an aggro matchup so heirarch can def come out in favor of graveshell scarab, which you shouldnt be allowing to get robbed. in in the instance of heirarch I would most def sac him before they leash resolved anyway, if he was going to be an obstacle for kodama.
as far as the two pyroclasm theory; from our very own ED thread on this forum
Quote from Me »
in my testing thus far, clasm is less effective now in this format. it will hit random mana producers, sure but for the most part aggro men got a toughness boost. men like watchwolf, heriarch, shaman, rumbling slum are all seeing frequent spots on the board, in which case they just shake of the clasm and keep running after you.
Quote from cyan »
I'm honestly not even sure that this deck is viable post GP, mostly because the face of aggro will be so different. You will be seeing hordes of /3 creatures now, even ones that cost 1 mana(Kird Ape), instead of hordes of /2 creatures.
and then, Cyan's right hand man, GPiledriver;
Quote from Gpiledriver »
I haven't run Pyro main since day one ;). I run 3x Remands in the 3 slots, because I find that most of the time they do a better job at hosing aggros tempo than Pyro does, and gets a card to boot.
sir , do you still want to tell me that double pyroclasm is a viable option to dealing with kodama? I think that is more than enough evidence right there to refute said claim.
In terms of sacred ground, I find the spell to be extremely narrow. its only real use is in this matchup, even rg land doesnt have enough destruction to deal with reach/ste/ and our medium casting threats. ED has a straight up piss poor matchup with RGW aggro, which as of right now is the most common deck I can arbitrarily sit down against an unknown opponent and play against. because of that I expect to see the numbers dwindle, I mean even Cyan the maginificent doubts its viability...
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Sacred Ground is definitely a 3-of in the sideboard. I've been testing against ED and UR-Magnivore, and it improves the matchup by leaps and bounds. Against ED a resolved Sacred Ground ensures that Wildfire will not be played, and against 'Vore it just wins games as they cannot keep you from playing fat.
I have been running 1 copy each of Seed Spark, Naturalize and Primeval Light in the board instead of 3 Nattys, otherwise my board looks like BB18's. Primeval Light absolutely pisses on ED's party, as it lets you keep your Fetters in addition to removing their land-stealers, but the sorcery-speed and the 4-mana cc is often a letdown. I think I just may switch to good old 1G-removal for consistency.
@BB18: Why have you started running Wood Elves? Do they really have a place in a deck with 4 ***, 3 Wildfire and no Jitte?
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I still see Kodama's Reach as the better choice though, since the Elves don't have a Jitte to wield in this deck. An extra land seems better than a 1/1 chump-blocker. Of course I'll have to test...
How can Wildfire be bad with Slum? I can see your point with ***, but if you're able to resolve a Wildfire turn 5 with 2 Rumbling Slum on the board it's pretty much game.
- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
The beautiful thing is, you can sideboard it out just about perfectly for the Grave-Shell Scarab in that matchup.
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ED is a painful matchup, especially game 1, so I'm trying out Sacred Ground and/or Primeval Light in the sideboard to combat Wildfire and Annex/Dream Leash/Confiscate. Thoughts?
- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
ed is a pain the first game, agreed. games 2 and 3 are fairly even though considering I have access to cranial and naturalize. depending on how things shape up cranial nabbing their wildfire followed by north tree can go a good ways in sealing the deal. this is most def a match though that I would test thoroughly as the winner is ussually determined primarily on skill.
Anon - control RGW
3-4 Cranials plus 3-4 Natty-effects is probably enough post-board though, even though I'd like to shore up that matchup even further
- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Considering that your deck A)runs Yosei and B)runs about 10x as many threats as they do; I fail to see why you would ever name Wildfire and not Kokusho and then Keiga. ED never has anymore win conditions than these, and generally has 2 of each, maybe 3 Kokusho(which you would name first anyway). Wildfire is fairly irrelevant when they have no way of winning the game.
Not necessarily. The deck seems divided into two versions - one supporting more of the win conditions, and one supporting more of the "thievery" enchantments.
The version heavy on Confiscate and its ilk actually kicks this deck's ass if you don't fire off a CE naming Wildfire. Since they're running as much as 4 more spells to steal lands from you, you can often find yourself with 10+ lands in the graveyard after a Wildfire or two. Come post sideboarding, if you can quickly nuke their Wildfires and then their Kokushos, it's almost a guaranteed win.
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relax Cyan, dont get your knickers ina twist. I will be more than happy to clarify my position.
I do run about 10x as many threats as they do, which brings up an interesting point. while, they may not have many concrete win conditions, as you pointed out only kokusho and keiga, they still have dream leash. You should know as well as anyone that dream leash can compensate for the lack of win conditions, just be me playing a slum and attacking with it. since, I am a good player, I would rather not allow a deck with already so few win conditions any more, especially if they are originally cast on my side of the board.
understand why I am going to name wildfire yet? Ill keep going....
If you dont allow one of your men to dream leashed/confiscared/possibly even mimeofactured, ED has but 2 win conditions totally 4 spells... I have CaD tutoring capabilites which allows me to search up north tree. now, Im beating you in the face for 6 points a turn, because I cranialed out the only spell that gives you an out to this man. now you are in a position where you need to draw 1 of 4 cards in your deck in no more than 4 turns, or I will just beat your face.
that to me seems like the game plan.
even so, I would still name keiga before kokusho. I have enough support to recoup 10 points of lifeloss, whereas again, I dont want to give them any more threats and allow them to 2 for 1 off a 5/5 flyer.
Anon - control RGW
Out of this list by BB18, I have these cards -
2 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
Sakuras and Reachs
3 Heirarchs
2 Kodamas
4 Char
3 Faiths fetters
3 Congregation at dawn
I AM getting
1 Burning-Tree Shaman
2 Slum
2 Yosei
3 Wrath
The slums and shaman are off my friend and yoseis and wraths are easy to find, I'd rather portal ones though.
Am I getting close to finishing this deck? I'll leave out that sideboard for now cuz it will take me a helluva lot of time to assemble.
I really liek this deck, expect to see me posting on this thread alot!
Thanks for the Banner R&Doom! Thanks for the Avatar A_Passer_Bye!
Cyan: My version is playing confiscates at the moment and its doing very well.. (I steal lands more often then threats with it)
btw: One very important thing in the matchup between this deck and ED is that the ED player will need to be very carefull with what lands and what colors you keep the opponent off.. Also post SB you will need weapons against his cranials (btw I was dumb and forgot to side in my shadows..)
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agreed. However, I was making a case to Cyan considering I know that he does not run Copy enchantment, which I think is a mistake, as it is so good. He and Ixidor's dream a rather lengthy discussion regarding the spell in the ED thread recently. Though, still I stick behind wildfire being the correct spell to name. If you hit their wildfire, then the only out to kodama is by drawing a dream leash, casting it, have it resolve on a target, then draw into a copy enchantment, targeting dream leash and have that resolve. sort of a little more difficult than just resolving one wildfire or when you know I can easily just trump you entire turn's play by casting eot naturalize for 1G. I want to deal with a spell that they have 4 of versus, a spell that might not even be running, as was the case in the list that won Japan end of the years.
Ive been playing the deck yesterday vs Will and ED definitivly had the edge post sb and even after sb it still is a tough matchup. I would say that Cranial does hurt a lot and it hurt the most when it it wf. I was very reliant on wf to be able to control the deck properly.. Sure I have few win conditions but hey, I can steal urs
Here we have a gentleman, who has actually tested the matchup, who is corroborating my testimony... WF is a key spell for them, I dont know about you guys, but Im getting rid of the the spell that allows them to win the game.
Anon - control RGW
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so do I.
thats actually the best I think I have heard the matchup described thus far, good work sir. I have tested too though, and this fact was blatantly obvious to me. I just thought it was interesting that Cyan responded as though I had 6 heads, because I said that wildfire would be my first extraction target.
Anon - control RGW
For my 'knickers' to be in a twist, I would have to actually care about this, which I don't, I was merely pointing out what I felt(and still feel) is, generally, a misplay.
Dream Leash is hardly what I consider a reliable win condition. The same goes for Confiscate; considering that they can both easily be Naturalized, and I'm fairly sure that you'll be bringing in Naturalize for this matchup.
No, I think you're mis-evaluating how ED games go.
But wait, as you just said yourself, they can easily just Confiscate or Dream Leash any of these win conditions...in reality, it will be easier for them to do so, because you've removed their Wildfire, and they're bound to be sitting on a ton of mana. Besides, all of their guys are 'outs' to this man. Even if they just steal your Hierarch, that is yet another 'out'. 2x Pyroclasm is also an 'out'. It's silly to think that you're going to beat ED just by Extracting Wildfire and swinging with KotNT.
Keiga rarely wins games for ED, it's always 1-2 swings with Kokusho followed up by another Kokusho or Miren.
In reality, naming Wildfire accomplishes almost nothing vs ED in this matchup. Decks like this have so much mana acceleration that the chances of them actually keeping enough of a land advantage over you that they can afford to cast Wildfire are almost negligible. On top of all of that, considering ED and UR LD(not to mention RG LD to come soon), you should be running 3x Sacred Ground in the SB anyway, which completely nullifies Wildfire, without you having to waste an Extraction on it.
Your analysis leaves something to be desired. Throughout all the games we played, if nan kept me off of four mana, or WW, or even post-board B, he had the game in his hands, essentially. The match I *did* win against nan was because in the 3rd game I managed to fire off a well-timed Extraction on his Wildfires, and follow it up a few turns later with another Extraction on Kokusho. Even then he got me down to 6 life (he was at 3 at this point) before my 2 Wood Elves and 1 Sakura managed to play around his 2 Icy Manipulator for the win.
While I disagree with your analysis, I AM testing Sacred Ground in the board today and hoping to see some improvement.
With that said, as of current, here is my most updated list:
3 Plains
3 Mountain
5 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Temple Garden
2 Sacred Foundry
3 Overgrown Tomb
2 Stomping Ground
// Creatures
2 Yosei, the Morning Star
2 Kodama of the North Tree
3 Rumbling Slum
3 Burning-Tree Shaman
3 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Wood Elves
// Other
3 Faith's Fetters
4 Wrath of God
3 Congregation at Dawn
3 Wildfire
4 Char
3 Cranial Extraction
3 Pithing Needle
3 Grave-Shell Scarab
3 Naturalize
3 Sacred Ground
As much as I loved Reach, I've slowly been moving towards Wood Elves because the Duals simply help all that much more to make sure I'll never have color issues. The one downside is that I obviously can't even attempt to use Blood Moon as a weapon in the sideboard, but I think the advantages of using Wood Elves outweigh that.
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
Ubuntu Linux
What does Wildfire have to do with keeping you off of specific mana? It's not as though he chooses what lands you sacrifice. Keeping you off of specific mana just involves choosing the correct land to Annex/Icy, I fail to see where Wildfire comes into the picture.
So, you named Wildfire and Kokusho and still barely won. What was he damaging you with? Keiga? What if you'd named Kokusho and Keiga, what would have happened then? Or, if you named Kokusho first, and saw that he had Confiscate or Leash in play, and still hadn't played them when you Extracted again, you could have named one of them. It doesn't seem like Extracting Wildfire accomplished anything whatsoever.
Obviously it's going to be an improvement, it's just a matter of 'is it an improvement enough to warrant running'. Considering the metagame, it seems like this will be a 'yes'.
I don't really think you could use Blood Moon anyway, unless you just move away from duals, but then, you really can't run a 3 color deck w/ no duals whatsoever..it barely worked in Kamigawa Block, and really doesn't work in Standard.
Because, after a Wildfire they have the resources to Annex and **** me over. Even assuming we waited as long as turn 6 for Wildfire to hit play, I get to keep all of maybe 3-4 lands? Even Assuming I had all duals the best I can hope for is GGG,WW,RR,B (Temple Garden, Overgrown Tomb, Sacred Foundry, Stomping Ground) All they need to do is drop a single Annex and I go into topdecking mode.
Well, I do hear that they have a knack for taking YOUR critters. *shrug*
I really could care less about Keiga. More often than not, a well-placed Faith's Fetters is all I've ever needed against it when playing vs ED.
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
Ubuntu Linux
you are welcome to 'feel' whatever you would like, but the people who have actually tested the matchup, are telling you that your presumptions are incorrect. if you didnt care, then you wouldnt have posted. thats a very weak argument coming from the likes of you.
yes, I already said I would be bringing in naturalize. I agree though dream leash is not a reliable win condition, though it still allows you to run a relatively light threat base, and by light threat base I mean 4 guys... either way, that is still irrelevant because Im advocating naming their wildfire's so my kodama can stay on the board. ideally speaking Im not going to allow them to rob one of my men and crush my face with him.
we have tested the matchup and are continuing to do so. Have you?
and apparently you missed the portion where I stated I was going to be CaDing up Kodama... which outside of the copy enchantment scenario, goes the distance. I'll get to your pyroclasm theory in a moment.
cyan, I guess my point is, I dont care if they have a ton of mana. cast all the confiscates,annex,mimeofacture,dream leash you want Im still beating your face in with KotNT. the only spell I dont want to see, is the same one you were so adimant about telling Ixi was an awful spell to play. Both Nan and Ixi have said that copy enchantment has been very useful, though i dont really expect you to actually believe anyones concrete playtesting results.
I have CaD and Im a good player. I told you already Im going to be getting threats I know they cant rob. This isnt an aggro matchup so heirarch can def come out in favor of graveshell scarab, which you shouldnt be allowing to get robbed. in in the instance of heirarch I would most def sac him before they leash resolved anyway, if he was going to be an obstacle for kodama.
as far as the two pyroclasm theory;
from our very own ED thread on this forum
and then, Cyan's right hand man, GPiledriver;
sir , do you still want to tell me that double pyroclasm is a viable option to dealing with kodama? I think that is more than enough evidence right there to refute said claim.
In terms of sacred ground, I find the spell to be extremely narrow. its only real use is in this matchup, even rg land doesnt have enough destruction to deal with reach/ste/ and our medium casting threats. ED has a straight up piss poor matchup with RGW aggro, which as of right now is the most common deck I can arbitrarily sit down against an unknown opponent and play against. because of that I expect to see the numbers dwindle, I mean even Cyan the maginificent doubts its viability...
Anon - control RGW
I have been running 1 copy each of Seed Spark, Naturalize and Primeval Light in the board instead of 3 Nattys, otherwise my board looks like BB18's. Primeval Light absolutely pisses on ED's party, as it lets you keep your Fetters in addition to removing their land-stealers, but the sorcery-speed and the 4-mana cc is often a letdown. I think I just may switch to good old 1G-removal for consistency.
@BB18: Why have you started running Wood Elves? Do they really have a place in a deck with 4 ***, 3 Wildfire and no Jitte?
- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Because, IMO, there is no better land search that can actually grab your dual lands.
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
Ubuntu Linux
I'm currently running this manabase: 4 Temple Garden, 3 Sacred Foundry, 3 Stomping Ground, 2 Overgrown Tomb, 1 Tendo Ice Bridge, 4 Forest, 3 Mountain, 3 Plains, 1 Swamp. With 4 STE's and 3 Reach, I have not yet been colour-screwed.
- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Seems sort of counterintuitive to my mind - which is why I've been playing with the Elves.
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
Ubuntu Linux