@IBTG i do remember when a former member named Apos was on here and you and him were arguing, you said that decks shouldn't be on the competetive side if they haven't shown results and you pointed out that most that he said were bad had top 8's, but earlier you said that this hasn't shown results or top 8ed much at all, i know you have done a lot of testing with this, and that you aparently love this deck, but it hasn't shown results, and until it does i refuse to believe that this is a competetive deck.
thanks a lot everyone.
Pretty hard to top8 with cards that aren't legal yet eh?
Both IBTG and BB18 have provided testing results. While the numbers are still few, the deck has been putting up good numbers. They've met the requirements for the competitive forum so I don't see any reason why that the deck doesn't belong.
I've been playtesting against a more aggro version of this deck and I'd have to say it is tough. All of the creatures have great P/T to CC ratios, most of the spells are super efficent, netting you either card advanage or a massive effect for low cost. I don't see what the problem with the deck is, I'd like to see someone who is arguing against this build tell everyone what's wrong with it. Even if you just have a feeling that it would have bad matchups against something, tell everyone why.
This deck has an actual good chance against both aggro and control(unlike traditional FF) and can destroy both Glare and CMU as both are removal light and dependent on activated abilities. It can stand toe to toe with aggro do to the elephant, centaur, STE, Kodama, and the removal.
@BB18 and IBTG. I'm looking forward to playing this deck and glad you guys have put the time, effort, and testing to make a deck that looks to have great matchups across the board. Hats off to you guys, you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
Not that I'm calling your list solid by any means (I had time to spare for about 5 games with it), but Putrefy would be a better choice than Nekrataal by miles.
not to be too critical... but i dont believe any sort of removal is going to work in the most part against either scarab or kagemaro... but mainly scarab. i'm not saying its a better choice than putrefy, because it isn't... if you are running green AND black, why not run the best removal card we have at our disposal.
Quote from Veserius »
I don't see what the problem with the deck is, I'd like to see someone who is arguing against this build tell everyone what's wrong with it. Even if you just have a feeling that it would have bad matchups against something, tell everyone why.
i'm not even sure if its so many people are posting against the build itself, rather than against the attitude in the posts. it just seems to me like there could be a more pleasant and polite way to provide testing results rather than the elitist attitude that has been plagued on this thread (and forum) lately by a handful of posters. its no fun to read, and takes away a lot of the credibility of the source.
I'm not trying to be rude, but, honestly. What matchup would you expect to win with that deck? You're running Confidant, plus 10+ spells with a CMC of 4+. You're running 3 basic land, and Sakura Tribe Elder, with 14 or something duals, but not Farseek.
You completely ignored what everyone said about Sunforger(not surprisingly).
You're not even running Wrath. Yet, you're running Ghost Council, which really isn't a good card at all. And why would you run Mortify and Nekkrataal, but, not Putrefy?
It's hard to believe that you actually put any real effort or testing into that decklist, because I"m confident that every good deck in the format would walk all over it. I won't even get into how much Blood Moon, which people are starting to MD now, scoops you.
but i dont believe any sort of removal is going to work in the most part against either scarab or kagemaro...
no, youre right, however I think you are kind of missing what BB18 is saying. Obviously targeted removal is not the best solution to these men, but sort of like the boy scouts you need to; "be prepared." a 6/6 kagemaro, with the possibilty of shizo on the board thats a pretty substantial threat to let go unnoticed. you are in top deck mode, frantically trying to find an answer. which would you rather draw: mr. frownface in nekrataal or putrefy? obv, the putrefy. putrefy will keep kagemaro off the board for at list a critical turn or two, until they recurr Jabba the hut, and the same is true for graveshell, keep him off the board for a turn, make them lose a draw. this deck is all about stabilization and the casting, and keeping the beats coming at a furious pace. I mean a sound soultion to both those men would be, eot putrefy, mana phase wildfire, destroy their land so they cant cast either problem man. nekratall, wont even allow you that, and to top it off it has awful synergy with confidant. I see he is in alfred's list just to pick up jitte and forger, which seem like wasted slots in his deck
Quote from DHermit »
i'm not even sure if its so many people are posting against the build itself, rather than against the attitude in the posts. it just seems to me like there could be a more pleasant and polite way to provide testing results rather than the elitist attitude that has been plagued on this thread (and forum) lately by a handful of posters. its no fun to read, and takes away a lot of the credibility of the source.
In fairness though, there is ussually a logical explanation for every event that happens on these boards. tell me sir, how would you feel if you put forth a tremendous amount of work in testing and fine tuning a list, only to have some randoms who clearly havent tested at all, say their deck is better? thats just really damn insulting. I mean, that would sort of be like me telling einstein his theory of relativity is garbage because I have one of my own, I havent tested it nor do I have any relative information to substantiate my claim, but I assure its better, so you should just scrap that whole E=MC2 nonsense... see, how assanine that is? Im sharing a deck with you guys, come on. clearly, I know how to play the game, and I am a solid deck builder. dont insult my intelligence or integrity. give my results the respect they deserve, be intelligent and non argumentative and there will be no issue. you would develop an attitude, if you knew you were good but get taking garbage people who clearly are less advanced in their knowledge of deck building.
Quote from Zulo »
I also tested from IBTG and Will's side. I couldn't find a list, so I composed what I thought would be appropriate (BTS, KNorth, Slum etc) and ran it through the gauntlet. I too came to the conclusion that this version is better in the metagame.
there should be a few lists a page back or so. thanks for the testing though, its appreciated.
Quote from Cyan »
Wow, Alfred. That decklist is really something.
Quote from Cyan »
Something atrocious.
ouch....
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In IBTG we trust
Quote from Veserius »
Hats off to [BB18 & IBTG], you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
not to be too critical... but i dont believe any sort of removal is going to work in the most part against either scarab or kagemaro... but mainly scarab. i'm not saying its a better choice than putrefy, because it isn't... if you are running green AND black, why not run the best removal card we have at our disposal.
I digress that the two cards you mentioned are damn near impossible to outright kill.
My point was more along the lines of, even if they're completely tapped out and you had the chance to nuke 'em, with Nekrataal, you can't.
Wow, Alfred. That decklist is really something.
Something atrocious.
Were it not for the connotations involved and my inherent love of my heterosexualness, I'd likely be saying something along the lines of "I love you" right about now.
i'm not even sure if its so many people are posting against the build itself, rather than against the attitude in the posts. it just seems to me like there could be a more pleasant and polite way to provide testing results rather than the elitist attitude that has been plagued on this thread (and forum) lately by a handful of posters. its no fun to read, and takes away a lot of the credibility of the source.
In these sort of discussions tensions can get VERY high. Especially when one side is arguing with very much skewed arguments about a format that is 165 cards shy of where we currently stand, while the other side is forced to defend their valid ideas against a sense of ideology that is akin to the Evolution vs. Creatonism debate.
I move to move (oh jeez I'm funny) discussion of IBTG and BB18's new deck out of this thread and into another one, so that the guys who still want to stick around and play with their Sunforger can do so. The new deck isn't very FF anyway...
In my testing, the new deck has performed way better than FF against control, while still keeping its game against aggro, and performing surprisingly(?) well against Ghazi-Glare. And that's more than good enough to persuade me.
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I'm not trying to be rude, but, honestly. What matchup would you expect to win with that deck? You're running Confidant, plus 10+ spells with a CMC of 4+. You're running 3 basic land, and Sakura Tribe Elder, with 14 or something duals, but not Farseek.
You completely ignored what everyone said about Sunforger(not surprisingly).
You're not even running Wrath. Yet, you're running Ghost Council, which really isn't a good card at all. And why would you run Mortify and Nekkrataal, but, not Putrefy?
It's hard to believe that you actually put any real effort or testing into that decklist, because I"m confident that every good deck in the format would walk all over it. I won't even get into how much Blood Moon, which people are starting to MD now, scoops you.
I don't know what to say but ask if you even read my decklist? You mention that I run threats of 4+, when the curve tops out at 4. You say that I'm running 3 basic lands, but I'm actually running 4. And there are 5 maindeck ways to deal with Bloodmoon, not to mention Sunforger or the card drawing of Confidant.
Nekraatal is a MD choice due to his ability to hold Jittes and Sunforgers, his ability to block creatures and sacrifice himself to Ghost Council. As for Ghost Council being terrible, I would have to disagree completely, his ability to win you games is incredible, as he is extremely difficult to kill.
ok dark confidant in this deck, is going to lose you games. it doesnt matter if your curve "tops out at 4"
you still have 11 spells that cost 4 mana...turning over just one negates the bonus life from heirarch. not to mention 9 more spells that cost 3. what if the game goes into the later turns, or if it stalls?? your going to have to hope to draw a removal spell to take him out yourself?
id be interested to know if you had any numbers for how much life you usually lose from bob..... i play him in my UB aggro. and i have only 7 spells that cost 3 mana, everything else is under. And he still makes me mad sometimes, even with the low curve.
oh one other point...i think IBTG/BB18's list should stay...its more like the original than alfreds new list, which has added like 10 black cards. at least IBTG/BB18's list is still RGW, like the original.
I don't know what to say but ask if you even read my decklist? You mention that I run threats of 4+, when the curve tops out at 4. You say that I'm running 3 basic lands, but I'm actually running 4. And there are 5 maindeck ways to deal with Bloodmoon, not to mention Sunforger or the card drawing of Confidant.
Oh, okay, 4 basic land. Not 3. That changes everything. You'll never be able to cast any of those MD ways of dealing with Blood Moon, because your chance of having a basic Plains or Forest is astronomically low. And it doesn't matter if your curve tops out at 4, 12 cards in your deck cost 4 mana. Confidant will kill you practically every time you play him.
Nekraatal is a MD choice due to his ability to hold Jittes and Sunforgers, his ability to block creatures and sacrifice himself to Ghost Council. As for Ghost Council being terrible, I would have to disagree completely, his ability to win you games is incredible, as he is extremely difficult to kill.
A 4/4 with no combat-relevant evasion doesn't win games. Yeah, he's difficult to kill, sometimes. That doesn't make him right for this deck. If you were building some BW Control deck, running him and Nekraatal would be understandable. But, in this deck, they are bad choices. Along with alot of your deck.
Oh, okay, 4 basic land. Not 3. That changes everything. You'll never be able to cast any of those MD ways of dealing with Blood Moon, because your chance of having a basic Plains or Forest is astronomically low. And it doesn't matter if your curve tops out at 4, 12 cards in your deck cost 4 mana. Confidant will kill you practically every time you play him.
#1. There are 11 cards in the deck that have a CC of 4, not 12. Stop trying to constantly misrepresent the actual figures of my decklist, because I don't know if this is part of your strategy, to distort the truth in a minor fashion, then ridicule me afterwards for pointing it out.
As for Confidant killing you every time you play him, that is totally untrue. Not only do four of the 4 mana cards give you back the life that you lost, you have 9 other cards like Jitte, Lightning Helix and Ghost Council that give you life back as well. On top of this, the deck runs 25 lands, which lose you 0 life everytime you flip them, and when almost half of the cards you have in the deck cost you no life, and only 11 that cost you 4, this isn't a recipe for disaster like you keep saying it is. I would rather have a 4/4 for 4 in my hand and gain no life, rather than having a 4/4 for 4 that gains me life in my library.
Also, I think that I probably will be trying out Putrify. Perhaps the token generation will make up for the loss of the body.
Dark Confidant is really, really, really bad for this deck :(. Not only is he going to make it so much easier for Tron to Blaze in your face, it means that playing any of the numerous Land disruption/Permission-esque type decks around (ED, UR Tron, MUC/b) will be the death of you, fairly fast.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
Dude, it doesnt matter that you have 4 basic lands and not 3, or that you only run 11 CMC4 spells instead of 12. The point is that you seriously need to reconsider your deck. What happens when you have nothing but sacred foundry's and Vitu-Ghazi's with mortify, nekrataal, and bob in your hand(or something of the sort) each time you try to mulligan. You will be on turn 4 with nothing in play. I know that is a bit eggaterated(god im sorry), but it seems your deck is totaly inconsistent.
Sure, bob may not kill you all the time, but how many games out of your "testing" did he not kill you. You only dont die if you manage to topdeck some lifegain that is the colors of the lands you have out. I also completely agree about all the sunforger stuff, but I think this has gone a bit past that.
Dark Confidant is actually one of the better cards to resolve in a permission based or LD matchup, simply because you will be drawing more threats that they must counter, and you will be drawing more land with which to withstand Land Destruction. If you playtest the deck, you will find that the deck is very consistant mana-wise, which is one of the first things that I test extensively before going with a certain list. With the high amount of duals in the manabase, I have never had problems having the correct mana. I still think that Sunforger still has a place in the metagame, and I think that my build is the correct way of going about building it.
Dark Confidant is actually one of the better cards to resolve in a permission based or LD matchup, simply because you will be drawing more threats that they must counter, and you will be drawing more land with which to withstand Land Destruction. If you playtest the deck, you will find that the deck is very consistant mana-wise, which is one of the first things that I test extensively before going with a certain list. With the high amount of duals in the manabase, I have never had problems having the correct mana. I still think that Sunforger still has a place in the metagame, and I think that my build is the correct way of going about building it.
Sure. You'll do that in an IDEAL situation.
Most of the time, while you're just trying to stabilize your mana, they're plopping down Blood Moon while nuking your lands, all the while building up to the increasingly easier Blaze for the win because your own Dark Confidant is only lowering your life total for them.
Dark Confidant is actually one of the better cards to resolve in a permission based or LD matchup, simply because you will be drawing more threats that they must counter, and you will be drawing more land with which to withstand Land Destruction.
That's for the most part untrue. While it is good because you are drawing more land, not being able to hit the 4 mark for 2-3 turns on average is about the worst thing for this deck to be doing. Not only will it mean you will be starting out on a really low life, it will also mean that the opposing players mana base is already up. It doesn't help much if you get 4 mana for a Hierarch by the time Meloku/Magnivore is online.
If you playtest the deck, you will find that the deck is very consistant mana-wise, which is one of the first things that I test extensively before going with a certain list.
Sadly, consistancy is not the issue at hand. Temo and normla board development is. Not only will you still lose to the Annex/Leash, then Wildfire setup, you will be at a fairly low life, with a hand full of 3-4cc cards. Not someting a deck like this wants to be doing.
Besides, UR's Land disruption comes up right after Bob comes online, and continues for another 3-4 turns. Like I said, only having 2 mana available to you with a hand full of fat and a low life is much harder for this deck to come back from when compared to any of the other top tiered decks.
I also think you need to re-evluate what a 'threat to you and what a threat really is to a MUC/b or a Tron player is. From your list, I see only 6 real 'threats.' That is, Hierarch and the Ghost Council. The blue permission player will most certaintly focus on those, and let you keep your Darkie so they can swing in one hit via Meloku or even Blazing to zero.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
I think that Sunforger and Umezawa's Jitte are also cards that permission type decks have to worry about as well. Not to mention the fact that Dark Confidant can attack and be equipped. The fact that Vitu-Ghazi is uncounterable and you can equip the saprolings that it creates, makes Jitte and Sunforger both cards that URza and Jushi control will have to deal with in one way or another.
The thing about ED, is that BB18 and IBTG are running a higher curve, and also running Wildfire, which I still think is a poor card to run against ED. I don't see how they could possibly more well equiped to deal with that deck than I would be. The fact that Bob draws you cards for free, a lot of which will be land means that you can play and equip Jitte, or cast Hierarch, or Sunforger.
As for Magnivore and Meloku, this deck runs a substantial amount of removal, and I find it highly unprobable that these threats will be able to get through.
Quote from BB18 »
Sure. You'll do that in an IDEAL situation.
Most of the time, while you're just trying to stabilize your mana, they're plopping down Blood Moon while nuking your lands, all the while building up to the increasingly easier Blaze for the win because your own Dark Confidant is only lowering your life total for them.
What deck runs Blood Moon AND Blaze in it? I would certainly hope that URza players wouldn't be playing this card, because it stops them from using Tron. I have also been searching for ANY deck that has both Blaze and Blood Moon in it, but have come up with nothing.
If I do opt to go with Putrify in the deck over Nekrataal, this will bring the mana count even further down. From my testing I have nothing but positive things to say about Dark Confidant, and due to the large amount of life gain in the deck, I haven't been killed by him once. Drawing a removal spell a turn earlier that you would have saves far more life than if you were to get it a few turns later.
4/4 guys with no evasion really aren't threats to Jushi Control anyway. The only legitimate 'threat' in this deck in that match is Jitte. Ghost Council is particularly uninspiring when Jushi runs Needle anyway.
The point, Alfred, is that you took a deck that easily beat aggro, but never beat control, and turned into a deck that will never win a match. We are trying to explain this to you, and explain why, but, you're obviously not listening, which isn't surprising. But seriously, it's everyone vs. you, do you honestly think that you're right?
If you would like for me to show you exactly how much your deck would get thrashed by ANY good deck, just IM me sometimes and we'll load up MWS and you'll see for yourself that what we are saying is absolutely accurate.
The 4 land D in the sideboard go in against URza. The Naturalize are for Glare, and Emminent Domain, and the Congreg./Yosei/Rumbling come in too, as does Sacred Ground. I think the wildfire is too situational and replaced it with More beats.
I agree with Cyan and them although I think they are being a bit too condescending about this whole thing. But I still agree.
But I do ask you to try and test the deck out online and see what happens. I havn't tested your list out, so I can't say anything. But based on speculation it looks like between the shocklands and Dark Confidant dealing over 2 damage a turn to you, you are going to have a hard time winning.
You dont have to listen to us if you think we are wrong. I mean, if anything its good that we think the deck is crap. Think about it, we think its crap, so we are obviously not going to take it to PTQ. You on the other hand have tested it and found that it wins 50% of all its matched and take it to the PTQ and win first and then bring this thread back up and say I told you so.
Theres no point in arguing this. If someone doesn't want to be convinced just prove it to them by winning. There is no point posting your deck and bragging that its the best.
On the other hand, if you think the deck needs work and thats why you are posting it, listen to the people who are trying to give you advice. At the same time, you people who are giving him advice should probably not do it in a tone that makes it sound like you think he's a stupid n00b. He's probably not going to take your advice if you do that (which he hasn't).
So anyways... about the deck. Basically take out black and add in good cards and you probably solve the problem right there.
The 4 land D in the sideboard go in against URza. The Naturalize are for Glare, and Emminent Domain, and the Congreg./Yosei/Rumbling come in too, as does Sacred Ground. I think the wildfire is too situational and replaced it with More beats.
Opinions?
Kudos for rehashing a list that IBTG and I have only been supporting for the last 70-some odd posts.
I DO hear that reading the thread is some neat stuff.
Kudos for rehashing a list that IBTG and I have only been supporting for the last 70-some odd posts.
I DO hear that reading the thread is some neat stuff.
He has removed the Wildfires, and provides one argument for doing so. Removing 3 or 4 Wildfires from your lists will make the deck function a bit differently.
I too find Wildfire somewhat situational, since I often draw into it with 4-toughness men (Shaman, Hierarch, North Tree) on the board already. On the other hand, when you cast Wildfire you will way more often than not rebuild faster than your opponent does and win with cheap fat.
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A bit of a re-done build. The Junktrollers are decent blockers, plus they can recur any spell, giving an unlimited haze lock among other things when used with Sunforgers.
ok, I suppose he switched the numbers around enough to merit at least slight discussion;
Devouring Light Im not a huge fan of this spell right now. It can hit dragons, which is useful but will and I have cranial coming out of the board. Basically, any man that is worth hitting with devouring light; Kokusho/Keiga/Yosei, is going to be named just the same with cranial. Id much rather bring in 3 spells from my board and with one casting, have a signifcant chunk of my worries alleviated. not to mention, it is another WW casting spell.
In our list we have 4x wrath,3x wildfire,3x fetters. there arent too many aggro decks that I have come across yet that can deal with that sort of hate. not to mention, char knocks a large amount of men offline in this format aswell.
2 congregation seems fine, I have been running that since monday, and havent had any issues. I will say though, this spell has the potential to win games.
if your running wrath, you are running 4 of them.
wildfire has always been a situation specific card in nature. I mean, you are only going to do it when it is beneficial to you. I think the reason this deck is good is because of its ability to stabilize the board from a daunting position and swing things into your favor.
Playing this deck is alot like driving a car. It has different gears, that you shift back and forth from to ensure optimal performance. yesterday, I was having a discussion with a member of my team. as he had the least amount of testing against it so far, we were going over the finer points and he just came right out and said; "isnt that slow?" I had to think about it for a second, and ultimately I just said; "are you mad?" this deck is aggro control in probably its most pure form. turn 2 sakura means turn 3 slumb or heirarch, and I dont find that particullary slow, BTS could also make an appearance. then alternatively, you can begin your pre wildfire mana stockpile if you dont get the fast aggro start, sit back reach, and still have wrath and fetter's as a plan b. Im doing some mana tweaking and testing and interesting possible change in the deck right now that is very conducive to wildfire. I also like the fact that in this format wildfire is as good as wrath's 5,6 and 7. I mean, the spell basically scoops aggro decks and is very solid against non-U control, with the ample supportive lifegain via heirarch and fetter's you will usually lve long enough to cast it.
aod, the board looks a little, how should I say;generic to me. there is no versatility in it, if your not playing a very specific number of decks your sb is rather narrow. I also dislike the CaD yosei/slum in the board, it seems like those slots are just filler.
4 Wrath and Char in addition to 3 Wildfire and Fetters makes the deck aggro-proof, true. And thankfully it absolutely rapes Ghazi-Glare, a deck I strongly dislike...
I like Wildfire as much as the next guy, but it's often a dead card in the control matchups, and I'm siding it out more often than not in those games.
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Pretty hard to top8 with cards that aren't legal yet eh?
Both IBTG and BB18 have provided testing results. While the numbers are still few, the deck has been putting up good numbers. They've met the requirements for the competitive forum so I don't see any reason why that the deck doesn't belong.
I've been playtesting against a more aggro version of this deck and I'd have to say it is tough. All of the creatures have great P/T to CC ratios, most of the spells are super efficent, netting you either card advanage or a massive effect for low cost. I don't see what the problem with the deck is, I'd like to see someone who is arguing against this build tell everyone what's wrong with it. Even if you just have a feeling that it would have bad matchups against something, tell everyone why.
This deck has an actual good chance against both aggro and control(unlike traditional FF) and can destroy both Glare and CMU as both are removal light and dependent on activated abilities. It can stand toe to toe with aggro do to the elephant, centaur, STE, Kodama, and the removal.
@BB18 and IBTG. I'm looking forward to playing this deck and glad you guys have put the time, effort, and testing to make a deck that looks to have great matchups across the board. Hats off to you guys, you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
not to be too critical... but i dont believe any sort of removal is going to work in the most part against either scarab or kagemaro... but mainly scarab. i'm not saying its a better choice than putrefy, because it isn't... if you are running green AND black, why not run the best removal card we have at our disposal.
i'm not even sure if its so many people are posting against the build itself, rather than against the attitude in the posts. it just seems to me like there could be a more pleasant and polite way to provide testing results rather than the elitist attitude that has been plagued on this thread (and forum) lately by a handful of posters. its no fun to read, and takes away a lot of the credibility of the source.
-me
Something atrocious.
I'm not trying to be rude, but, honestly. What matchup would you expect to win with that deck? You're running Confidant, plus 10+ spells with a CMC of 4+. You're running 3 basic land, and Sakura Tribe Elder, with 14 or something duals, but not Farseek.
You completely ignored what everyone said about Sunforger(not surprisingly).
You're not even running Wrath. Yet, you're running Ghost Council, which really isn't a good card at all. And why would you run Mortify and Nekkrataal, but, not Putrefy?
It's hard to believe that you actually put any real effort or testing into that decklist, because I"m confident that every good deck in the format would walk all over it. I won't even get into how much Blood Moon, which people are starting to MD now, scoops you.
no, youre right, however I think you are kind of missing what BB18 is saying. Obviously targeted removal is not the best solution to these men, but sort of like the boy scouts you need to; "be prepared." a 6/6 kagemaro, with the possibilty of shizo on the board thats a pretty substantial threat to let go unnoticed. you are in top deck mode, frantically trying to find an answer. which would you rather draw: mr. frownface in nekrataal or putrefy? obv, the putrefy. putrefy will keep kagemaro off the board for at list a critical turn or two, until they recurr Jabba the hut, and the same is true for graveshell, keep him off the board for a turn, make them lose a draw. this deck is all about stabilization and the casting, and keeping the beats coming at a furious pace. I mean a sound soultion to both those men would be, eot putrefy, mana phase wildfire, destroy their land so they cant cast either problem man. nekratall, wont even allow you that, and to top it off it has awful synergy with confidant. I see he is in alfred's list just to pick up jitte and forger, which seem like wasted slots in his deck
In fairness though, there is ussually a logical explanation for every event that happens on these boards. tell me sir, how would you feel if you put forth a tremendous amount of work in testing and fine tuning a list, only to have some randoms who clearly havent tested at all, say their deck is better? thats just really damn insulting. I mean, that would sort of be like me telling einstein his theory of relativity is garbage because I have one of my own, I havent tested it nor do I have any relative information to substantiate my claim, but I assure its better, so you should just scrap that whole E=MC2 nonsense... see, how assanine that is? Im sharing a deck with you guys, come on. clearly, I know how to play the game, and I am a solid deck builder. dont insult my intelligence or integrity. give my results the respect they deserve, be intelligent and non argumentative and there will be no issue. you would develop an attitude, if you knew you were good but get taking garbage people who clearly are less advanced in their knowledge of deck building.
there should be a few lists a page back or so. thanks for the testing though, its appreciated.
ouch....
Anon - control RGW
I digress that the two cards you mentioned are damn near impossible to outright kill.
My point was more along the lines of, even if they're completely tapped out and you had the chance to nuke 'em, with Nekrataal, you can't.
Were it not for the connotations involved and my inherent love of my heterosexualness, I'd likely be saying something along the lines of "I love you" right about now.
In these sort of discussions tensions can get VERY high. Especially when one side is arguing with very much skewed arguments about a format that is 165 cards shy of where we currently stand, while the other side is forced to defend their valid ideas against a sense of ideology that is akin to the Evolution vs. Creatonism debate.
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
Ubuntu Linux
In my testing, the new deck has performed way better than FF against control, while still keeping its game against aggro, and performing surprisingly(?) well against Ghazi-Glare. And that's more than good enough to persuade me.
- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
I don't know what to say but ask if you even read my decklist? You mention that I run threats of 4+, when the curve tops out at 4. You say that I'm running 3 basic lands, but I'm actually running 4. And there are 5 maindeck ways to deal with Bloodmoon, not to mention Sunforger or the card drawing of Confidant.
Nekraatal is a MD choice due to his ability to hold Jittes and Sunforgers, his ability to block creatures and sacrifice himself to Ghost Council. As for Ghost Council being terrible, I would have to disagree completely, his ability to win you games is incredible, as he is extremely difficult to kill.
you still have 11 spells that cost 4 mana...turning over just one negates the bonus life from heirarch. not to mention 9 more spells that cost 3. what if the game goes into the later turns, or if it stalls?? your going to have to hope to draw a removal spell to take him out yourself?
id be interested to know if you had any numbers for how much life you usually lose from bob..... i play him in my UB aggro. and i have only 7 spells that cost 3 mana, everything else is under. And he still makes me mad sometimes, even with the low curve.
oh one other point...i think IBTG/BB18's list should stay...its more like the original than alfreds new list, which has added like 10 black cards. at least IBTG/BB18's list is still RGW, like the original.
Banner by Alex.
MEGAMATT
Oh, okay, 4 basic land. Not 3. That changes everything.
A 4/4 with no combat-relevant evasion doesn't win games. Yeah, he's difficult to kill, sometimes. That doesn't make him right for this deck. If you were building some BW Control deck, running him and Nekraatal would be understandable. But, in this deck, they are bad choices. Along with alot of your deck.
#1. There are 11 cards in the deck that have a CC of 4, not 12. Stop trying to constantly misrepresent the actual figures of my decklist, because I don't know if this is part of your strategy, to distort the truth in a minor fashion, then ridicule me afterwards for pointing it out.
As for Confidant killing you every time you play him, that is totally untrue. Not only do four of the 4 mana cards give you back the life that you lost, you have 9 other cards like Jitte, Lightning Helix and Ghost Council that give you life back as well. On top of this, the deck runs 25 lands, which lose you 0 life everytime you flip them, and when almost half of the cards you have in the deck cost you no life, and only 11 that cost you 4, this isn't a recipe for disaster like you keep saying it is. I would rather have a 4/4 for 4 in my hand and gain no life, rather than having a 4/4 for 4 that gains me life in my library.
Also, I think that I probably will be trying out Putrify. Perhaps the token generation will make up for the loss of the body.
Sure, bob may not kill you all the time, but how many games out of your "testing" did he not kill you. You only dont die if you manage to topdeck some lifegain that is the colors of the lands you have out. I also completely agree about all the sunforger stuff, but I think this has gone a bit past that.
Sure. You'll do that in an IDEAL situation.
Most of the time, while you're just trying to stabilize your mana, they're plopping down Blood Moon while nuking your lands, all the while building up to the increasingly easier Blaze for the win because your own Dark Confidant is only lowering your life total for them.
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
Ubuntu Linux
That's for the most part untrue. While it is good because you are drawing more land, not being able to hit the 4 mark for 2-3 turns on average is about the worst thing for this deck to be doing. Not only will it mean you will be starting out on a really low life, it will also mean that the opposing players mana base is already up. It doesn't help much if you get 4 mana for a Hierarch by the time Meloku/Magnivore is online.
Sadly, consistancy is not the issue at hand. Temo and normla board development is. Not only will you still lose to the Annex/Leash, then Wildfire setup, you will be at a fairly low life, with a hand full of 3-4cc cards. Not someting a deck like this wants to be doing.
Besides, UR's Land disruption comes up right after Bob comes online, and continues for another 3-4 turns. Like I said, only having 2 mana available to you with a hand full of fat and a low life is much harder for this deck to come back from when compared to any of the other top tiered decks.
I also think you need to re-evluate what a 'threat to you and what a threat really is to a MUC/b or a Tron player is. From your list, I see only 6 real 'threats.' That is, Hierarch and the Ghost Council. The blue permission player will most certaintly focus on those, and let you keep your Darkie so they can swing in one hit via Meloku or even Blazing to zero.
The thing about ED, is that BB18 and IBTG are running a higher curve, and also running Wildfire, which I still think is a poor card to run against ED. I don't see how they could possibly more well equiped to deal with that deck than I would be. The fact that Bob draws you cards for free, a lot of which will be land means that you can play and equip Jitte, or cast Hierarch, or Sunforger.
As for Magnivore and Meloku, this deck runs a substantial amount of removal, and I find it highly unprobable that these threats will be able to get through.
What deck runs Blood Moon AND Blaze in it? I would certainly hope that URza players wouldn't be playing this card, because it stops them from using Tron. I have also been searching for ANY deck that has both Blaze and Blood Moon in it, but have come up with nothing.
If I do opt to go with Putrify in the deck over Nekrataal, this will bring the mana count even further down. From my testing I have nothing but positive things to say about Dark Confidant, and due to the large amount of life gain in the deck, I haven't been killed by him once. Drawing a removal spell a turn earlier that you would have saves far more life than if you were to get it a few turns later.
The point, Alfred, is that you took a deck that easily beat aggro, but never beat control, and turned into a deck that will never win a match. We are trying to explain this to you, and explain why, but, you're obviously not listening, which isn't surprising. But seriously, it's everyone vs. you, do you honestly think that you're right?
If you would like for me to show you exactly how much your deck would get thrashed by ANY good deck, just IM me sometimes and we'll load up MWS and you'll see for yourself that what we are saying is absolutely accurate.
4 Stomping Grounds
4 Forest
3 Plains
3 Mountain
2 Karplusan Forest
2 Brushland
2 Sacred Foundry
3 Rumbling Slum
3 Yosei, the Morning Star
3 Kodama of the North Tree
3 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Faith's Fetters
2 Devouring Light
3 Wrath of God
4 Char
3 Kodama's Reach Other - 2
2 Congregation at Dawn
4 Naturalize
4 Sacred Ground
1 Congregation at Dawn
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Rumbling Slum
The 4 land D in the sideboard go in against URza. The Naturalize are for Glare, and Emminent Domain, and the Congreg./Yosei/Rumbling come in too, as does Sacred Ground. I think the wildfire is too situational and replaced it with More beats.
Opinions?
But I do ask you to try and test the deck out online and see what happens. I havn't tested your list out, so I can't say anything. But based on speculation it looks like between the shocklands and Dark Confidant dealing over 2 damage a turn to you, you are going to have a hard time winning.
You dont have to listen to us if you think we are wrong. I mean, if anything its good that we think the deck is crap. Think about it, we think its crap, so we are obviously not going to take it to PTQ. You on the other hand have tested it and found that it wins 50% of all its matched and take it to the PTQ and win first and then bring this thread back up and say I told you so.
Theres no point in arguing this. If someone doesn't want to be convinced just prove it to them by winning. There is no point posting your deck and bragging that its the best.
On the other hand, if you think the deck needs work and thats why you are posting it, listen to the people who are trying to give you advice. At the same time, you people who are giving him advice should probably not do it in a tone that makes it sound like you think he's a stupid n00b. He's probably not going to take your advice if you do that (which he hasn't).
So anyways... about the deck. Basically take out black and add in good cards and you probably solve the problem right there.
Kudos for rehashing a list that IBTG and I have only been supporting for the last 70-some odd posts.
I DO hear that reading the thread is some neat stuff.
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
Ubuntu Linux
He has removed the Wildfires, and provides one argument for doing so. Removing 3 or 4 Wildfires from your lists will make the deck function a bit differently.
I too find Wildfire somewhat situational, since I often draw into it with 4-toughness men (Shaman, Hierarch, North Tree) on the board already. On the other hand, when you cast Wildfire you will way more often than not rebuild faster than your opponent does and win with cheap fat.
- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
4 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Mountain
4 Forest
3 Plains
4 Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
1 Ethereal Haze
3 Sunforger
1 Seed Spark
1 Hidetsugu's Second Rite
3 Devouring Light
4 Wrath of God
4 Lightning Helix
3 Kodama's Reach
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Volcanic Hammer
1 Scour
3 Pyroclasm
1 Tempest of Light
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ghostway
A bit of a re-done build. The Junktrollers are decent blockers, plus they can recur any spell, giving an unlimited haze lock among other things when used with Sunforgers.
Devouring Light
Im not a huge fan of this spell right now. It can hit dragons, which is useful but will and I have cranial coming out of the board. Basically, any man that is worth hitting with devouring light; Kokusho/Keiga/Yosei, is going to be named just the same with cranial. Id much rather bring in 3 spells from my board and with one casting, have a signifcant chunk of my worries alleviated. not to mention, it is another WW casting spell.
In our list we have 4x wrath,3x wildfire,3x fetters. there arent too many aggro decks that I have come across yet that can deal with that sort of hate. not to mention, char knocks a large amount of men offline in this format aswell.
2 congregation seems fine, I have been running that since monday, and havent had any issues. I will say though, this spell has the potential to win games.
if your running wrath, you are running 4 of them.
wildfire has always been a situation specific card in nature. I mean, you are only going to do it when it is beneficial to you. I think the reason this deck is good is because of its ability to stabilize the board from a daunting position and swing things into your favor.
Playing this deck is alot like driving a car. It has different gears, that you shift back and forth from to ensure optimal performance. yesterday, I was having a discussion with a member of my team. as he had the least amount of testing against it so far, we were going over the finer points and he just came right out and said; "isnt that slow?"
I had to think about it for a second, and ultimately I just said; "are you mad?" this deck is aggro control in probably its most pure form. turn 2 sakura means turn 3 slumb or heirarch, and I dont find that particullary slow, BTS could also make an appearance. then alternatively, you can begin your pre wildfire mana stockpile if you dont get the fast aggro start, sit back reach, and still have wrath and fetter's as a plan b. Im doing some mana tweaking and testing and interesting possible change in the deck right now that is very conducive to wildfire. I also like the fact that in this format wildfire is as good as wrath's 5,6 and 7. I mean, the spell basically scoops aggro decks and is very solid against non-U control, with the ample supportive lifegain via heirarch and fetter's you will usually lve long enough to cast it.
aod, the board looks a little, how should I say;generic to me. there is no versatility in it, if your not playing a very specific number of decks your sb is rather narrow. I also dislike the CaD yosei/slum in the board, it seems like those slots are just filler.
Anon - control RGW
I like Wildfire as much as the next guy, but it's often a dead card in the control matchups, and I'm siding it out more often than not in those games.
- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap