OMG! Underperforming!? Lightning Helix!? Wow, your deck is the first serious T2 deck I've seen that's RW and that's not running 4 Lightning Helix. It's just way to good not to be played. 6 life advantage for just 2 mana is just awesome. When is it underperforming, please, I want to know. (I'm sure you have a good reason, but I'm very damn curios about what it is)
This is something IBTG and I were sort of hesitant to try, I admit. Our reasoning behind the choice was that in the control matches, where it was pretty useless anyways, it wasn't important. And in the aggro matches, most of the decks were now running cheapfat that was outside the range of Lightning Helix and since aggro matches was where it served the most use, and the Loxodon Hierarchs were already in the SB for aggro, that we could simply move the Hierarchs maindeck and add an extra Stomping Ground for mana consistency.
I've not looked back since.
Kind of amazing to believe that a card that combines Lightning Bolt and Healing Salve for the same cost isn't good enough, huh?
The whole reason why I'm arguing with you right now is for 3 reasons: I don't think that congregation at dawn + creatures that we've had before Guldpact, + Burning Tree Shaman = a better deck.
Obviously you think I'm wrong. However, in the grand scheme of things it is not what one THINKS, but what one finds as FACTS through testing that is important. However, if you really do need me to spell it out for you, with the addition of 165 cards (some of which, are quite good I might add), things got tossed up in the format. As a result, threats to the deck that did not EXIST before Guildpact are now very much relevant, and the deck needs to change to address such threats.
Number two is saying that Wildfire is good against Emminant Domain, which is patently false.
I'm going to ask you to look farther down where I address the end of your post.
Number 3 is just coming out of the gates wildly swinging, calling people idiots for thinking differently than you, this is precisely why you won't be missed as an administrator.
There is nothing wrong with thinking differently than someone else. In fact, you're half-inserting your foot in mouth as is. You're the one calling testing by IBTG and I incorrect simply because our ideas have deviated from the stigma in your mind that is associated with what you think the deck should look like. And by far, that is the problem with North American players. They tend to get it locked into their mind that things can only exist one way, and they stigmatize it. That is why the Japanese are now the prevalent deck builders - they have no such stigmatic thoughts.
Also, please learn to research your stuff before you make such blatant attacks. I was a GLOBAL MODERATOR for about 11 months. As for whether or not I'm missed... *shrug*... You? You obviously don't give a damn whether I was a mod or not. However, a vary large portion of the posting members on the site disagree with you. You're quite free to have your own opinions, and I won't ridicule you for them, but please, in the same light, don't attempt to ridicule valid ideas IBTG and I have presented with testing when you in turn have not gone as far as to test for yourself the ideas presented.
How about I let you live in your little world where Wildfire is good against Emminant Domain and Time Stop is uncounterable.
I do find it humorous that the best argument you have against me is that I accidentally went as far as to say Time Stop was uncounterable. As if, like, everyone plays the card anyways, and I'm a demon for not knowing it's wording exactly off the top of my head.
At any rate, I do beg of you to ask ixidorsdreams about a few of the games he and I played. In one occasion, we both ended up playing a Wildfire (one turn after another), and simply because he had zero lands and I managed to hold on to a few, he was not able to come back whereas I was able to play a Kodama of the North Tree and beat down for the win. Indeed, I've only had time to play 4 matches so far against ED (being in high school does leave one with a rather arbitrary amount of homework), but I've yet to lose a single game in any of those matches.
I'll continue to playtest my decks and not let other people call me an idiot for doing well with them.
Oh, the hypocrisy! Over and over you stress that IBTG and I call you an idiot for your ideas, when in fact it is YOU who is trying to call the two of us idiots for our valid testing that we have kindly provided and even gone as far as to defend. Mayhap you should come back and talk to us some more after you've used our deck some?
You're saying that my depiction of you wildfiring the ED opponent is somehow "giving them a godhand" as an example, but realistically I gave you the godhand as well, giving you 3 mana accelerators and wildfire, which is only 3 of in your deck with no way to search for it. I gave the ED player a signet, an Annex and a Dream Leash. Isn't it a typical hand for an ED player to have? You say that the best case scenario is to unleash a wildfire AFTER they have Wildfired you. In order for that to happen immediatly, you have to have 10 mana sources available: Not likely, especially with Icy Manipulator around. PLUS I let your deck go first. The further the game progesses in that matchup, the worse Wildfire becomes.
Obviously you think I'm wrong. However, in the grand scheme of things it is not what one THINKS, but what one finds as FACTS through testing that is important. However, if you really do need me to spell it out for you, with the addition of 165 cards (some of which, are quite good I might add), things got tossed up in the format. As a result, threats to the deck that did not EXIST before Guildpact are now very much relevant, and the deck needs to change to address such threats.
Honestly, the only thing I can think of that has emerged as a threat that your deck would be more able to deal with is BTS. This deck, as I have said has 8 maindeck answers to that card, as well as SDT and shuffle effects. This is a LOT of ways to deal with said problem card. I can not think of any other card that would realistically be a threat to the deck come Guildact release. People are saying Wreak Havok, but I'm not seeing it, it costs 4, and it's probably worse than Creeping Mold.
There is nothing wrong with thinking differently than someone else. In fact, you're half-inserting your foot in mouth as is. You're the one calling testing by IBTG and I incorrect simply because our ideas have deviated from the stigma in your mind that is associated with what you think the deck should look like. And by far, that is the problem with North American players. They tend to get it locked into their mind that things can only exist one way, and they stigmatize it. That is why the Japanese are now the prevalent deck builders - they have no such stigmatic thoughts.
Really? I find that one of the best ways to modify a deck is by having a relevant discussion as to whether or not the strategy being proposed is a good one. I don't see how inserting a bunch of cards that were available to us before Guildpact is going to help us out against this "radically new metagame" that you keep talking about but not actually disclosing what you mean by it. Which cards do you fear in this new metagame that this deck would be unable to deal with? This new change is obviously in reacton to Guildpact being released, but all I see in the deck are three Burning-Tree Shamans and a few 5/5 for 4s, and a different approach to the deck. This deck essentially looks like an underpowered Ghazi-Glare.
I also make new decks, I don't just rabidly netdeck and try to uphold the status quo, I too try to make the best deck possible, regardless wether it goes against the established build of the deck. You mention the Japanese as being these great innovators, but if this build of the deck is so solid, why didn't they create it yet? Chorus of the Conclave + Fat doesn't seem that complicated, and the only new card you've added to the mix is Burning Tree Shaman, but if this is the correct version of the deck, then why didn't people switch to this deck instead of continuing with the Sunforger idea? Don't tell me that you were the first people to think of this idea. Again, if Burning Tree Shaman is the only thing that I should be worried about coming out of Guildpact, then I don't think I have much to worry about at all.
I keep hearing the mana argument, about how it costs too much mana to play and equip Sunforger, but I would argue that it's akin to Eternal Dragon. Sure it costs 12 mana to recur and play, but guess what, it's a powerful win condition. Its power comes from being difficult to deal with, I would argue that Sunforger's power comes from its ability to create card advantage, and tutor good instants into play. Sunforger now has two new great cards to tutor: Mortify and Electrolyse.
Please, identify the cards coming out of Guildpact that your deck has been built to avoid.
You're saying that my depiction of you wildfiring the ED opponent is somehow "giving them a godhand" as an example, but realistically I gave you the godhand as well, giving you 3 mana accelerators and wildfire, which is only 3 of in your deck with no way to search for it. I gave the ED player a signet, an Annex and a Dream Leash.
You still aren't understanding how Wildfire is to be used in the matchup. It's really a delicate card for you, as much as it is for them. There's plenty of times where it will kill them. But on the flipside, there's going to be times that Wildfireing will spell the end for you. However, Wildfire isn't something that either deck wants to power out as quickly as possible. You use it when it does more harm to them to you, or you absolutely need to.
In a "God" draw, I'd be laying a turn 3 Hierarch/Slum, turn 4 Kodama of the North Tree. But that's beside the point.
You say that the best case scenario is to unleash a wildfire AFTER they have Wildfired you. In order for that to happen immediatly, you have to have 10 mana sources available: Not likely, especially with Icy Manipulator around. PLUS I let your deck go first. The further the game progesses in that matchup, the worse Wildfire becomes.
I did not at ALL say the best time to Wildfire them is after they've already hit me. I gave you a real life scenario where I was able to win despite losing 8 lands. It was nothing more than an example to show that Wildfire doesn't usually hurt me in the slightest.
The thing is, most often, I find, the ED player has maybe, 6 lands total at the end of a game unless they get swarmed. The rest is all in the Signets. Taking out 4 lands can really swing the game in your favor. Especially when it leaves them on zero lands, which does happen a good amount of the time.
Honestly, the only thing I can think of that has emerged as a threat that your deck would be more able to deal with is BTS. This deck, as I have said has 8 maindeck answers to that card, as well as SDT and shuffle effects. This is a LOT of ways to deal with said problem card. I can not think of any other card that would realistically be a threat to the deck come Guildact release. People are saying Wreak Havok, but I'm not seeing it, it costs 4, and it's probably worse than Creeping Mold.
Honestly... Some individuals are truly close-minded.
Just because only one new ARCHETYPE has appeared does not mean that it's the only thing Guildpact added to the format.
Really? I find that one of the best ways to modify a deck is by having a relevant discussion as to whether or not the strategy being proposed is a good one.
Which is exactly what IBTG and I did while we were TESTING our ideas in real environments to see whether or not our discussion on the proposed strategy was good. And guess what? In a real environment, where we weren't just hypothesizing but performing actual demonstrations of the deck, we found that our hypotheses were correct.
I don't see how inserting a bunch of cards that were available to us before Guildpact is going to help us out against this "radically new metagame" that you keep talking about but not actually disclosing what you mean by it.
I've addressed that CLEARLY in prior posts. To summarize, new threats because of decks making additions with Guildpact cards require answers to those cards. We didn't run those answers before because the cards obviously weren't there.
This new change is obviously in reacton to Guildpact being released, but all I see in the deck are three Burning-Tree Shamans and a few 5/5 for 4s, and a different approach to the deck. This deck essentially looks like an underpowered Ghazi-Glare.
Oh yes, because our deck looks EXACTLY like these (taken from the Comprehensive Guide):
ALL our list has in common with either of the above is that we run green cards, we run white cards, and we agree that Kodama of the North Tree and Loxodon Hierarch are good.
Yes, they must truly be the same deck.
I also make new decks, I don't just rabidly netdeck and try to uphold the status quo, I too try to make the best deck possible, regardless wether it goes against the established build of the deck.
Good. IBTG and I do the same. How does one make good decks? By testing. That's what we've done. Before you continue to recklessly trash our deck, maybe you should try using it some?
You mention the Japanese as being these great innovators, but if this build of the deck is so solid, why didn't they create it yet?
Because we'd all know if they'd have built it already, considering it's geared towards the post-GP format, right? Now that you mention it, why don't I just call all my buddies in Japan right now and ask them if they've built it?
Chorus of the Conclave + Fat doesn't seem that complicated, and the only new card you've added to the mix is Burning Tree Shaman, but if this is the correct version of the deck, then why didn't people switch to this deck instead of continuing with the Sunforger idea?
Could it possibly be because the environment is not the same as it was pre-Guildpact? The format is considerably faster now, and I guarantee BTS won't be the only new deck to emerge out of Guildpact - the format is going to continue to get faster.
Again, if Burning Tree Shaman is the only thing that I should be worried about coming out of Guildpact, then I don't think I have much to worry about at all.
Your fervor for redundantly rehashing the same question over and over after it's been answered adequately is truly remarkable.
I keep hearing the mana argument, about how it costs too much mana to play and equip Sunforger, but I would argue that it's akin to Eternal Dragon.
So... you're comparing a recurring 5/5 flyer with the ability to thin lands out of the deck to a piece of equipment that when used on a 1/1 critter that cost 5 mana that can tutor up some random red or white card?
Yeah, I'll try and pretend that makes any sense at all so I can follow you.
Sure it costs 12 mana to recur and play, but guess what, it's a powerful win condition.
Alright! I'm going to start paying 11 mana so I can lay the 5/1 creature token beatdown!
Its power comes from being difficult to deal with, I would argue that Sunforger's power comes from its ability to create card advantage, and tutor good instants into play.
God... Don't you remember the good old days when tutors came at a decent price? I suppose 9GWWR mana isn't too far shy of though.
Sunforger now has two new great cards to tutor: Mortify and Electrolyse.
1. Mortify is decent spot removal, but alone, not worth keeping Sunforger in the deck over. If I wanted to run it, I'd run 4 Mortify and use the extra spots that'd have been Sunforger for something that's not ridiculously expensive.
2. Are you honestly suggesting adding blue for Electrolyze? I'd run it in an existing UR deck, likely, but I'd not add blue to a deck for the card by any means.
Please, identify the cards coming out of Guildpact that your deck has been built to avoid.
To be honest, if I were running Sunforger in my deck still, I'd be afraid of Pokemon cards.
All joking aside, it really isn't any individual cards that I fear with this deck, aside from Burning-Tree Shaman.
A more apt description would be "concoctions of cards". RG-based aggro seems to be the new deck of choice with Guildpact. Cheap beats via Gruul men, their artifact removal, and their burn. Couple it with the fact that while those using Sunforger are taking the time to tutor out a lone piece of spot removal, they're smashing your face with 2-3 big critters, with more in their hand should you manage to remove them. Personally, I'd rather beat their big critters with my own that come out faster and smash face sooner than sit behind a piece of janky equipment.
I think, Alfred, the thing you're failing to remember in all this discussion is that the old Fungus Fires (meaning, version running Sunforger) was ALWAYS a metagame deck. It only ever did well because it could run into a format of RW Aggro that simply got run over by any sort of mass removal. It rolled over to most forms of control and cried for its mum.
However, the game has changed. It's no more a bunch of 1/1's and 2/2's that are running headlong at us. It's 3/4's and 5/5's and the same old deck isn't going to cut it.
That said, maybe our list isn't Fungus Fires. It is radically different. Call it 4 color control if you will. Whether or not is the same deck is irrelevant, fact of the matter is, with the new metagame, it outperforms the Fungus Fire list you prefer by miles.
EDIT -
Since you do seem so keen to attack the testing IBTG and I had, why don't you return the favor and enlighten us with your obviously better list? Looking through the thread I don't recall YOU having posted a list in the last month (if ever; I only looked a month back), so please, do give us your list that you've tested and explain to us exactly why it is better than ours in the post-Guilpact format.
phew, went to day 2 of the prerelease, yelled Free R_E a couple times, cracked a foil Rumbling Slum, and I miss the conversation... blast.
Quote from alfred »
People are saying Wreak Havok, but I'm not seeing it, it costs 4, and it's probably worse than Creeping Mold.
People, as in not just me, who have odds are tested the format and are saying that wreak havoc is being run. compare it to juzam for all I care, it wont change the fact that it is being run in 60 and 61 card standard magic libraries the world over...
Quote from alfred »
Really? I find that one of the best ways to modify a deck is by having a relevant discussion as to whether or not the strategy being proposed is a good one.
I totally agree sir. Will and I have presented an argument opposing the inclusion of sunforger. We have systematically analyzed the weakness of the spell, and currently we dont not feel the card is warranted. Keep in mind sir as well though, I know have 30 some odd games of experience with the deck in the new format. Every claim I am making is solely on the information those games have provided for me. You can disagree as adimantly as you like, that does not change the fact that my opinions can at least be substantiated, whereas you can not even produce testing results.
Quote from alfred »
I don't see how inserting a bunch of cards that were available to us before Guildpact is going to help us out against this "radically new metagame" that you keep talking about but not actually disclosing what you mean by it.
I have seen a tremendous shift in the popularity of beats decks, which is radically different from the aggro-control hybrid, control dominated format that was ravnica t2. as I said before, we are not just making frivelous claims, we have actually played the format.
Quote from Alfred »
Which cards do you fear in this new metagame that this deck would be unable to deal with?
First an foremost Id rather not have a slum played against me, as then my only ways to deal with him come down to 7 cards in the deck, in fetters and wrath. Id rather not see cranial for my yosei, but the game would still be very winnable after that. Ideally speaking if the deck is viable, there wont be too many cards that are serious issue to its performance. Only time and testing will be able to further answer this question.
Quote from alfred »
This new change is obviously in reacton to Guildpact being released, but all I see in the deck are three Burning-Tree Shamans and a few 5/5 for 4s, and a different approach to the deck.
is that not the appropriate way to create a new deck, in a new format? I mean, you assess what the new card pool brings to the environment, you test like mad and based upon the data you find between analysis and playing, you taper your deck to survive the metagame. If you werent "reacting" to a new set of 165 brand new goodies, I wouldnt say you were much of a competitive magic player.
Quote from alfred »
This deck essentially looks like an underpowered Ghazi-Glare.
appearances can apparently be deceiving... Its obviously going to have a vague resemblance to a deck that runs the same colors and is considered aggro control, much like this one is. the same cards remain playable although the decks function entirely different. something you would pick up upon if you actually played the deck.
Quote from alfred »
I also make new decks, I don't just rabidly netdeck and try to uphold the status quo
the deck Will and I are working on is not a netdeck... and I really take offense to that term. we are playing a game competitively, I invest a good sum of money to do so, so why not play to win? decks that are on the net are there because they are proven, tested and constructed by good players, if you dont want to play them, thats on you dude, not us. there is not status quo, if running quality spells is unacceptable to you, please by all means, run something you have come up with instead.
Quote from alfred »
You mention the Japanese as being these great innovators, but if this build of the deck is so solid, why didn't they create it yet?
that is the most illogical comment you have made on this entire thread... perhaps the fact that the new t2 doesnt even rotate into legality until late Feb/early March has something to do with it, possibly because it is limited season right now and lastly I dont have Mashi Oiso or Katushiro Kori's home phone number so I can just call them up and gain access to their insight and decklists. do you?
Quote from alfred »
Chorus of the Conclave + Fat doesn't seem that complicated
sir, we dont run chorus of the conclave...
I wont even bother to quote your assanine rants about how this deck only has vague differences from the Fungus Fires (that I ..cough.. designed ..cough..) before states. they are very different, and you can tell just by looking at the list. arguing this point is becoming moot because it is an inalienable fact that is indisputable and painfully obvious to someone how has played both (which, I assure you sir, I have, check the first pages of this thread).
Quote from alfred »
I keep hearing the mana argument, about how it costs too much mana to play and equip Sunforger, but I would argue that it's akin to Eternal Dragon.
I dont see the parallel between a 5/5 recurring beat stick that thins your deck out of mana, to an extremely mana intensive artifact that if one putrefy/naturalize/terashi's grasp/tin street hooligan/shattering spree/pithind needle etc etc, you investments were all for not and you have no way of getting it back. I guess I fail to see the endless similarities :(.
I might chip in and say something about this "radically changed metagame" coming up.
It only takes one deck to change a metagame. Look at what Friggorid did to extended. People changed their decks around after it won big a month or so ago.
So back to T2, that one deck could be RG beatdown or BW control. But then you also have to consider that 3 more dual lands were made in the new set so that makes a lot more color combinations a lot easier (BWG, RGW, UBW, RGB to name a few). I mean we can't predict what decks are going to be good. We didn't know Friggorid was going to win in extended untill it happens.
Personally, I don't care how many turns it's over. If you're paying 13 mana to tutor given instant spell and play it for free, I'd rather spend 4 mana in one turn dropping a 4/4 beatstick or 5 mana for a Kodama than use THIRTEEN MANA for a near pointless, overcosted, and narrow tutor.
I'm sticking with BB18 and IBTG on this one... Sunforger is a thing of the past. Yeah, you can tutor out some answers... but those answers are only temporary. You've got a toolbox, mostly 1-ofs, and once you've used a PARTICULAR answer to a threat, you no longer have that answer at your disposal. So basically, you can deal with a bunch of different situations just fine, but if you have to deal with the same situation repeatedly... you're going to run into problems.
Nevermind that if you lose your sunforgers via cranial extraction or just simply from removal, your deck will become incredibly inconsistent.
With the fat now in the deck, you're switching the game from you dealing with the opponent's threats to the opponent having to deal with YOUR threats.
You can argue about how that isn't a real "Fungus Fires" deck per se... but quite frankly, you can say the same thing about this deck's predecessor. Decks will continue to evolve, and this is the next stage in the evolution. Eventually, this too will phase out and over time, another generation will be born. It's how Magic works.
Now, the one thing I'm curious to see is how well EXACTLY this deck performs... some big claims have been made about how the deck loses very little and is standing up very strong against the competition. I haven't had the time to playtest the new format very much, so I'm only going off of sheer guessing, but I just don't see this deck ripping up everything that is thrown at it. *shrugs* I'm going to start playtesting as soon as possible, either with or against.
I don't doubt the credibility of the posters, that's not my intent... It's just I don't think the other decks have been adapted fully yet (or something to that effect). *shrugs* If either of you (Will or Brian) wouldn't mind doing a bit of playtesting against me in the near future, it'd be appreciated actually, as I have some of my own concoctions to try out
after reading this schoolyard feud between alfred and the twin avengers IBTG and BB18, i've come to the following conclusions:
The twins made essentially a new deck, with a lot of fat, expensive rares that have proven their worth on their own. their results are there, and the deck has won. has the deck won anything meaningful? has the meta developed to a point where their builds are going to stay constant? no. they've updated 4 times already. a deck they were praising as being so good, and so great, has changed 4 times in as many days. obvioulsy the work they've been doing has paid off and they are building a deck that can win.
but does that mean that the 2 or 3 of you have to beat up on the deck that this thread was originally intended for? there is a reason that the sunforger won tournaments, and that is because it was and still is a very good card. it's mana intensive. but why do you have to use it the way you are talking about every time? equip it to a creature you arleady have out, like an elder, or a wood elf, or a token... and SWING! let them bock your 5/1 beatstick, then burn your oppoenent, or kill their arty/enchant. the forger doesn't have to be a 26 mana lightning helix. a smart player will use it as the situation arises... not be obsessive about complete control and use it for every threat that drops.
finally... wildfire i think is very farfetched for this deck. when you have so many threats that die to it... it cant be that effective. elephants, north trees, scarabs, and not to mention your very fragile mana base all go to waste. if you are saying that you wildfired, after your ED opponent wildfired, and then still had enough mana to cast kodama... then you were playing a very POOR ED player. ED is the best deck in the format IMHO. you are never going to 'out-wildfire' him. in that, they will always have the tempo advantage unless you do something about their tempo. casting wildfire is not the answer. enchant/arty hate is tho. putrefy and mortify come to mind, not only does killing their enchants slow their tempo down, but speeds yours back up. i cant say running a card that kills 4 of his lands, and 4 of yoru lands and 4 to all your creatures is the best alternative. there must be another expensive rare that you can find for your deck.
and finally... can you two stop calling it your deck? i know that you two made it together, and test together... but i'm starting to feel that you two feel that anything everyone else says is wrong, unless you tested it. its great that you test together, but dont put everyone else down for their ideas on this public forum while sitting yourselves utop a pedastal. it only makes yourselves look less credible, and more ignorant.
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"The shuffler is what makes good players look like scrubs."
-me
The twins made essentially a new deck, with a lot of fat, expensive rares that have proven their worth on their own. their results are there, and the deck has won. has the deck won anything meaningful? has the meta developed to a point where their builds are going to stay constant? no. they've updated 4 times already. a deck they were praising as being so good, and so great, has changed 4 times in as many days. obvioulsy the work they've been doing has paid off and they are building a deck that can win.
The reason for the changes is because we literally had JUST got the first build of the deck made the day we posted it. It was far from refined at the time, which is what we've been doing since.
I'll respond to the rest later, in the meantime, my mother needs to get on the computer, so I must be going.
but does that mean that the 2 or 3 of you have to beat up on the deck that this thread was originally intended for?
we arent beating up on anything... merely pointing out that we have created what we think is a further, more versatile evolution of the archetype.
Quote from DHermit »
there is a reason that the sunforger won tournaments, and that is because it was and still is a very good card.
It won some tournaments? which ones might those have been? to my knowledge I cant recall a deck running sunforger top 8ing at very many relevant tournaments at all be it states, worlds or otherwise. regardless though, that was still 165 cards ago. What was good then, is not necessarily good now.
Quote from Dhermit »
but why do you have to use it the way you are talking about every time?
you dont... either way though you need to recognize that some things are still going to be the exact same. if you arent equipping and using the forger the first turn you cast it, it is a severe loss of tempo. If you dont want to lose this tempo you need to have 6RW, which seems a bit of a stretch for a tutor. then you add in the fact that forger isnt going to stay online for all that long, you are clearly playing with a suboptimal spell.
Quote from DHermit »
a smart player will use it as the situation arises...
so on top of a hefty mana investment, you are saying the card is only good in specific situations... sorry, I have this thing about running spells that are good all the time.
Quote from Dhermit »
and finally... can you two stop calling it your deck?
why? it is the list that we came up with, right?
Quote from DHermit »
but dont put everyone else down for their ideas on this public forum while sitting yourselves utop a pedastal. it only makes yourselves look less credible, and more ignorant.
less credible and ignorant? how can that be the case? we are making arguments based upon more playtesting than anyone else who has come foward on this thread has. we arent putting anyone down, or the ideas and opinions they convey. It is clear however, some of us have tested and some of this havent. this is the competitive forum; and not to be to cliche but rule number 76: no excuses PLAY, like a champion. if you want to discuss something you have tested versus something I have tested, fine. If you want to argue with us, just to hear yourself talk, well obviously we are going to have a slight issue with that.
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Quote from Miscalcul8edRisk »
In IBTG we trust
Quote from Veserius »
Hats off to [BB18 & IBTG], you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
and finally... can you two stop calling it your deck? i know that you two made it together, and test together... but i'm starting to feel that you two feel that anything everyone else says is wrong, unless you tested it. its great that you test together, but dont put everyone else down for their ideas on this public forum while sitting yourselves utop a pedastal. it only makes yourselves look less credible, and more ignorant.
Sorry to butt in here, but I have been following this feud / debate for days as I am a fan and supporter of my clanmate Alfred.
Anyway, it seems to me that at some point, testing between the same two people becomes redundant as you start to get used to each others' style of play. There are human factors to consider in matchups that go beyond a card-by-card "perfect" decklist, and it seems that you can only hone your deck to a wide variety of players and playing styles if you test that way.
I'm sure that the best players try to play unpredictably while always making solid play decisions, and I don't mean to imply that anyone is a bad player by any means, but I think that it would be more productive for this thread, and Fungus Fires players the board over, if the arguments and egos were set aside, and everyone started playtesting the various builds with different cards. If Sunforger seems suboptimal vs. a Burning-Tree Shaman, or if someone is telling you it is, makes no difference unless you test it and know for sure it is.
The level of eloquence in this thread is impressive, but despite that, it doesn't strike me as incredibly conducive to deck growth. It's just two obstinate parties, refusing to admit the other could be right, and refusing to test the other's build in the new environment.
These kinds of unfounded arguments used to run rampant across the Competitive threads, and I hope this doesn't herald their return.
Sorry to butt in here, but I have been following this feud / debate for days as I am a fan and supporter of my clanmate Alfred.
welcome, welcome. Im not a member of any clan in particular, though if there was one that was founded on the basis of only making arguments when I had a reasonable amount of playtesting data to substantiate my claims, I would join that one in a second ;).
Quote from alfred »
Anyway, it seems to me that at some point, testing between the same two people becomes redundant as you start to get used to each others' style of play.
sir, when did either Will or myself say that we only played against each other? actually, ironically enough, none of our testing has come against each other. we both respect that we have our own ways of testing, with our own playtesting partners. I have been doing the same thing for years, ever since you could rector up a bargain, and as they say, " if it aint broke dont fix it though." this is a prime example of twisting the information that has been given to you in order for you to somehow discredit the postor. instead of patting Will and I on the back for providing playtesting results, you know are from two good players, you would rather sit her and argue about them, when you have none of your own. thats sort of like going into a battle of wits unarmed, when the two guys you are going to arguea against are holding atom bombs... as I have said, probably 1000 thousand times now on this web site; if you disagree with something we have TESTED thats fine, but you damn well have better tested the argument you are making in turn. because you disagree due to the name of the postor or if you just dont want to come with grips with the fact that the format is no longer what it is are not acceptable reasons to incite an argument or even a conversation at that point.
Just for reference though, I took this deck to the prerelease and sat down and played it against a few people, I know to be good players. ohh and alfred, guess what some of them were even... JAPANESE!!
Quote from polyjak »
I think that it would be more productive for this thread, and Fungus Fires players the board over, if the arguments and egos were set aside, and everyone started playtesting the various builds with different cards.
sir, I agree with you, well slightly. it would be more productive if people shut their mouths and just started testing. tell me though, how can Will and I do anything more than we have already done. WE HAVE PROVIDED PLAYTESTING RESULTS!! alfred,ilvion,deranged hermit have not... seems like some people do need to stop suffering from a condition I like to call; running of the mouth, and do some damn testing like WILL AND I have ALREADY done.
Basically what you are saying is logically sound. If you dont have results, shut up and get some. Pretty much the same thing Will and I have been telling everyone who just wants to frivelously argue with us.
Its very easy to stare at your computer screen and and try to demerit the persons actually posting results, if you dont actually have any of your own wouldnt you say?
Quote from polyjak »
Sunforger seems suboptimal vs. a Burning-Tree Shaman, or if someone is telling you it is, makes no difference unless you test it and know for sure it is. again, agreed, though we arent just saying it is bad because of BTS, but because of the way the format is developing. either way though, if you, or any of these people arguing with us, had picked up the deck they would know that, just play a friggin game. thats why Im so dumbfounded and aggrevated that this discussion is going any further, if you just played the deck you know that Will and I arent just coming up with random claims, we have played the deck.
Quote from polyjak »
The level of eloquence in this thread is impressive
thank you sir, I try.
Quote from polyjak »
These kinds of unfounded arguments used to run rampant across the Competitive threads, and I hope this doesn't herald their return.
unfounded... like the type argument someone makes when they have no data to back up their statements... if any of the aformentioned people have playtesting results, they would have posted it by now, whereas Will and I stayed congruent to the forum rules and posted ours. tell me how our argument is unfounded, if it is well represented in a clear, concise manner based on the premis of fact not opinion?
Ilvion.... I dont even know where to begin with you. In my last post I discussed the loss of tempo, and the unlikeliness that forger will stay online for you to spread the mana investment over many turns... perhaps, reading is the most secret tech of all ;).
Please say "I have playtested" once more, and I'm going to vomit.
You've been saying that for pages now.
EDIT: man, it's really hard to read your posts. Most of the time, it's just "I have playtested", and resp. on things that doesn't matter. And then the colour. Sigh. Someone has to say it...
I have playtested.... induce any vommitting yet? in your last post you give Kudos to Polyjak for telling people that if they dont have a viable argument or anything constructive to say, they shouldnt say anything. tell me sir, how is your post at all relevant to the discussion of this deck?
I have been saying that I have playtesting data for pages now because, I do... and yet, still coupled with that fact people try to argue with me that have none. perhaps, Im just not getting that message across.
my posts are hard to read? my suggestion sir, get a damn dictionary. Im one of the best writers on the site ;). as far as the color, my screen resolution makes it appear quite nicely :).
nope, no one had to say anything. do you realize that we arent any further in talking about this deck, if for the rest of the thread you ask ridiculous, illogical questions and then scoff at the answers the good players give you. that might fly over at manatap or wherever you just got booted from being a mod, this is MTGS and it doesnt fly here.
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Quote from Miscalcul8edRisk »
In IBTG we trust
Quote from Veserius »
Hats off to [BB18 & IBTG], you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
Sunforger was barely useful in the old metagame, and Fungus Fires really wasn't a competitive deck, except against aggro decks..and even then, it was only good against Rw.
But now, with cards like Burning-Tree Shaman, Rumbling Slum, etc, Sunforger is *obviously* too slow...I can't even understand how anyone would debate this point. You can build an RG Aggro deck in less than 5 minutes(meaning that it won't be a refined or polished decklist at all), and play it against old versions of this and utterly wipe the floor with them. You'll be lucky if Sunforger ever comes online at all, and even when it does, Shaman says that you have to take 2 damage just to equip it and then find a card to cast with it. Just use common sense here. It's possible that RWG Control is still playable, but, not in the old 'Fungus Fire' forms.
ok, the fact is that this deck is going to be very sub-par after guildpact is legal, even though it was sub-par before. i playtested it when you suggested it and it lost a lot, it did beat R/w a lot, and we thought that that was gonna be the most played deck at stated. it was, but this deck was quite horrid against any sort of control. it is gonna get worse against aggro, and i really don't think this will be viable at all, even though i didn't think it was viable in the first place. i do have to agree that sunforger is a horrible card for t2. i have never wanted to use it except in limited. i don't think this deck discussion should be on the competetive side anymore or it should at least be moved when guildpact is legal. @IBTG i do remember when a former member named Apos was on here and you and him were arguing, you said that decks shouldn't be on the competetive side if they haven't shown results and you pointed out that most that he said were bad had top 8's, but earlier you said that this hasn't shown results or top 8ed much at all, i know you have done a lot of testing with this, and that you aparently love this deck, but it hasn't shown results, and until it does i refuse to believe that this is a competetive deck.
Sunforger was barely useful in the old metagame, and Fungus Fires really wasn't a competitive deck, except against aggro decks..and even then, it was only good against Rw.
agreed on all counts. there really isnt much more to say on that topic. apparently it is a relatively accepted certainty amongst GOOD players, if other ones cant make that distinction, well, more players for us to stomp on our way to the top 8.
Quote from Cyan »
But now, with cards like Burning-Tree Shaman, Rumbling Slum, etc, Sunforger is *obviously* too slow...I can't even understand how anyone would debate this point.
again, agreed on all counts.
Quote from cyan »
You can build an RG Aggro deck in less than 5 minutes(meaning that it won't be a refined or polished decklist at all), and play it against old versions of this and utterly wipe the floor with them.
agreed, in which case the deck with forger cant even win a matchup that is specifically noted as a cake walk... sweet.
Quote from Cyan »
You'll be lucky if Sunforger ever comes online at all
agreed, and even if it does, there is less of a likelihood it will remain in said state for very long.
Quote from cyan »
Just use common sense here.
its a futile attempt, I have been asking for 3 pages now :(.
Quote from Cyan »
It's possible that RWG Control is still playable, but, not in the old 'Fungus Fire' forms.
Im sure it will come as no suprise... I agree.
Jive turkey, I can pm you a list if you want, but at this point Im not about to share any more of my work with people who dont appreciate it.
could you guys also stop referring to us as "the twins?" the only thing will and I have in common is being good magic players that playtest. that analogy was weak from the get go.
Quote from ilvion »
Oh, yeah, IBTG. Like the way you write now, has anything to do with other times when you, supposedly, did write normal.
sir, what in the HELL are you talking about? let the way I write go, and get back to the deck... that is if you actually have a relevant thought to provide.
Quote from ilvion »
Oh, yeah, IBTG. Like the way your colour appears on your PC has anything to do with the way I see it.
well, you are the only user who whines about it. not to mention, you can obviously read it well enough to critique how I write... basically, you missed the irony in what I said. essentially, I dont care how it comes up on your monitor, I can read it just fine, and thats all that matters. I have posted in that color for well over 8 months now, and well obviously enough people can read my posts, I am after all ahem... BEST STANDARD STRATEGIST OF 2005 ;). you havent added anything to this discussion, so why would I care if you can read my posts?
Quote from ilvion »
Oh, yeah, IBTG. I was wrong. You've playtested, so everyone has to listen to you, and take all things you say as granted.
I dont see you, or many other people involved with this discussion playtesting ;). at least my arguments are intelligent and have some basis of fact. whereas, yours seem to be more the kind that come from your anal cavity. stop whining, discuss the deck or dont even bother posting.
Chopperdave, the portion of your post directed at me is just one really, really long run-on sentence. could you break that up into a readable portrayl of your ideas? either way though, wasnt apos, the former member who is know banned because of his stupidity? doesnt seem like anything we should be discussing now. I will say though, I think will and I get the rules slightly relaxed for us when it comes to posting decklists, as we are senior members and have been playing the game for a while. not trying to be cocky, but if you see my name or will's name next to thread author and then you saw something that apos or some scrub came up with, Im sure just on names alone you would expect to find a competitive deck under our names, whereas god only knows what you will find elsewhere.
Oh, yeah, IBTG. Like the way you write now, has anything to do with other times when you, supposedly, did write normal.
Oh, yeah, IBTG. Like the way your colour appears on your PC has anything to do with the way I see it.
Oh, yeah, IBTG. I was wrong. You've playtested, so everyone has to listen to you, and take all things you say as granted.
/sarcasm.
I kind of see where the guy is coming from. I mean here he is doing all this work playtesting the deck and posting the results, and then you just come along and say it sucks without using actual evidence (i.e testing of your own) to back it up.
I mean, if you guys have tested his list and found that its complete crap, post the results. You are arguing just based on speculation. If you bring actual facts on to the table we might have something here.
If you dont want to test his list, test your own list and argue that its better.
I hate to take sides in this debate because I havn't tested the deck either, so Im not going to bother trying to argue without facts, but i've been reading the past page an a half of arguement and you have been arguing more on each other rather than the deck itself.
Cool it down guys. I've already handed out two warnings, don't make me hand out any more. Please talk about the deck and move all other discussion to private messages or a messager system. Any further discussion not relating to the deck will most likely result in a warning.
well...as much as i dislike IBTG sometimes, i must say that its nearly impossible to refute any of his choices, points, or claims. The guy is XX% of the time right. (XX is some really high percentage) He tests...then tests some more...then gets board of testing, so decides to change things up a little and do some more testing! When i do my testing, I always test VS IBTG's lists first, as they are usually the most thought out, tested, and adapted decks posted.
Sunforger is a neat card. its one of those cards with a really cool effect, and you want it to work good, the idea behind it is exciting..but unfortunately its not worth the investment most of the time. If it cost 2 to play, 2 to equip then yes maybe. ITs not worth the mana just to have it blown up. If it cost 2 to play, 2 to equip, like a jitte, then yes maybe. I decided to dust off the ole fungus fires deck, and make some of the switches suggested, and I find them to be sufficient changes to better the deck, post GP. IF anyone wants to continue testing Fungus Fires V.'05 fly at 'er...but i dont see how its better than this new version...
Looks like you guys had a fun time today while I was at school.
In the end, I'd like to thank first and foremost, Cyan, for being able to come in completely unbiased on the matter and lay out an opinion that can't truly be refuted.
As for a most current list, I'm working on it. The next week or so, I'm slammed for homework though, so I probably won't get any major testing till Saturday.
Here is the list that I have been tweaking over the past few weeks, and have had the most success with. There are two things that I've tried to address in the deck: adding versatile and strong threats, and keeping the strong removal that has made the deck successful in the past. I've come up with the following list:
I wanted to add more creatures that could play two roles. Dark Confidant for instance is excellent against control, can pick up Jittes early, slips under counterwalls, and generally must be killed early to avoid you getting a lot of card advantage. The curve also tops out at 4, so there isn't too much worry about losing life (there's also life gain).
Nekrataal actually came to me rather recently, and it has been fantastic. I have noticed that even with the addition of Guildpact (and Orzhov), Black has been rather absent, and Nekrataal gives you a good combat creature as well as a way to deal with Melokus, Slums, BTS, WW + Zoo creatures and a plethora of other creatures I can't think of right now. It also has GREAT synergy with Jitte, because of first strike, and is a pretty good blocker on top of that.
Ghost Council is also one of the best creatures to come out of Guildpact, and the synergy that he has with the rest of the deck is astounding. There are enough other creatures in the deck to abuse his ability should you cast him earlier on, but one of the most savage combos is him and Vitu Ghazi. He can blink in and out avoiding removal while draining life, blocking all with 0 card disadvantage. The manabase is also solid enough to cast him consistantly.
Hierarch. This probably doesn't need too much explaination, because it's a solid threat, and it helps a lot against aggro.
Umezawa's Jitte is my newest addition to the deck, and is probably neccisary. You can attach it to a STE, Nekrataal, Hierarch or Confidant and it cleans up against both aggro and control decks. Also, it obviously is good against decks packing thier own Jittes.
Helix, Char, Mortify and Seed Spark are all removal spells that Sunforger can fetch, and are good spells to cast on their own.
Notible omissions: Wrath of God: Though powerful, I think that with a higher creature base it isn't as powerful as it was before. I also think that it doesn't pack enough punch against other control decks.
Kodama's Reach: With black added, and the need for more duals in the manabase it needed to be dropped. It also doesn't help out enough against aggressive decks to warrant an inclusion, and doesn't help your board position against Control decks enough.
Sensei's Divining Top: Though it has alright synergy with Dark Confidant, the curve is low enough so that Confidant won't be hurting you all that much. Less shuffle effects and the fact that Confidant has taken it's role as the draw engine in the deck mean that it's time is up.
What I like about my newest incarnation of the deck is that it has a more powerful midgame, and IMO a better lategame than Fungus Fires has had in the past. You still have the power of Sunforger in the late game, often sealing the victory.
I've been sitting around watching this thread for far too long. Anyway, I am going to have to agree with IBTG and BB18 here. I don't feel that the old version is too outdated (haven't played much with the newer stuff yet), but the fact is, sunforger is slow. Almost every game I played, the old deck was having problems keeping up with all the mana it needed to use to keep it going at a good pase.
Alfred, this is not a personal attack at you, but what were you trying to do here? Just looking at this version makes your control match first, they can pretty much sit there and wait for you to take 20 damage. 18 shocklands???? No offense, but that isn't going to work very well when you don't want to take damage. Dark Confidant further adds to your pain, running down your life total and Char hurts you even more. You might as well start the game at 10 life. Even more unfortunately, the cards that this deck is build around, you need that kind of heavy pain mana base. Almost none of the cards in your deck can be effectively used with just 1 color of mana. The Ghost Council is good, espcially in combo with Vitu-Ghazi, but it is going to be quite hard to hit that exact 4 cost. I have nothing against the addition of black, but not this heavy. Nekrataal and Ghost Council require too much black mana. Heirarch and Helix help to offset the pain, but I don't think it is quite enough.
As for suggestions, cut the ghost council and dark confident, it will be far too costly in a deck that is slow, especially with Faith's Fetters and the random Pillory of the Sleepless in the format. This version should probably go towards GBw rock, or replace ghost council, nekrataal, and confidant with more efficient creatures. I applaud the idea, but it just isn't going to work.
Ok... four colors doesn't seem like its going to work unless 1 or 2 of the colors are splashed in. Green seems to be a big part of the deck, same with black and white. It looks like red can be replaced, cause the only thing keeping it in is Sunforger, and according to this thread it sux anyway.
If you want to keep sunforger that badly I think you need to take out white or black.
Not that I'm calling your list solid by any means (I had time to spare for about 5 games with it), but Putrefy would be a better choice than Nekrataal by miles.
i think 11 spells of CMC 3 and 9 spells of CMC 4 is way too many for dark confidant...not to mention 6 of the 9 spells in the SB are 4 CMC....even with the lifegain from helix and heirarch..add in dmg from char, and shockland damage...i think confidant should definately come out. if u wanted the extra card, why not arena?
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This is something IBTG and I were sort of hesitant to try, I admit. Our reasoning behind the choice was that in the control matches, where it was pretty useless anyways, it wasn't important. And in the aggro matches, most of the decks were now running cheap fat that was outside the range of Lightning Helix and since aggro matches was where it served the most use, and the Loxodon Hierarchs were already in the SB for aggro, that we could simply move the Hierarchs maindeck and add an extra Stomping Ground for mana consistency.
I've not looked back since.
Kind of amazing to believe that a card that combines Lightning Bolt and Healing Salve for the same cost isn't good enough, huh?
Obviously you think I'm wrong. However, in the grand scheme of things it is not what one THINKS, but what one finds as FACTS through testing that is important. However, if you really do need me to spell it out for you, with the addition of 165 cards (some of which, are quite good I might add), things got tossed up in the format. As a result, threats to the deck that did not EXIST before Guildpact are now very much relevant, and the deck needs to change to address such threats.
I'm going to ask you to look farther down where I address the end of your post.
There is nothing wrong with thinking differently than someone else. In fact, you're half-inserting your foot in mouth as is. You're the one calling testing by IBTG and I incorrect simply because our ideas have deviated from the stigma in your mind that is associated with what you think the deck should look like. And by far, that is the problem with North American players. They tend to get it locked into their mind that things can only exist one way, and they stigmatize it. That is why the Japanese are now the prevalent deck builders - they have no such stigmatic thoughts.
Also, please learn to research your stuff before you make such blatant attacks. I was a GLOBAL MODERATOR for about 11 months. As for whether or not I'm missed... *shrug*... You? You obviously don't give a damn whether I was a mod or not. However, a vary large portion of the posting members on the site disagree with you. You're quite free to have your own opinions, and I won't ridicule you for them, but please, in the same light, don't attempt to ridicule valid ideas IBTG and I have presented with testing when you in turn have not gone as far as to test for yourself the ideas presented.
I do find it humorous that the best argument you have against me is that I accidentally went as far as to say Time Stop was uncounterable. As if, like, everyone plays the card anyways, and I'm a demon for not knowing it's wording exactly off the top of my head.
At any rate, I do beg of you to ask ixidorsdreams about a few of the games he and I played. In one occasion, we both ended up playing a Wildfire (one turn after another), and simply because he had zero lands and I managed to hold on to a few, he was not able to come back whereas I was able to play a Kodama of the North Tree and beat down for the win. Indeed, I've only had time to play 4 matches so far against ED (being in high school does leave one with a rather arbitrary amount of homework), but I've yet to lose a single game in any of those matches.
Oh, the hypocrisy! Over and over you stress that IBTG and I call you an idiot for your ideas, when in fact it is YOU who is trying to call the two of us idiots for our valid testing that we have kindly provided and even gone as far as to defend. Mayhap you should come back and talk to us some more after you've used our deck some?
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Honestly, the only thing I can think of that has emerged as a threat that your deck would be more able to deal with is BTS. This deck, as I have said has 8 maindeck answers to that card, as well as SDT and shuffle effects. This is a LOT of ways to deal with said problem card. I can not think of any other card that would realistically be a threat to the deck come Guildact release. People are saying Wreak Havok, but I'm not seeing it, it costs 4, and it's probably worse than Creeping Mold.
Really? I find that one of the best ways to modify a deck is by having a relevant discussion as to whether or not the strategy being proposed is a good one. I don't see how inserting a bunch of cards that were available to us before Guildpact is going to help us out against this "radically new metagame" that you keep talking about but not actually disclosing what you mean by it. Which cards do you fear in this new metagame that this deck would be unable to deal with? This new change is obviously in reacton to Guildpact being released, but all I see in the deck are three Burning-Tree Shamans and a few 5/5 for 4s, and a different approach to the deck. This deck essentially looks like an underpowered Ghazi-Glare.
I also make new decks, I don't just rabidly netdeck and try to uphold the status quo, I too try to make the best deck possible, regardless wether it goes against the established build of the deck. You mention the Japanese as being these great innovators, but if this build of the deck is so solid, why didn't they create it yet? Chorus of the Conclave + Fat doesn't seem that complicated, and the only new card you've added to the mix is Burning Tree Shaman, but if this is the correct version of the deck, then why didn't people switch to this deck instead of continuing with the Sunforger idea? Don't tell me that you were the first people to think of this idea. Again, if Burning Tree Shaman is the only thing that I should be worried about coming out of Guildpact, then I don't think I have much to worry about at all.
I keep hearing the mana argument, about how it costs too much mana to play and equip Sunforger, but I would argue that it's akin to Eternal Dragon. Sure it costs 12 mana to recur and play, but guess what, it's a powerful win condition. Its power comes from being difficult to deal with, I would argue that Sunforger's power comes from its ability to create card advantage, and tutor good instants into play. Sunforger now has two new great cards to tutor: Mortify and Electrolyse.
Please, identify the cards coming out of Guildpact that your deck has been built to avoid.
You still aren't understanding how Wildfire is to be used in the matchup. It's really a delicate card for you, as much as it is for them. There's plenty of times where it will kill them. But on the flipside, there's going to be times that Wildfireing will spell the end for you. However, Wildfire isn't something that either deck wants to power out as quickly as possible. You use it when it does more harm to them to you, or you absolutely need to.
In a "God" draw, I'd be laying a turn 3 Hierarch/Slum, turn 4 Kodama of the North Tree. But that's beside the point.
I did not at ALL say the best time to Wildfire them is after they've already hit me. I gave you a real life scenario where I was able to win despite losing 8 lands. It was nothing more than an example to show that Wildfire doesn't usually hurt me in the slightest.
The thing is, most often, I find, the ED player has maybe, 6 lands total at the end of a game unless they get swarmed. The rest is all in the Signets. Taking out 4 lands can really swing the game in your favor. Especially when it leaves them on zero lands, which does happen a good amount of the time.
Honestly... Some individuals are truly close-minded.
Just because only one new ARCHETYPE has appeared does not mean that it's the only thing Guildpact added to the format.
Which is exactly what IBTG and I did while we were TESTING our ideas in real environments to see whether or not our discussion on the proposed strategy was good. And guess what? In a real environment, where we weren't just hypothesizing but performing actual demonstrations of the deck, we found that our hypotheses were correct.
I've addressed that CLEARLY in prior posts. To summarize, new threats because of decks making additions with Guildpact cards require answers to those cards. We didn't run those answers before because the cards obviously weren't there.
Oh yes, because our deck looks EXACTLY like these (taken from the Comprehensive Guide):
4 Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
4 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
4 Brushland
5 Forest
4 Temple Garden
1 Plains
Creatures
2 Yosei, the Morning Star
3 Arashi, the Sky Asunder
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Selesnya Guildmage
4 Wood Elves
4 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Kodama of the North Tree
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Pithing Needle
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Congregation at Dawn
3 Glare of Subdual
2 Seed Spark
2 Greater Good
1 Kodama of the North Tree
2 Naturalize
2 Carven Caryatid
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Wrath of God
1 Kodama's Reach
2 Yosei, the Morning Star
3 Hokori, Dust Drinker
7 Forest
4 Temple Garden
4 Brushland
7 Plains
Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Seedborn Muse
3 Watchwolf
3 Loxodon Gatekeeper
2 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Hokori, Dust Drinker
3 Carven Caryatid
4 Devouring Light
4 Glare of Subdual
2 Ghostly Prison
3 Kodama’s Reach
3 Needle Storm
3 Promise of Bunrei
3 Viridian Shaman
3 Pithing Needle
3 Naturalize
ALL our list has in common with either of the above is that we run green cards, we run white cards, and we agree that Kodama of the North Tree and Loxodon Hierarch are good.
Yes, they must truly be the same deck.
Good. IBTG and I do the same. How does one make good decks? By testing. That's what we've done. Before you continue to recklessly trash our deck, maybe you should try using it some?
Because we'd all know if they'd have built it already, considering it's geared towards the post-GP format, right? Now that you mention it, why don't I just call all my buddies in Japan right now and ask them if they've built it?
Could it possibly be because the environment is not the same as it was pre-Guildpact? The format is considerably faster now, and I guarantee BTS won't be the only new deck to emerge out of Guildpact - the format is going to continue to get faster.
Your fervor for redundantly rehashing the same question over and over after it's been answered adequately is truly remarkable.
So... you're comparing a recurring 5/5 flyer with the ability to thin lands out of the deck to a piece of equipment that when used on a 1/1 critter that cost 5 mana that can tutor up some random red or white card?
Yeah, I'll try and pretend that makes any sense at all so I can follow you.
Alright! I'm going to start paying 11 mana so I can lay the 5/1 creature token beatdown!
God... Don't you remember the good old days when tutors came at a decent price? I suppose 9GWWR mana isn't too far shy of though.
1. Mortify is decent spot removal, but alone, not worth keeping Sunforger in the deck over. If I wanted to run it, I'd run 4 Mortify and use the extra spots that'd have been Sunforger for something that's not ridiculously expensive.
2. Are you honestly suggesting adding blue for Electrolyze? I'd run it in an existing UR deck, likely, but I'd not add blue to a deck for the card by any means.
To be honest, if I were running Sunforger in my deck still, I'd be afraid of Pokemon cards.
All joking aside, it really isn't any individual cards that I fear with this deck, aside from Burning-Tree Shaman.
A more apt description would be "concoctions of cards". RG-based aggro seems to be the new deck of choice with Guildpact. Cheap beats via Gruul men, their artifact removal, and their burn. Couple it with the fact that while those using Sunforger are taking the time to tutor out a lone piece of spot removal, they're smashing your face with 2-3 big critters, with more in their hand should you manage to remove them. Personally, I'd rather beat their big critters with my own that come out faster and smash face sooner than sit behind a piece of janky equipment.
I think, Alfred, the thing you're failing to remember in all this discussion is that the old Fungus Fires (meaning, version running Sunforger) was ALWAYS a metagame deck. It only ever did well because it could run into a format of RW Aggro that simply got run over by any sort of mass removal. It rolled over to most forms of control and cried for its mum.
However, the game has changed. It's no more a bunch of 1/1's and 2/2's that are running headlong at us. It's 3/4's and 5/5's and the same old deck isn't going to cut it.
That said, maybe our list isn't Fungus Fires. It is radically different. Call it 4 color control if you will. Whether or not is the same deck is irrelevant, fact of the matter is, with the new metagame, it outperforms the Fungus Fire list you prefer by miles.
EDIT -
Since you do seem so keen to attack the testing IBTG and I had, why don't you return the favor and enlighten us with your obviously better list? Looking through the thread I don't recall YOU having posted a list in the last month (if ever; I only looked a month back), so please, do give us your list that you've tested and explain to us exactly why it is better than ours in the post-Guilpact format.
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People, as in not just me, who have odds are tested the format and are saying that wreak havoc is being run. compare it to juzam for all I care, it wont change the fact that it is being run in 60 and 61 card standard magic libraries the world over...
I totally agree sir. Will and I have presented an argument opposing the inclusion of sunforger. We have systematically analyzed the weakness of the spell, and currently we dont not feel the card is warranted. Keep in mind sir as well though, I know have 30 some odd games of experience with the deck in the new format. Every claim I am making is solely on the information those games have provided for me. You can disagree as adimantly as you like, that does not change the fact that my opinions can at least be substantiated, whereas you can not even produce testing results.
I have seen a tremendous shift in the popularity of beats decks, which is radically different from the aggro-control hybrid, control dominated format that was ravnica t2. as I said before, we are not just making frivelous claims, we have actually played the format.
First an foremost Id rather not have a slum played against me, as then my only ways to deal with him come down to 7 cards in the deck, in fetters and wrath. Id rather not see cranial for my yosei, but the game would still be very winnable after that. Ideally speaking if the deck is viable, there wont be too many cards that are serious issue to its performance. Only time and testing will be able to further answer this question.
is that not the appropriate way to create a new deck, in a new format? I mean, you assess what the new card pool brings to the environment, you test like mad and based upon the data you find between analysis and playing, you taper your deck to survive the metagame. If you werent "reacting" to a new set of 165 brand new goodies, I wouldnt say you were much of a competitive magic player.
appearances can apparently be deceiving... Its obviously going to have a vague resemblance to a deck that runs the same colors and is considered aggro control, much like this one is. the same cards remain playable although the decks function entirely different. something you would pick up upon if you actually played the deck.
the deck Will and I are working on is not a netdeck... and I really take offense to that term. we are playing a game competitively, I invest a good sum of money to do so, so why not play to win? decks that are on the net are there because they are proven, tested and constructed by good players, if you dont want to play them, thats on you dude, not us. there is not status quo, if running quality spells is unacceptable to you, please by all means, run something you have come up with instead.
that is the most illogical comment you have made on this entire thread... perhaps the fact that the new t2 doesnt even rotate into legality until late Feb/early March has something to do with it, possibly because it is limited season right now and lastly I dont have Mashi Oiso or Katushiro Kori's home phone number so I can just call them up and gain access to their insight and decklists. do you?
sir, we dont run chorus of the conclave...
I wont even bother to quote your assanine rants about how this deck only has vague differences from the Fungus Fires (that I ..cough.. designed ..cough..) before states. they are very different, and you can tell just by looking at the list. arguing this point is becoming moot because it is an inalienable fact that is indisputable and painfully obvious to someone how has played both (which, I assure you sir, I have, check the first pages of this thread).
I dont see the parallel between a 5/5 recurring beat stick that thins your deck out of mana, to an extremely mana intensive artifact that if one putrefy/naturalize/terashi's grasp/tin street hooligan/shattering spree/pithind needle etc etc, you investments were all for not and you have no way of getting it back. I guess I fail to see the endless similarities :(.
Anon - control RGW
It only takes one deck to change a metagame. Look at what Friggorid did to extended. People changed their decks around after it won big a month or so ago.
So back to T2, that one deck could be RG beatdown or BW control. But then you also have to consider that 3 more dual lands were made in the new set so that makes a lot more color combinations a lot easier (BWG, RGW, UBW, RGB to name a few). I mean we can't predict what decks are going to be good. We didn't know Friggorid was going to win in extended untill it happens.
Personally, I don't care how many turns it's over. If you're paying 13 mana to tutor given instant spell and play it for free, I'd rather spend 4 mana in one turn dropping a 4/4 beatstick or 5 mana for a Kodama than use THIRTEEN MANA for a near pointless, overcosted, and narrow tutor.
EDIT - fixed typos
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Nevermind that if you lose your sunforgers via cranial extraction or just simply from removal, your deck will become incredibly inconsistent.
With the fat now in the deck, you're switching the game from you dealing with the opponent's threats to the opponent having to deal with YOUR threats.
You can argue about how that isn't a real "Fungus Fires" deck per se... but quite frankly, you can say the same thing about this deck's predecessor. Decks will continue to evolve, and this is the next stage in the evolution. Eventually, this too will phase out and over time, another generation will be born. It's how Magic works.
Now, the one thing I'm curious to see is how well EXACTLY this deck performs... some big claims have been made about how the deck loses very little and is standing up very strong against the competition. I haven't had the time to playtest the new format very much, so I'm only going off of sheer guessing, but I just don't see this deck ripping up everything that is thrown at it. *shrugs* I'm going to start playtesting as soon as possible, either with or against.
I don't doubt the credibility of the posters, that's not my intent... It's just I don't think the other decks have been adapted fully yet (or something to that effect). *shrugs* If either of you (Will or Brian) wouldn't mind doing a bit of playtesting against me in the near future, it'd be appreciated actually, as I have some of my own concoctions to try out
Play only against the best after all lol
The twins made essentially a new deck, with a lot of fat, expensive rares that have proven their worth on their own. their results are there, and the deck has won. has the deck won anything meaningful? has the meta developed to a point where their builds are going to stay constant? no. they've updated 4 times already. a deck they were praising as being so good, and so great, has changed 4 times in as many days. obvioulsy the work they've been doing has paid off and they are building a deck that can win.
but does that mean that the 2 or 3 of you have to beat up on the deck that this thread was originally intended for? there is a reason that the sunforger won tournaments, and that is because it was and still is a very good card. it's mana intensive. but why do you have to use it the way you are talking about every time? equip it to a creature you arleady have out, like an elder, or a wood elf, or a token... and SWING! let them bock your 5/1 beatstick, then burn your oppoenent, or kill their arty/enchant. the forger doesn't have to be a 26 mana lightning helix. a smart player will use it as the situation arises... not be obsessive about complete control and use it for every threat that drops.
finally... wildfire i think is very farfetched for this deck. when you have so many threats that die to it... it cant be that effective. elephants, north trees, scarabs, and not to mention your very fragile mana base all go to waste. if you are saying that you wildfired, after your ED opponent wildfired, and then still had enough mana to cast kodama... then you were playing a very POOR ED player. ED is the best deck in the format IMHO. you are never going to 'out-wildfire' him. in that, they will always have the tempo advantage unless you do something about their tempo. casting wildfire is not the answer. enchant/arty hate is tho. putrefy and mortify come to mind, not only does killing their enchants slow their tempo down, but speeds yours back up. i cant say running a card that kills 4 of his lands, and 4 of yoru lands and 4 to all your creatures is the best alternative. there must be another expensive rare that you can find for your deck.
and finally... can you two stop calling it your deck? i know that you two made it together, and test together... but i'm starting to feel that you two feel that anything everyone else says is wrong, unless you tested it. its great that you test together, but dont put everyone else down for their ideas on this public forum while sitting yourselves utop a pedastal. it only makes yourselves look less credible, and more ignorant.
-me
The reason for the changes is because we literally had JUST got the first build of the deck made the day we posted it. It was far from refined at the time, which is what we've been doing since.
I'll respond to the rest later, in the meantime, my mother needs to get on the computer, so I must be going.
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we arent beating up on anything... merely pointing out that we have created what we think is a further, more versatile evolution of the archetype.
It won some tournaments? which ones might those have been? to my knowledge I cant recall a deck running sunforger top 8ing at very many relevant tournaments at all be it states, worlds or otherwise.
regardless though, that was still 165 cards ago. What was good then, is not necessarily good now.
you dont... either way though you need to recognize that some things are still going to be the exact same. if you arent equipping and using the forger the first turn you cast it, it is a severe loss of tempo. If you dont want to lose this tempo you need to have 6RW, which seems a bit of a stretch for a tutor. then you add in the fact that forger isnt going to stay online for all that long, you are clearly playing with a suboptimal spell.
so on top of a hefty mana investment, you are saying the card is only good in specific situations... sorry, I have this thing about running spells that are good all the time.
why? it is the list that we came up with, right?
less credible and ignorant? how can that be the case? we are making arguments based upon more playtesting than anyone else who has come foward on this thread has. we arent putting anyone down, or the ideas and opinions they convey. It is clear however, some of us have tested and some of this havent. this is the competitive forum; and not to be to cliche but rule number 76: no excuses PLAY, like a champion. if you want to discuss something you have tested versus something I have tested, fine. If you want to argue with us, just to hear yourself talk, well obviously we are going to have a slight issue with that.
Anon - control RGW
Sorry to butt in here, but I have been following this feud / debate for days as I am a fan and supporter of my clanmate Alfred.
Anyway, it seems to me that at some point, testing between the same two people becomes redundant as you start to get used to each others' style of play. There are human factors to consider in matchups that go beyond a card-by-card "perfect" decklist, and it seems that you can only hone your deck to a wide variety of players and playing styles if you test that way.
I'm sure that the best players try to play unpredictably while always making solid play decisions, and I don't mean to imply that anyone is a bad player by any means, but I think that it would be more productive for this thread, and Fungus Fires players the board over, if the arguments and egos were set aside, and everyone started playtesting the various builds with different cards. If Sunforger seems suboptimal vs. a Burning-Tree Shaman, or if someone is telling you it is, makes no difference unless you test it and know for sure it is.
The level of eloquence in this thread is impressive, but despite that, it doesn't strike me as incredibly conducive to deck growth. It's just two obstinate parties, refusing to admit the other could be right, and refusing to test the other's build in the new environment.
These kinds of unfounded arguments used to run rampant across the Competitive threads, and I hope this doesn't herald their return.
Thanks, gentlemen.
welcome, welcome. Im not a member of any clan in particular, though if there was one that was founded on the basis of only making arguments when I had a reasonable amount of playtesting data to substantiate my claims, I would join that one in a second ;).
sir, when did either Will or myself say that we only played against each other? actually, ironically enough, none of our testing has come against each other. we both respect that we have our own ways of testing, with our own playtesting partners. I have been doing the same thing for years, ever since you could rector up a bargain, and as they say, " if it aint broke dont fix it though." this is a prime example of twisting the information that has been given to you in order for you to somehow discredit the postor. instead of patting Will and I on the back for providing playtesting results, you know are from two good players, you would rather sit her and argue about them, when you have none of your own. thats sort of like going into a battle of wits unarmed, when the two guys you are going to arguea against are holding atom bombs... as I have said, probably 1000 thousand times now on this web site; if you disagree with something we have TESTED thats fine, but you damn well have better tested the argument you are making in turn. because you disagree due to the name of the postor or if you just dont want to come with grips with the fact that the format is no longer what it is are not acceptable reasons to incite an argument or even a conversation at that point.
Just for reference though, I took this deck to the prerelease and sat down and played it against a few people, I know to be good players. ohh and alfred, guess what some of them were even... JAPANESE!!
sir, I agree with you, well slightly. it would be more productive if people shut their mouths and just started testing. tell me though, how can Will and I do anything more than we have already done. WE HAVE PROVIDED PLAYTESTING RESULTS!! alfred,ilvion,deranged hermit have not... seems like some people do need to stop suffering from a condition I like to call; running of the mouth, and do some damn testing like WILL AND I have ALREADY done.
Basically what you are saying is logically sound. If you dont have results, shut up and get some. Pretty much the same thing Will and I have been telling everyone who just wants to frivelously argue with us.
Its very easy to stare at your computer screen and and try to demerit the persons actually posting results, if you dont actually have any of your own wouldnt you say?
Sunforger seems suboptimal vs. a Burning-Tree Shaman, or if someone is telling you it is, makes no difference unless you test it and know for sure it is.
again, agreed, though we arent just saying it is bad because of BTS, but because of the way the format is developing. either way though, if you, or any of these people arguing with us, had picked up the deck they would know that, just play a friggin game. thats why Im so dumbfounded and aggrevated that this discussion is going any further, if you just played the deck you know that Will and I arent just coming up with random claims, we have played the deck.
thank you sir, I try.
unfounded... like the type argument someone makes when they have no data to back up their statements... if any of the aformentioned people have playtesting results, they would have posted it by now, whereas Will and I stayed congruent to the forum rules and posted ours. tell me how our argument is unfounded, if it is well represented in a clear, concise manner based on the premis of fact not opinion?
Ilvion.... I dont even know where to begin with you. In my last post I discussed the loss of tempo, and the unlikeliness that forger will stay online for you to spread the mana investment over many turns... perhaps, reading is the most secret tech of all ;).
Anon - control RGW
I have playtested.... induce any vommitting yet?
in your last post you give Kudos to Polyjak for telling people that if they dont have a viable argument or anything constructive to say, they shouldnt say anything. tell me sir, how is your post at all relevant to the discussion of this deck?
I have been saying that I have playtesting data for pages now because, I do... and yet, still coupled with that fact people try to argue with me that have none. perhaps, Im just not getting that message across.
my posts are hard to read? my suggestion sir, get a damn dictionary. Im one of the best writers on the site ;). as far as the color, my screen resolution makes it appear quite nicely :).
nope, no one had to say anything. do you realize that we arent any further in talking about this deck, if for the rest of the thread you ask ridiculous, illogical questions and then scoff at the answers the good players give you. that might fly over at manatap or wherever you just got booted from being a mod, this is MTGS and it doesnt fly here.
Anon - control RGW
Sunforger was barely useful in the old metagame, and Fungus Fires really wasn't a competitive deck, except against aggro decks..and even then, it was only good against Rw.
But now, with cards like Burning-Tree Shaman, Rumbling Slum, etc, Sunforger is *obviously* too slow...I can't even understand how anyone would debate this point. You can build an RG Aggro deck in less than 5 minutes(meaning that it won't be a refined or polished decklist at all), and play it against old versions of this and utterly wipe the floor with them. You'll be lucky if Sunforger ever comes online at all, and even when it does, Shaman says that you have to take 2 damage just to equip it and then find a card to cast with it. Just use common sense here. It's possible that RWG Control is still playable, but, not in the old 'Fungus Fire' forms.
thanks a lot everyone.
agreed on all counts. there really isnt much more to say on that topic. apparently it is a relatively accepted certainty amongst GOOD players, if other ones cant make that distinction, well, more players for us to stomp on our way to the top 8.
again, agreed on all counts.
agreed, in which case the deck with forger cant even win a matchup that is specifically noted as a cake walk... sweet.
agreed, and even if it does, there is less of a likelihood it will remain in said state for very long.
its a futile attempt, I have been asking for 3 pages now :(.
Im sure it will come as no suprise... I agree.
Jive turkey, I can pm you a list if you want, but at this point Im not about to share any more of my work with people who dont appreciate it.
could you guys also stop referring to us as "the twins?" the only thing will and I have in common is being good magic players that playtest. that analogy was weak from the get go.
sir, what in the HELL are you talking about? let the way I write go, and get back to the deck... that is if you actually have a relevant thought to provide.
well, you are the only user who whines about it. not to mention, you can obviously read it well enough to critique how I write... basically, you missed the irony in what I said. essentially, I dont care how it comes up on your monitor, I can read it just fine, and thats all that matters. I have posted in that color for well over 8 months now, and well obviously enough people can read my posts, I am after all ahem... BEST STANDARD STRATEGIST OF 2005 ;). you havent added anything to this discussion, so why would I care if you can read my posts?
I dont see you, or many other people involved with this discussion playtesting ;). at least my arguments are intelligent and have some basis of fact. whereas, yours seem to be more the kind that come from your anal cavity. stop whining, discuss the deck or dont even bother posting.
Chopperdave, the portion of your post directed at me is just one really, really long run-on sentence. could you break that up into a readable portrayl of your ideas? either way though, wasnt apos, the former member who is know banned because of his stupidity? doesnt seem like anything we should be discussing now. I will say though, I think will and I get the rules slightly relaxed for us when it comes to posting decklists, as we are senior members and have been playing the game for a while. not trying to be cocky, but if you see my name or will's name next to thread author and then you saw something that apos or some scrub came up with, Im sure just on names alone you would expect to find a competitive deck under our names, whereas god only knows what you will find elsewhere.
Anon - control RGW
I kind of see where the guy is coming from. I mean here he is doing all this work playtesting the deck and posting the results, and then you just come along and say it sucks without using actual evidence (i.e testing of your own) to back it up.
I mean, if you guys have tested his list and found that its complete crap, post the results. You are arguing just based on speculation. If you bring actual facts on to the table we might have something here.
If you dont want to test his list, test your own list and argue that its better.
I hate to take sides in this debate because I havn't tested the deck either, so Im not going to bother trying to argue without facts, but i've been reading the past page an a half of arguement and you have been arguing more on each other rather than the deck itself.
Sunforger is a neat card. its one of those cards with a really cool effect, and you want it to work good, the idea behind it is exciting..but unfortunately its not worth the investment most of the time. If it cost 2 to play, 2 to equip then yes maybe. ITs not worth the mana just to have it blown up. If it cost 2 to play, 2 to equip, like a jitte, then yes maybe. I decided to dust off the ole fungus fires deck, and make some of the switches suggested, and I find them to be sufficient changes to better the deck, post GP. IF anyone wants to continue testing Fungus Fires V.'05 fly at 'er...but i dont see how its better than this new version...
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In the end, I'd like to thank first and foremost, Cyan, for being able to come in completely unbiased on the matter and lay out an opinion that can't truly be refuted.
As for a most current list, I'm working on it. The next week or so, I'm slammed for homework though, so I probably won't get any major testing till Saturday.
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4x Temple Garden
4x Sacred Foundry
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
3x Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
4x Godless Shrine
4x Overgrown Tomb
2x Stomping Ground
4x Dark Confidant
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
3x Nekrataal
4x Loxodon Hierarch
2x Ghost Council of Orzhova
//Spells (18):
3x Sunforger
2x Seed Spark
3x Char
4x Lightning Helix
3x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Mortify
3x Rumbling Slum
2x Seed Spark
3x Cranial Extraction
I wanted to add more creatures that could play two roles. Dark Confidant for instance is excellent against control, can pick up Jittes early, slips under counterwalls, and generally must be killed early to avoid you getting a lot of card advantage. The curve also tops out at 4, so there isn't too much worry about losing life (there's also life gain).
Nekrataal actually came to me rather recently, and it has been fantastic. I have noticed that even with the addition of Guildpact (and Orzhov), Black has been rather absent, and Nekrataal gives you a good combat creature as well as a way to deal with Melokus, Slums, BTS, WW + Zoo creatures and a plethora of other creatures I can't think of right now. It also has GREAT synergy with Jitte, because of first strike, and is a pretty good blocker on top of that.
Ghost Council is also one of the best creatures to come out of Guildpact, and the synergy that he has with the rest of the deck is astounding. There are enough other creatures in the deck to abuse his ability should you cast him earlier on, but one of the most savage combos is him and Vitu Ghazi. He can blink in and out avoiding removal while draining life, blocking all with 0 card disadvantage. The manabase is also solid enough to cast him consistantly.
Hierarch. This probably doesn't need too much explaination, because it's a solid threat, and it helps a lot against aggro.
Umezawa's Jitte is my newest addition to the deck, and is probably neccisary. You can attach it to a STE, Nekrataal, Hierarch or Confidant and it cleans up against both aggro and control decks. Also, it obviously is good against decks packing thier own Jittes.
Helix, Char, Mortify and Seed Spark are all removal spells that Sunforger can fetch, and are good spells to cast on their own.
Notible omissions:
Wrath of God: Though powerful, I think that with a higher creature base it isn't as powerful as it was before. I also think that it doesn't pack enough punch against other control decks.
Godo, Bandit Warlord: Too slow, and too high a casting cost to run in the deck.
Kodama's Reach: With black added, and the need for more duals in the manabase it needed to be dropped. It also doesn't help out enough against aggressive decks to warrant an inclusion, and doesn't help your board position against Control decks enough.
Sensei's Divining Top: Though it has alright synergy with Dark Confidant, the curve is low enough so that Confidant won't be hurting you all that much. Less shuffle effects and the fact that Confidant has taken it's role as the draw engine in the deck mean that it's time is up.
What I like about my newest incarnation of the deck is that it has a more powerful midgame, and IMO a better lategame than Fungus Fires has had in the past. You still have the power of Sunforger in the late game, often sealing the victory.
Feedback is welcome.
Alfred, this is not a personal attack at you, but what were you trying to do here? Just looking at this version makes your control match first, they can pretty much sit there and wait for you to take 20 damage. 18 shocklands???? No offense, but that isn't going to work very well when you don't want to take damage. Dark Confidant further adds to your pain, running down your life total and Char hurts you even more. You might as well start the game at 10 life. Even more unfortunately, the cards that this deck is build around, you need that kind of heavy pain mana base. Almost none of the cards in your deck can be effectively used with just 1 color of mana. The Ghost Council is good, espcially in combo with Vitu-Ghazi, but it is going to be quite hard to hit that exact 4 cost. I have nothing against the addition of black, but not this heavy. Nekrataal and Ghost Council require too much black mana. Heirarch and Helix help to offset the pain, but I don't think it is quite enough.
As for suggestions, cut the ghost council and dark confident, it will be far too costly in a deck that is slow, especially with Faith's Fetters and the random Pillory of the Sleepless in the format. This version should probably go towards GBw rock, or replace ghost council, nekrataal, and confidant with more efficient creatures. I applaud the idea, but it just isn't going to work.
If you want to keep sunforger that badly I think you need to take out white or black.
It is completely incompetent against Kokusho, the Evening Star, Grave-Shell Scarab, Dark Confidant, Kagemaro, First to Suffer, and every other black critter that might hit the field.
Not that I'm calling your list solid by any means (I had time to spare for about 5 games with it), but Putrefy would be a better choice than Nekrataal by miles.
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