I swear some people are so stupid. This deck is not tier 1, its a metagame deck, if you expect >50% aggro, use it and you will win at least 80% of your games.
And thank you for your glorious input.
Stands and applauds AoD's ability to add nothing to a discussion.
So no back to the matter at hand. I agree with Cyan's take on the matter at hand. Alot of good decks do bad at friday night magic in my oppinion where rouge decks run rampant. So if the same decks do amazing at worlds then we will have a legitimate teir system as it stands right now we don't.
So this deck isn't teir 1 right now because nothing is yet, but I think that it will be so more likely than not my build from the last page is what I am gonna play in the current type 2 setting.
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All Praises be to Topher patron saint of sig banners thanx for the awesome banner.
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"Hate is just a special kind of love we give to those who suck" - Me
Well, I took this to Arkansas States, got 12th place. My record was 3-0-3. I went undefeated. And two of those matches I had it. I had Firemane on the field and at least two active vitus. But when they call time, they call time. This is such a damn slow ass deck. Either way, if you have more than 50 minutes rounds its decent, but under that and you can't play a full 3 games.
After a few people who screamed down anyone who suggested anything different in these forums, I tested pretty close to this list (including right down to the Tatsusma). I find that this list is probably the best list (although still seems to have the problems with Gifts that don't make me completely confident in this list). The difference that I had was that I didn't have both the Godos and the Firemane in my list, and that has been mentioned before and I think that its the best idea.
I will say that I think the sideboard is less then optimal in my opinion, and do question why he would need 7 dragons....
To anyone testing this deck, my suggestion would be ignore the HSR's, ignore the Flames of the Blood Hand, and just run this list. It runs so much better then the other lists.
I thought the deck wasnt tier eitha. But i also thought it would get better "positions" (in the top8s) coz "nobody" would expect it...... i guess i was wrong here.
it wasnt as much as... nobody would expect them ... as nobody expected to see so few aggro decks.... seriously NY was exculisively control.... i think its the first states that has happened
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Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
it wasnt as much as... nobody would expect them ... as nobody expected to see so few aggro decks.... seriously NY was exculisively control.... i think its the first states that has happened
It happens in Arizona almost every single year...I just moved from there, that's why I was surprised and disagreed when people kept telling me that States is always an 'aggro metagame', because it's never been an aggro meta for me(Affinity doesn't count)
A little splash of black for 2-3 nightmare voids works wonders against control i've found, especially when you run SDtops, the dredge actually becomes a quasi-shuffle effect. Also of note is that you can add Graveshell scarab with black too...
A little splash of black for 2-3 nightmare voids works wonders against control i've found, especially when you run SDtops, the dredge actually becomes a quasi-shuffle effect. Also of note is that you can add Graveshell scarab with black too...
Running 3 colours and splashing a 4th? I know Green is good at colour screwing, but I'm not sure about THAT good....but if we do decide to go down this path, remember that Putrefy, while not being Forger-ized, is awesomely good. Arti/creature D, which is pretty important these days.
If you can prove that the inclusion of black would be beneficial rather than hindering (note the Extractions in SB as well), then I for one would accept it...also, in the case of colour-screwing, why not BoP? 1 mana fixer, sure it dies to many many things, but it helps early game for 2nd turn Reach or Forger or whatever...just wondering why not?
Quote from str8 »
i still think sudden impact should go sb, maybe adamaro's gaze too, stick a boseiju and MUC has a real problem.
Boseiju's almost an auto-include if MUC is gonna be big, which undoubtedly it is. It's practically free uncounterability, because most of the life is netted back anyways. And the Gaze/Impact seem suited, but kinda wierd at the same time...it really sucks though when for some reason they empty out their hand. MUC does often have a full hand, so it is really like a sudden "BOOM" and they're down 4-5 life points in one swoop. Sounds awesome.I'm tempted to give it a shot, if MUC becomes big around here. I'm hoping to go to an FNM sometime soon to find out what's happening. Until then, it's up to other to speculate further.
Alright, so I've been reviewing a few things from what I saw at states/what's been posted, and a few things that should be constant in about every list is coming to mind.
-Enough burn to kill your opponent without swinging a critter. This is usually best as 4 Lightning Helix, 1 Char, and 1 Flames of the Blood Hand.
-4 Sakura-Tribe Elder and 4 Kodama's Reach in every deck. Once the R/G dual land comes out, I'd expect the Reachs will become Wood Elves. But that's down the road.
-4 Wrath of God and 3-4 Faith's Fetter's in every deck. They're just so good for agro.
-3 Sunforger and 3 Sensei's Divining Top in every deck. If you're running Godo then the Sunforgers can be less, but you need at least 3 tops.
-Either 2 Firemane Angel or 2 Shard Phoenix. I'm leaning a little more towards Phoenix atm.
So with that, a rough decklist would look like so.
2 Shard Phoenix
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Char
4 Devouring Light
4 Faith's Fetters
1 Flames of the Blood Hand
4 Kodama's Reach
4 Lightning Helix
2 Seed Spark
4 Wrath of God
Boseiju's almost an auto-include if MUC is gonna be big, which undoubtedly it is. It's practically free uncounterability, because most of the life is netted back anyways. And the Gaze/Impact seem suited, but kinda wierd at the same time...it really sucks though when for some reason they empty out their hand. MUC does often have a full hand, so it is really like a sudden "BOOM" and they're down 4-5 life points in one swoop. Sounds awesome.I'm tempted to give it a shot, if MUC becomes big around here. I'm hoping to go to an FNM sometime soon to find out what's happening. Until then, it's up to other to speculate further.
but the cool thing isnt that it can be used against MUC exclusively but it can deal massive amounts to gifts... and other controls. not to mension they can be *sniffed* out with the forger.
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I cant agree with any man who thinks char and flames are a 1 of in this deck, especially when we have already pointed out MUC and Gifts to be problem matchups.
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Hats off to [BB18 & IBTG], you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
Ok, i didn't read all 300 posts but i got the jist. Whatabout JunkTroller and/or Kami of Old Stone for some more critters. junktroller/forger sounds good. I was toying with the idea of using Mind Bend to change either red or white on forger to blue to go get counters... casting Rewind for RW sounds like fun.. Granted the deck is already really full. I'll say this much this Archtype is gonna get stupid once block is finished. Just think all the guild instants under 4cc in Guildpact will be fetchable..
Like someone said adding a 4th color might be silly. But if you have counters and troller/forger you could run alot of 1-ofs.
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Sorry to drag up a reasonably old post (I just read through the last few pages of the thread), but wanted to point out that this play was illegal - edict says 'target opponent' so he can't choose himself and sac the kokusho to kill it / gain life / cause you to lose life.
Even when we think we know the cards I always ensure I read the card my opponent plays. Losing sucks, but losing to your own mistakes is worse because it's something you have in your power to correct.
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DCI Level 2 Judge.
Currently playing: Mono White Control.
Ok, i didn't read all 300 posts but i got the jist. Whatabout JunkTroller and/or Kami of Old Stone for some more critters. junktroller/forger sounds good. I was toying with the idea of using Mind Bend to change either red or white on forger to blue to go get counters... casting Rewind for RW sounds like fun.. Granted the deck is already really full. I'll say this much this Archtype is gonna get stupid once block is finished. Just think all the guild instants under 4cc in Guildpact will be fetchable..
Like someone said adding a 4th color might be silly. But if you have counters and troller/forger you could run alot of 1-ofs.
The Troller is good in theory...but in practise, there's more than enough hate for both artifacts and creatures, so they're going to either a) be a 4-of or b) you're going to have to make the most of the time they're there. If it stays then it'd be awesome, cause infnite spells...heck now that I think about it that would have won me more than a few games. It does seem like a good idea but the deck is full enough so I'm not going to add them.
4 colours is mildly acceptable, but adding a 5th is...well, insane IMO. If you're running instants of every colour, you're practically relying on Sunforger to pull out the win (if you want to get the spells via the Forger) - and even then you need Mind Bend to make it work, which is throwing in a bit too much. Forger isn't played in this deck to win games, it's there to help out whenever you grab one, albeit rather well. As soon as people realise you're running blue/black instants, they're going ot name Sunforger with their Extractions (assuming this is a Black deck) and in one fell swoop your game plan crumbles...it's fun, but very very risky. Sticking with the R/W/g seems good enough.
i've been running 4 colors for weeks now (black for 2 md nightmare voids and sb cranials) and i think i've run into color screw about.... nope, hasnt happend yet. If you run 4 STE and 4 Kodama's Reach, you shouldnt have a problem, and if you run SDtops as well, then i'd be astonished if it ever happened. Against control this deck can survive plenty of turns (because they're, well, slow like us), so finding the right mana to get the voids going is never a problem (remember its only one black, that means you only need to change one land) 1 swamp + 8 fixers = plenty.
Also, I dont think putrefy is necessary, burn works just as good and can hit the face.
ibe been playtesting this quite a bit over the last few days but the decks are becoming redundant. i hardly get a super competetive deck archetype. anyway, here are my results. before i forget...i, as many of you probably have too, saw Spuds comment on the kudzu-gro forum and i disagree completely. this deck is much more competetive than tier 4 as he claims. also i'm sure that IBTG and most other contributors to this forum have much more insight to this archetype and others than someone with such a seemingly miniscule scope of expertise. i just wanted to point that out so as to eliminate all of whatever credibility and/or validity Spuds had to begin with. i'm not usually one to call people out but that statement was both malicious and in poor taste. back to the results.
Dredge Pact: 3-0
Glare of Subdual: 2-0
Mirror(subpar): 2-0
Gifts: 2-1
Rock (BG Control): 6-2
U/B Mill: 3-0
Enduring Ideal: 2-0
Various Rogue Jank: 5-1
if you want more comprehensive/detailed results i would be happy to elaborate.
Running 3 colours and splashing a 4th? I know Green is good at colour screwing, but I'm not sure about THAT good....but if we do decide to go down this path, remember that Putrefy, while not being Forger-ized, is awesomely good. Arti/creature D, which is pretty important these days.
If you can prove that the inclusion of black would be beneficial rather than hindering (note the Extractions in SB as well), then I for one would accept it...also, in the case of colour-screwing, why not BoP? 1 mana fixer, sure it dies to many many things, but it helps early game for 2nd turn Reach or Forger or whatever...just wondering why not?
I think adding the fourth color is exactly what this deck needs. Black adds the resilience against control that its been looking for. Plus, this deck already has such an easy time with aggro that the extra color is very rarely a setback.
I took the version below to Washington States in Seattle. I got 9th, missing the top 8 not on record (it was the same as 6 other people in the top 8) but by the slimmest margin of op win.
Almost everyone gave me weird looks when they saw it at first. Suffice it to say, Grave-Shell Scarab combined with Sunforger is the four colored face of doom.
With black, and a different configuration of burn and creatures, it allows for a better sideboard and stronger maindeck. Some people asked be about the lack of Putrefy. All of the burn can become creature remocal vs. aggro (plus all of the white removal), that makes putrefy just another removal spell that can't be aplied to someones life total (and I already have 11 of those, which is plenty). Plus the only artifacts really neccesary to remove are Umezawa's Jitte and Sunforger, and Faith's Fetters and Seed Spark (which is retrievable with Sunforger) did the job.
As changes, it would be to take out 2 Firemane Angels for either more burn or perhaps a couple of Shard Phoenix . Oh and use Scour instead of Nikko-onna (it wasn't a problem at all, I just like scour better).
You may wonder at the whole 61 cards thing... Well in the 6th round, I beat mill by having one card left in my library. By runinng 61 cards I can give myself one extra turn against very quick Glimpse/Twicast shenanegins. Plus it evened out the mana base just fine (I was only mana screwed one game, bound to happen at least once).
Running 3 Vitu-Ghazi ended up being plenty, Faith's fetters were generally kept to my Sunforgers. Miren, the Moaning Well was pretty useful for some lifegain in a pinch (and to protect my Firemane Angels from getting removed from the game).
The sideboard ended up working very well for all matches except Gifts (the only game I lost). The cranial extractions are an obvious choice against many control and combo matches. The nightmare voids were total champions against mill, Maga, and ESPECIALLY mono-blue and couple have been against Gifts if I had drawn them. Shred Memory is obviously for Grave-Shell Scarabs and to remove Gifts targets in that matchup. Nikko-Onna was a toss up between that and scour, the nice thing about Nikko-Onna is that I can recur it and it can be equipped with Sunforger . Tempest of Light is obviously for the Enduring Ideal matchup (as well as Nikko-Onna), works well because it is tutorable with Sunforger. The blazes were for any control matchups, to replace a some of the Wrath of Gods (unless they were runnning Meloku). Those ended up being champs, as they could push through an extra 10 damage or so in games that went long. Plus they were useful against Maga Combo if they were unwise enough to let me untap with Heartbeat in play.
Some people have suggested running Birds of Paradise. I think its an interesting option, as you can potentialy drop a turn 2 Sunforger and equip it on your flier on turn three, but then again its not only another vulnerable creature, but your own Wrath of God will take it down, and thats not good for the card advantage your looking for in Wrath.
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Team Dorito Challenge
WA State Standard Champion 2007
Constructed Rating: 1935
What about loxadon hierarch ? Why don't you run him ? IMO a really solid card for this kind of deck.
the point of the deck is to destroy/remove from the game any creatures your opponant plays with cards like Lightning helix, devouring light and Shard Phoenix and then quickly Bash there face in with firemane angel and honestly why would you want to waste a couple slots of deck space that could be used for removel just to regerate a couple creatures that you can return to play or your hand anyway by using there activated abilities!
it's a good suggestion but it just isn't really for this deck!
the point of the deck is to destroy/remove from the game any creatures your opponant plays with cards like Lightning helix, devouring light and Shard Phoenix and then quickly Bash there face in with firemane angel and honestly why would you want to waste a couple slots of deck space that could be used for removel just to regerate a couple creatures that you can return to play or your hand anyway by using there activated abilities!
it's a good suggestion but it just isn't really for this deck!
Ok I have been running fire for a while now and I believe the addition of 4 loxodon hierarch s to my deck made it emensely better. Also I added 1 Godo, Bandit Warlord to fetch my forgers for me. The deck seems to run smoothly for me without any real hitches as of yet so here is my current deck list...
The Deck is amazingly Resiliant. It has amazing Aggro Matchups and good matchups against control as well.
R/W Aggro: This matchup is basically a bye for my deck. If I dram any of my control aspects I win.
U/B agg Con: Maybe this guy is just a bad player but he is running the same deck list that took first at states down to the net-deckked card. I haven't really had much trouble bashing his face in because the city tree is amazing in this matchup. Helix, and yamabushi's flames are all-stars in this matchup as well seeing as how all the creatures other than moroii are less than 3 toughness pretty much.
G/B Rock: Game 1 pretty much comes down to the draw that each player gets. With him playing a scarab and me flaming it out of exhistence. And Swinging with sunforgered tokens or loxy or godo. Game 2 I board in the ivory masks to stop cranial. Then the matchup gets so pretty for me.
Gifts: Hmmm...Yamabushi's Flames is good in this matchup. This is pretty much a 50/50 split.
Enduring Ideal: I board in tempest of light and scour and then say GG and move on to the next round.
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All Praises be to Topher patron saint of sig banners thanx for the awesome banner.
Official member of the Orzhov Syndicate
"Hate is just a special kind of love we give to those who suck" - Me
sorry i've been away from the forum for so long, ive been workin on my legacy deck in the meantime. well here are those match descriptions like i said i would post. I'm sorry if some of these are rather vague but i played these matched two weeks ago so i'll try and remember them best i can.
Dredge Pact: I played three games against the deck, game 1 i didn't even know what i was playing against. I thought it was a subpar rock deck. the only threats that i saw were a couple hyppies and a scarab. all of which were quickly dispatched with either lighning helix or devouring light. game 2 saw an early pact which gave me some problems until i found a seed spark. i didnt bother to side in anything since i had no idea what he was playing except that it was green and black. again he had trouble keeping creatures on the table because of multiple wraths on my behalf. eventually i burned him to death and chipped him with a couple of saprolings to kill him. for game 3 i sided in scour, found it with a sunforger and he quickly conceded.
Glare of Subdual: I will start by saying that this was a really really difficult match. We each played 20+ turns before each game was resolved. i would start out with early threats that were easily matched and he would gain board supremacy. at one point he had me down to 6 life with about 7 creatures on the table. the game lasted so long that i drew into sunforger and used it twice in one turn to hit him for 14 points of damage (Flames + H2R)to end the match. game two was basically the same thing but i sided in more enchantment hate to make my life easier but he never found the Glare of Subdual. he didn't start out as fast and i flew over his creatues with an angel to finish him off.
Mirror: His version was pretty crappy so i dont even know if i should take these results seriously. he was forced to keep my creatures at bey with his burn spells and i sent mine at his head since he had an empty board except for a bunch of lands and a fettered sunforger. i played the same strategy game 2 except i took out a couple of wraths since i knew i could burn anything he would throw out at me and i sided in more burn.
Gifts: The previous result is actually incorrect. the matches were 1:2 in favor of gifts. I was only able to beat him one match in which by the time he drew into gifts i had him far enough along that he could not recover even though he was able to get a kokusho into play with a footsteps of the goryo in hand. the other two games he beat me as in any other typical gifts match. i didnt have much by way of a sideboard against gifts and it showed.
Rock: See dredge-pact above. Rock matches went very similar except for i had the problem with Putrefy that i didn't seem to run into with Pact. The matches that i won were by way of spot removal/faith's fetters.
I was just curious if this deck is still being played by lotsa people. I havent seen it in my area in quite a while. Do you think people gave up the deck after a poor showing at champs? Also has anyone found a way to shore up the matchup vs mono blue and/or gifts?.....It's been a week since the last post and I'm just wondering how this deck is doing...
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And thank you for your glorious input.
Stands and applauds AoD's ability to add nothing to a discussion.
So no back to the matter at hand. I agree with Cyan's take on the matter at hand. Alot of good decks do bad at friday night magic in my oppinion where rouge decks run rampant. So if the same decks do amazing at worlds then we will have a legitimate teir system as it stands right now we don't.
So this deck isn't teir 1 right now because nothing is yet, but I think that it will be so more likely than not my build from the last page is what I am gonna play in the current type 2 setting.
All Praises be to Topher patron saint of sig banners thanx for the awesome banner.
Official member of the Orzhov Syndicate
"Hate is just a special kind of love we give to those who suck" - Me
I was just saying that States is not indicative of anything other than what to expect random scrubs to take to FNM.
3 Faith’s Fetters
4 Kodama’s Reach
3 Sunforger
1 Tatsumasa, the Dragon’s Fang
2 Godo, Bandit Warlord
4 Lightning Helix
3 Devouring Light
2 Char
2 Seed Spark
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Firemane Angel
4 Wrath of God
4 Temple Garden
3 Sacred Foundry
4 Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
4 Forest
2 Plains
2 Mountain
2 Karplusan Forest
3 Brushland
4 Yosei, the Morning Star
3 Ryusei, the Falling Star
3 Pyroclasm
4 Scour
After a few people who screamed down anyone who suggested anything different in these forums, I tested pretty close to this list (including right down to the Tatsusma). I find that this list is probably the best list (although still seems to have the problems with Gifts that don't make me completely confident in this list). The difference that I had was that I didn't have both the Godos and the Firemane in my list, and that has been mentioned before and I think that its the best idea.
I will say that I think the sideboard is less then optimal in my opinion, and do question why he would need 7 dragons....
To anyone testing this deck, my suggestion would be ignore the HSR's, ignore the Flames of the Blood Hand, and just run this list. It runs so much better then the other lists.
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it wasnt as much as... nobody would expect them ... as nobody expected to see so few aggro decks.... seriously NY was exculisively control.... i think its the first states that has happened
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It happens in Arizona almost every single year...I just moved from there, that's why I was surprised and disagreed when people kept telling me that States is always an 'aggro metagame', because it's never been an aggro meta for me(Affinity doesn't count)
just kidding.... (boy that was irrelevant)
i still think sudden impact should go sb, maybe adamaro's gaze too, stick a boseiju and MUC has a real problem.
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Running 3 colours and splashing a 4th? I know Green is good at colour screwing, but I'm not sure about THAT good....but if we do decide to go down this path, remember that Putrefy, while not being Forger-ized, is awesomely good. Arti/creature D, which is pretty important these days.
If you can prove that the inclusion of black would be beneficial rather than hindering (note the Extractions in SB as well), then I for one would accept it...also, in the case of colour-screwing, why not BoP? 1 mana fixer, sure it dies to many many things, but it helps early game for 2nd turn Reach or Forger or whatever...just wondering why not?
Boseiju's almost an auto-include if MUC is gonna be big, which undoubtedly it is. It's practically free uncounterability, because most of the life is netted back anyways. And the Gaze/Impact seem suited, but kinda wierd at the same time...it really sucks though when for some reason they empty out their hand. MUC does often have a full hand, so it is really like a sudden "BOOM" and they're down 4-5 life points in one swoop. Sounds awesome.I'm tempted to give it a shot, if MUC becomes big around here. I'm hoping to go to an FNM sometime soon to find out what's happening. Until then, it's up to other to speculate further.
~JoInTsMoKa~
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Block / T2 Constructed:
UBU/B ControlUB
WHonourable WeeniesW
-Enough burn to kill your opponent without swinging a critter. This is usually best as 4 Lightning Helix, 1 Char, and 1 Flames of the Blood Hand.
-4 Sakura-Tribe Elder and 4 Kodama's Reach in every deck. Once the R/G dual land comes out, I'd expect the Reachs will become Wood Elves. But that's down the road.
-4 Wrath of God and 3-4 Faith's Fetter's in every deck. They're just so good for agro.
-3 Sunforger and 3 Sensei's Divining Top in every deck. If you're running Godo then the Sunforgers can be less, but you need at least 3 tops.
-Either 2 Firemane Angel or 2 Shard Phoenix. I'm leaning a little more towards Phoenix atm.
So with that, a rough decklist would look like so.
2 Shard Phoenix
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Char
4 Devouring Light
4 Faith's Fetters
1 Flames of the Blood Hand
4 Kodama's Reach
4 Lightning Helix
2 Seed Spark
4 Wrath of God
3 Sunforger
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Brushland
2 Karplusan Forest
2 Sacred Foundary
4 Forest
3 Mountain
3 Plains
4 Temple Garden
4 Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
I think the deck will be good, but it still needs a bit more time to see how good.
but the cool thing isnt that it can be used against MUC exclusively but it can deal massive amounts to gifts... and other controls. not to mension they can be *sniffed* out with the forger.
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Anon - control RGW
Like someone said adding a 4th color might be silly. But if you have counters and troller/forger you could run alot of 1-ofs.
"One Day Reason and Sanity will rule the World....."
"Unfortunately that day will be the day after all us Homo Sapiens explode in fiery balls of death from a Thermonuclear Hell..."
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Even when we think we know the cards I always ensure I read the card my opponent plays. Losing sucks, but losing to your own mistakes is worse because it's something you have in your power to correct.
Currently playing: Mono White Control.
The Troller is good in theory...but in practise, there's more than enough hate for both artifacts and creatures, so they're going to either a) be a 4-of or b) you're going to have to make the most of the time they're there. If it stays then it'd be awesome, cause infnite spells...heck now that I think about it that would have won me more than a few games. It does seem like a good idea but the deck is full enough so I'm not going to add them.
4 colours is mildly acceptable, but adding a 5th is...well, insane IMO. If you're running instants of every colour, you're practically relying on Sunforger to pull out the win (if you want to get the spells via the Forger) - and even then you need Mind Bend to make it work, which is throwing in a bit too much. Forger isn't played in this deck to win games, it's there to help out whenever you grab one, albeit rather well. As soon as people realise you're running blue/black instants, they're going ot name Sunforger with their Extractions (assuming this is a Black deck) and in one fell swoop your game plan crumbles...it's fun, but very very risky. Sticking with the R/W/g seems good enough.
~JoInTsMoKa~
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Block / T2 Constructed:
UBU/B ControlUB
WHonourable WeeniesW
Also, I dont think putrefy is necessary, burn works just as good and can hit the face.
Dredge Pact: 3-0
Glare of Subdual: 2-0
Mirror(subpar): 2-0
Gifts: 2-1
Rock (BG Control): 6-2
U/B Mill: 3-0
Enduring Ideal: 2-0
Various Rogue Jank: 5-1
if you want more comprehensive/detailed results i would be happy to elaborate.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
I think adding the fourth color is exactly what this deck needs. Black adds the resilience against control that its been looking for. Plus, this deck already has such an easy time with aggro that the extra color is very rarely a setback.
I took the version below to Washington States in Seattle. I got 9th, missing the top 8 not on record (it was the same as 6 other people in the top 8) but by the slimmest margin of op win.
3 Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Battlefield Forge
1 Karplusan Forest
1 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Mountain
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Grave-Shell Scarab
2 Firemane Angel
Spells 29
4 Wrath of God
4 Faith's Fetters
3 Devouring Light
4 Kodama's Reach
4 Lightning Helix
3 Yamabushi's Flame
3 Char
3 Sunforger
1 Seed Spark
3 Cranial Extraction
3 Nightmare Void
2 Shred Memory
3 Nikko-Onna
1 Tempest of Light
3 Blaze
Almost everyone gave me weird looks when they saw it at first. Suffice it to say, Grave-Shell Scarab combined with Sunforger is the four colored face of doom.
With black, and a different configuration of burn and creatures, it allows for a better sideboard and stronger maindeck. Some people asked be about the lack of Putrefy. All of the burn can become creature remocal vs. aggro (plus all of the white removal), that makes putrefy just another removal spell that can't be aplied to someones life total (and I already have 11 of those, which is plenty). Plus the only artifacts really neccesary to remove are Umezawa's Jitte and Sunforger, and Faith's Fetters and Seed Spark (which is retrievable with Sunforger) did the job.
As changes, it would be to take out 2 Firemane Angels for either more burn or perhaps a couple of Shard Phoenix . Oh and use Scour instead of Nikko-onna (it wasn't a problem at all, I just like scour better).
You may wonder at the whole 61 cards thing... Well in the 6th round, I beat mill by having one card left in my library. By runinng 61 cards I can give myself one extra turn against very quick Glimpse/Twicast shenanegins. Plus it evened out the mana base just fine (I was only mana screwed one game, bound to happen at least once).
Running 3 Vitu-Ghazi ended up being plenty, Faith's fetters were generally kept to my Sunforgers. Miren, the Moaning Well was pretty useful for some lifegain in a pinch (and to protect my Firemane Angels from getting removed from the game).
The sideboard ended up working very well for all matches except Gifts (the only game I lost). The cranial extractions are an obvious choice against many control and combo matches. The nightmare voids were total champions against mill, Maga, and ESPECIALLY mono-blue and couple have been against Gifts if I had drawn them. Shred Memory is obviously for Grave-Shell Scarabs and to remove Gifts targets in that matchup. Nikko-Onna was a toss up between that and scour, the nice thing about Nikko-Onna is that I can recur it and it can be equipped with Sunforger . Tempest of Light is obviously for the Enduring Ideal matchup (as well as Nikko-Onna), works well because it is tutorable with Sunforger. The blazes were for any control matchups, to replace a some of the Wrath of Gods (unless they were runnning Meloku). Those ended up being champs, as they could push through an extra 10 damage or so in games that went long. Plus they were useful against Maga Combo if they were unwise enough to let me untap with Heartbeat in play.
Some people have suggested running Birds of Paradise. I think its an interesting option, as you can potentialy drop a turn 2 Sunforger and equip it on your flier on turn three, but then again its not only another vulnerable creature, but your own Wrath of God will take it down, and thats not good for the card advantage your looking for in Wrath.
Team Dorito Challenge
WA State Standard Champion 2007
Constructed Rating: 1935
the point of the deck is to destroy/remove from the game any creatures your opponant plays with cards like Lightning helix, devouring light and Shard Phoenix and then quickly Bash there face in with firemane angel and honestly why would you want to waste a couple slots of deck space that could be used for removel just to regerate a couple creatures that you can return to play or your hand anyway by using there activated abilities!
it's a good suggestion but it just isn't really for this deck!
H/W List ABOVE
Ok I have been running fire for a while now and I believe the addition of 4 loxodon hierarch s to my deck made it emensely better. Also I added 1 Godo, Bandit Warlord to fetch my forgers for me. The deck seems to run smoothly for me without any real hitches as of yet so here is my current deck list...
1x Godo, Bandit Warlord
4x Loxodon Hierarch
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
3x Devouring Light
2x Faith's Fetters
2x Flames of the Blood Hand
1x Hidetsugu's Second Rite
4x Lightning Helix
2x Seed Spark
3x Sunforger
4x Wrath of God
3x Yamabushi's Flame
4x Forest
4x Karplusian Forest
4x Mountain
3x Plains
4x Temple Garden
3x Vitu-Ghazi, The City Tree
The Deck is amazingly Resiliant. It has amazing Aggro Matchups and good matchups against control as well.
R/W Aggro: This matchup is basically a bye for my deck. If I dram any of my control aspects I win.
U/B agg Con: Maybe this guy is just a bad player but he is running the same deck list that took first at states down to the net-deckked card. I haven't really had much trouble bashing his face in because the city tree is amazing in this matchup. Helix, and yamabushi's flames are all-stars in this matchup as well seeing as how all the creatures other than moroii are less than 3 toughness pretty much.
G/B Rock: Game 1 pretty much comes down to the draw that each player gets. With him playing a scarab and me flaming it out of exhistence. And Swinging with sunforgered tokens or loxy or godo. Game 2 I board in the ivory masks to stop cranial. Then the matchup gets so pretty for me.
Gifts: Hmmm...Yamabushi's Flames is good in this matchup. This is pretty much a 50/50 split.
Enduring Ideal: I board in tempest of light and scour and then say GG and move on to the next round.
All Praises be to Topher patron saint of sig banners thanx for the awesome banner.
Official member of the Orzhov Syndicate
"Hate is just a special kind of love we give to those who suck" - Me
Dredge Pact: I played three games against the deck, game 1 i didn't even know what i was playing against. I thought it was a subpar rock deck. the only threats that i saw were a couple hyppies and a scarab. all of which were quickly dispatched with either lighning helix or devouring light. game 2 saw an early pact which gave me some problems until i found a seed spark. i didnt bother to side in anything since i had no idea what he was playing except that it was green and black. again he had trouble keeping creatures on the table because of multiple wraths on my behalf. eventually i burned him to death and chipped him with a couple of saprolings to kill him. for game 3 i sided in scour, found it with a sunforger and he quickly conceded.
Glare of Subdual: I will start by saying that this was a really really difficult match. We each played 20+ turns before each game was resolved. i would start out with early threats that were easily matched and he would gain board supremacy. at one point he had me down to 6 life with about 7 creatures on the table. the game lasted so long that i drew into sunforger and used it twice in one turn to hit him for 14 points of damage (Flames + H2R)to end the match. game two was basically the same thing but i sided in more enchantment hate to make my life easier but he never found the Glare of Subdual. he didn't start out as fast and i flew over his creatues with an angel to finish him off.
Mirror: His version was pretty crappy so i dont even know if i should take these results seriously. he was forced to keep my creatures at bey with his burn spells and i sent mine at his head since he had an empty board except for a bunch of lands and a fettered sunforger. i played the same strategy game 2 except i took out a couple of wraths since i knew i could burn anything he would throw out at me and i sided in more burn.
Gifts: The previous result is actually incorrect. the matches were 1:2 in favor of gifts. I was only able to beat him one match in which by the time he drew into gifts i had him far enough along that he could not recover even though he was able to get a kokusho into play with a footsteps of the goryo in hand. the other two games he beat me as in any other typical gifts match. i didnt have much by way of a sideboard against gifts and it showed.
Rock: See dredge-pact above. Rock matches went very similar except for i had the problem with Putrefy that i didn't seem to run into with Pact. The matches that i won were by way of spot removal/faith's fetters.
I will add the other matches at a later time.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary