I really like the logic behind your inclusion of Dromoka. Not sure if it's a maindeck or sb card but I'm sold on it being in the 75.
I'm less convinced that it's best to drop Nissa VoZ from the maindeck and from the 75. There was a recent thread about this topic in the Reddit Spikes forum. Consensus seemed to be that if you drop VoZ you're replacing her in the 3-drop slot w some combination of Nissa, Vastwood and/or Tireless Tracker and that neither is better than VoZ for what the deck wants.
Ultimately, what I don't like about your go bigger pre-board plan is that it makes your maindeck weaker against the two next-best decks in the metagame (Mono-W and Bant Humans) so as to improve your mid-range match ups. But you already have good game against other mid-range decks. Maindecking Den Pros, Nissa Vastwoods, and Evo Leaps just seems like a recipe for getting run over by Mono-W and Bant in g1, especially when you don't have Nissa VoZ to soak up damage and put out chump blockers.
I can sort of see being concerned about the mirror and thus trying to pre-board on a go bigger plan in anticipation of it. But that seems like too small an edge to gain compared to the bigger loss of equity you'd then have in g1 of your other T1 match ups. The biggest edge in the mirror match doesn't come from size and from tech but simply from being on the play.
I agree, after a few days of testing without her, I put the Voices back in the deck and immediately the deck got better lol. I'm not sure exactly how I ended up going wrong and not noticing how much worse the tokens angle gets without her... needless to say, she came back in and that angle got better! wow!
I want a third Evolutionary Leap in the sideboard because I want to draw one in every postboard game where I keep Leap in, but I'm pretty sure that's not correct.
Round 1: Green Ramp (2-0, 1-0)
Payoff was The Great Aurora, played smaller guys like Sylvan Advocate and Tireless Tracker in lieu of more conventional ramp threats like Ulamog (at least from what I saw of the guy playing the deck throughout the day). I am sure there's some kind of Great Aurora Ramp deck that could be good in Standard, but this one was a few steps removed from being that deck. Bad luck from the pilot (stuck on 3 lands, then had a mulligan) didn't help his cause and neither did curving out both planeswalkers in both games.
Round 2: UR Fliers/Burn/Tempo (0-2, 1-1)
I was actually a little more ready for this deck than most GW lists would be, with maindeck Dragonlord Dromoka and sideboard Aerial Volley. I found the Dromoka in game 1 off of an Evolutionary Leap activation, but unfortunately I had an empty board after doing this (I was at eight life and had to chump block), and my opponent had exactly Goblin Dark-Dwellers flashing back Exquisite Firecraft, right on time to set up lethal damage before Dromoka could stabilize things. Game 2 I kept an extremely loose hand that "got there" -- had my Aerial Volley, a couple Advocates and removal spells, an Oath of Nissa and one land, Oath hit a land and I drew into them for several turns to curve out -- but my Aerial Volley ended up looking real stupid facing down Sin Prodder and double Thunderbreak Regent. I think I might have sideboarded incorrectly here, and I definitely didn't have the Regent on my radar.
Round 3: Bant Company (1-1-1, 1-1-1)
Frustrating draw, I play pretty quickly and never pick up unintentional draws so this one hurt. It wasn't either player's fault, we just had very long and involved games that couldn't reasonably be resolved in time. To make matters worse, I feel like I threw away a Game 2 in which I was way ahead -- I got blown out by a Tragic Arrogance that I didn't expect to see, and I went for exact lethal with a Thopter token by casting and -4 Gideon and got maximum punished by my opponent getting runner Bounding Krasis into Reflector Mage to leave himself at 2 life with me having no threats. He won two turns later. He had a better spot by the end of game 3, I think, but it was plausibly anybody's game. Fortunately, I would get another shot at redeeming myself for the draw down the line....
Round 4: Black Eldrazi Midrange (2-0, 2-1-1)
Good friend of mine built his own deck, combining the good black cards (namely Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and the black removal and discard) with Reality Smasher and sideboard Thought-Knot Seer. He played fine and had some tools afterboard to deal with my tokens (namely Virulent Plague), but my deck's power level was just higher and I didn't stumble so I ended up getting there.
Round 5: Grixis Control (2-1, 3-1-1) Evolutionary Leap. Next question. Highlight of this match was holding up Dromoka's Command with an opposing Jace, Vryn's Prodigy on board to my Den Protector and Nissa, Vastwood Seer, allowing the Jace to flip and then countering a Radiant Flames with Command. Leap took over in short order from there. I really have no idea why 2x Leap isn't standard-fare in every GW deck going forward.
Round 6: UR Dragons (2-0, 4-1-1)
This deck looked like it would be a scary matchup. I got lucky to draw just enough removal to keep everything off the board. It came at quite the price -- casting Declaration in Stone on a Thunderbreak Regent with a second one in play is so nerve-wracking. I went down to 4 from doing that and faded Exquisite Firecraft for a million turns while my grimy Den Protector beats got there (with some late help from a massive Sylvan Advocate). I boarded into the controlling package and Leap took over while my opponent had to mulligan. Better lucky than good.
Quarterfinals: UR Eldrazi Control (2-0, 5-1-1)
Friend of mine was testing this all week and was dreading matching up with GW Tokens the most. Game 1 I mulliganed and saw 4 lands, 2 Evo Leap and kept it for god knows what reason. Scried Dromoka to the top and left her there, eventually somehow drew a Nissa, Voice of Zendikar to get the Leap train running, had the Declaration in Stone for an early-ish Ulamog and eventually Leap just took over. Game 2 my hand was more normal and he got stuck on 2 lands until turn 4 (and had to cast main-1 Anticipate to find the land at that...) so he fell too far behind to recover.
Semifinals: Wr Boss Humans (2-1, 6-1-1)
Game 1 I kept a slow hand and got run over by the clown fiesta in comical fashion. Boarded into the control package, but kept Nissa, Voice of Zendikar and cut Gideon, Ally of Zendikar instead of the usual reverse when this deck goes into control mode. Game 2 he kept a one-lander (which was very amusingly telegraphed by his turn-1 Battlefield Forge...) and it was way too slow on the draw. Game 3 his keep looked fine, but I looped Dromoka's Command approximately 4.8 million times with Den Protector, whittled down the board with grimy midrange 2-3 drops and eventually went over the top with Avacyn.
Finals: Bant Company (2-0, 7-1-1)
Rematch! I unfortunately don't remember the details on this one at all. Only the ending -- where I was at 3 life but threatening lethal attackers next turn, my opponent had four Clues in play and cracked them all to find any answer to win the game and drew four straight lands. Whoops.
I'm gonna use this post to ramble about how I approach the most common matchups in the metagame with GW. I wrote something about the mirror first and kinda wore myself out, so I'll share just that for now and edit other matchups in later. Hoping to have all the major matchups covered by the end of tomorrow night.
GW Tokens has a lot of flexibility in the way in which it can win a given game. This is intended as a reference for what I've found to be the best way to attack the most popular decks in the metagame with the build I play. GW Tokens can certainly win with other angles beyond the one I list here (and can certainly lose with the angle I list), this is just how I've had the most success across the board.
GW Tokens Mirror
I didn't play this at the PPTQ and actually have surprisingly little experience with it, given GW's prevalence in the metagame. This should be taken with some amount of hesitation due to my inexperience in the mirror, and due to the fact that GW is so flexible -- your opponent can attack the mirror in a lot of different ways too.
Game 1
Evolutionary Leap is the most important card in Game 1 of the mirror match, bar none. Game 1 revolves around Archangel Avacyn: she is the best way to pressure opposing planeswalkers and is the largest thing on the battlefield when she transforms, and her transformation usually resets the board and just leaves her behind. Evolutionary Leap does a few things to influence this:
It helps to find your Avacyn. She's already pretty easy to find most of the time, but the plethora of Plants that Nissa, Voice of Zendikar generates will get you to her pretty reliably and at minimal cost.
It serves as a sacrifice outlet to transform your Avacyn. If you're running Leap and they aren't, you should be able to win the fight over Avacyn because you can more reliably transform your Avacyn than your opponents.
It serves as a way to force your Hangarback Walker to die. If you haven't found your own Avacyn yet, then the Thopter tokens are your best bet for holding off an opposing Avacyn while your planeswalkers help you dig for Avacyn via Leap. And if the skies are clear of angels, then those Thopters become the next best way to pressure opposing planeswalkers while you try to find a more efficient way to do it.
In my specific build, Leap will eventually dig you into the singleton Dragonlord Dromoka. I wrote earlier that Dromoka is the ultimate trump in GW, since she wins 1-on-1 against Avacyn, the Purifier and Linvala, the Preserver (after board). You should already be able to win the Avacyn battle, but it helps that sometimes you can just opt out of fighting over angels and just ride your dragon to victory.
As far as actually using Leap, I use it fairly aggressively in the GW mirror.
Plants basically only exist as Leap fodder. This is a major departure from the "token beatdown" plan that a lot of people get suckered into going for in the mirror. The simple fact is that a 0/1 is going to take way too much work to make into a relevant threat. Use them as chump blockers to protect your planeswalkers until you can either resolve Avacyn and stabilize the board or find Leap and start pitching those Plants to find Avacyn or Dromoka.
You should basically never be sacrificing Avacyn, Dromoka, or Sylvan Advocate to Leap -- it's good to leave up extra green sources even if they're in play, so that you can Leap in response to removal spells (especially Declaration in Stone, since you want to be able to regrow them later with Den Protector), but that's all they should ever be sacrificed for.
Den Protector, Hangarback Walker, and Knight Ally tokens are more situational. Knight Allies are relatively disposable, but having 1-2 of them in play in tandem with a Sylvan Advocate or Avacyn is usually good enough to lock down the ground for your planeswalkers, as even a successful alpha strike on a planeswalker will give you the chance to make good blocks that trade Knight Allies for Advocates and the like. Den Protector is more or less disposable after she's flipped (and especially if you had to run her out face-up), but she can be your best weapon sometimes for beating up other planeswalkers given her evasion clause. You'll know when that's the case and when you can pitch her to Leap easily enough. Hangarback Walker, you'd think it would be obvious sac bait, and it usually is, but you want to let your first one level up a bit first, and if your plan for the game involves transforming an Avacyn, you want the Hangarback Walker to be on the field when she does so that you don't accidentally clean up the Thopters for your opponent.
The rest of the matchup is pretty straightforward: protect your planeswalkers and worry about staying afloat on the ground while attempting to rule the skies. I do have one important note: Your removal matters. Use it sparingly and wisely. Far too many players are content to spend turn 3 on a Dromoka's Command pitfighting two Sylvan Advocates. It looks real good, since Sylvan Advocate is an important piece of planeswalker defense, and because the +1/+1 counter ensures that your Advocate will beat their future ones too -- but all it does is leave you a 3/4 that gets chump-blocked by Plants endlessly and down a removal spell for the Avacyn that will kill you later. If you don't have to kill something to stay alive or protect your planeswalkers, don't do it, no matter how much of a blowout it looks like it'll be -- you can basically always engineer a bigger blowout later (especially as preserving your Command in tempting early situations might put your opponent on you not having the Command at all).
Games 2-3
Sideboard:
-4 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar; -4 Dromoka's Command
+1 Den Protector; +1 Linvala, the Preserver; +2 Nissa, Vastwood Seer; +1 Stasis Snare; +1 Quarantine Field; +2 Declaration in Stone
After board, the biggest change in the dynamic of the mirror is that your opponents will likely have Linvala, the Preserver in their deck. Linvala is "the trump card" of sorts in the GW mirror. Her stats line up perfectly against Avacyn, as she wins head-to-head against Archangel Avacyn and trades with Avacyn, the Purifier, and the 3/3 Angel is very relevant in a matchup where control of the skies determines the outcome.
Fortunately for us, we have a dragon that goes bigger than Linvala, but this still informs our sideboarding decisions significantly. Nissa, Voice of Zendikar becomes a major liability when Linvala becomes the important card in the matchup, because she tends to turn on opposing 3/3 Angels (and turn off our 3/3 Angels), but in a way that is basically totally irrelevant to the game. As noted before, the Plants she makes aren't good for anything except for chump blocking and being Leap fodder. You really don't want random useless bodies lying around if your opponent is on the Linvala plan. Voice of Zendikar is also generally low-impact after board, because it's much harder to just win with token beatdowns after the opponent gets a chance to board in more Declaration in Stone, which makes both her + and - abilities less relevant.
So Voice leaves after board, but Dromoka's Command? The reason for this is pretty simple -- our removal is very scarce and we have to conserve it for the cards that matter, and the cards that matter tend to be very big, very angry angels. Removal that requires you to pitfight very big, very angry angels is less than reliable at doing its job. And since we have enough removal spells in the sideboard to cover for it, we get to trade in our unreliable Commands for more reliable exile pieces. That they exile also makes them better choices for postboard games, because Den Protector usually shows up in Game 2 if not in Game 1, and preventing your opponent from regrowing their most valuable threats is a big deal going long.
Nissa, Vastwood Seer comes in as a way to bridge us in turn 3. Voice of Zendikar was the way that this deck bridged the gap, putting another body in play and a planeswalker that needs to be answered -- but since we cut her after board and we bring in higher-mana plays (you really want Den Protector to be a 5-drop, and Linvala is of course a 6-drop), what we really want is just to put a generic 2/2 into play and make sure our fourth land drop for Gideon is on time, as Gideon can usually bridge us to Avacyn and Linvala and Dromoka. On a related note, with Leap to find your other Nissa and Den Protectors to regrow any dead ones, you should be more liberal with the 2/2 body that Vastwood Seer brings. It's tempting to withhold her so she transforms right on turn 7, but you lose many more games from just not making it to turn 7 or 7 lands or whatever than you do from prematurely firing off your Nissa as a chump blocker and then not being able to get her back later.
These games tend to play out similarly to Game 1, but they're tougher because your opponent is more likely to be on the Leap plan after board, and because people are starting to wise up to the fact that going bigger is better for the mirror postboard. I think the construction of this deck still gives a fundamental edge over most GW lists -- Dromoka is the ultimate trump and the sideboard plan from Gerry Thompson is still very good, even when people start to expect it.
I piloted GW Tokens for a top-8 in a WMCQ, lost in quarterfinals to BW control - never drew an answer to opposing Linvalla, and he even countered my Ormendahl by making 8 tokens from Secure the Wastes and then playing Gideon for emblem immediately...
What i can't understand is why everybody run 4-of Oath of Nissa. Yes, it allows to keep riskier hands and helps to curve out, but playing it when you're behind, and looking at Tragic Arrogance you could have drawn instead is just embarrassing. I usually side in more answers (removal, wraths, leaps), and don't want them at the bottom of my library because of Oath, so i ended up siding out most of them every time. 2 color manabase feels extremely solid, and i never regretted i didn't have Oath after sideboard. That basically questions if it has to be in the main... Am I missing anything?
Not sure from your original post whether you've clicked onto this point specifically but Oath also allows you to cast planeswalkers for any colour of magic, so Nissa costs 3, Gideon costs 4 and if you include her in your 75, Chandra costs 6 generic mana. You don't need GG, WW or RR respectively. Which is pretty handy.
This isn't really the kind of deck for which you want set plans. Your deck attacks on a few major, different angles, and you're best off sideboarding according to how you think your opponent views the matchup more than anything else. If they want to grind, bring in Evolutionary Leap and Nissa, Vastwood Seer. If they think you just fold to Virulent Plague, board out cards like Hangarback Walker and sidestep Plague. If they want to play draw-go and need time to set up, Lambholt Pacifist is really good. etc.
I cut Secure the Wastes completely because it just wasn't very good in the sideboard and wasn't worth the maindeck space. For every game it steals where no other card could get the job done, there's about 3-4 more where they have the Virulent Plague or Kozilek's Return and another 8-9 you just never end up playing it because you have stronger things to do at every point in the game.
Once that happened, I noticed that Westvale Abbey just... never did anything. Making a token almost never happens for me these days and flipping it into Ormendahl? As if... they always have the Anguished Unmaking, the Stasis Snare, the Reflector Mage, whatever. Ormendahl isn't even that impossible against you, given the presence of Evolutionary Leap and Hangarback Walker. Pitching a successfully-wide board to get one big dude is so often not necessary and very risky that you don't even do it unless you're guaranteed to have it -- and it's not like your opponents are all just dummies that tap out for you once you have five disposable guys, five lands, and Abbey in play.
Then you notice all the double-white cards, and that Abbey is often the worst land in the deck for the first 8 or so turns in the game, and that most of your games are decided more by successful development in those turns than by Ormendahl late, and you start to wonder why you even bother with the card anyway. In the end, I decided that my deck is strong enough if it can just do its thing consistently, so I cut Abbey.
The rest of the maindeck is straightforward, I cut the 26th land for the 4th Oath of Nissa because the Oath is just better to have than the land. The Oath is very frequently just a land anyway if that's what you need it to be, and really, the main reason we play 26 lands is to have more keepable opening 7s (increases the odds, however marginally, of having perfect 3-landers instead of dicey 2-landers)... but Oath of Nissa is just straight up the best card in the deck to have in your opening hand since it's almost always just going to be whatever your hand needed to be perfect. Oath is also sometimes a threat late when a land obviously isn't.
The sideboard is where things are still fluid and I'm just not sure I'll ever settle on one "correct" 75. Rationale for each:
1 Den Protector: Does a little bit of everything pretty well. It trades decently with the aggressive decks in the format, clocks planeswalkers in the mirror, just gets us on board when we need early pressure, and obviously shines in longer games. Great hit off of Leap to get back planeswalkers or removal spells from the graveyard. Tends to come in a lot, but the early-body-on-board is unnecessary since the deck already has a lot of early plays, and it's easy to flood on the kicker mode, so you only want 2 main and the 3rd in the sideboard.
3 Lambholt Pacifist // Lambholt Butcher: There are a few matchups, like the Prison deck and the Ux Fliers deck, where your best bet of beating them is just assembling 20 damage to them at the first possible opportunity. Pacifist, ironically, is one of your best tools in the toolbox for this. You don't want to maindeck it because it's still not a high-powered card, but it gets the job done very well in matchups where being too skewed toward the "good card midrange" axis of the deck is a bad thing. Could possibly be a full 4 copies, but the Pacifist is at her best when you play her on 2 and she either naturally flips on turn 3 or gets pumped into attack range on turn 3, so you ideally just want to find one early with an enabler, rather than drawing 2 or even 3 Pacifists with no pump effect.
1 Linvala, the Preserver: Best card in the format for catching you up. Most lists play 2 in the board for matchups where you try to be a little bigger and more controlling than your opponent, but I never found myself wanting for her effect at one copy -- if anything I sometimes had trouble making the one copy good! -- and maindecking a Dragonlord Dromoka really limits your ability to play more than one Linvala anyway, since they do very similar things. One seems best.
2 Nissa, Vastwood Seer // Nissa, Sage Animist: She's possibly the best card in GW for "bridging" you from your first plays to your best cards. Put simply, this deck would be willing to spend mana on turn 3 to guarantee that it has four lands on turn 4 for Gideon, five for Avacyn or Planar Outburst, etc. In matchups where it's critical to get to your more expensive cards on-time to win (Wr Humans for instance, but also Bant Humans, Bant Company, etc.), creature Nissa is a much better card than planeswalker Nissa. Planeswalker Nissa is very powerful and the deck's best "bridge" preboard, since it's a much more proactive card, but she can be a liability to protect in creature matchups and can be more generally low-impact sometimes (there are lots of games where Plants and counters don't mean that much). Creature Nissa gets you to your high-impact cards -- most of the time she's just getting a Forest and then chumping/trading. But if she sticks around until the later game, or if you buy her back with Den Protector, she becomes your most threatening card on flip -- drawing into more good spells and then outright winning the game four turns later. She comes in a lot, just accompanying your more reactive, expensive spells and especially for longer games.
1 Evolutionary Leap: Strictly for decks (generally BWx decks) that can exile your other copies. Two is fine, even for the matchups where it's good, because Den Protector can buy it back if it gets destroyed; but if it's exiled then you can sometimes go quite a while without finding another one. The third copy helps for that. With that said, I'm considering cutting this, because it seems like a wasted slot if I don't bring it in for matchups where it would be good (Grixis, the mirror), but only for ones that answer it easily. Just seems like inconsistent reasoning to me.
1 Quarantine Field: Good catchall answer, basically in the class of Anguished Unmaking and, before it, Utter End and Silence the Believers. It's unbelievably powerful if you ever get to kick it at least once and at least acceptable unkicked, but since you really want to kick it at least once, you can't afford to play multiple copies. Definitely play one, but I don't think I'd play more.
1 Silkwrap: The diversity of removal spells you'll see in this list is mainly because I didn't like how I would board up to four Declaration in Stone when I went to a more controlling look -- it's pretty bad if you're trying to control the game but your best removal spell gives them cards later. So I ended up scaling back on Dec in Stone a bit, but nothing else fit the bill of being two-mana and unconditional. I'm trying out one Silkwrap for Humans decks and Company decks (especially ones with Eldrazi Displacer), since it's just two mana and doesn't draw them a card. Will see how this goes.
1 Stasis Snare: Very possible this should be 2x, especially since it's an instant-speed removal spell in a deck lacking for them, but three mana is a little awkward given how low to the ground some decks force you to be. Snare is very good and comes in almost all the time, just not where you have to be quick.
1 Angelic Purge: This was suggested to me on /r/spikes and I think it's a good adjustment from Declaration in Stone. It obviously has its downsides: three mana is again an awkward number for mere spot removal, and in this case it's not even a true turn-3 play unless you want to set yourself back a land. Sacrificing an Oath of Nissa is the dream, but outside of that you probably need to wait a bit. That said, the upside of being unconditional exile removal that also hits key enchantments (biggest offenders: opposing Evolutionary Leap, Virulent Plague, Gryff's Boon) and even artifacts (Hedron Archive, Pyromancer's Goggles) is very high. You can't really play multiples of it, but one is very good.
1 Declaration in Stone: Look, it's still good, ok? Just... not 4-of good. You don't want to give your opponents cards. You still bring it in for most matchups since you gotta be able to snipe key creatures, and this card's rate and multi-hit potential are phenomenal, but the downside is real, so be careful.
2 Planar Outburst: You need a wrath in the sideboard. This one, I like more than Tragic Arrogance, because you don't have to jump through hoops to keep your planeswalkers, and you don't have to leave them a creature that really needed to die. The blowout potential from Avacyn against Bant is real, so be careful, but otherwise Outburst is more in line with your deck's goals when you do bring in wrath effects. I also recently went down to two copies from three, because I found myself in spots where I didn't actually need a wrath -- just another powerful permanent to break open a board state that was more or less at parity.
How do you guys play against white weenie? Theres tons of it in my meta... Im thinking main decking x4 Pacifists almost and putting hangarbacks sideboard. Hangarbacks literally always get exiled from silk wrap, snare or stone by turn 2 or 3.
Game 1 you're all-in on an Avacyn wrath and using Dromoka's Command to keep their Always Watching under wraps. You probably won't catch everything with an Avacyn flip, but you'll catch quite a few things and typically the 6/5 will hinder further attacks until you can untap and lock down the board with your walkers and other big creatures.
Postboard you're trying to make it to 5 mana for either Avacyn + flip right afterward, or Planar Outburst.
Your planeswalkers don't really mean much. They're there as bridges to your 5-mana stabilizers. Don't go out of your way to keep their loyalty high. If you can trade for their creatures, you always do it. Your trades usually involve Knight Ally tokens for real cards, which is big.
Once you've made whatever trades you can make, you should make blocks to keep your planeswalkers alive. If you can't save them without trading, then it depends on what your next turn looks like as to whether or not you should abandon trading -- if you're going to wrath next turn then you should aggressively protect your planeswalkers, since they're your tickets to victory once you've reset the board; if you have a backup planeswalker then make the trade; and so on.
BUT, once you've made blocks to keep them alive, you should generally prefer to leave their loyalty lower and keep an extra blocker, if possible. Gideon and Nissa do the same thing at any amount of loyalty in this matchup so there's no significant incentive to keep their loyalty higher.
Postboard you should be more aggressive with defending your life total instead of looking to use your life as a buffer to make trades. You have a real wrath effect in Planar Outburst to catch up, so you don't have to try to gain incremental advantages through trades, and they have Reckless Bushwhacker for a hasty final burst of damage after a wrath, so your incentives should shift to preserving your life total more aggressively and riding on your more reliable wrath effects to catch up. That gives you the latitude to use your life as a buffer for trading when you would most like to: during their last-ditch damage burst that tries to either win the game on the spot or put them so close that they can chump attack into you for the win on the next turn.
Cards that are good to have out of the board:
- Any 2-mana removal you might be able to side into (extra Declaration in Stone or Silkwraps). Dec in Stone gets awkward because you can actually outgrind yourself if you lean too hard on it, but that's usually less likely than just dying outright to a big Thalia's Lieutenant or whatever so it's worth.
- Lambholt Pacifist. Really shines here. Den Protector and even Nissa, Vastwood Seer are serviceable -- Protector comes down on turn 2 to give you an extra blocker to set up your planeswalkers to bridge to your wraths, Nissa gets your 4th/5th land for the wrath and then gives you one good block. Both are also great topdecks once you've stabilized.
- Obviously you need your wrath, but avoid other splashy effects. Linvala, Dragonlord Dromoka, and the like are strong cards and obviously will slam the door shut on a game, but you should be significantly favored to win a game that gets into topdecking if you get there at a reasonable life total; better to play cards that maximize your chances of getting to that point (which Linvala and Dromoka don't do).
Is anybody else becoming very unimpressed with Declaration in Stone?
I play two in the maindeck because it's a cheap all-purpose answer, which is what you want in your game 1s. But the extra card is a real drawback, and it's ironically at its worst in the matchups where you would most likely bring it in. You want extra all-purpose answers when you're trying to slant toward a more controlling look and go bigger than your opponent, such as when you play against Bant Humans or the GBx Tireless Tracker - Sylvan Advocate - Duskwatch Recruiter decks or the mirror. But giving them extra cards when we want to go long is very counterproductive and puts us in a hole when we try to answer these proactive card advantage threats.
I went from a third Evo Leap (which was excessive and rarely ever came in), one Stasis Snare and two Dec in Stone to two Stasis Snare and two Silkwrap, and so far I think it's an improvement. Silkwrap is awkward sometimes when you want more all-purpose answers, but it's very efficient for what it does and I've liked it every time I've seen it.
Steve Rubin's list from GP Pitt ran 1 in the main and 2 in the side. That feels really good in testing.
I was on BW control for a long time, which wants every game to be grindy. In saying that, it hurts a lot in grindy matchups. I went from 4 to 2 to 0. And the deck didn't miss it.
I like the 1 in Rubin's list as a 1 catches all sort of thing and then you can bring in extras for the matchups you like.
Scasseden: What are your thoughts on the winning list from Pitt running Deathmist Raptor out of the side? Wasn't really sure what to make of it. Historically it was nice to package with den protector vs control, but people are only running 2-3 Den protectors.
Dude, you know I can't stand G/W decks but I ran G/W Tokens for a few weeks and it's power level was...Even when you don't curve out you have so many powerful cards to play in each turn they mitigate playing slightly off curve just fine.
and tokens in general. I don't think this what you in grindy matches but it is unconditional Exile removal for the price of 2 mana and them having to crack a clue and draw a card for 2. It's fine and efficient. The control player in me doesn't mind giving my opponent a clue if it means I can punch a hole in their board state and start chipping in for damage. Generally I position myself to expect them to commit to the board and deal with my threats, I think the fact that G/W tokens threats demand answers makes a card like dec in stone really good. It gets rid of anything and since you are also going wide and gaining incremental advantages here and there you stay at parity in the long run.
Yeah I wouldn't cut Declaration from the maindeck, for sure. In game 1 you generally want to be more proactive when you're not necessarily optimally aligned to handle whatever their gameplan is. That makes an all-purpose tempo-positive answer very good.
I've just been playing 2 in the board, but I brought them in for matches where I wanted to go long and outgrind people... which seems like a significant mistake. I eventually cut both the sideboard ones for more Stasis Snare and Silkwrap and I think it's working a bit better, but haven't tested enough to be sure.
RE: Deathmist Raptor, it seems unnecessary to me. I love our long game with Evolutionary Leap, Den Protector, and Nissa, Vastwood Seer. Raptor is nice for those games but it seems like a misallocation of precious sideboard spots -- I would love to pack more Silkwrap for Wx Humans and Stasis Snare and a second Q-Field for the longer games as it is, but I can't make the space for them, let alone if I had some number of Raptors clogging things up.
It's also not actually all that powerful imo. Some decks just can't beat the Raptor, but those same decks tend to struggle with looping Avacyn flips off of Hangarback Walkers and buying back Avacyn or Gideon 10,000 times with Den Protector or just getting caught with their pants at their ankles when Dragonlord Dromoka shows up. We already go over the top of a lot of decks in the format in longer games, unlike the various smallball Collected Company decks that have historically banked on Raptor to put in work there.
I played it tonight for fnm and went 1-1-1. I boarded in my bigger pieces, and it carried me in game 2 on the play. Game 3 on the draw, we
Went to turns.
Wonder if I should have gone thr aggro route with Pacifists and Surrak
You know, I tested this match up a lot before decided to run G/W Tokens at the last PPTQ I attended (went 3 and 3, didn't play badly but I did lose 1 match to mana screw and another to a very innovative Goggles deck with MD Thunderbreak's and Roars), anyhow, I learned a few things:
1) What is the set up of the Ramp deck? Is the 4 Ulamog Version or 4 Atarka? How many K's Returns are they running, and what are their early plays?
2) You have to approach this match with your mind set being "I'm the beat down".
Next, what version of Tokens are you running? Are you playing Pacifists?
Play and Phases vs Ramp.
I'm a ramp player, love ramp, and while I have tons of experience with the deck, I don't ever lose to it. Mainly because I know every single configuration that deck can be (I tested and jammed god knows how many cards early on to figure the perfect 60, I never got there).
1) You must have T2 Advocate/ Pacifist or Hangarback
2) -2 Nissa always and get your Dudes to 4+ toughness range.
3) T4 Gideon on the play + board presence is usually enough (The 4 Atarka Version can be a problem though, it's got a great G1 against You)
4) Avacyn while good on the play is terrible on the draw, I'm going Atarka and World Breaker or Chandra, you're either tapped out or haven't made your 5th land drop. Cut down to 2 Avacyn's if on the draw.
5) Quarantine Field isn't terrible, it's not great but it can clean up things and allow you stall.
6) Dec in Stone is a must.
After SB you have to judge what removal is needed, D's COmmand isn't great against the 2nd half K's Return but it is great at applying Pressure. Force a ramp player to sac Oath of Nissa and put a +1 +1 counter on your 2 drop to apply more pressure. Look at their mana, do they have double R? Do they have shrines out with 7 lands in play? Remember that A ramp player can cast K's Return with 2 lands is they have Shrine + red source up. It's not uncommon to see
Play K's Return, then Chandra - or World Breaker
You really want to cut things that aren't great, usually went something like this:
+ 2 Pacifist, + 2 Dec on Stone, + 1 Quarantine Field,
-2 Avacyn (On the play I went as far as cutting them all out), -1 to -2 D's Command, -1 Hangarback, , You can cut Leap if you feel like hangarback is to slow. Den Protector is a 2 drop that gets in there.
On Jaddi's= remove on sight. If I stick 1-2 Jaddi's and get anywhere close to 25+ life you rarely win.
Be aggressive, and try to not over commit to the board, Leave some cards back to rebuild. Leap is good, especially is it's the Atarka version. Hope this helps.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
You know, I tested this match up a lot before decided to run G/W Tokens at the last PPTQ I attended (went 3 and 3, didn't play badly but I did lose 1 match to mana screw and another to a very innovative Goggles deck with MD Thunderbreak's and Roars), anyhow, I learned a few things:
1) What is the set up of the Ramp deck? Is the 4 Ulamog Version or 4 Atarka? How many K's Returns are they running, and what are their early plays?
2) You have to approach this match with your mind set being "I'm the beat down".
Next, what version of Tokens are you running? Are you playing Pacifists?
Play and Phases vs Ramp.
I'm a ramp player, love ramp, and while I have tons of experience with the deck, I don't ever lose to it. Mainly because I know every single configuration that deck can be (I tested and jammed god knows how many cards early on to figure the perfect 60, I never got there).
1) You must have T2 Advocate/ Pacifist or Hangarback
2) -2 Nissa always and get your Dudes to 4+ toughness range.
3) T4 Gideon on the play + board presence is usually enough (The 4 Atarka Version can be a problem though, it's got a great G1 against You)
4) Avacyn while good on the play is terrible on the draw, I'm going Atarka and World Breaker or Chandra, you're either tapped out or haven't made your 5th land drop. Cut down to 2 Avacyn's if on the draw.
5) Quarantine Field isn't terrible, it's not great but it can clean up things and allow you stall.
6) Dec in Stone is a must.
After SB you have to judge what removal is needed, D's COmmand isn't great against the 2nd half K's Return but it is great at applying Pressure. Force a ramp player to sac Oath of Nissa and put a +1 +1 counter on your 2 drop to apply more pressure. Look at their mana, do they have double R? Do they have shrines out with 7 lands in play? Remember that A ramp player can cast K's Return with 2 lands is they have Shrine + red source up. It's not uncommon to see
Play K's Return, then Chandra - or World Breaker
You really want to cut things that aren't great, usually went something like this:
+ 2 Pacifist, + 2 Dec on Stone, + 1 Quarantine Field,
-2 Avacyn (On the play I went as far as cutting them all out), -1 to -2 D's Command, -1 Hangarback, , You can cut Leap if you feel like hangarback is to slow. Den Protector is a 2 drop that gets in there.
On Jaddi's= remove on sight. If I stick 1-2 Jaddi's and get anywhere close to 25+ life you rarely win.
Be aggressive, and try to not over commit to the board, Leave some cards back to rebuild. Leap is good, especially is it's the Atarka version. Hope this helps.
I didn't blow up the Jaddi's in any game, that was probably the biggest factor now that you mention it.
I don't really like aggressively removing Jaddi Offshoot, I tend to find that the ramp decks will commonly land one big creature before we can win and you really have to have a removal for that creature right then.
If you have something like Dromoka's Command, then going after Offshoot with it is smart, but don't use something like Declaration in Stone. Save that for the big guys.
I'm switching over to this deck for a couple reasons:
1. It's either the best or second best deck in the format
2. It should only get better with the new set.
3. Unlike CoCo-based decks, it remains a viable deck after the fall rotation (almost all the cards are BFZ or later).
I'm choosing a build closest to the one that won GP Pittsburg. However, what do you all think are the cards from Eldritch Moon that I should consider obtaining for the deck? I'm thinking Collective Effort seems obvious. Sanctifier of Souls seems okay but at 4 CMC I'm not sure. Thalia, Heretic Cathar doesn't synergize at all with the deck, but I can't help but wonder if this is a card that should simply be in any deck that plays white. Thraben Standard Bearer? I dunno, but it does give us a 1-drop that can make tokens.
This is what I'm going to take to game day hopefully, any thoughts? I kind of want to fit a Declaration in Stone into the mainboard and possibly fit Collective Effort somewhere in the 75. I am going to do some testing with it tomorrow.
I'm switching over to this deck for a couple reasons:
1. It's either the best or second best deck in the format
2. It should only get better with the new set.
3. Unlike CoCo-based decks, it remains a viable deck after the fall rotation (almost all the cards are BFZ or later).
I'm choosing a build closest to the one that won GP Pittsburg. However, what do you all think are the cards from Eldritch Moon that I should consider obtaining for the deck? I'm thinking Collective Effort seems obvious. Sanctifier of Souls seems okay but at 4 CMC I'm not sure. Thalia, Heretic Cathar doesn't synergize at all with the deck, but I can't help but wonder if this is a card that should simply be in any deck that plays white. Thraben Standard Bearer? I dunno, but it does give us a 1-drop that can make tokens.
I would consider getting some copies of Collective Effort if you're intending to play this deck after Kaladesh is released, but Dromoka's Command seems like it's just better for the moment and the deck is actually really tight on space for utility cards like that one. Sanctifier of Souls looks like the same effect as Sigarda, Heron's Grace, but worse, even accounting for the mana difference. Spirits are better than Soldiers though.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar is good. I think that card will probably end up in the deck to help the planeswalkers set up, since she constrains our opponents' mana development. Definitely recommend getting her.
Thraben Standard Bearer looks terrible, this deck's card quality is higher than that. Making our cards into 1/1 Spirit tokens for free wouldn't be something we care to play. Thraben Inspector fits the 1-drop slot better and it was cut for, you guessed it, card quality reasons.
Gisela looks like a massive trap. The deck is actually very short on space for >3cmc cards, and really can't afford to play ones that line up awfully against Reflector Mage. Mage is set to see a massive upswing in use, because EMN saw a bunch of cards printed that support some kind of Bant/UW Midrange deck that really wants his effect (not to mention existing Bant Company shells), and also brought some potential to archetypes that play cards that are weak to Reflector Mage (GB Delirium with Mindwrack Demon, W + anything with Gisela/Bruna).
If you want to try a more expensive, high-power new card, I would recommend Tamiyo, Field Researcher. The splash is actually very easy for two reasons:
1. We already play Oath of Nissa, which counts as four sources of 'blue' for Tamiyo. Tamiyo only needs 10 to be cast reliably.
2. We can easily cut five basics for four Evolving Wilds and an Island, and then add in a Prairie Stream over a Plains for good measure. It'll make our mana worse for sure, but the impact on the mana base won't be that high, and the payoff with Tamiyo probably makes up for it.
Im def. looking to try Tamiyo and Thalia, but unsure what to drop...I'm thinking maybe Tragic Arrogance goes back to the board while people try new decks out? Also, maybe cut 2 Lambholt Pacifist for the thalia's - not sure I wanna run more than 2.
Im not an expert deck builder, and I love Andrew Boswell to death, but with Coco around I think Thalia needs to be somewhere in the main deck until proven otherwise, the fact that Ali Antrazi came in second literally playing every land tapped should just not happen in a world with Thalia around, plus she slows collected company down just enough to get a Gideon down under a spell queller, and then they are playing from behind. I also think you want to have access to ishkanah somehow, this deck is secretly one of the best at enabling delirium without really trying.
The problem is the deck is crammed and theres no way to really tweak it, lets say I want to add these 4 cards
2 x Thalia
2 x Ishkanah
What are you taking out, the Hangerbacks might be the worst card in the deck now with coco but being able to sac them to Avacyn without costing mana is a huge deal, and they are all stars against the black control decks, The dromoka's command's feel almost untouchable, and the Oath of Nissa is pretty much needed to maintain the manabase (a problem in seemingly every g/w deck for some reason). Gideon is a must 4 of and one of the best cards in the deck, Avacyn is one of the best cards in standard, and Nissa is important to the curve for the deck. You cut the Advocates and your best weapon against white weenie decks is shut down.
I don't know heres what I would try to fit INTO the deck if I could somehow, if anyone has suggestions on the cuts let me know
3 thalia's, 1 Decimator of Province in the sideboard somewhere, and Stasis Snare x 4 somewhere in the 75; Emrakul is a real threat for this deck, and so is Brisela.
Is it time for g/w to run its own gisela/brisela package ?
I dont think the deck is done, I think it needs to adapt
I cut 2 Secure the Wastes and the main deck sweeper for three Grafwidow for a Monday night standard tournament tonight. Went 3-1 and loved the spiders. I only once didn't have delirium and that's because the board was heavily in my favor. I also played one swamp to fetch with evolving wilds and it won me a game from Grafwidow activations.
I lost to BG delirium in 3 games. Whiffed with 2 oaths in game three mid game, sad days.
I beat bw control, bw angel control and the new burn deck all 2-0.
Obviously dodged the bant decks and still don't know how we line up there with Grafwidow. I know it wants to be bounced so I'm looking forward to that testing.
I'm less convinced that it's best to drop Nissa VoZ from the maindeck and from the 75. There was a recent thread about this topic in the Reddit Spikes forum. Consensus seemed to be that if you drop VoZ you're replacing her in the 3-drop slot w some combination of Nissa, Vastwood and/or Tireless Tracker and that neither is better than VoZ for what the deck wants.
Ultimately, what I don't like about your go bigger pre-board plan is that it makes your maindeck weaker against the two next-best decks in the metagame (Mono-W and Bant Humans) so as to improve your mid-range match ups. But you already have good game against other mid-range decks. Maindecking Den Pros, Nissa Vastwoods, and Evo Leaps just seems like a recipe for getting run over by Mono-W and Bant in g1, especially when you don't have Nissa VoZ to soak up damage and put out chump blockers.
I can sort of see being concerned about the mirror and thus trying to pre-board on a go bigger plan in anticipation of it. But that seems like too small an edge to gain compared to the bigger loss of equity you'd then have in g1 of your other T1 match ups. The biggest edge in the mirror match doesn't come from size and from tech but simply from being on the play.
Current list:
4 Archangel Avacyn
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Sylvan Advocate
2 Den Protector
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
Enchantments (5)
3 Oath of Nissa
2 Evolutionary Leap
Planeswalkers (8)
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4 Dromoka's Command
2 Declaration in Stone
Lands (26)
4 Canopy Vista
4 Fortified Village
2 Westvale Abbey
8 Forest
8 Plains
1 Den Protector
1 Linvala, the Preserver
2 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Stasis Snare
1 Quarantine Field
2 Aerial Volley
2 Secure the Wastes
2 Declaration in Stone
3 Planar Outburst
I want a third Evolutionary Leap in the sideboard because I want to draw one in every postboard game where I keep Leap in, but I'm pretty sure that's not correct.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
4 Archangel Avacyn
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Sylvan Advocate
2 Den Protector
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
Enchantments (5)
3 Oath of Nissa
2 Evolutionary Leap
Planeswalkers (8)
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4 Dromoka's Command
2 Declaration in Stone
Lands (26)
4 Canopy Vista
4 Fortified Village
2 Westvale Abbey
9 Forest
7 Plains
1 Den Protector
1 Linvala, the Preserver
2 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Evolutionary Leap
1 Stasis Snare
1 Quarantine Field
1 Aerial Volley
2 Secure the Wastes
2 Declaration in Stone
3 Planar Outburst
Short tourney report:
Round 1: Green Ramp (2-0, 1-0)
Payoff was The Great Aurora, played smaller guys like Sylvan Advocate and Tireless Tracker in lieu of more conventional ramp threats like Ulamog (at least from what I saw of the guy playing the deck throughout the day). I am sure there's some kind of Great Aurora Ramp deck that could be good in Standard, but this one was a few steps removed from being that deck. Bad luck from the pilot (stuck on 3 lands, then had a mulligan) didn't help his cause and neither did curving out both planeswalkers in both games.
Round 2: UR Fliers/Burn/Tempo (0-2, 1-1)
I was actually a little more ready for this deck than most GW lists would be, with maindeck Dragonlord Dromoka and sideboard Aerial Volley. I found the Dromoka in game 1 off of an Evolutionary Leap activation, but unfortunately I had an empty board after doing this (I was at eight life and had to chump block), and my opponent had exactly Goblin Dark-Dwellers flashing back Exquisite Firecraft, right on time to set up lethal damage before Dromoka could stabilize things. Game 2 I kept an extremely loose hand that "got there" -- had my Aerial Volley, a couple Advocates and removal spells, an Oath of Nissa and one land, Oath hit a land and I drew into them for several turns to curve out -- but my Aerial Volley ended up looking real stupid facing down Sin Prodder and double Thunderbreak Regent. I think I might have sideboarded incorrectly here, and I definitely didn't have the Regent on my radar.
Round 3: Bant Company (1-1-1, 1-1-1)
Frustrating draw, I play pretty quickly and never pick up unintentional draws so this one hurt. It wasn't either player's fault, we just had very long and involved games that couldn't reasonably be resolved in time. To make matters worse, I feel like I threw away a Game 2 in which I was way ahead -- I got blown out by a Tragic Arrogance that I didn't expect to see, and I went for exact lethal with a Thopter token by casting and -4 Gideon and got maximum punished by my opponent getting runner Bounding Krasis into Reflector Mage to leave himself at 2 life with me having no threats. He won two turns later. He had a better spot by the end of game 3, I think, but it was plausibly anybody's game. Fortunately, I would get another shot at redeeming myself for the draw down the line....
Round 4: Black Eldrazi Midrange (2-0, 2-1-1)
Good friend of mine built his own deck, combining the good black cards (namely Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and the black removal and discard) with Reality Smasher and sideboard Thought-Knot Seer. He played fine and had some tools afterboard to deal with my tokens (namely Virulent Plague), but my deck's power level was just higher and I didn't stumble so I ended up getting there.
Round 5: Grixis Control (2-1, 3-1-1)
Evolutionary Leap. Next question. Highlight of this match was holding up Dromoka's Command with an opposing Jace, Vryn's Prodigy on board to my Den Protector and Nissa, Vastwood Seer, allowing the Jace to flip and then countering a Radiant Flames with Command. Leap took over in short order from there. I really have no idea why 2x Leap isn't standard-fare in every GW deck going forward.
Round 6: UR Dragons (2-0, 4-1-1)
This deck looked like it would be a scary matchup. I got lucky to draw just enough removal to keep everything off the board. It came at quite the price -- casting Declaration in Stone on a Thunderbreak Regent with a second one in play is so nerve-wracking. I went down to 4 from doing that and faded Exquisite Firecraft for a million turns while my grimy Den Protector beats got there (with some late help from a massive Sylvan Advocate). I boarded into the controlling package and Leap took over while my opponent had to mulligan. Better lucky than good.
Quarterfinals: UR Eldrazi Control (2-0, 5-1-1)
Friend of mine was testing this all week and was dreading matching up with GW Tokens the most. Game 1 I mulliganed and saw 4 lands, 2 Evo Leap and kept it for god knows what reason. Scried Dromoka to the top and left her there, eventually somehow drew a Nissa, Voice of Zendikar to get the Leap train running, had the Declaration in Stone for an early-ish Ulamog and eventually Leap just took over. Game 2 my hand was more normal and he got stuck on 2 lands until turn 4 (and had to cast main-1 Anticipate to find the land at that...) so he fell too far behind to recover.
Semifinals: Wr Boss Humans (2-1, 6-1-1)
Game 1 I kept a slow hand and got run over by the clown fiesta in comical fashion. Boarded into the control package, but kept Nissa, Voice of Zendikar and cut Gideon, Ally of Zendikar instead of the usual reverse when this deck goes into control mode. Game 2 he kept a one-lander (which was very amusingly telegraphed by his turn-1 Battlefield Forge...) and it was way too slow on the draw. Game 3 his keep looked fine, but I looped Dromoka's Command approximately 4.8 million times with Den Protector, whittled down the board with grimy midrange 2-3 drops and eventually went over the top with Avacyn.
Finals: Bant Company (2-0, 7-1-1)
Rematch! I unfortunately don't remember the details on this one at all. Only the ending -- where I was at 3 life but threatening lethal attackers next turn, my opponent had four Clues in play and cracked them all to find any answer to win the game and drew four straight lands. Whoops.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
GW Tokens has a lot of flexibility in the way in which it can win a given game. This is intended as a reference for what I've found to be the best way to attack the most popular decks in the metagame with the build I play. GW Tokens can certainly win with other angles beyond the one I list here (and can certainly lose with the angle I list), this is just how I've had the most success across the board.
GW Tokens Mirror
I didn't play this at the PPTQ and actually have surprisingly little experience with it, given GW's prevalence in the metagame. This should be taken with some amount of hesitation due to my inexperience in the mirror, and due to the fact that GW is so flexible -- your opponent can attack the mirror in a lot of different ways too.
Game 1
Evolutionary Leap is the most important card in Game 1 of the mirror match, bar none. Game 1 revolves around Archangel Avacyn: she is the best way to pressure opposing planeswalkers and is the largest thing on the battlefield when she transforms, and her transformation usually resets the board and just leaves her behind. Evolutionary Leap does a few things to influence this:
As far as actually using Leap, I use it fairly aggressively in the GW mirror.
Plants basically only exist as Leap fodder. This is a major departure from the "token beatdown" plan that a lot of people get suckered into going for in the mirror. The simple fact is that a 0/1 is going to take way too much work to make into a relevant threat. Use them as chump blockers to protect your planeswalkers until you can either resolve Avacyn and stabilize the board or find Leap and start pitching those Plants to find Avacyn or Dromoka.
You should basically never be sacrificing Avacyn, Dromoka, or Sylvan Advocate to Leap -- it's good to leave up extra green sources even if they're in play, so that you can Leap in response to removal spells (especially Declaration in Stone, since you want to be able to regrow them later with Den Protector), but that's all they should ever be sacrificed for.
Den Protector, Hangarback Walker, and Knight Ally tokens are more situational. Knight Allies are relatively disposable, but having 1-2 of them in play in tandem with a Sylvan Advocate or Avacyn is usually good enough to lock down the ground for your planeswalkers, as even a successful alpha strike on a planeswalker will give you the chance to make good blocks that trade Knight Allies for Advocates and the like. Den Protector is more or less disposable after she's flipped (and especially if you had to run her out face-up), but she can be your best weapon sometimes for beating up other planeswalkers given her evasion clause. You'll know when that's the case and when you can pitch her to Leap easily enough. Hangarback Walker, you'd think it would be obvious sac bait, and it usually is, but you want to let your first one level up a bit first, and if your plan for the game involves transforming an Avacyn, you want the Hangarback Walker to be on the field when she does so that you don't accidentally clean up the Thopters for your opponent.
The rest of the matchup is pretty straightforward: protect your planeswalkers and worry about staying afloat on the ground while attempting to rule the skies. I do have one important note: Your removal matters. Use it sparingly and wisely. Far too many players are content to spend turn 3 on a Dromoka's Command pitfighting two Sylvan Advocates. It looks real good, since Sylvan Advocate is an important piece of planeswalker defense, and because the +1/+1 counter ensures that your Advocate will beat their future ones too -- but all it does is leave you a 3/4 that gets chump-blocked by Plants endlessly and down a removal spell for the Avacyn that will kill you later. If you don't have to kill something to stay alive or protect your planeswalkers, don't do it, no matter how much of a blowout it looks like it'll be -- you can basically always engineer a bigger blowout later (especially as preserving your Command in tempting early situations might put your opponent on you not having the Command at all).
Games 2-3
Sideboard:
-4 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar; -4 Dromoka's Command
+1 Den Protector; +1 Linvala, the Preserver; +2 Nissa, Vastwood Seer; +1 Stasis Snare; +1 Quarantine Field; +2 Declaration in Stone
After board, the biggest change in the dynamic of the mirror is that your opponents will likely have Linvala, the Preserver in their deck. Linvala is "the trump card" of sorts in the GW mirror. Her stats line up perfectly against Avacyn, as she wins head-to-head against Archangel Avacyn and trades with Avacyn, the Purifier, and the 3/3 Angel is very relevant in a matchup where control of the skies determines the outcome.
Fortunately for us, we have a dragon that goes bigger than Linvala, but this still informs our sideboarding decisions significantly. Nissa, Voice of Zendikar becomes a major liability when Linvala becomes the important card in the matchup, because she tends to turn on opposing 3/3 Angels (and turn off our 3/3 Angels), but in a way that is basically totally irrelevant to the game. As noted before, the Plants she makes aren't good for anything except for chump blocking and being Leap fodder. You really don't want random useless bodies lying around if your opponent is on the Linvala plan. Voice of Zendikar is also generally low-impact after board, because it's much harder to just win with token beatdowns after the opponent gets a chance to board in more Declaration in Stone, which makes both her + and - abilities less relevant.
So Voice leaves after board, but Dromoka's Command? The reason for this is pretty simple -- our removal is very scarce and we have to conserve it for the cards that matter, and the cards that matter tend to be very big, very angry angels. Removal that requires you to pitfight very big, very angry angels is less than reliable at doing its job. And since we have enough removal spells in the sideboard to cover for it, we get to trade in our unreliable Commands for more reliable exile pieces. That they exile also makes them better choices for postboard games, because Den Protector usually shows up in Game 2 if not in Game 1, and preventing your opponent from regrowing their most valuable threats is a big deal going long.
Nissa, Vastwood Seer comes in as a way to bridge us in turn 3. Voice of Zendikar was the way that this deck bridged the gap, putting another body in play and a planeswalker that needs to be answered -- but since we cut her after board and we bring in higher-mana plays (you really want Den Protector to be a 5-drop, and Linvala is of course a 6-drop), what we really want is just to put a generic 2/2 into play and make sure our fourth land drop for Gideon is on time, as Gideon can usually bridge us to Avacyn and Linvala and Dromoka. On a related note, with Leap to find your other Nissa and Den Protectors to regrow any dead ones, you should be more liberal with the 2/2 body that Vastwood Seer brings. It's tempting to withhold her so she transforms right on turn 7, but you lose many more games from just not making it to turn 7 or 7 lands or whatever than you do from prematurely firing off your Nissa as a chump blocker and then not being able to get her back later.
These games tend to play out similarly to Game 1, but they're tougher because your opponent is more likely to be on the Leap plan after board, and because people are starting to wise up to the fact that going bigger is better for the mirror postboard. I think the construction of this deck still gives a fundamental edge over most GW lists -- Dromoka is the ultimate trump and the sideboard plan from Gerry Thompson is still very good, even when people start to expect it.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
What i can't understand is why everybody run 4-of Oath of Nissa. Yes, it allows to keep riskier hands and helps to curve out, but playing it when you're behind, and looking at Tragic Arrogance you could have drawn instead is just embarrassing. I usually side in more answers (removal, wraths, leaps), and don't want them at the bottom of my library because of Oath, so i ended up siding out most of them every time. 2 color manabase feels extremely solid, and i never regretted i didn't have Oath after sideboard. That basically questions if it has to be in the main... Am I missing anything?
Current list.
4 Archangel Avacyn
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Sylvan Advocate
2 Den Protector
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
Planeswalkers (8)
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4 Oath of Nissa
2 Evolutionary Leap
Spells (6)
4 Dromoka's Command
2 Declaration in Stone
Lands (25)
4 Canopy Vista
4 Fortified Village
9 Forest
8 Plains
1 Den Protector
3 Lambholt Pacifist
1 Linvala, the Preserver
2 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Evolutionary Leap
1 Quarantine Field
1 Silkwrap
1 Stasis Snare
1 Angelic Purge
1 Declaration in Stone
2 Planar Outburst
I cut Secure the Wastes completely because it just wasn't very good in the sideboard and wasn't worth the maindeck space. For every game it steals where no other card could get the job done, there's about 3-4 more where they have the Virulent Plague or Kozilek's Return and another 8-9 you just never end up playing it because you have stronger things to do at every point in the game.
Once that happened, I noticed that Westvale Abbey just... never did anything. Making a token almost never happens for me these days and flipping it into Ormendahl? As if... they always have the Anguished Unmaking, the Stasis Snare, the Reflector Mage, whatever. Ormendahl isn't even that impossible against you, given the presence of Evolutionary Leap and Hangarback Walker. Pitching a successfully-wide board to get one big dude is so often not necessary and very risky that you don't even do it unless you're guaranteed to have it -- and it's not like your opponents are all just dummies that tap out for you once you have five disposable guys, five lands, and Abbey in play.
Then you notice all the double-white cards, and that Abbey is often the worst land in the deck for the first 8 or so turns in the game, and that most of your games are decided more by successful development in those turns than by Ormendahl late, and you start to wonder why you even bother with the card anyway. In the end, I decided that my deck is strong enough if it can just do its thing consistently, so I cut Abbey.
The rest of the maindeck is straightforward, I cut the 26th land for the 4th Oath of Nissa because the Oath is just better to have than the land. The Oath is very frequently just a land anyway if that's what you need it to be, and really, the main reason we play 26 lands is to have more keepable opening 7s (increases the odds, however marginally, of having perfect 3-landers instead of dicey 2-landers)... but Oath of Nissa is just straight up the best card in the deck to have in your opening hand since it's almost always just going to be whatever your hand needed to be perfect. Oath is also sometimes a threat late when a land obviously isn't.
The sideboard is where things are still fluid and I'm just not sure I'll ever settle on one "correct" 75. Rationale for each:
1 Den Protector: Does a little bit of everything pretty well. It trades decently with the aggressive decks in the format, clocks planeswalkers in the mirror, just gets us on board when we need early pressure, and obviously shines in longer games. Great hit off of Leap to get back planeswalkers or removal spells from the graveyard. Tends to come in a lot, but the early-body-on-board is unnecessary since the deck already has a lot of early plays, and it's easy to flood on the kicker mode, so you only want 2 main and the 3rd in the sideboard.
3 Lambholt Pacifist // Lambholt Butcher: There are a few matchups, like the Prison deck and the Ux Fliers deck, where your best bet of beating them is just assembling 20 damage to them at the first possible opportunity. Pacifist, ironically, is one of your best tools in the toolbox for this. You don't want to maindeck it because it's still not a high-powered card, but it gets the job done very well in matchups where being too skewed toward the "good card midrange" axis of the deck is a bad thing. Could possibly be a full 4 copies, but the Pacifist is at her best when you play her on 2 and she either naturally flips on turn 3 or gets pumped into attack range on turn 3, so you ideally just want to find one early with an enabler, rather than drawing 2 or even 3 Pacifists with no pump effect.
1 Linvala, the Preserver: Best card in the format for catching you up. Most lists play 2 in the board for matchups where you try to be a little bigger and more controlling than your opponent, but I never found myself wanting for her effect at one copy -- if anything I sometimes had trouble making the one copy good! -- and maindecking a Dragonlord Dromoka really limits your ability to play more than one Linvala anyway, since they do very similar things. One seems best.
2 Nissa, Vastwood Seer // Nissa, Sage Animist: She's possibly the best card in GW for "bridging" you from your first plays to your best cards. Put simply, this deck would be willing to spend mana on turn 3 to guarantee that it has four lands on turn 4 for Gideon, five for Avacyn or Planar Outburst, etc. In matchups where it's critical to get to your more expensive cards on-time to win (Wr Humans for instance, but also Bant Humans, Bant Company, etc.), creature Nissa is a much better card than planeswalker Nissa. Planeswalker Nissa is very powerful and the deck's best "bridge" preboard, since it's a much more proactive card, but she can be a liability to protect in creature matchups and can be more generally low-impact sometimes (there are lots of games where Plants and counters don't mean that much). Creature Nissa gets you to your high-impact cards -- most of the time she's just getting a Forest and then chumping/trading. But if she sticks around until the later game, or if you buy her back with Den Protector, she becomes your most threatening card on flip -- drawing into more good spells and then outright winning the game four turns later. She comes in a lot, just accompanying your more reactive, expensive spells and especially for longer games.
1 Evolutionary Leap: Strictly for decks (generally BWx decks) that can exile your other copies. Two is fine, even for the matchups where it's good, because Den Protector can buy it back if it gets destroyed; but if it's exiled then you can sometimes go quite a while without finding another one. The third copy helps for that. With that said, I'm considering cutting this, because it seems like a wasted slot if I don't bring it in for matchups where it would be good (Grixis, the mirror), but only for ones that answer it easily. Just seems like inconsistent reasoning to me.
1 Quarantine Field: Good catchall answer, basically in the class of Anguished Unmaking and, before it, Utter End and Silence the Believers. It's unbelievably powerful if you ever get to kick it at least once and at least acceptable unkicked, but since you really want to kick it at least once, you can't afford to play multiple copies. Definitely play one, but I don't think I'd play more.
1 Silkwrap: The diversity of removal spells you'll see in this list is mainly because I didn't like how I would board up to four Declaration in Stone when I went to a more controlling look -- it's pretty bad if you're trying to control the game but your best removal spell gives them cards later. So I ended up scaling back on Dec in Stone a bit, but nothing else fit the bill of being two-mana and unconditional. I'm trying out one Silkwrap for Humans decks and Company decks (especially ones with Eldrazi Displacer), since it's just two mana and doesn't draw them a card. Will see how this goes.
1 Stasis Snare: Very possible this should be 2x, especially since it's an instant-speed removal spell in a deck lacking for them, but three mana is a little awkward given how low to the ground some decks force you to be. Snare is very good and comes in almost all the time, just not where you have to be quick.
1 Angelic Purge: This was suggested to me on /r/spikes and I think it's a good adjustment from Declaration in Stone. It obviously has its downsides: three mana is again an awkward number for mere spot removal, and in this case it's not even a true turn-3 play unless you want to set yourself back a land. Sacrificing an Oath of Nissa is the dream, but outside of that you probably need to wait a bit. That said, the upside of being unconditional exile removal that also hits key enchantments (biggest offenders: opposing Evolutionary Leap, Virulent Plague, Gryff's Boon) and even artifacts (Hedron Archive, Pyromancer's Goggles) is very high. You can't really play multiples of it, but one is very good.
1 Declaration in Stone: Look, it's still good, ok? Just... not 4-of good. You don't want to give your opponents cards. You still bring it in for most matchups since you gotta be able to snipe key creatures, and this card's rate and multi-hit potential are phenomenal, but the downside is real, so be careful.
2 Planar Outburst: You need a wrath in the sideboard. This one, I like more than Tragic Arrogance, because you don't have to jump through hoops to keep your planeswalkers, and you don't have to leave them a creature that really needed to die. The blowout potential from Avacyn against Bant is real, so be careful, but otherwise Outburst is more in line with your deck's goals when you do bring in wrath effects. I also recently went down to two copies from three, because I found myself in spots where I didn't actually need a wrath -- just another powerful permanent to break open a board state that was more or less at parity.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
Postboard you're trying to make it to 5 mana for either Avacyn + flip right afterward, or Planar Outburst.
Your planeswalkers don't really mean much. They're there as bridges to your 5-mana stabilizers. Don't go out of your way to keep their loyalty high. If you can trade for their creatures, you always do it. Your trades usually involve Knight Ally tokens for real cards, which is big.
Once you've made whatever trades you can make, you should make blocks to keep your planeswalkers alive. If you can't save them without trading, then it depends on what your next turn looks like as to whether or not you should abandon trading -- if you're going to wrath next turn then you should aggressively protect your planeswalkers, since they're your tickets to victory once you've reset the board; if you have a backup planeswalker then make the trade; and so on.
BUT, once you've made blocks to keep them alive, you should generally prefer to leave their loyalty lower and keep an extra blocker, if possible. Gideon and Nissa do the same thing at any amount of loyalty in this matchup so there's no significant incentive to keep their loyalty higher.
Postboard you should be more aggressive with defending your life total instead of looking to use your life as a buffer to make trades. You have a real wrath effect in Planar Outburst to catch up, so you don't have to try to gain incremental advantages through trades, and they have Reckless Bushwhacker for a hasty final burst of damage after a wrath, so your incentives should shift to preserving your life total more aggressively and riding on your more reliable wrath effects to catch up. That gives you the latitude to use your life as a buffer for trading when you would most like to: during their last-ditch damage burst that tries to either win the game on the spot or put them so close that they can chump attack into you for the win on the next turn.
Cards that are good to have out of the board:
- Any 2-mana removal you might be able to side into (extra Declaration in Stone or Silkwraps). Dec in Stone gets awkward because you can actually outgrind yourself if you lean too hard on it, but that's usually less likely than just dying outright to a big Thalia's Lieutenant or whatever so it's worth.
- Lambholt Pacifist. Really shines here. Den Protector and even Nissa, Vastwood Seer are serviceable -- Protector comes down on turn 2 to give you an extra blocker to set up your planeswalkers to bridge to your wraths, Nissa gets your 4th/5th land for the wrath and then gives you one good block. Both are also great topdecks once you've stabilized.
- Obviously you need your wrath, but avoid other splashy effects. Linvala, Dragonlord Dromoka, and the like are strong cards and obviously will slam the door shut on a game, but you should be significantly favored to win a game that gets into topdecking if you get there at a reasonable life total; better to play cards that maximize your chances of getting to that point (which Linvala and Dromoka don't do).
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
Is anybody else becoming very unimpressed with Declaration in Stone?
I play two in the maindeck because it's a cheap all-purpose answer, which is what you want in your game 1s. But the extra card is a real drawback, and it's ironically at its worst in the matchups where you would most likely bring it in. You want extra all-purpose answers when you're trying to slant toward a more controlling look and go bigger than your opponent, such as when you play against Bant Humans or the GBx Tireless Tracker - Sylvan Advocate - Duskwatch Recruiter decks or the mirror. But giving them extra cards when we want to go long is very counterproductive and puts us in a hole when we try to answer these proactive card advantage threats.
I went from a third Evo Leap (which was excessive and rarely ever came in), one Stasis Snare and two Dec in Stone to two Stasis Snare and two Silkwrap, and so far I think it's an improvement. Silkwrap is awkward sometimes when you want more all-purpose answers, but it's very efficient for what it does and I've liked it every time I've seen it.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
I was on BW control for a long time, which wants every game to be grindy. In saying that, it hurts a lot in grindy matchups. I went from 4 to 2 to 0. And the deck didn't miss it.
I like the 1 in Rubin's list as a 1 catches all sort of thing and then you can bring in extras for the matchups you like.
Scasseden: What are your thoughts on the winning list from Pitt running Deathmist Raptor out of the side? Wasn't really sure what to make of it. Historically it was nice to package with den protector vs control, but people are only running 2-3 Den protectors.
On Declaration in Stone, I don't mind 2 in the MD. It's been really useful in taking care of cards that matter like
Drowner of Hope
World Breaker
Ulamog, the Ceaseless
and tokens in general. I don't think this what you in grindy matches but it is unconditional Exile removal for the price of 2 mana and them having to crack a clue and draw a card for 2. It's fine and efficient. The control player in me doesn't mind giving my opponent a clue if it means I can punch a hole in their board state and start chipping in for damage. Generally I position myself to expect them to commit to the board and deal with my threats, I think the fact that G/W tokens threats demand answers makes a card like dec in stone really good. It gets rid of anything and since you are also going wide and gaining incremental advantages here and there you stay at parity in the long run.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
I've just been playing 2 in the board, but I brought them in for matches where I wanted to go long and outgrind people... which seems like a significant mistake. I eventually cut both the sideboard ones for more Stasis Snare and Silkwrap and I think it's working a bit better, but haven't tested enough to be sure.
RE: Deathmist Raptor, it seems unnecessary to me. I love our long game with Evolutionary Leap, Den Protector, and Nissa, Vastwood Seer. Raptor is nice for those games but it seems like a misallocation of precious sideboard spots -- I would love to pack more Silkwrap for Wx Humans and Stasis Snare and a second Q-Field for the longer games as it is, but I can't make the space for them, let alone if I had some number of Raptors clogging things up.
It's also not actually all that powerful imo. Some decks just can't beat the Raptor, but those same decks tend to struggle with looping Avacyn flips off of Hangarback Walkers and buying back Avacyn or Gideon 10,000 times with Den Protector or just getting caught with their pants at their ankles when Dragonlord Dromoka shows up. We already go over the top of a lot of decks in the format in longer games, unlike the various smallball Collected Company decks that have historically banked on Raptor to put in work there.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
I played it tonight for fnm and went 1-1-1. I boarded in my bigger pieces, and it carried me in game 2 on the play. Game 3 on the draw, we
Went to turns.
Wonder if I should have gone thr aggro route with Pacifists and Surrak
1) What is the set up of the Ramp deck? Is the 4 Ulamog Version or 4 Atarka? How many K's Returns are they running, and what are their early plays?
2) You have to approach this match with your mind set being "I'm the beat down".
Next, what version of Tokens are you running? Are you playing Pacifists?
Play and Phases vs Ramp.
I'm a ramp player, love ramp, and while I have tons of experience with the deck, I don't ever lose to it. Mainly because I know every single configuration that deck can be (I tested and jammed god knows how many cards early on to figure the perfect 60, I never got there).
1) You must have T2 Advocate/ Pacifist or Hangarback
2) -2 Nissa always and get your Dudes to 4+ toughness range.
3) T4 Gideon on the play + board presence is usually enough (The 4 Atarka Version can be a problem though, it's got a great G1 against You)
4) Avacyn while good on the play is terrible on the draw, I'm going Atarka and World Breaker or Chandra, you're either tapped out or haven't made your 5th land drop. Cut down to 2 Avacyn's if on the draw.
5) Quarantine Field isn't terrible, it's not great but it can clean up things and allow you stall.
6) Dec in Stone is a must.
After SB you have to judge what removal is needed, D's COmmand isn't great against the 2nd half K's Return but it is great at applying Pressure. Force a ramp player to sac Oath of Nissa and put a +1 +1 counter on your 2 drop to apply more pressure. Look at their mana, do they have double R? Do they have shrines out with 7 lands in play? Remember that A ramp player can cast K's Return with 2 lands is they have Shrine + red source up. It's not uncommon to see
Play K's Return, then Chandra - or World Breaker
You really want to cut things that aren't great, usually went something like this:
+ 2 Pacifist, + 2 Dec on Stone, + 1 Quarantine Field,
-2 Avacyn (On the play I went as far as cutting them all out), -1 to -2 D's Command, -1 Hangarback, , You can cut Leap if you feel like hangarback is to slow. Den Protector is a 2 drop that gets in there.
On Jaddi's= remove on sight. If I stick 1-2 Jaddi's and get anywhere close to 25+ life you rarely win.
Be aggressive, and try to not over commit to the board, Leave some cards back to rebuild. Leap is good, especially is it's the Atarka version. Hope this helps.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
I didn't blow up the Jaddi's in any game, that was probably the biggest factor now that you mention it.
If you have something like Dromoka's Command, then going after Offshoot with it is smart, but don't use something like Declaration in Stone. Save that for the big guys.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
1. It's either the best or second best deck in the format
2. It should only get better with the new set.
3. Unlike CoCo-based decks, it remains a viable deck after the fall rotation (almost all the cards are BFZ or later).
I'm choosing a build closest to the one that won GP Pittsburg. However, what do you all think are the cards from Eldritch Moon that I should consider obtaining for the deck? I'm thinking Collective Effort seems obvious. Sanctifier of Souls seems okay but at 4 CMC I'm not sure. Thalia, Heretic Cathar doesn't synergize at all with the deck, but I can't help but wonder if this is a card that should simply be in any deck that plays white. Thraben Standard Bearer? I dunno, but it does give us a 1-drop that can make tokens.
Collective Effort will be good too i guess :).
But it seems noone is testing with the new cards currently, since everyone is testing new ***** before.
There also is Gisela, the broken blade. I think she kinda is too good to not play too.
7x Forest
4x Canopy Vista
4x Fortified Village
2x Westvale Abbey
4x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4x Hangarback Walker
4x Sylvan Advocate
2x Archangel Avacyn
2x Gisela, the Broken Blade
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1x Bruna, the Fading Light
2x Evolutionary Leap
4x Dromoka's Command
2x Tragic Arrogance
2x Declaration in Stone
2x Den Protector
2x Hallowed Moonlight
2x Lambholt Pacifist
2x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2x Stasis Snare
1x Dragonlord Dromoka
1x Linvala, the Preserver
1x Planar Outburst
I would consider getting some copies of Collective Effort if you're intending to play this deck after Kaladesh is released, but Dromoka's Command seems like it's just better for the moment and the deck is actually really tight on space for utility cards like that one. Sanctifier of Souls looks like the same effect as Sigarda, Heron's Grace, but worse, even accounting for the mana difference. Spirits are better than Soldiers though.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar is good. I think that card will probably end up in the deck to help the planeswalkers set up, since she constrains our opponents' mana development. Definitely recommend getting her.
Thraben Standard Bearer looks terrible, this deck's card quality is higher than that. Making our cards into 1/1 Spirit tokens for free wouldn't be something we care to play. Thraben Inspector fits the 1-drop slot better and it was cut for, you guessed it, card quality reasons.
Gisela looks like a massive trap. The deck is actually very short on space for >3cmc cards, and really can't afford to play ones that line up awfully against Reflector Mage. Mage is set to see a massive upswing in use, because EMN saw a bunch of cards printed that support some kind of Bant/UW Midrange deck that really wants his effect (not to mention existing Bant Company shells), and also brought some potential to archetypes that play cards that are weak to Reflector Mage (GB Delirium with Mindwrack Demon, W + anything with Gisela/Bruna).
If you want to try a more expensive, high-power new card, I would recommend Tamiyo, Field Researcher. The splash is actually very easy for two reasons:
1. We already play Oath of Nissa, which counts as four sources of 'blue' for Tamiyo. Tamiyo only needs 10 to be cast reliably.
2. We can easily cut five basics for four Evolving Wilds and an Island, and then add in a Prairie Stream over a Plains for good measure. It'll make our mana worse for sure, but the impact on the mana base won't be that high, and the payoff with Tamiyo probably makes up for it.
Something like this:
4 Canopy Vista
4 Fortified Village
1 Prairie Stream
1 Island
6 Forest
5 Plains
Braver souls could even cut 1/1 Forest/Plains for two Westvale Abbey if you care to have that angle.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
The problem is the deck is crammed and theres no way to really tweak it, lets say I want to add these 4 cards
2 x Thalia
2 x Ishkanah
What are you taking out, the Hangerbacks might be the worst card in the deck now with coco but being able to sac them to Avacyn without costing mana is a huge deal, and they are all stars against the black control decks, The dromoka's command's feel almost untouchable, and the Oath of Nissa is pretty much needed to maintain the manabase (a problem in seemingly every g/w deck for some reason). Gideon is a must 4 of and one of the best cards in the deck, Avacyn is one of the best cards in standard, and Nissa is important to the curve for the deck. You cut the Advocates and your best weapon against white weenie decks is shut down.
I don't know heres what I would try to fit INTO the deck if I could somehow, if anyone has suggestions on the cuts let me know
3 thalia's, 1 Decimator of Province in the sideboard somewhere, and Stasis Snare x 4 somewhere in the 75; Emrakul is a real threat for this deck, and so is Brisela.
Is it time for g/w to run its own gisela/brisela package ?
I dont think the deck is done, I think it needs to adapt
I lost to BG delirium in 3 games. Whiffed with 2 oaths in game three mid game, sad days.
I beat bw control, bw angel control and the new burn deck all 2-0.
Obviously dodged the bant decks and still don't know how we line up there with Grafwidow. I know it wants to be bounced so I'm looking forward to that testing.