I think you be running Void Shatter. The exile seems to be more relevant then scatter the winds late game put a few counters on your Shambling Vent. Exiling CoCo so they can't rebuy it with Jace seems pretty good.
Shaheen saying that Transgress the Mind was miserable and that everyone should cut it immediately
Weird.
Against ramp it improves the pre board matchup a lot, hitting world breakers, chandra, ulamog, atarka.
Against Bant Company it hits CoCo, Tireless tracker, Avacyn.
Mono White Humans it hits Always watching which is what put all their threats above languish range.
Against WB Midrange, all the planeswalker, avacyn.
And it's stellar in the mirror.
I agree with Shaheen and think Transgress the Mind is pretty horrible main deck. Costing 2 is really bad. It is ok Turn 2 but does not effect the board and gets progressively worse as the game goes on. CoCo, Avacyn are instants and likely to get cast in response to Transgress the mind if mana is available. Always Watching gets cast on turn 3. Late game if your opponent is not hellbent your opponent is going to be holding removal like Declaration in Stone/Clip Wings and stuff like Negate none of which get hit by Transgress the mind. Sure sideboard it vs ramp and control mirrors. Ramp and control don't seem all that common. Not a fan of main deck discard unless it is a 2 for 1 or hits anything like Thoughtseize did.
Thought for the day: Esper Dragons used to play Jace, Vryn's Prodigy out of the sideboard to blank removal game one. Is this something we could try again? Or are we still just happy with the "well if they kill Jace that's one less spell to kill Ojutai" line?
Dragonlord Silumgar and Ojutai still gets hit with removal. Jace is even more important with no Dig Through time to get card advantage. If they don't kill Jace you get advantage from it. I actually won two games with Jace ultimate mill since I could not find another dragon something that never happened when Dig Through Time was legal.
Dead Weight I think is definitely a card we should have represented in the 75. At present I think I'd prefer it in the sideboard.
We're struggling with no big blue draw spell to sink our mana into, I agree. For the past few formats we've always had either Sphinx's Revelation or Dig Through Time, so hopefully something gets printed in Eldritch Moon for us. If Epiphany at the Drownyard is that effect's representation in this block, though...
Dead Weight can replace Surge of Rightousness in the board. I saw no mono red at my FNM.
Epiphany at the Drownyard is pretty bad, opponent never gives you what you need. If your opponent made the piles and you got to pick whch pile to take like Fact or Fiction it may be worth running.
Have to rely on Jace, Narset and Painful Truths for card advantage.
Taking this deck to FNM tomorrow, more or less the same list as before but with some cosmetic changes (I'm still missing some of the new cards but hopefully I'll manage to find them for the tournament):
Two copies of Declaration in Stone maindeck. It's too bonkers not to play. I sorely regretted my mistakes in the mana base last week when I was unable to cast this card and seal the game away against World Breaker.
Discard split. As I've mentioned before I'm going to with this split between the maindeck and sideboard. Being able to nab a Thought-Knot Seer before he hits the board seems very appealing in my expected metagame.
Thing in the Ice is something I'm still testing. It was decent last time, but I wonder if it's optimal paring it with Dead Weight after sideboarding. More Ultimate Price might be needed but that card does nothing against the eldrazi creatures and that's my biggest strike against it.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
My mana base has worked well, I might make some small changes, I'd prefer to have two havens.
I am having trouble using painful truths, when do I use it? I keep casing it and slaming into collected company and being overwhelmed. With 27 lands ergh, I draw a lot of lands. I miss dig so much :'(. Not having instant speed card draw has me off balance with just playing the deck. Should I be waiting as long as possible before casting painful truths? or cast it when I can (when I there is less pressure on my life total). Ergh it just feels wrong. I am this close to giving up on it and running anticipate, ephiphiny and preogrative just so I can feel comfortable with the flow of the deck.
I might switch from 3 grasp 1 ultimate price to 3 grasp 1 declaration now I am more confident in my ability to get white mana.
If I'm on the play, and mana allows it, I love to slam a turn 3 Painful Truths. Obviously the matchup plays a factor, and if I'm really behind on board I might be better off using some removal or counters. On the draw I'll wait until the mid to late game, when a dragon hits the board, before I gas up with truths.
Honestly this card feels perfect for the card draw engine. I'm now running it as a 4 of in my deck.
2-1 vs. Eldrazi
0-2 vs. White Weenie
2-0 vs. UW Control
2-0 vs, Eldrazi Ramp
More details on the matches themselves after some R&R.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Local tournament today.
0-2 bant company
1-2 Jund midrange
2-0 Demonic pact esper enchantments
1-1(2) White black eldrazi
2-0 GW megamorph
2-3 drop
Match 1 bant company
Game 1: Stuck on three lands couldn't do anything, painful truths hit no land
Game 2: Opponent had all the answers including Altered ego.
Match 2 Jund mid range
Game 1: Went to plan I had counters and removal for his plays
Game 2: My hand is torn apart by transgress the mind and pick the brain, I draw into painful truths and get moving again.He eventually resolves Chandra but his hand is empty and I take it with Dragonlord silumgar.. he top decks... clip wings :'( I am overwhelmed, dead.
Game 3: My hand is dragon heavy and my lands slow, I transgress his mind. I see dark dwellers, chandra, mindwrack demon,(and sylvan advocate) I take the demon since it can be cast first. he casts read the bones, I counter it with the negate I was saving for chandra. The advocate gets a couple of hits but I just draw more dragons and lands. dark dwellers, into read the bones. My only way out is if my opponent casts the chandra and I steal it with dragonlord and wrath the board. My opponent doesn't walk into the trap traveses the Uvenwald into another advocate... dead.
Match 3 Demonic pact
Game 1: Land go, I get Ojutai down he plays demonic pact. I attack with ojutai, He kill Ojutai with pact and plays starfield i counter it. this allows me to get Ob Nixis down, I tick up. The next turn I get Dragonlord's preogrative that he couldn't counter and I am way ahead. Ob will ulti and Pact will kill him he is forced to use Silumgar's command I counter it he dies to Pact.
Game 2: I mulled to 5 but I draw lots of sideboard cards basically, Kalitas, icefall regent, 2 negates and transgress the mind and he gets beat down by my dragon before he can recover.
Match 4 WB Eldrazi.
Game 1: My opponents hedron crawler was so annoying not letting me use foul-tongue invocation, my hand gets hit with thought-knot seer which I unmake he resolves Ob nix. Which puts pressure onto me to get Ojutai down. But my ultimate price doesn't work on eldrazi displacer and he used it to protect his Ob Nix. now it can ulti, but he kills Ojutai with it. but its too much value for him and I scoop it up.
Game 2: I keep a risky hand, E wilds + island. two counters and two powerful 5 drops. He takes my Ojutai with transgress, seeing my bad hand. I draw the land I need. I get down Ob Nix easily but he Unmakes it. I find a second Ojutai and beat him down before he recovers from flood.
Game 3: My mana starts off bad and thats allows my opponent to infinite obliteration on dragonlord Ojutai. thought-knot ( takes negate), I draw unmaking to take it out but I am forced to tap low and he resolves Sorin. I play Ob nix in reply to try to find an answer. I don't find it. he reveals a land phew, reality smasher.. uh oh!. he attacks it all at Ob, phew. I draw.... Dragonlord silumgar! take sorin shoot smasher gain 8 life... time.. Opponent rebuilds he board, I draw lands.. he doesn't attack for some reason and we just draw.
I concede as he was paired down and still has a chance to top 8.
Match 5 GW metamorph
Game 1: this kid is soo annoying. He builds quite the board, foul-tongue takes out a inspector. I fall to 5 from the beat down before I get Ojutai to block. I draw.. Languish :D. I attack find silumgar's scorn and wrath the board. Opponent still has an active Nissa. he ticks up Nissa finds deathmist raptor.. void shatter it (he is mad about that). I take Nissa with dragonlord silumgar. tick down put a 4/4 down. he silkwraps it. Then snares dragonlord. Another lull in the game he rebuilds a board but I double foul-tougne to clean his board with a dragon in hand gain 8. vent kills nissa. painful truths into the 4th foul tongue. Opponent floods out and Beat him to death with shambling vents.
Game 2: mana is annoying agian. he gets evolutionary leap which is great for him then kills my jace with dromoka's command (still in his deck). Again I hit his death mist with void shatter (he is very mad because he though my prairie stream with a shambling vent). he plays sylvan advocate which I lock down with icefall regent which he plummets, I play 2nd icefall regent keep it locked down. Then I get Ojutai but he kills off both on attack with surge of righteousness and immolating glare. deathmist raptor, haven of the spirit dragon returning icefall instead of Ojutai (probably wrong) tap down the deathmist, Den protector, tries to dromoka command (+1/+1 on den) fight with deathmist, I unmake it he can't use evoultion as he tapped out. He then plummets the icefall that he had returned with another den protector.I get hit for 7 by two unblockable den protectors. I steal nissa with dragonlord silumgar make a 4/4. I get an attack in with dragonlord. He draws always watching that makes his Den protectors unblockable by 4/4 or dragonlord... hitting me down to 1 with the 5/4 unblockable den protector. I reveal Ojutai with nissa. 5 power blocker. I attack silumgar. I have him dead in the air next turn he has to attack to trade with the ojutai. Which he does. I attack with Dragonlord and 4/4 and make a new 4/4 with Nissa to block and play Kalitas. he scoops.
I drop, even though I won. eventhough I was dropping I didn't give him the win because he was sooo annoying blergh kids
blergh went badly mostly :/. I really mis Dig and I still hate painful truths as powerful as it is it just isn't what I want to be doing. Mana is awkward but okay, I still don't like how many tapped lands it makes being able to use counters in a timely manner to be a challenge. I think perhaps I will ignore some of the pro's builds and go on a bit of a brew to get something I actually like instead of what is proven to be good. the deathbringer was a mistake, I wanted an Ugin like trump but I never cast it there was more go wide in my practice games than I saw at the tourney. In goes the icefall (I only own 3 ojutai I have played 2 jace and 3 Ojtuai the whole time but with Dig it wasn't a problem). Also I only could find 3 choked estuary this week no one seems to have them. I didn't get the amount of practice that I'd like to have because I didn't have the deck yet.
2-0 vs. the delirium intro pack. no need to explain further.
1-2 vs. Bant Company
Really great 3 games against Bant Company. Game 1 I was completely mana screwed and I didn't hit any black sources until my 6th land drop, and it came into play tapped. This was with 2 Painful Truths and a Foul-Tongue Invocation in hand. Game 2 I eventually won just grinding opponent down with Ojutai, and countering Archangel Avacyn with Ojutai's Command. Game 3 was a real close one, and I made a big mistake when I went to cast Ojutai, my opponent countered with an Ojutai's Command of his own, then I went to counter that with Silumgar's Scorn except that the dragon was on the stack, not in play or in my hand, so I lost 2 cards on that exchange, while opponent drew a card. From there it was an uphill struggle until a couple Sylvan Advocate slammed in for the win
0-2 vs. W/U Humans
Game 1 I got aggro'ed down and lost to a 6/6 Thalia's Lieutenant. For game 2 I sided in my cards to line up better against aggro, only for my opponent to literally side in all 15 cards and completely change the archetype from aggro to a control deck. I ended up losing to a Dragonlord Ojutai with Always Watching and a Gideon Emblem all in play, so it was a 7/6 flier that was always hexproof.
1-2 vs. R/B Eldrazi Aggro
Game 1 I got aggro'ed down pretty quick. After side I lined up better, but it turned into some grindy matches. I won the second game by just grinding opponent down, and lost the 3rd game after making some suboptimal mistakes that were mostly made from tiredness.
I really liked how the deck lined up against Bant Company. If I didn't make that big mistake, and didn't get a bad draw for mana in game 1, that round could have easily gone my way. I made a few mistakes, but the Esper dragons deck can win that late game value in this matchup. The only thing I don't like is how Languish lines up with a Sylvan Advocate once the 6th land hits. Other than that, with Languish, Ojutai's Command, Jace's flashback, and my dragonlords, I'm getting 2 or 3 to 1 on a lot of exchanges and just winning that long game with value.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy was a monster. This is an essential card that must be a 4 of. Any thoughts of cutting him or skipping him need to be put away.
Declaration in Stone however may need to be cut. While I originally fell in love with this card, in most any matchup the opponent will get to cash in the clue. It's a trade off to gain some tempo, but lose value, and as of now I'm not convinced the trade off is worth it.
Languish was huge as well. I'm glad I made some tweaks to get it at a 3 of in MD. Got a ton of value with this card, going on average 3 for 1. I'm considering siding in Planar Outburst against any deck that uses Sylvan Advocate, but other than that I'm really happy with the performance.
Thing in the Ice was awesome as well. I didn't get to flip it in any matchup, but the card filled the role very nicely as a 2 drop to slow down the tempo and beats from some of these faster decks. Typically it's getting removed or bounced before it transforms, which I'm ok with given the amount of time and life it can buy me. My strategy with it has been to play normally, but if opponent has 3+ creatures on board then some suboptimal plays would be ok to get it transformed (like flashing back a silumgar's scorn with no target, just to flip it and bounce 3+ creatures).
Changed the Ultimate Price to the 4th Thing in the Ice in the last second. Didn't work out as I hoped it would and I'm starting to think this whole "last minute changes" shtick isn't exactly paying off. On to the matches:
Round 1 vs. UR Eldrazi (or was it mono red?) 2-1
Game one was a steal since he drew three mana dorks in the and nothing to ramp into. Game two there was a lot of back and forth but I was eventually low enough on life for him to Blaze me out of the game. He was prepared for Thing in the Ice after sideboarding since that's how I beat him last time. Third game was decided by a topdecked Tragic Arrogance which cleared the board enough to make sure Foul-Tongue Invocation hit his only blocker and allow me to swing for lethal with Dragonlord Ojutai. This was the game in which I previously played Epiphany at the Drownyard for 7U and hit eight (8) lands!
I have no trouble recommending Tragic Arrogance after this match to anyone who plans to win with Ojutai. It can deal with some of the stuff other wrath effects can't (Reality Smasher) while still leaving us with Ojutai in play. I don't think I would want to play more then one though.
Round 2 vs. White Humans 0-2
This match was a downer. I lost the first game due to misassignment of blockers and the second one to a mull to 5 on the play. I have played several post sideboard games after the match and the games were tight at worst. Cutting the Ultimate Price was really felt in these games. The 4th Thing was excessive and didn't do much. After this match I'm thinking about cutting them down to three, possibly even two.
Round 3 vs. UW Control 2-0
This was just a brutal game. Without Dig Through Time he could never find the cards to deal with Ojutai while all of my cards trumped his. To be honest, his list didn't pack that many Jaces either so the rotation was doubly felt here. The second game was similar, with him being left with a smidgen of cards in hand and me with dragons which flew over his ground army of tokens. Lilvala made an appearance from his deck, but it was easily trumped by Dragonlord Silumgar.
Round 4 vs Eldrazi Ramp 2-0
Another easy match. Basically countered all of his ramp spells and discarded or killed his big drops while Ojutai did his thing. I don't know if it's due to the deck's design or to his bad luck but don't remember this matchup ever being this easy.
Overall I'm quite happy with this list and would recommend it to people interested in the deck. Epiphany at the Drownyard was O.K. if not very good. One thing I've learned during this tournament is that I shouldn't shy from playing it to see an odd number of cards. You still get to divide the cards as you see fit and I'm sure that with practice I will get even better at this. The mana base was fine. I'm not sure about the 2nd Haven of the Spirit Dragon but I'm unsure about cutting it. Having the effect seems important enough to me to want two but it's really bad to see more then one of these against fast aggro decks in the early game. You can still play it but you need a sound plan for those decks after sideboarding.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Again completely different decks and mana bases. Justins deck is UWb rather than UBw that most lists are.
I went back too look at the original list, from pro tour dragons, just to reset and look at the core of the deck again, It really was a UB control deck with dragons back then. The mana had a lot of tap lands.
The brewing continues.
I like duress in that you could prevent them dealing with Ojutai and it deals with walkers but there are two decks with very high creature counts right now and it will miss.. a lot. The problem is that a lot of the time we aren't interacting until turn 3 since mana is tricky for the BB for grasp or UU for scorn, just having something like duress to know what I am up against and how to sequence the mana would be useful. If, in my folly perhaps, I cut painful truths can I then play more Anguished unmaking? basically playing it like hero's downfall. lots of random ideas no substance yet.
Does anyone else struggle in the B/W control matchup? Maybe I'm just getting outplayed, I'm not sure, but I keep getting beat pretty bad by this deck. I'm consistently behind on card adtvantage, and eventually the opponent ends up with Sorin, Grim Nemesis and Ob Nixilis Reignited on the board, and I get grinded down to nothing. Any thoughts on SB or tips on gameplay against B/W, and just against control and mirror in general.
I also got beat pretty bad the other day by an Esper Pact deck. This list was spot on, and I just got 0-2'ed easily.
My current list is an almost near identical copy to Kyle Mathis, except I'm not MD Transgress The Mind in favor of 2 more copies of Grasp of Darkness and I have 1 copy of Haven for lands and 2 Vents.
For brewing I'm thinking of trying 3 copies of Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim on the SB to replace Arashin Cleric and use it for the W/x Humans and CoCo decks. The body seems right for the meta. Any thoughts?
Played against a WB control deck in the finals of a small tournament yesterday. Won the match and the tourney but the games were as tough as nails.
The matchup is as hard as it used to be, but I think we still have the better card advantage engines. Dragonlord Silumgar is a good solution to the walkers once they hit the board. Normally I try to tax the walkers out of loyalty rather then have them stick around if I can't back up Silumgar with coutners and/or disruption. Declaration in stone is quite good against some of the threats they play (Hangback Walker, Secure the Wastes and even Gideon, Ally of Zendikar). Wrath effects in general seem quite bad against these decks since more often then not they aren't cost effective. They are horrendous at delaying Westvale Abbey, which can be a real issue if you aren't prepared for fighting that fight).
Epiphany at the Drownyard in particular was sound in this matchup since it allowed me to go through more cards then any other draw spell did. It also made flipping Jace laughably easy which is quite important still. The reasoning here is that you can flashback anything they bin with Jace and you can recur Ojutai with Haven of the Spirit Dragon. Most importantly, the card works at instant speed which allows me to present counters during their turn (Negate is still a workhorse in this matchup).
Ayli does't do what you need it to do against the decks you've mentioned, though I might be biased on the basis that this deck can't use the "whole animal". If you want blockers Thing in the Ice is probably better. It can force these decks to overextend into mass removal like Languish and/or Flaying Tendrils.
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Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Ok, that actually helps a lot. I've been playing the W/B control matchup trying to fill the beat down role, but your saying we can play the long game and gain better card advantage and win with control against them. Permission spells seem to be the key to the game, deciding when to cast your scorns and negates. Also Duress seems very important as well. I feel like Dragonlord's Prerogative might be a better fit than Epiphany, because you're looking to cast Epiphany with around 6 cmc anyways, so prerogative just gives you a more efficient draw spell. Yeah, I'll have to work on this matchup a little bit and just go the more heavy control style of play.
While I do love Thing in the Ice I was considering Ayli because the body lines up nicely for early blocks against Dragon Hunter and the like, she can trade with anything in the midgame, so if that means keeping a giant 6/6 Thalia's Lieutenant in check I am ok with that, and she could possibly have some lifegain towards end game. Just spitballing.
I've been really impressed lately with the power that a Ob Nixilis Reignited and Sorin, Grim Nemesis combo can bring when they're both in play. I've actually been thinking of dropping dragons, and going a more general Esper Control deck where the Dragonlords get replaced with 3 Sorins and 3 Obs. Replace Foul Tongue with To The Slaughter and replace the scorns with Clash of Wills, Void Shatter, and possibly even Horribly Awry. You could even replace Painful Truths with some combination of epiphany and prerogative, and have your sweepers be the only sorcery speed spells, and just play a more classic control style of play of draw and pass your turn and leave your mana up. It would be a much slower style of play, and one of the reasons I prefer the dragon control decks is because the dragons not only provide card advantage, but they are a hard clock for the opponent as well, whereas the walkers, though a much more solid form of inevitability, are a much slower clock. Not sure.
Ok, that actually helps a lot. I've been playing the W/B control matchup trying to fill the beat down role, but your saying we can play the long game and gain better card advantage and win with control against them. Permission spells seem to be the key to the game, deciding when to cast your scorns and negates. Also Duress seems very important as well. I feel like Dragonlord's Prerogative might be a better fit than Epiphany, because you're looking to cast Epiphany with around 6 cmc anyways, so prerogative just gives you a more efficient draw spell. Yeah, I'll have to work on this matchup a little bit and just go the more heavy control style of play.
You are definitely the control deck in this matchup. Their goal is to use discard to make sure their midgame haymakers like Gideon and misc others finish you before you recuperate. They also compliment this with enough removal spells for Dragonlord Ojutai to choke a puppy. If you can maintain some semblance of parity while keeping their threats off the table you should be able to get your card advantage engines online, regardless of what cards you actually use. Duress and Negate are golden after sideboarding, but Transgress the Mind also hits their relevant cards which Duress can't, such as Thought-Knot Seer or Archangel Avacyn. While Dragonlord's Prerogative is good in any game where you expect to face a lot of hand disruption I don't think it replaces Epiphany at the Drownyard. The problem here is that the card come online pretty late in the game and most if not all of the discard they play will have a chance to hit it before you get to the mana to cast it. Epiphany doesn't adhere to any of those constraints. You can play at practically any point and still be up by at least a card.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I have a sneaky suspicion there's only a copy of Esper Dragons in the top 8 because it was piloted by Shota Yasooka rather than because the deck's any good right now.
I think the deck has quite a few things going for it, but the fact is that the optimal list hasn't surfaced yet. Shota is a genius for taking what I'm all but convinced is a suboptimal list as far as he did. Languish and Dragonlord Ojutai don't play well together. We naturally have to play some number of them, but I think incorporating Tragic Arrogance would go a long way towards fixing this deck's shortcomings.
Tragic Arrogance does as an approximate Crux of Fate impersonation as we can hope to get, it might be even better in some corner cases. Apart from being a mass removal spell which doesn't kill Dragonlord Ojutai another thing this card has going for it is that it, unlike Planar Outburst goes around Archangel Avacyn, it is one of the very few wrath effects we have access to that can kill a 4/5 Sylvan Advocate and it can destroy non-creature permanents, most notably planeswalkers and artifacts.
One argument in favor of Tragic Arrogance is the fact that both Andrea and Rubin sided the card in against each other. The card is actively good against both decks featured in the finals of the PT. If the card does work against both Bant Company and GW tokens, isn't this good enough of a reason that we adopt the card ourselves, especially since we can play it with way more upside then either of these decks? Picture a scenario in which we cast Tragic Arrogance with Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet in play - it's as busted as it sounds.
The manabase can accommodate it, the CoCo mana base certainly did and they played fewer lands. If it can't it most certainly should be remade to be able to.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
So here is where I'm at with Esper Dragons right now. The Esper control deck that is using the walkers has a much more solid end game. The combination of Narset TranscendentJace, Unraveler of SecretsOb Nixilis Reignited and Sorin, Grim Nemesis are just a much better, stronger version of inevitability and card advantage. I've mentioned my struggle with B/W control, this is entirely because of the fact that I do not run enough walker removal in my MD to deal multiple Sorins and Obs, as a result the player usually gets both resolved at some point. When Sorin and Ob Nixilis are on the field together, it's devastating and I usually have no way of coming back. Throw Narset and Jace Unraveler into the mix and the card advantage generation is game ending.
What I want to figure out now is why use the dragonlords as the win condition? What do they offer that the walkers don't? The obvious answer is the dragons offer a much quicker clock than the walkers, but i think figuring out exactly the advantages of using dragons over the walkers is paramount for refining the deck to be optimal. The answer may simply be that dragons is going to be suboptimal compared to the walker version of the deck, I don't know. I'm running 1 copy of Sorin and 1 copy of Ob in my MD now, and to be honest, I'm much happier to draw either of them than I am drawing a dragon. Just some thoughts for moving forward.
An interesting list from Shota. I'm still trying to figure out the 1 copy of Read the Bones and 2 copies Painful Truths split. I guess maybe for some scrying? I'm also really liking Kalitas in the SB. He has great synergy with control decks, his body is perfect in a world of 2/3's and 3/3's, and the lifelink has potential to be game changing in the humans / CoCo matchups, so I'm really liking him against those decks.
Tragic Arrogance does as an approximate Crux of Fate impersonation as we can hope to get, it might be even better in some corner cases. Apart from being a mass removal spell which doesn't kill Dragonlord Ojutai another thing this card has going for it is that it, unlike Planar Outburst goes around Archangel Avacyn, it is one of the very few wrath effects we have access to that can kill a 4/5 Sylvan Advocate and it can destroy non-creature permanents, most notably planeswalkers and artifacts.
I think you may be right about this. The dream is a turn 4 languish to clear the way for a turn 5 Dragonlord Ojutai, however more often than not I seem to have languish in hand with Ojutai on the board. Also, potential to destroy the 2nd copy of Always Watching that somehow seems to get out there is nice too. I plan on testing out tragic as MD sweeper. Maybe 2 copies of tragic and a single copy of languish.
I am just going to keep playing dragons because "sunk cost fallacy" . If standard is going to knock my decks out so fast there is no way I can actually afford standard. I can't even afford this deck 2 jace, 3 Ojutai.
I have switched to something approximating Shota's deck, it does feel somewhat smoother. I was complaining about how much I hate Painful truths and I still do.. playing 4 is just not something I want to do ever again. I am worried about walkers without access to unmaking. But three of the major walkers kill themselves after you steal them with Dragonlord silumgar. Now that the only main deck white is Ojutai I am also happier with the mana base that I don't need to use E wilds. The high chance for not hitting white is why he has read the bones, I like the card more than painful truths anyway.
If you are going to play tragic arrogance, a double white card, I think you should cut the black down to just painful truths and dragonlord silumgar and play UWb. The mana is ok but you can't be solidly three colours.
This is my current game day plan, play Yasooka's deck with card availability limitations. blergh I wish I had just one more Ojutai. I am playing anticipate instead of Jace because I don't have them, but anticipate isn't all that bad, it just finds you things you need when you need it. Bonus I get to play more FNM promos hahaha.
I am very tempted to play 3 duress main just because I know people like to play control around here plus the decks land base feels better if I can do things with 1 untapped mana. Alas mono white humans.
I am unlikely to obtain a Sorin in two days (unless I open it in a draft), I am not sure what the best replacement for it is. Another Ob, maybe Jace unraveller or Narset?
Nice list Narvu. If card availability is a problem I'd recommend ordering what you need online. There's a lot of sites out there, and though the more mainstream sites might charge on the higher side of card values, at least you can trust them over something like ebay where you get your $80.00 flip Jace that turns out to be a proxy. I won't plug any site names, but me personally, I ordered a lot of cards online simply because my local shop does not sell 1 of's, and I've been very satisfied with it.
Anticipate can serve as a Jace substitute until you get the playset, but Jace is an absolute monster so I'd make getting him a priority. It took me several weeks to get the playset for him, and I didn't get my 4th until SOI hit. I'd also recommend a 2nd Kalitas in the SB. He's been really performing for me against the beat down decks, I'd take a second of him over say Flaying Tendrils
While we're on SB discussion, Dark Petition should be a must 1 of in the SB. Reason being, cards like Virulent Plague and Infinite Obliteration go down in value with multiples, so Petition acts as a 2nd copy for those cards, and with spell mastery on it's basically a 2 mana tutor for them.
A couple things to note about the list. First and foremost if anyone interested or currently playing esper dragons has not yet watched Shota at the pro tour, stop what you're doing and go watch him right now. His play was so masterful and inspiring, I simply can't stop playing this deck after seeing him in action. In light of his performance, I've changed my deck to imitate his.
1st I dropped the Evolving Wilds in favor of more dual lands. My current total sources, counting JVP as a 1 of for each, is 19U 19B and 11W. I'm kind of liking this style of play a lot better. There is more potential for lands coming into play tapped, but with proper sequencing there's enough stretch to make sure you hit certain turns with untapped lands. For example I can chose to have a turn 2 Scorn or Grasp, but then have a turn 1 and turn 3 tapped land. I can sacrifice a turn 2 play for a turn 4 untapped land for languish etc... Not only that, but with the total sources so high I can make plays like a turn 2 Grasp or a turn 2 Scorn a lot easier. This change has led me to some other decklist changes, notably my turn 3 spells.
I have completely dropped Anguished Unmaking MD and have switched Painful Truths in favor of Read the Bones for mana reason. I was actually casting Truths for only 2 colors around 30%-40% of the time, so with odds like that Bones is the superior card draw spell, with the scry being very useful.
Also, what has been the biggest surprise for me is Transgress the Mind. I can’t believe how amazing this card is in virtually every matchup. I had previously thought of it as a SB only against ramp, but this card has quite literally won me a lot of test matches. A large part of that is the number of removals available to kill Ojutai, and Transgress really helps with how you play the dragonlord and keeping him safe once he gets on the board.
The final change is the addition of 3 copies of Ultimate Price. I feel like this cards place is determined by the meta. I’m actually trying out a new magic shop this Friday, so we’ll see how the card lines up. If there’s an abundance of Eldrazi, then the card will go, but I really like how it lines up against Sylvan Advocate which seems to be all over the place, and is a really annoying threat once the 6th land hits and it gets out of languish range.
A card I haven’t been able to test is Tragic Arrogance. I’m hoping to test it out next week and see how it does, I am skeptical about the double W casting cost, but it might not be an issue by the time the 5th land shows up.
I managed to fix my mana base (now the same as Shota's) with trading yesterday and the 3rd languish. I'll see what I can do about the dark petition I am pretty annoyed I traded mine away months ago now, seems everyone is after that card at the moment
I have actually been playing the list for a year without bothering to get all the cards. I have been easily able to top 8 local tournaments/game day, I had a bunch of 5-0s into losing in the top 8. Although I did poorly at the most recent one.
My two jace, I opened at prerelease. I have been struggling to get that Ojutai since dragons came out, I even played UB dragons for months because I was so much $$ after that pro tour, but that card just wont go down in price and will be worthless is a couple months.
Kalitas is $30... that's not worth the $$ for a sideboard card. If I am not willing to pay the $18 for Ojutai...the key card in my deck.
Also shipping is typically $20 or something dumb to here end of the earth, that I can't really just order in individual cards.
I get this kind of thing is annoying for fully competitive players so I was kind of dancing around it in other posts. I enjoy playing, trading, collecting and the other things around the game more than I absolutely have to win, winning is nice though.
I agree with Shaheen and think Transgress the Mind is pretty horrible main deck. Costing 2 is really bad. It is ok Turn 2 but does not effect the board and gets progressively worse as the game goes on. CoCo, Avacyn are instants and likely to get cast in response to Transgress the mind if mana is available. Always Watching gets cast on turn 3. Late game if your opponent is not hellbent your opponent is going to be holding removal like Declaration in Stone/Clip Wings and stuff like Negate none of which get hit by Transgress the mind. Sure sideboard it vs ramp and control mirrors. Ramp and control don't seem all that common. Not a fan of main deck discard unless it is a 2 for 1 or hits anything like Thoughtseize did.
Dragonlord Silumgar and Ojutai still gets hit with removal. Jace is even more important with no Dig Through time to get card advantage. If they don't kill Jace you get advantage from it. I actually won two games with Jace ultimate mill since I could not find another dragon something that never happened when Dig Through Time was legal.
Dead Weight can replace Surge of Rightousness in the board. I saw no mono red at my FNM.
Epiphany at the Drownyard is pretty bad, opponent never gives you what you need. If your opponent made the piles and you got to pick whch pile to take like Fact or Fiction it may be worth running.
Have to rely on Jace, Narset and Painful Truths for card advantage.
3 Swamp
3 Island
2 Port Town
3 Prairie Stream
3 Sunken Hollow
4 Choked Estuary
3 Shambling Vent
3 Evolving Wilds
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4 Dragonlord Ojutai
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
4 Silumgar's Scorn
1 Transgress the Mind
2 Ojuati's Command
1 Anticipate
3 Epiphany at the Drownyard
2 Painful Truths
1 Tragic Arrogance
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Grasp of Darkness
2 Foul-Tongue Invocation
2 Anguished Unmaking
1 Negate
1 Dragonlord's Prerogative
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Duress
1 Infinite Obliteration
1 Transgress the Mind
2 Dead Weight
1 Flaying Tendrils
2 Languish
1 Ultimate Price
3 Thing in the Ice
Notable changes:
Thing in the Ice is something I'm still testing. It was decent last time, but I wonder if it's optimal paring it with Dead Weight after sideboarding. More Ultimate Price might be needed but that card does nothing against the eldrazi creatures and that's my biggest strike against it.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
My mana base has worked well, I might make some small changes, I'd prefer to have two havens.
I am having trouble using painful truths, when do I use it? I keep casing it and slaming into collected company and being overwhelmed. With 27 lands ergh, I draw a lot of lands. I miss dig so much :'(. Not having instant speed card draw has me off balance with just playing the deck. Should I be waiting as long as possible before casting painful truths? or cast it when I can (when I there is less pressure on my life total). Ergh it just feels wrong. I am this close to giving up on it and running anticipate, ephiphiny and preogrative just so I can feel comfortable with the flow of the deck.
I might switch from 3 grasp 1 ultimate price to 3 grasp 1 declaration now I am more confident in my ability to get white mana.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Honestly this card feels perfect for the card draw engine. I'm now running it as a 4 of in my deck.
2-1 vs. Eldrazi
0-2 vs. White Weenie
2-0 vs. UW Control
2-0 vs, Eldrazi Ramp
More details on the matches themselves after some R&R.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
2 Jace, vyrn's prodigy
3 Dragonlord, Ojutai
2 Dragonlord silumgar
1 deathbringer regent
plainswalker
1 ob nixis, reignited
sorceries
3 Painful truths
2 Languish
Instant
2 Epiphany at the drownyard
4 Silumgar's scorn
3 Grasp of darkness
1 Ultimate price
4 Foul-tongue invocation
2 Anguished unmaking
2 Void shatter
1 Dragonlord's preogrative
4 Sunken hollow
3 Choked estuary
2 Prairie stream
1 Port town
3 Shambling vent
4 Evolving wilds
1 Haven of the spirit dragon
5 Island
3 Swamp
1 Plains
Local tournament today.
0-2 bant company
1-2 Jund midrange
2-0 Demonic pact esper enchantments
1-1(2) White black eldrazi
2-0 GW megamorph
2-3 drop
Match 1 bant company
Game 1: Stuck on three lands couldn't do anything, painful truths hit no land
Game 2: Opponent had all the answers including Altered ego.
Match 2 Jund mid range
Game 1: Went to plan I had counters and removal for his plays
Game 2: My hand is torn apart by transgress the mind and pick the brain, I draw into painful truths and get moving again.He eventually resolves Chandra but his hand is empty and I take it with Dragonlord silumgar.. he top decks... clip wings :'( I am overwhelmed, dead.
Game 3: My hand is dragon heavy and my lands slow, I transgress his mind. I see dark dwellers, chandra, mindwrack demon,(and sylvan advocate) I take the demon since it can be cast first. he casts read the bones, I counter it with the negate I was saving for chandra. The advocate gets a couple of hits but I just draw more dragons and lands. dark dwellers, into read the bones. My only way out is if my opponent casts the chandra and I steal it with dragonlord and wrath the board. My opponent doesn't walk into the trap traveses the Uvenwald into another advocate... dead.
Match 3 Demonic pact
Game 1: Land go, I get Ojutai down he plays demonic pact. I attack with ojutai, He kill Ojutai with pact and plays starfield i counter it. this allows me to get Ob Nixis down, I tick up. The next turn I get Dragonlord's preogrative that he couldn't counter and I am way ahead. Ob will ulti and Pact will kill him he is forced to use Silumgar's command I counter it he dies to Pact.
Game 2: I mulled to 5 but I draw lots of sideboard cards basically, Kalitas, icefall regent, 2 negates and transgress the mind and he gets beat down by my dragon before he can recover.
Match 4 WB Eldrazi.
Game 1: My opponents hedron crawler was so annoying not letting me use foul-tongue invocation, my hand gets hit with thought-knot seer which I unmake he resolves Ob nix. Which puts pressure onto me to get Ojutai down. But my ultimate price doesn't work on eldrazi displacer and he used it to protect his Ob Nix. now it can ulti, but he kills Ojutai with it. but its too much value for him and I scoop it up.
Game 2: I keep a risky hand, E wilds + island. two counters and two powerful 5 drops. He takes my Ojutai with transgress, seeing my bad hand. I draw the land I need. I get down Ob Nix easily but he Unmakes it. I find a second Ojutai and beat him down before he recovers from flood.
Game 3: My mana starts off bad and thats allows my opponent to infinite obliteration on dragonlord Ojutai. thought-knot ( takes negate), I draw unmaking to take it out but I am forced to tap low and he resolves Sorin. I play Ob nix in reply to try to find an answer. I don't find it. he reveals a land phew, reality smasher.. uh oh!. he attacks it all at Ob, phew. I draw.... Dragonlord silumgar! take sorin shoot smasher gain 8 life... time.. Opponent rebuilds he board, I draw lands.. he doesn't attack for some reason and we just draw.
I concede as he was paired down and still has a chance to top 8.
Match 5 GW metamorph
Game 1: this kid is soo annoying. He builds quite the board, foul-tongue takes out a inspector. I fall to 5 from the beat down before I get Ojutai to block. I draw.. Languish :D. I attack find silumgar's scorn and wrath the board. Opponent still has an active Nissa. he ticks up Nissa finds deathmist raptor.. void shatter it (he is mad about that). I take Nissa with dragonlord silumgar. tick down put a 4/4 down. he silkwraps it. Then snares dragonlord. Another lull in the game he rebuilds a board but I double foul-tougne to clean his board with a dragon in hand gain 8. vent kills nissa. painful truths into the 4th foul tongue. Opponent floods out and Beat him to death with shambling vents.
Game 2: mana is annoying agian. he gets evolutionary leap which is great for him then kills my jace with dromoka's command (still in his deck). Again I hit his death mist with void shatter (he is very mad because he though my prairie stream with a shambling vent). he plays sylvan advocate which I lock down with icefall regent which he plummets, I play 2nd icefall regent keep it locked down. Then I get Ojutai but he kills off both on attack with surge of righteousness and immolating glare. deathmist raptor, haven of the spirit dragon returning icefall instead of Ojutai (probably wrong) tap down the deathmist, Den protector, tries to dromoka command (+1/+1 on den) fight with deathmist, I unmake it he can't use evoultion as he tapped out. He then plummets the icefall that he had returned with another den protector.I get hit for 7 by two unblockable den protectors. I steal nissa with dragonlord silumgar make a 4/4. I get an attack in with dragonlord. He draws always watching that makes his Den protectors unblockable by 4/4 or dragonlord... hitting me down to 1 with the 5/4 unblockable den protector. I reveal Ojutai with nissa. 5 power blocker. I attack silumgar. I have him dead in the air next turn he has to attack to trade with the ojutai. Which he does. I attack with Dragonlord and 4/4 and make a new 4/4 with Nissa to block and play Kalitas. he scoops.
I drop, even though I won. eventhough I was dropping I didn't give him the win because he was sooo annoying blergh kids
blergh went badly mostly :/. I really mis Dig and I still hate painful truths as powerful as it is it just isn't what I want to be doing. Mana is awkward but okay, I still don't like how many tapped lands it makes being able to use counters in a timely manner to be a challenge. I think perhaps I will ignore some of the pro's builds and go on a bit of a brew to get something I actually like instead of what is proven to be good. the deathbringer was a mistake, I wanted an Ugin like trump but I never cast it there was more go wide in my practice games than I saw at the tourney. In goes the icefall (I only own 3 ojutai I have played 2 jace and 3 Ojtuai the whole time but with Dig it wasn't a problem). Also I only could find 3 choked estuary this week no one seems to have them. I didn't get the amount of practice that I'd like to have because I didn't have the deck yet.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Here was the final decklist I went with
4 Choked Estuary
3 Sunken Hollow
4 Prairie Stream
2 Shambling Vent
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
3 Swamp
5 Island
1 Plains
4 Evolving Wilds
Creature(10)
4 Dragonlord Ojutai
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Silumgar's Scorn
2 Grasp of Darkness
3 Foul-Tongue Invocation
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Ojutai's Command
Sorcery(9)
2 Declaration in Stone
4 Painful Truths
3 Languish
Planeswalker(1)
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
3 Thing in the Ice
2 Dead Weight
2 Duress
3 Negate
2 Infinite Obliteration
2 Virulent Plague
1 Dragonlord's Prerogative
2-0 vs. the delirium intro pack. no need to explain further.
1-2 vs. Bant Company
Really great 3 games against Bant Company. Game 1 I was completely mana screwed and I didn't hit any black sources until my 6th land drop, and it came into play tapped. This was with 2 Painful Truths and a Foul-Tongue Invocation in hand. Game 2 I eventually won just grinding opponent down with Ojutai, and countering Archangel Avacyn with Ojutai's Command. Game 3 was a real close one, and I made a big mistake when I went to cast Ojutai, my opponent countered with an Ojutai's Command of his own, then I went to counter that with Silumgar's Scorn except that the dragon was on the stack, not in play or in my hand, so I lost 2 cards on that exchange, while opponent drew a card. From there it was an uphill struggle until a couple Sylvan Advocate slammed in for the win
0-2 vs. W/U Humans
Game 1 I got aggro'ed down and lost to a 6/6 Thalia's Lieutenant. For game 2 I sided in my cards to line up better against aggro, only for my opponent to literally side in all 15 cards and completely change the archetype from aggro to a control deck. I ended up losing to a Dragonlord Ojutai with Always Watching and a Gideon Emblem all in play, so it was a 7/6 flier that was always hexproof.
1-2 vs. R/B Eldrazi Aggro
Game 1 I got aggro'ed down pretty quick. After side I lined up better, but it turned into some grindy matches. I won the second game by just grinding opponent down, and lost the 3rd game after making some suboptimal mistakes that were mostly made from tiredness.
I really liked how the deck lined up against Bant Company. If I didn't make that big mistake, and didn't get a bad draw for mana in game 1, that round could have easily gone my way. I made a few mistakes, but the Esper dragons deck can win that late game value in this matchup. The only thing I don't like is how Languish lines up with a Sylvan Advocate once the 6th land hits. Other than that, with Languish, Ojutai's Command, Jace's flashback, and my dragonlords, I'm getting 2 or 3 to 1 on a lot of exchanges and just winning that long game with value.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy was a monster. This is an essential card that must be a 4 of. Any thoughts of cutting him or skipping him need to be put away.
Declaration in Stone however may need to be cut. While I originally fell in love with this card, in most any matchup the opponent will get to cash in the clue. It's a trade off to gain some tempo, but lose value, and as of now I'm not convinced the trade off is worth it.
Languish was huge as well. I'm glad I made some tweaks to get it at a 3 of in MD. Got a ton of value with this card, going on average 3 for 1. I'm considering siding in Planar Outburst against any deck that uses Sylvan Advocate, but other than that I'm really happy with the performance.
Thing in the Ice was awesome as well. I didn't get to flip it in any matchup, but the card filled the role very nicely as a 2 drop to slow down the tempo and beats from some of these faster decks. Typically it's getting removed or bounced before it transforms, which I'm ok with given the amount of time and life it can buy me. My strategy with it has been to play normally, but if opponent has 3+ creatures on board then some suboptimal plays would be ok to get it transformed (like flashing back a silumgar's scorn with no target, just to flip it and bounce 3+ creatures).
3 Swamp
3 Island
2 Port Town
3 Prairie Stream
3 Sunken Hollow
4 Choked Estuary
3 Shambling Vent
3 Evolving Wilds
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4 Dragonlord Ojutai
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
4 Silumgar's Scorn
1 Transgress the Mind
2 Ojuati's Command
1 Anticipate
3 Epiphany at the Drownyard
2 Painful Truths
1 Tragic Arrogance
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Grasp of Darkness
2 Foul-Tongue Invocation
2 Anguished Unmaking
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Dragonlord's Prerogative
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Duress
1 Infinite Obliteration
1 Transgress the Mind
2 Dead Weight
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Languish
4 Thing in the Ice
Changed the Ultimate Price to the 4th Thing in the Ice in the last second. Didn't work out as I hoped it would and I'm starting to think this whole "last minute changes" shtick isn't exactly paying off. On to the matches:
Round 1 vs. UR Eldrazi (or was it mono red?) 2-1
Game one was a steal since he drew three mana dorks in the and nothing to ramp into. Game two there was a lot of back and forth but I was eventually low enough on life for him to Blaze me out of the game. He was prepared for Thing in the Ice after sideboarding since that's how I beat him last time. Third game was decided by a topdecked Tragic Arrogance which cleared the board enough to make sure Foul-Tongue Invocation hit his only blocker and allow me to swing for lethal with Dragonlord Ojutai. This was the game in which I previously played Epiphany at the Drownyard for 7U and hit eight (8) lands!
I have no trouble recommending Tragic Arrogance after this match to anyone who plans to win with Ojutai. It can deal with some of the stuff other wrath effects can't (Reality Smasher) while still leaving us with Ojutai in play. I don't think I would want to play more then one though.
Round 2 vs. White Humans 0-2
This match was a downer. I lost the first game due to misassignment of blockers and the second one to a mull to 5 on the play. I have played several post sideboard games after the match and the games were tight at worst. Cutting the Ultimate Price was really felt in these games. The 4th Thing was excessive and didn't do much. After this match I'm thinking about cutting them down to three, possibly even two.
Round 3 vs. UW Control 2-0
This was just a brutal game. Without Dig Through Time he could never find the cards to deal with Ojutai while all of my cards trumped his. To be honest, his list didn't pack that many Jaces either so the rotation was doubly felt here. The second game was similar, with him being left with a smidgen of cards in hand and me with dragons which flew over his ground army of tokens. Lilvala made an appearance from his deck, but it was easily trumped by Dragonlord Silumgar.
Round 4 vs Eldrazi Ramp 2-0
Another easy match. Basically countered all of his ramp spells and discarded or killed his big drops while Ojutai did his thing. I don't know if it's due to the deck's design or to his bad luck but don't remember this matchup ever being this easy.
Overall I'm quite happy with this list and would recommend it to people interested in the deck. Epiphany at the Drownyard was O.K. if not very good. One thing I've learned during this tournament is that I shouldn't shy from playing it to see an odd number of cards. You still get to divide the cards as you see fit and I'm sure that with practice I will get even better at this. The mana base was fine. I'm not sure about the 2nd Haven of the Spirit Dragon but I'm unsure about cutting it. Having the effect seems important enough to me to want two but it's really bad to see more then one of these against fast aggro decks in the early game. You can still play it but you need a sound plan for those decks after sideboarding.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Kyle Mathis
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/400458#online
Justin wallen
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/399778#online
Again completely different decks and mana bases. Justins deck is UWb rather than UBw that most lists are.
I went back too look at the original list, from pro tour dragons, just to reset and look at the core of the deck again, It really was a UB control deck with dragons back then. The mana had a lot of tap lands.
The brewing continues.
I like duress in that you could prevent them dealing with Ojutai and it deals with walkers but there are two decks with very high creature counts right now and it will miss.. a lot. The problem is that a lot of the time we aren't interacting until turn 3 since mana is tricky for the BB for grasp or UU for scorn, just having something like duress to know what I am up against and how to sequence the mana would be useful. If, in my folly perhaps, I cut painful truths can I then play more Anguished unmaking? basically playing it like hero's downfall. lots of random ideas no substance yet.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
I also got beat pretty bad the other day by an Esper Pact deck. This list was spot on, and I just got 0-2'ed easily.
My current list is an almost near identical copy to Kyle Mathis, except I'm not MD Transgress The Mind in favor of 2 more copies of Grasp of Darkness and I have 1 copy of Haven for lands and 2 Vents.
For brewing I'm thinking of trying 3 copies of Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim on the SB to replace Arashin Cleric and use it for the W/x Humans and CoCo decks. The body seems right for the meta. Any thoughts?
The matchup is as hard as it used to be, but I think we still have the better card advantage engines. Dragonlord Silumgar is a good solution to the walkers once they hit the board. Normally I try to tax the walkers out of loyalty rather then have them stick around if I can't back up Silumgar with coutners and/or disruption. Declaration in stone is quite good against some of the threats they play (Hangback Walker, Secure the Wastes and even Gideon, Ally of Zendikar). Wrath effects in general seem quite bad against these decks since more often then not they aren't cost effective. They are horrendous at delaying Westvale Abbey, which can be a real issue if you aren't prepared for fighting that fight).
Epiphany at the Drownyard in particular was sound in this matchup since it allowed me to go through more cards then any other draw spell did. It also made flipping Jace laughably easy which is quite important still. The reasoning here is that you can flashback anything they bin with Jace and you can recur Ojutai with Haven of the Spirit Dragon. Most importantly, the card works at instant speed which allows me to present counters during their turn (Negate is still a workhorse in this matchup).
Ayli does't do what you need it to do against the decks you've mentioned, though I might be biased on the basis that this deck can't use the "whole animal". If you want blockers Thing in the Ice is probably better. It can force these decks to overextend into mass removal like Languish and/or Flaying Tendrils.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
While I do love Thing in the Ice I was considering Ayli because the body lines up nicely for early blocks against Dragon Hunter and the like, she can trade with anything in the midgame, so if that means keeping a giant 6/6 Thalia's Lieutenant in check I am ok with that, and she could possibly have some lifegain towards end game. Just spitballing.
I've been really impressed lately with the power that a Ob Nixilis Reignited and Sorin, Grim Nemesis combo can bring when they're both in play. I've actually been thinking of dropping dragons, and going a more general Esper Control deck where the Dragonlords get replaced with 3 Sorins and 3 Obs. Replace Foul Tongue with To The Slaughter and replace the scorns with Clash of Wills, Void Shatter, and possibly even Horribly Awry. You could even replace Painful Truths with some combination of epiphany and prerogative, and have your sweepers be the only sorcery speed spells, and just play a more classic control style of play of draw and pass your turn and leave your mana up. It would be a much slower style of play, and one of the reasons I prefer the dragon control decks is because the dragons not only provide card advantage, but they are a hard clock for the opponent as well, whereas the walkers, though a much more solid form of inevitability, are a much slower clock. Not sure.
You are definitely the control deck in this matchup. Their goal is to use discard to make sure their midgame haymakers like Gideon and misc others finish you before you recuperate. They also compliment this with enough removal spells for Dragonlord Ojutai to choke a puppy. If you can maintain some semblance of parity while keeping their threats off the table you should be able to get your card advantage engines online, regardless of what cards you actually use. Duress and Negate are golden after sideboarding, but Transgress the Mind also hits their relevant cards which Duress can't, such as Thought-Knot Seer or Archangel Avacyn. While Dragonlord's Prerogative is good in any game where you expect to face a lot of hand disruption I don't think it replaces Epiphany at the Drownyard. The problem here is that the card come online pretty late in the game and most if not all of the discard they play will have a chance to hit it before you get to the mana to cast it. Epiphany doesn't adhere to any of those constraints. You can play at practically any point and still be up by at least a card.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Hopefully we can get the decklist soon!
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
4 Dragonlord Ojutai
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3 Languish
2 Painful Truths
1 Read the Bones
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Clash of Wills
3 Foul-Tongue Invocation
2 Grasp of Darkness
4 Silumgar's Scorn
3 Ultimate Price
4 Choked Estuary
4 Island
2 Port Town
3 Prairie Stream
2 Shambling Vent
1 Submerged Boneyard
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Swamp
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Dark Petition
2 Dead Weight
1 Dragonlord's Prerogative
3 Duress
1 Infinite Obliteration
2 Negate
1 Virulent Plague
from: http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/ptsoi/top-8-decklists-2016-04-23
RBUGrixis ControlUBR
GUSimic MerfolkUG
WUUW ControlUW
RBUGrixis ControlUBR
BUUB MillUB
Colorless Eldrazi Tron
WRBurnRW
GUSimic MerfolkUG
UMono U TurnsU
WGGenesis Wave EnchantressGW
Tragic Arrogance does as an approximate Crux of Fate impersonation as we can hope to get, it might be even better in some corner cases. Apart from being a mass removal spell which doesn't kill Dragonlord Ojutai another thing this card has going for it is that it, unlike Planar Outburst goes around Archangel Avacyn, it is one of the very few wrath effects we have access to that can kill a 4/5 Sylvan Advocate and it can destroy non-creature permanents, most notably planeswalkers and artifacts.
One argument in favor of Tragic Arrogance is the fact that both Andrea and Rubin sided the card in against each other. The card is actively good against both decks featured in the finals of the PT. If the card does work against both Bant Company and GW tokens, isn't this good enough of a reason that we adopt the card ourselves, especially since we can play it with way more upside then either of these decks? Picture a scenario in which we cast Tragic Arrogance with Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet in play - it's as busted as it sounds.
The manabase can accommodate it, the CoCo mana base certainly did and they played fewer lands. If it can't it most certainly should be remade to be able to.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
What I want to figure out now is why use the dragonlords as the win condition? What do they offer that the walkers don't? The obvious answer is the dragons offer a much quicker clock than the walkers, but i think figuring out exactly the advantages of using dragons over the walkers is paramount for refining the deck to be optimal. The answer may simply be that dragons is going to be suboptimal compared to the walker version of the deck, I don't know. I'm running 1 copy of Sorin and 1 copy of Ob in my MD now, and to be honest, I'm much happier to draw either of them than I am drawing a dragon. Just some thoughts for moving forward.
An interesting list from Shota. I'm still trying to figure out the 1 copy of Read the Bones and 2 copies Painful Truths split. I guess maybe for some scrying? I'm also really liking Kalitas in the SB. He has great synergy with control decks, his body is perfect in a world of 2/3's and 3/3's, and the lifelink has potential to be game changing in the humans / CoCo matchups, so I'm really liking him against those decks.
I think you may be right about this. The dream is a turn 4 languish to clear the way for a turn 5 Dragonlord Ojutai, however more often than not I seem to have languish in hand with Ojutai on the board. Also, potential to destroy the 2nd copy of Always Watching that somehow seems to get out there is nice too. I plan on testing out tragic as MD sweeper. Maybe 2 copies of tragic and a single copy of languish.
I have switched to something approximating Shota's deck, it does feel somewhat smoother. I was complaining about how much I hate Painful truths and I still do.. playing 4 is just not something I want to do ever again. I am worried about walkers without access to unmaking. But three of the major walkers kill themselves after you steal them with Dragonlord silumgar. Now that the only main deck white is Ojutai I am also happier with the mana base that I don't need to use E wilds. The high chance for not hitting white is why he has read the bones, I like the card more than painful truths anyway.
If you are going to play tragic arrogance, a double white card, I think you should cut the black down to just painful truths and dragonlord silumgar and play UWb. The mana is ok but you can't be solidly three colours.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
Creatures
3 Dragonlord Ojutai
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
1 Icefall regent
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Sorceries
3 Languish
2 Painful Truths
1 Read the Bones
2 Transgress the Mind
Instants
2 Clash of Wills
2 Anticipate
3 Foul-Tongue Invocation
2 Grasp of Darkness
4 Silumgar's Scorn
3 Ultimate Price
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Choked Estuary
4 Island
2 Port Town
3 Prairie Stream
2 Shambling Vent
2 Submerged Boneyard
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Swamp
1 Icefall regent
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Anguished Unmaking
1 Flaying tendrils
2 Dead Weight
1 Dragonlord's Prerogative
3 Duress
1 Infinite Obliteration
2 Negate
1 Virulent Plague
This is my current game day plan, play Yasooka's deck with card availability limitations. blergh I wish I had just one more Ojutai. I am playing anticipate instead of Jace because I don't have them, but anticipate isn't all that bad, it just finds you things you need when you need it. Bonus I get to play more FNM promos hahaha.
Having only 3 choked estuary and just not being able to find anyone to trade me one has been a pain :/. I am not sure about the second submerged boneyard or whether having 1 haven of the spirit dragon will be better.
I am very tempted to play 3 duress main just because I know people like to play control around here plus the decks land base feels better if I can do things with 1 untapped mana. Alas mono white humans.
I am unlikely to obtain a Sorin in two days (unless I open it in a draft), I am not sure what the best replacement for it is. Another Ob, maybe Jace unraveller or Narset?
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Anticipate can serve as a Jace substitute until you get the playset, but Jace is an absolute monster so I'd make getting him a priority. It took me several weeks to get the playset for him, and I didn't get my 4th until SOI hit. I'd also recommend a 2nd Kalitas in the SB. He's been really performing for me against the beat down decks, I'd take a second of him over say Flaying Tendrils
While we're on SB discussion, Dark Petition should be a must 1 of in the SB. Reason being, cards like Virulent Plague and Infinite Obliteration go down in value with multiples, so Petition acts as a 2nd copy for those cards, and with spell mastery on it's basically a 2 mana tutor for them.
Here's my current list for FNM:
4 Dragonlord Ojutai
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Instant (13)
2 Grasp of Darkness
3 Ultimate Price
4 Silumgar's Scorn
1 Void Shatter
3 Foul-Tongue Invocation
Sorcery (9)
2 Transgress the Mind
3 Read the Bones
1 Painful Truths
3 Languish
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Lands(27)
4 Choked Estuary
4 Sunken Hollow
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Prairie Stream
2 Port Town
2 Shambling Vent
4 Island
4 Swamp
1 Submerged Boneyard
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Anguished Unmaking
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Dark Petition
2 Dead Weight
2 Duress
1 Dragonlord's Prerogative
1 Virulent Plague
1 Infinite Obliteration
3 Negate
A couple things to note about the list. First and foremost if anyone interested or currently playing esper dragons has not yet watched Shota at the pro tour, stop what you're doing and go watch him right now. His play was so masterful and inspiring, I simply can't stop playing this deck after seeing him in action. In light of his performance, I've changed my deck to imitate his.
1st I dropped the Evolving Wilds in favor of more dual lands. My current total sources, counting JVP as a 1 of for each, is 19U 19B and 11W. I'm kind of liking this style of play a lot better. There is more potential for lands coming into play tapped, but with proper sequencing there's enough stretch to make sure you hit certain turns with untapped lands. For example I can chose to have a turn 2 Scorn or Grasp, but then have a turn 1 and turn 3 tapped land. I can sacrifice a turn 2 play for a turn 4 untapped land for languish etc... Not only that, but with the total sources so high I can make plays like a turn 2 Grasp or a turn 2 Scorn a lot easier. This change has led me to some other decklist changes, notably my turn 3 spells.
I have completely dropped Anguished Unmaking MD and have switched Painful Truths in favor of Read the Bones for mana reason. I was actually casting Truths for only 2 colors around 30%-40% of the time, so with odds like that Bones is the superior card draw spell, with the scry being very useful.
Also, what has been the biggest surprise for me is Transgress the Mind. I can’t believe how amazing this card is in virtually every matchup. I had previously thought of it as a SB only against ramp, but this card has quite literally won me a lot of test matches. A large part of that is the number of removals available to kill Ojutai, and Transgress really helps with how you play the dragonlord and keeping him safe once he gets on the board.
The final change is the addition of 3 copies of Ultimate Price. I feel like this cards place is determined by the meta. I’m actually trying out a new magic shop this Friday, so we’ll see how the card lines up. If there’s an abundance of Eldrazi, then the card will go, but I really like how it lines up against Sylvan Advocate which seems to be all over the place, and is a really annoying threat once the 6th land hits and it gets out of languish range.
A card I haven’t been able to test is Tragic Arrogance. I’m hoping to test it out next week and see how it does, I am skeptical about the double W casting cost, but it might not be an issue by the time the 5th land shows up.
If anyone is interested in some different esper dragons list check out the link below
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck_search_result.asp?deck_name=Esper Dragons&Format=Type II&latestset=SOI
I have actually been playing the list for a year without bothering to get all the cards. I have been easily able to top 8 local tournaments/game day, I had a bunch of 5-0s into losing in the top 8. Although I did poorly at the most recent one.
My two jace, I opened at prerelease. I have been struggling to get that Ojutai since dragons came out, I even played UB dragons for months because I was so much $$ after that pro tour, but that card just wont go down in price and will be worthless is a couple months.
Kalitas is $30... that's not worth the $$ for a sideboard card. If I am not willing to pay the $18 for Ojutai...the key card in my deck.
Also shipping is typically $20 or something dumb to here end of the earth, that I can't really just order in individual cards.
I get this kind of thing is annoying for fully competitive players so I was kind of dancing around it in other posts. I enjoy playing, trading, collecting and the other things around the game more than I absolutely have to win, winning is nice though.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Working on it again
so I'm guessing painful truths is our best card draw spell right now?