7 sources of C is a bit low to play a Smasher by turn 5. To play Eldrazi, I'd prefer to go enemy colors for the painlands. W/B/C, W/C or B/C Eldrazi are all decks that have 5-0 MTGO leagues and whose mana base should be easier (read, less painful) to build than B/R Eldrazi.
I'm thinking Roast should be okay. Not the best counter really but it's the best of what we have. Sidisi is not bad if you're playing Hangarback but it might just be too slow.
How about the idea of playing it in this deck? Is it a possibility? I'm thinking of playing 2 caves of Koilos, 2 Battlefield Forge, 2 Evolving wilds and 1 wastes to support a playset of Smashers.
Having a really hard time playing any variation of B/R either mid range or control.
Dying A LOT to Reality Smasher and man lands, one problem I'm seeing is that in a match where my opponent has man lands we grind each other out, but when we are in a sort of top decking mode he has a manland to put his mana into and I don't. Flat out losing a lot of games just to that.
Also Reality Smasher is a problem, you can generally never kill it at instant speed, and when you kill it at sorcery speed you are always doing that classic 2 for 1 on yourself. Feels very bad.
have you considered Crumble to Dust in your sideboard? Not only does it kill man lands and Westvale Abbey, it also punishes people who are trying to really stretch their mana bases (and currently, it feels like 3 colors is really pushing it).
Having a really hard time playing any variation of B/R either mid range or control.
Dying A LOT to Reality Smasher and man lands, one problem I'm seeing is that in a match where my opponent has man lands we grind each other out, but when we are in a sort of top decking mode he has a manland to put his mana into and I don't. Flat out losing a lot of games just to that.
Also Reality Smasher is a problem, you can generally never kill it at instant speed, and when you kill it at sorcery speed you are always doing that classic 2 for 1 on yourself. Feels very bad.
I brought this up a couple of days ago (reality smasher). I guess we just have to accept that t the moment B/R does not have a clean answer for Reality Smasher especially if it comes out on turn 4. Roast is probably the best answer for it.
Agreed. The card is pretty OP for what it does. Reminds me alot of Siege Rhino. The trample is the worst. Haste...can deal with...discard to kill, fine. But Trample......IMO they should have made Thoughtknot a 4/3 and Smasher a 5/4.
Maybe they reprint Doomblade in EM. But yeah, I will reiterate Roast is the current answer, or foul tongue if alone....feels super sweet to know they have the smasher and have a fout tongue waiting. Also, if you're playing it correctly. You should have at least 2 transgress either main or SB. pluck before they hurt you. The decks worst matchup is IMO B/W control but the biggest blindspot is smasher. It's funny though, Siege Rhino also dodges the same removal smasher does: grasp wont kill it and ult price cant hit it..seams the anti rhino card is the anti smasher card.
Other than smasher, our deck should be able to beat a rites deck by just picking off their creatures then unloading with our haymakers.
Oh I've had no problem with those decks, I played a bunch of games with my friend who plays those aristocrat style decks all the time and I was just crushing, Kalitas is generally just game 100% of the time, and all of the removal it's just a hard match for them IMO, I am starting to hate black/white though simply because of shambling vent, that card is a pain.
Seasons Past is what I have problems with too. Make sure to sideboard properly against smasher. If you are really having trouble, get your IO out asap (increase it to 3 sideboard)
Had a bit of a rough go last night, unfortunately it was all about land again both flooding and stumbling, variance sux. I did swap out my Olivia's for Sin Prodder and I must say it was a little impressive when I did get it going. I don't think it's a whip slam T3 play unless you have a grip of lands in hand.
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Current Decks Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BWGUB Sultai Constrictor BUG Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG Modern : GB Golgari Elves BGGR Atarka Goblins RG Pauper : W Heroic WGB Delve BG
Had a bit of a rough go last night, unfortunately it was all about land again both flooding and stumbling, variance sux. I did swap out my Olivia's for Sin Prodder and I must say it was a little impressive when I did get it going. I don't think it's a whip slam T3 play unless you have a grip of lands in hand. Mid to late game it really starts to shine as it allows you filter past unwanted lands pulls and with most of our spells costing 3 or more, regular Lightning Bolt's hurt.
I've tried sin prodder but it seemed lackluster. It dies to pretty much all removal but maybe a sideboard option for decks with little to no removal for extra card value.
TBH the argument of "It dies to X spell" is a really dumb one, everything dies to something. The true question should be how does it impact the game from cast to death. If allowed to live and untap with it in play the card advantage becomes somewhat insurmountable. But alas, I have decided to go to the dark side and picked up a set of Flip Jace's and am going to try Grixis control for the time being.
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Current Decks Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BWGUB Sultai Constrictor BUG Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG Modern : GB Golgari Elves BGGR Atarka Goblins RG Pauper : W Heroic WGB Delve BG
Yeah, I've been playing mine too and surprisingly, am having problems with w/r humans. It's crazy because my deck never had any problems with mono white humans but bushwacker it so good after an always watching puts the team out of koz return territory.
In response, I've been running one main deck koz return and 3 in the SB. W/B//esper still our worst matchup. Ramp can usually be beat games 2 and three by loading up on discard, inf obl, and faster creatures. We fly right over tokens.
So yeah, mono white humans no prob. Believe it or not, inf for bushwacker might win you the game. That's the only way that deck can win is chunk damage.
R1 vs U/w Spirits 1-2
They bring in lots of counter magic for G2 and G3
R2 vs U/w Spirits 1-2
I just lost to this deck and I have to play it again??
Same results as R1
R3 vs R/b Vampires 2-0
This poor guy is just terrible. He does nothing until t4 and then casts Stensia Masquerade! Then follows it up with call the bloodline.
Not even a contest here
R4 vs no one. The guy dropped.
R5 vs G/w Tokens 0-2
I get run over even with Virulent Plague on the table.
Not a good showing at all for R&B Dragons. Though I am not sure if it is the deck or me. First off I am just not great at this game. And second I never play control. Always aggro.
But I did like the deck and found it very fun. There are lots of high value cards here.
The deck feels more like a draw - go since it runs so many instant spells. 16 in my main deck. And I never felt like I was out of answers. Kolaghan's Command and Goblin Dark-dwellers are extremely good in this deck.
I am not sure if it needs a draw spell like Read the bones. It does not make sense to me to cut kill spells to add a draw spell to find kill spells.
R1 vs U/w Spirits 1-2
They bring in lots of counter magic for G2 and G3
R2 vs U/w Spirits 1-2
I just lost to this deck and I have to play it again??
Same results as R1
R3 vs R/b Vampires 2-0
This poor guy is just terrible. He does nothing until t4 and then casts Stensia Masquerade! Then follows it up with call the bloodline.
Not even a contest here
R4 vs no one. The guy dropped.
R5 vs G/w Tokens 0-2
I get run over even with Virulent Plague on the table.
Not a good showing at all for R&B Dragons. Though I am not sure if it is the deck or me. First off I am just not great at this game. And second I never play control. Always aggro.
But I did like the deck and found it very fun. There are lots of high value cards here.
The deck feels more like a draw - go since it runs so many instant spells. 16 in my main deck. And I never felt like I was out of answers. Kolaghan's Command and Goblin Dark-dwellers are extremely good in this deck.
I am not sure if it needs a draw spell like Read the bones. It does not make sense to me to cut kill spells to add a draw spell to find kill spells. Nephalia Acadamy concerns me. If people start playing this commonly, it will wreck cards like duress and Transgress the mInd. If that turns out to be the case, the disruption can be replaced with Murder.
Rough. How did your mana work out for you? 24 lands with 14 cards with CMC four or greater seems a bit low to me. Did you have any trouble casting your creatures on time?
The G/W Tokens matchup is definitely tough. I think this is one of the matchups where we need to be the beatdown. I haven't had too many chances to play against the deck, but so far the games where I feel like I have the best chance of winning are the ones where I try to maneuver myself into a position where I can aggro them out with fliers. Drawing too much removal feels bad against them, since a lot of it doesn't line up well against their cards and even Ruinous Path is pretty mediocre if you don't already have a board presence when you cast it. That, and Westvale Abbey plus their incremental advantages from planeswalker tokens gives them a big advantage if you let the game go too long.
The need this deck has to try to be the beatdown in certain matchups is why I like having a few more low-cost threats in place of a few of the removal spells. Even with cards like Chandra and Dragonlord, Black/Red doesn't seem like it has the tools to reliably establish inevitability over some of the popular decks of the format. I think moving toward a more value-based midrange style with the option of being more aggressive is a better approach for these colours in the current meta, especially since jamming one-for-one removal spells is an easy strategy to outpace with cards like CoCo running around everywhere. Of course, low cost threats are hard to come by these days if you aren't green or white...I've been playing with different mixes of hangarback, sin prodder, and Abbot of Keral keep, which have been fine but not great. Sin prodder is easily worse than either of the other two, though having menace is very relevant a lot of the time.
On the card draw issue, I think it's definitely worth having at least a couple of Read the bones or something in the maindeck (I'm currently running two in the main and one in the side.) It helps you keep up with the card advantage generated by other decks and can dig for threats when you need ways to close out the game. For another thing, it gives you more proactive spells that you can recast with Dark Dwellers when your opponent has no creatures that you can or want to kill.
Also, if Nephaila Academy does see play (and I'm not sure the existence of Duress is enough to warrant it), it's worth noting that it doesn't do anything against Transgress the Mind, since Transgress causes the card to be exiled rather than discarded.
The mana was not too bad. As far as casting on time, I did come up short a couple of times. But it was marginal. More than anything, the multiple tap lands slowed me down. 2x Cinder Barrens could probably be Haven of the Spirit Dragon.
To increase our beat down potential, Pitiless Horde and Forerunner of Slaughter work very well. These cards have been in several of my other decks and proved themselves.
@ kpal I think that Read the Bones is still going to be the better draw card until it rotates. The Scry 2 is more relevant than instant speed and BB isn't the easiest early game to attain on curve.
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Current Decks Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BWGUB Sultai Constrictor BUG Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG Modern : GB Golgari Elves BGGR Atarka Goblins RG Pauper : W Heroic WGB Delve BG
Hi folks. I've been running a Rakdos aggro shell since SOI and I want to transition to a more midrange/control kind of deck in preparation for Game Day. I'm seeing a lot of your decks and they're kind of like in the direction that I'm headed in and I want your valuable feedback on how I can improve this better. Right now, it can't beat Bant Humans and Bant Coco.
Right now, it can keep up with Bant Humans, but not exactly beat them. Hand disruption is crucial and creature control is too, but I kinda want to make a solid shell of sorts. Any help is appreciated.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Dying A LOT to Reality Smasher and man lands, one problem I'm seeing is that in a match where my opponent has man lands we grind each other out, but when we are in a sort of top decking mode he has a manland to put his mana into and I don't. Flat out losing a lot of games just to that.
Also Reality Smasher is a problem, you can generally never kill it at instant speed, and when you kill it at sorcery speed you are always doing that classic 2 for 1 on yourself. Feels very bad.
have you considered Crumble to Dust in your sideboard? Not only does it kill man lands and Westvale Abbey, it also punishes people who are trying to really stretch their mana bases (and currently, it feels like 3 colors is really pushing it).
Current Decks
Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BW GUB Sultai Constrictor BUG
Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG
Modern : GB Golgari Elves BG GR Atarka Goblins RG
Pauper : W Heroic W GB Delve BG
Maybe they reprint Doomblade in EM. But yeah, I will reiterate Roast is the current answer, or foul tongue if alone....feels super sweet to know they have the smasher and have a fout tongue waiting. Also, if you're playing it correctly. You should have at least 2 transgress either main or SB. pluck before they hurt you. The decks worst matchup is IMO B/W control but the biggest blindspot is smasher. It's funny though, Siege Rhino also dodges the same removal smasher does: grasp wont kill it and ult price cant hit it..seams the anti rhino card is the anti smasher card.
Other than smasher, our deck should be able to beat a rites deck by just picking off their creatures then unloading with our haymakers.
Standard
UR Control
Modern
Merfolk
Burn
Avacyn did nothing wrong!
Purify Innistrad!
#Purge
Current Decks
Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BW GUB Sultai Constrictor BUG
Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG
Modern : GB Golgari Elves BG GR Atarka Goblins RG
Pauper : W Heroic W GB Delve BG
Current Decks
Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BW GUB Sultai Constrictor BUG
Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG
Modern : GB Golgari Elves BG GR Atarka Goblins RG
Pauper : W Heroic W GB Delve BG
Current Decks
Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BW GUB Sultai Constrictor BUG
Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG
Modern : GB Golgari Elves BG GR Atarka Goblins RG
Pauper : W Heroic W GB Delve BG
This is the configuration that I am testing:
4 duress
4 draconic roar
4 grasp of darkness
4 ultimate price
4 kolaghan's command
2 ruinous path
2 languish
4 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Goblin Dark-dwellers
4 Dragonlord Kolaghan
Lands 24
4 cinder barrens
4 smoldering marsh
4 foreboding ruins
6 mountain
6 swamp
C Long Live Eldrazi C
In response, I've been running one main deck koz return and 3 in the SB. W/B//esper still our worst matchup. Ramp can usually be beat games 2 and three by loading up on discard, inf obl, and faster creatures. We fly right over tokens.
So yeah, mono white humans no prob. Believe it or not, inf for bushwacker might win you the game. That's the only way that deck can win is chunk damage.
R1 vs U/w Spirits 1-2
They bring in lots of counter magic for G2 and G3
R2 vs U/w Spirits 1-2
I just lost to this deck and I have to play it again??
Same results as R1
R3 vs R/b Vampires 2-0
This poor guy is just terrible. He does nothing until t4 and then casts Stensia Masquerade! Then follows it up with call the bloodline.
Not even a contest here
R4 vs no one. The guy dropped.
R5 vs G/w Tokens 0-2
I get run over even with Virulent Plague on the table.
Not a good showing at all for R&B Dragons. Though I am not sure if it is the deck or me. First off I am just not great at this game. And second I never play control. Always aggro.
But I did like the deck and found it very fun. There are lots of high value cards here.
The deck feels more like a draw - go since it runs so many instant spells. 16 in my main deck. And I never felt like I was out of answers.
Kolaghan's Command and Goblin Dark-dwellers are extremely good in this deck.
I am not sure if it needs a draw spell like Read the bones. It does not make sense to me to cut kill spells to add a draw spell to find kill spells.
4 duress
4 draconic roar
4 grasp of darkness
4 ultimate price
4 kolaghan's command
2 ruinous path
2 languish
4 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Goblin Dark-dwellers
4 Dragonlord Kolaghan
Lands 24
4 cinder barrens
4 smoldering marsh
4 foreboding ruins
6 mountain
6 swamp
4 transgress the mind
3 virulent plague
2 ruinous path
2 Pitiless Horde
2 Remorseless Punishment
2 Infinite Obliteration
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Rough. How did your mana work out for you? 24 lands with 14 cards with CMC four or greater seems a bit low to me. Did you have any trouble casting your creatures on time?
The G/W Tokens matchup is definitely tough. I think this is one of the matchups where we need to be the beatdown. I haven't had too many chances to play against the deck, but so far the games where I feel like I have the best chance of winning are the ones where I try to maneuver myself into a position where I can aggro them out with fliers. Drawing too much removal feels bad against them, since a lot of it doesn't line up well against their cards and even Ruinous Path is pretty mediocre if you don't already have a board presence when you cast it. That, and Westvale Abbey plus their incremental advantages from planeswalker tokens gives them a big advantage if you let the game go too long.
The need this deck has to try to be the beatdown in certain matchups is why I like having a few more low-cost threats in place of a few of the removal spells. Even with cards like Chandra and Dragonlord, Black/Red doesn't seem like it has the tools to reliably establish inevitability over some of the popular decks of the format. I think moving toward a more value-based midrange style with the option of being more aggressive is a better approach for these colours in the current meta, especially since jamming one-for-one removal spells is an easy strategy to outpace with cards like CoCo running around everywhere. Of course, low cost threats are hard to come by these days if you aren't green or white...I've been playing with different mixes of hangarback, sin prodder, and Abbot of Keral keep, which have been fine but not great. Sin prodder is easily worse than either of the other two, though having menace is very relevant a lot of the time.
On the card draw issue, I think it's definitely worth having at least a couple of Read the bones or something in the maindeck (I'm currently running two in the main and one in the side.) It helps you keep up with the card advantage generated by other decks and can dig for threats when you need ways to close out the game. For another thing, it gives you more proactive spells that you can recast with Dark Dwellers when your opponent has no creatures that you can or want to kill.
Also, if Nephaila Academy does see play (and I'm not sure the existence of Duress is enough to warrant it), it's worth noting that it doesn't do anything against Transgress the Mind, since Transgress causes the card to be exiled rather than discarded.
The mana was not too bad. As far as casting on time, I did come up short a couple of times. But it was marginal. More than anything, the multiple tap lands slowed me down. 2x Cinder Barrens could probably be Haven of the Spirit Dragon.
To increase our beat down potential, Pitiless Horde and Forerunner of Slaughter work very well. These cards have been in several of my other decks and proved themselves.
When EMN releases, Succumb to Temptation could be a great draw card for the deck
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Current Decks
Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BW GUB Sultai Constrictor BUG
Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG
Modern : GB Golgari Elves BG GR Atarka Goblins RG
Pauper : W Heroic W GB Delve BG
3x Alms of the Vein
2x Avacyn's Judgement
2x Collective Brutality
3x Nahiri's Wrath
1x Ruinous Path
Instant (8)
3x Fiery Temper
1x Anguished Unmaking
4x Grasp of Darkness
2x Abundant Maw
2x Accursed Witch
3x Cryptbreaker
3x Hanweir Garrison
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3x Olivia's Dragoon
1x Voladaren Pariah
Land (23)
4x Cinder Barens
2x Forsaken Sanctuary
2x Hanweir Battlements
5x Mountain
8x Swamp
2x Westvale Abby
1x Chandra, Flamecaller
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
The idea of this deck is to steal as much life as i can, as well as just straight burn spell them. Madness is a real core of this deck
This is my current list:
2x Bloodhall Priest
3x Distended Mindbender
4x Furyblade Vampire
2x Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4x Heir of Falkenrath Flip
3x Incorrigible Youths
3x Stromkirk Condemned
Planeswalker (3)
2x Chandra, Flamecaller
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
4x Foreboding Ruins
7x Mountain
3x Smoldering Marsh
9x Swamp
Instant (6)
3x Fiery Temper
3x Grasp of Darkness
Sorcery (6)
4x Collective Brutality
2x Ruinous Path
2x Avacyn's Judgment
3x Duress
2x Lupine Prototype
2x Tormented Thoughts
2x Ultimate Price
4x Voldaren Pariah
Right now, it can keep up with Bant Humans, but not exactly beat them. Hand disruption is crucial and creature control is too, but I kinda want to make a solid shell of sorts. Any help is appreciated.
Standard: Larkblue's Competitive Mono Red Aggro