How can you take your turn 3 casting infinite obliteration when they Turn 3 nissa, it's just delusional to think you have the time to cast 3 spells that don't affect the board when all they do is flood the board.
Avacyn isn't even a problem for the deck, you have so much instant speed removal with ultimate price, grasp, anguished. Even the turn after it comes down, you have languish, ruinous, ob, sorin that can kill her. Same goes for advocate.
The real threats are T3 and 4 planeswalker, evolutionnary leap and late hangarback walker.
I mean if you want to compare your "nut draw" vs their nut draw you don't stand a chance,
T1 Oath T2 Advocate T3 Nissa T4 Gideon T5 Avacyn
Beat that
T1 Duress (Cancels out Nissa) T2 Removal/Transgress (cancels out Advocate or Gideon) T3 IO or transgress/duress (Takes out Avacyn or the rest of the advocates/ discard takes out Gideon) and so on. that's the line i'm looking at. Even with the instant speed removals, Avacyn's ETB will still trigger.
dude they're playing 4 of every card you talked about, you're not playing 4 of every cards you said + oath of nissa to tutor, you cant control the top of their deck, how many time have i transgressed a gideon, only to see a gideon hit the table on T4. It's much easier to lay down threats than to have the exact answer to a specific threat in your hand.
Infinite obliteratio IS NOT a card you want to play against this deck, seriously, you're just hurting yourself everytime you cast this card against them.
Having played the deck to playtest for rptq, i can assure you the gw tokens deck operates just fine if you do nothing on turn 3 except remove a card i may even not have in my hand.
And to add on the fact that you do not know what you are talking about, you can respond to the avacyn etb trigger to kill her with a price. Heck, grasp doesn't care about her etb trigger.
the etb still triggers upon removal and all their creatures still gain indestructibility right? i don't care about much about a 4/4 flyer but rather her indestructible trigger. so ur play would be, continuing with spot removals against their PWs and languish against their tokens?
BW Control needs to adjust to a changing climate. With the flavors of Green decks on the top tables everywhere, we might want to start maindecking Kalitas and Linvala, giving up the traditional advantage of being creatureless in the main, but essentially pre-boarding against 4-C Rites, WG Tokens, and Bant Coco. It's not really a change of deck or strategy, just a realignment of resources. I'm going to try this out and see if that helps -- if not, then the deck might need to be reworked.
1. Avacyn dies to just about everything.
2. Kalitas dies to Roast/Grasp/Ruinous Path/Price/Lightning Axe/all the white spells
3. Linvala gets around some of the spells, but she's a 3rd 6 drop, unless you want to drop Sorin. But, if GW tokens is what you're worried about, then Clip Wings still gets it done.
4. Most of the spells don't hit Walkers. And most decks run 2-3 Ruinous path at most, 2-3 Anguished unmaking at most.
By not running creatures in the main, you effectively give your opponents dead cards. By running them, you've either got to cut down on the # of Planeswalkers--giving yourself less viable threats, or decrease the number of kill spells--transitioning this to more of a midrangy deck.
BW control was the 2nd most represented deck on Day 2 of GP Costa Rica, just behind GW Tokens. GW tokens clearly dominated the top 8, but in a world where the deck recently moved into tier 1 status after the pro's stopped maindecking creatures--maindecking creatures isn't the answer. I'm not sure why we feel like we need an answer though, the deck is clearly in a great place.
Work on your sideboard, find a friend with GW tokens, and rep the hell out of it.
i've been using 2/3 kalitas main for a while. if decks running and being able to place multiple copies of the same card on the field are problematic enough it might even be worth bringing declaration in stone back somewhere in the 75 even if it does feel kind of lousy giving midrange decks ways of drawing cards since it makes it harder to grind them out unless you can hit tokens with it.
my only problem with more creature heavy lists is it means you have to ease up somewhere else, like less sweepers, or less planeswalker removal or less spot removal which makes you a lot stronger against creature centric lists but makes you feel kinda lousy when you go against control decks that just sit there with resolved walkers which you can't do anything about.
I ran the deck a lot before Manfield's success, and copycatted his list thereafter. The deck feels a lot smoother since the transition.
1: Too many sorcery speed cards hurts the tempo. Ideally, after swapping a few tap lands, you want to 1 for 1 their threats at the end of their turn. Declaration in stone is great when it hits 2-3 things. But if you're using it early on something you have to kill on sight--you give them more wiggle room going forward.
2: As you said--the card draw hurts. At times, it's brutal. BW Control is a grind-em out, out-value you deck. Giving them card draw in exchange for getting rid of their things goes majorly against that plan.
Deck feels really bad right now. U/G with Tireless Tracker, ramp, and Part the Waterveil is really strong (3 straight matches in a league) in a meta without counterspells, even if it isn't tearing up the tournament tables. Not to mention a hexproof manland on the side. Black eldrazi felt awful. For someone that isn't trying to make the pro tour, B/W control just feels badly placed right now. The whole competitive scene feels like 3 decks trying to next level one another while ignoring the other cards in standard. I think this is the reason why you see decks like blue prison and seasons past looking like a stroke of brilliance.
One thing that I had found great success for versus both Mono Blue and Seasons past is Warping Wail. Granted, when I say mono blue, it was the brain in the shore variant before Mullers list. I was running Mansfields list mostly, with the hallowed moonlight and all the discard in the sideboard.I felt crazy but it worked. Then the seasons past died out for me as well as the mono blue so I have since removed the warping wail in favor of discard again. I wonder if my results were due to variance or if I had stumbled on to something.
So I have been playing on MTGO a lot... So in the 'Friendly' league or even 2-man queues the meta is a bit weird and you see a lot of diversity in decks..which is good but necessarily good practice when getting ready for a bigish tournament. Competitive leagues are a bit more in line with the paper meta. Last night, for example, I played one using the list I put up a few posts back with 3 Kalitas and 2 Avacyns MD.
I faced: 2 x GW tokens (won 2-0 both of them), 2 x Bant humans (won one 2-0 lost the other one 1-2), lost vs UR Eldrazi (1-2..but it was so close in all games)
I think vs bant CoCo humans and GW tokens, the creature package makes a huge difference. Without it the decks feels naked against EOT CoCo, EOT Avacyn, EOT Ojutai's command, etc. I know this is not what the pros are playing but its worth giving them a try. Specially Avacyn, he is great...to the point that I am thinking of adding the 3rd one in the sb (he works more as as a 'spot removal spell' rather than as an attacker).
Anyway, IMO if one expects a meta heavy on GW, CoCo variants, or humans (as I expect it to be in the WMQC), the creature-version of the deck may be the way to go..
Airgaps what's the general gameplan with your list? When do you side out avacyn? What do you use it for? Why plague in the side?
I've been fustrated lately with the meta where tireless trackers, evo leap, needle spires, etc all generate advantage even after my removal and I wanted to try out a creature package, but I don't know the proper gameplan for b/w with creatures
Hi,
I feel you. I think the creature package helps: it can force them to overextend into our sweepers, helps against the death by manland attack scenario, opens the possibility of outracing them, and perhaps roe importantly, lets you ration your removal. Against other PW heavy, removal heavy strategies, the creature package is not necessarily the best... but that is what the SB is for I guess. It all depends what you expect to face. I want to maximize my chances vs CoCo and GW tokens, and have a decent overall match vs the rest.
The gameplan is essentially the same as the traditional list G1. Control the board, etc., but use Kalitas to gain life and as an 'early' blocker to slow down the early pressure (which I think is the key problem with GW tokens and CoCo). I almost always hold Avacyn back, to use him as a removal spell (or to save a Kalitas) at right moment. Basically do not rush him, unless you know it is profitable and you can go for the win.
My typical first turns are:
T1 nothing
T2 removal or discard
T3 removal for creature/PW or draw.
Hopefully at this point there is at most a creature on their side... if not one is behind but here is hope =)
T4 (I think this is the crucial turn). This is where the Kalitas is useful I think. You can play Kalitas or Gideon. If vs GW tokens or Bant I play the Kalitas always first. Gideon turn 4 is too vulnerable if there is even one creature on their side or they have mana open for CoCo EOT. Sure they can kill the Kalitas (as they would Gideon) via Dromoka's command, but you would at least gain 3 life, easing the pressure a bit.
T5 Mana open for Avacyn in response to attackers or ObNix depending on board state (specially if Kalitas survived T4).
I realize this is an specific description of my first turns but it is common enough. Obviously sometimes the opponent can outdraw you, you miss a land drop, etc. but that is Magic.
@ Creatures and sweepers: it seems that Kalitas or Avacyn clashes with a mass removal heavy list but I do not think this is necessarily the case. First of all, I have no problem sweeping the board when there is a Kaltias on my side and 3 creatures on theirs. I sweep and get 3 tokens..and come out ahead. Finally, in order to win.. (as J. R. Fox) you have be willing to call artillery fire on your position for the greater good. =)
@ Avacyn: I rarely him side out. He has turned out to be good/useful in almost all matchups and very flexible: if you need to apply pressure or go for a PW, flash block to kill their dude, or as a 3 toughness sweeper (even if u have to kill ur own man land or token EOT--works wonders), etc.
Regarding SB choices:
First of all my SB has slightly changed wrto the list I posted earlier. Basically -2 Reality smasher + 1 Linvala + 1 Planar Outburst (in later turns vs bant humans the languish is not enough to deal with pumped advocates). Also I am not saying my plan is the optimal one by any means, but has worked so far vs GW tokens and reasonably well vs Bant.
@ Virulent plague: it can be useful in many matchups.
Vs GW tokens. Vs them I forgo the EOT secure the wastes and go all into control and the Kalitas + Avacyn + PWs plan. It kills also ur Kalitas tokens, but it hurts them more I believe (in any case, in the GW matchup Kalita's token generation is not maximized)..and reduces the T4-T5 pressure which is what we have issues dealing with. Also, it becomes then very easy to flip Avacyn just creating a token out of ur Abbey.
Vs. Grixis control and UR Eldrazi. It neutralizes Chandra's +1 and their token Shenanigans (Drowner of hope, land, etc.). They have little or no way to remove the enchantment once it is in play, allowing you to better use your other resources. Complementing this with discard (duress for negates, etc.), Infi Obliteration and good old life gain should put you through.
Anyway, I hope this helps. It took me a while to adapt to the creature package (after switching between it and the PW only list for a few weeks), but certainly one has now more interactions that can only be good vs Bant and GW tokens. Good luck!
Great stuff! I'll definitely try it out and let you know, also cedric phillips is suppose to release an article soon about his main deck linvala b/w so that should be good as well
I'm curious about replacing Planar Outburst with descend upon the sinful.
Costs 1 more, so potentially if it's your only sweeper and the have the pressure on--could be the difference.
Exile is obviously better than destroy, as you never want to be Avacyn'd
It also is rare that we're in this situation with 4 Languish and only 1 outburst
Outburst gives us an extra win con. As a 1 of, it's rare that we even use it.
Descent upon CAN with delerium--but in a deck that doesn't run creatures, it's hard to hit.
I don't like Evolving wilds just to hit delerium for 1 card. I bounce back and forth from 1-2 Blighted fens vs 2-3 Abbeys.
TL;DR, Testing out descend upon the sinful as a singleton
@ Virulent plague: it can be useful in many matchups.
I think you are on to something here. You are essentially sacrificing a win con to shut them down, and Gideon is still at his best on +1 beats. If you don't go heavy on creatures, you can blank declaration in stone too. I will be trying this out as a 3 for 3 swap plague for secure the wastes in this match up and maybe the others you mentioned as well. The Chandra interaction is particularly interesting. It helps the curve too because the 4 slot is awfully busy after SB. G/W tokens has been such a nuisance lately that I forgot about why I like playing against green and white. No discard and no counterspells.
Played last night another competitive league with the list above.. 3-2.
Started with RW humans (Won 2-1), GW tokens (Won 2-1) and Bant humans (Won 2-0)... so everything according to plan..
But then LOST to
Mono U prison (Lost 1-2)..Miscalculated damage in G3 and lost. It is a tough deck that can 'combo' out of nowhere... but I think is a matter of learning to play against it.
Googles ramp: (Lost 0-2)..the second game I misplayed badly..but oh well... Should Have won that one had I not misplayed.
Will be testing -1 Westvale abbey + 1 Blighted fen...specially now that I am running only 2 secure. Also considering one To the slaughter in the SB: Good vs PWs, Prison decks, maybe ramp (even without delirium -- which is very hard to get in our deck I admit).
What do you guys think of the To the slaughter?
Can't wait for WMCQ... I feel the current configuration of the deck has a chance if the meta is dominated by Humans, Bant and GW
There was a list I was running a few weeks ago that included 2 Avacyn's, 2 Kalitas and some Linvala's in the SB. That list had some interesting lines of play, it didn't just rely on Gideons and secures as the decks "main" win cons.
I thought this version gave B/W the ability to go into beat down mode quicker and the MD Kalitas always seemed to matter. This version also had way more game against ramp, it wasn't favored but I didn't feel like it was impossible to win.
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My latest assessment after extensive mtgo testing is that this is a good meta based tournament deck, however it folds to anything rogue that doesn't revolve around creatures. Especially decks that board into a ton of counterspells.
So I ran the deck in a league with a few changes, the main thing being I wanted to see was how the main deck did with the creature package (3 kalitas 2 avacyn) and I went 3-2
g1 2-1 - mirror: avacyn and displacer did work
g2 1-2 - gr tokens: I prob played game 1 wrong, but it felt fine for the most part hard to tell
g3 0-2 - uw eldrazi flier bs: not sure how to side here and the matchup feels kinda miserable
g4 2-1 - mono red aggro: avacyyn did work
g5 2-1 - bant humans: g1 I got swarmed and didnt draw into any sweepers, g2: gideon wrecked + planar outburst, g3: he got kinda mana screwed, but kalitas closed the game out well
Overall its definitely different and prob better for the meta + I didn't run into any gw tokens, but the early removal felt kind of lacking so I'll adjust some stuff there. I'll run through another league and maybe a online ptq this weekend
There was a list I was running a few weeks ago that included 2 Avacyn's, 2 Kalitas and some Linvala's in the SB. That list had some interesting lines of play, it didn't just rely on Gideons and secures as the decks "main" win cons.
I thought this version gave B/W the ability to go into beat down mode quicker and the MD Kalitas always seemed to matter. This version also had way more game against ramp, it wasn't favored but I didn't feel like it was impossible to win.
My initial version had 3 Kalitas, 2 Avacyn. Deck seems much more powerful since removing them. Nothing is more frustrating as a midrange player than sitting there with dead removal.
@ j192: I agree that without creatures the level of power of deck increases... but I also think that it becomes more vulnerable vs GW tokens and Bant. That is my main reasoning behind advocating the inclusion of MD Kalitas and Avacyn.
Is this true form your experience also? I always felt that T4 Gideon became an impossibility in those matchups, and thus my curve became weird. For example, Ob nix would not be able to drop on turn 5 to kill a creature and then have high chance of surviving the turn. Also the creatures make it possible to come back from behind, i.e., when there is an opposing Gideon in play and we have no direct removal for him in hand, in those same matchups... The PW version not so much.
@ Coachrx: I totally agree with you. That is not to say that it is a bad deck in gral, and I think it can do well in Bant/GW dominated metas (as I expect biggish tournaments to be)
For competitive queues in MTGO is not so good because there is too much UR fliers, ramp and randoem U prison decks around... which makes at least 2 out of the 5 matches you play very dificult. To give you an example, I played one Sunday night and won twice vs GW tokens, but then played UR fliers, UR Ulamog control, and ramp. Went 2-3. Made a couple of mistakes in the ones I lost but that is precisely the point.. UR fliers is really an unforgiving matchup for us (a bad draw..a small mistiming of your spells and all goes down the drain)
I have started testing my version of an Esper list suggested by Seth Manfield (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13323&writer=Seth Manfield&articledate=6-8-2016). Basically running the same BW removal/control (including Kalitas MD) package but replacing Gideons/Secure the Wastes/hallowed moonlinght by Negates, DL Ojutai and others. The idea seems to be to have the same good matchup vs aggro but solve some of the other problems in the deck.
From my testing,
The pros:
+ The counter magic improves many matchups (mainly UR fliers and decks that go heavy on counters post sb..UR Ulamog.. sigh..)
+ Negate is, in my opinion, strictly better than Hallowed moonlight as it is more flexible and not a dead card/can trip in some matchups (as it is right now in the BW shell)
+ DL Ojutai is as good as ever, but now there are not that many sac effects. One can still protect him durign attack as before
+ DL Silumgar and Silumgar's command
++ In general I think one can partially or totally address many of the deck's shortcomings while keeping a good aggro matchup.
The negatives:
- The mana base becomes slightly more complicated but nothing that cannot be worked out (there is already a succesfull one). Also one has to be more careful with mana sequencing.
- No Gideon beatdown =(
- No 'oops I won' secure the wastes or Ormendahl win
- No Avacyn (although being able to play DL Ojutai makes up for it)
-- T4 Gideon can be devastating vs many decks. The question is however if it is still as devastating now as it was a few weeks ago.
Just for reference below is my modified list (61 cards, 27 lands) ... Sorry that I post this in this BW thread for those of you that are not interested. I will keep testing this week and make the decision about what to play in WMCQ until Saturday.
I'm toying around with the Esper deck airgaps_live mentioned and it helps somewhat by adding blue, but there is a point of diminishing returns. Post board with 4 duress, 4 negate, 4 trangress, etc. you start seriously cutting into the ways you can actually win the game. This could very well be another sideline sit for control until rotation if your ultimate goal is to win events. G/W tokens is just too threat dense to keep up with without a draw that rivals theirs in godliness.
so I've been playing around with a decklist revolving creatures, similar to airgaps and cheon's decklist (2-3 kalitas, 2 avacyn) and my league results have been varying (2-3, 3-2's). At the very least, most of my matchups feel winnable and the only one I've felt hopeless against were a UR aggro/fevered visions deck (if they get out fevered visions on turn 3, and you weren't able to get them to discard it, the matchup becomes 10x more miserable). There were a good number of matches that probably would have pushed me to 4-1, but I made a few crucial misplays and the deck is very unforgiving if you mess up. I'm still 50/50 about Kalitas in the main because of how it makes your opponent's removal valid again, but avacyn + kalitas + zombie token is an amazing thing to have game 1. At the very least it feels like Avacyn in the main is amazing because of the instant speed and the additional body + sweeper.
I was also wondering what you guys thought would be good removal against enchantments that hurt us (fevered visions, evo leap, always watching). I know the standard way to deal with it would be to get them to discard it early (duress, transgress), but if they resolve it then the only real way to deal with it would be anguished unmaking, which is kind of a tempo hurter and the life loss is no joke.
Yeah I saw that 5-2 list. It is nice and I imagine the early game is better vs. aggro variants, and the list has early blockers to further protect the T4 Gideon and PWs. Their interaction with Avacyn is also interesting as it becomes relatively easy to flip him. This can be quite useful I think, as the angel becomes another 'controllable' sweeper vs GW, Bant, etc. Will give it a run tonight in a league and see how it feels.
I am still testing the Esper list..but will most likely play BW over the weekend. =)
I've found it hard to run B/W control in my locla meta lately. Bant CoCo, Mono Blue Prison, UR Eldrazi and all kinds of anti G/W token hate is showing up. These decks also happen to be really tough match ups for BW control. GW tokens is also prevalent in my meta, but it has a huge X on it's head.
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Yeah I saw that 5-2 list. It is nice and I imagine the early game is better vs. aggro variants, and the list has early blockers to further protect the T4 Gideon and PWs. Their interaction with Avacyn is also interesting as it becomes relatively easy to flip him. This can be quite useful I think, as the angel becomes another 'controllable' sweeper vs GW, Bant, etc. Will give it a run tonight in a league and see how it feels.
I am still testing the Esper list..but will most likely play BW over the weekend. =)
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the etb still triggers upon removal and all their creatures still gain indestructibility right? i don't care about much about a 4/4 flyer but rather her indestructible trigger. so ur play would be, continuing with spot removals against their PWs and languish against their tokens?
If you think about the major (spot) removal cards:
B: Ultimate price, Grasp of Darkness, Ruinous Path
R: Roast, Fiery Impulse, Lightning Axe, Rending Volley out of the board
G: Clip wings
W: Immolating Glare, Dec in Stone, Silk Wrap/Stasis Snare
U: Bounce spells/Counter spells
Multi: Anguished unmaking, Dromoka's Command, Kolaghan's Command
1. Avacyn dies to just about everything.
2. Kalitas dies to Roast/Grasp/Ruinous Path/Price/Lightning Axe/all the white spells
3. Linvala gets around some of the spells, but she's a 3rd 6 drop, unless you want to drop Sorin. But, if GW tokens is what you're worried about, then Clip Wings still gets it done.
4. Most of the spells don't hit Walkers. And most decks run 2-3 Ruinous path at most, 2-3 Anguished unmaking at most.
By not running creatures in the main, you effectively give your opponents dead cards. By running them, you've either got to cut down on the # of Planeswalkers--giving yourself less viable threats, or decrease the number of kill spells--transitioning this to more of a midrangy deck.
BW control was the 2nd most represented deck on Day 2 of GP Costa Rica, just behind GW Tokens. GW tokens clearly dominated the top 8, but in a world where the deck recently moved into tier 1 status after the pro's stopped maindecking creatures--maindecking creatures isn't the answer. I'm not sure why we feel like we need an answer though, the deck is clearly in a great place.
Work on your sideboard, find a friend with GW tokens, and rep the hell out of it.
I ran the deck a lot before Manfield's success, and copycatted his list thereafter. The deck feels a lot smoother since the transition.
1: Too many sorcery speed cards hurts the tempo. Ideally, after swapping a few tap lands, you want to 1 for 1 their threats at the end of their turn. Declaration in stone is great when it hits 2-3 things. But if you're using it early on something you have to kill on sight--you give them more wiggle room going forward.
2: As you said--the card draw hurts. At times, it's brutal. BW Control is a grind-em out, out-value you deck. Giving them card draw in exchange for getting rid of their things goes majorly against that plan.
I faced: 2 x GW tokens (won 2-0 both of them), 2 x Bant humans (won one 2-0 lost the other one 1-2), lost vs UR Eldrazi (1-2..but it was so close in all games)
I think vs bant CoCo humans and GW tokens, the creature package makes a huge difference. Without it the decks feels naked against EOT CoCo, EOT Avacyn, EOT Ojutai's command, etc. I know this is not what the pros are playing but its worth giving them a try. Specially Avacyn, he is great...to the point that I am thinking of adding the 3rd one in the sb (he works more as as a 'spot removal spell' rather than as an attacker).
Anyway, IMO if one expects a meta heavy on GW, CoCo variants, or humans (as I expect it to be in the WMQC), the creature-version of the deck may be the way to go..
Cheers
I've been fustrated lately with the meta where tireless trackers, evo leap, needle spires, etc all generate advantage even after my removal and I wanted to try out a creature package, but I don't know the proper gameplan for b/w with creatures
Hi,
I feel you. I think the creature package helps: it can force them to overextend into our sweepers, helps against the death by manland attack scenario, opens the possibility of outracing them, and perhaps roe importantly, lets you ration your removal. Against other PW heavy, removal heavy strategies, the creature package is not necessarily the best... but that is what the SB is for I guess. It all depends what you expect to face. I want to maximize my chances vs CoCo and GW tokens, and have a decent overall match vs the rest.
The gameplan is essentially the same as the traditional list G1. Control the board, etc., but use Kalitas to gain life and as an 'early' blocker to slow down the early pressure (which I think is the key problem with GW tokens and CoCo). I almost always hold Avacyn back, to use him as a removal spell (or to save a Kalitas) at right moment. Basically do not rush him, unless you know it is profitable and you can go for the win.
My typical first turns are:
T1 nothing
T2 removal or discard
T3 removal for creature/PW or draw.
Hopefully at this point there is at most a creature on their side... if not one is behind but here is hope =)
T4 (I think this is the crucial turn). This is where the Kalitas is useful I think. You can play Kalitas or Gideon. If vs GW tokens or Bant I play the Kalitas always first. Gideon turn 4 is too vulnerable if there is even one creature on their side or they have mana open for CoCo EOT. Sure they can kill the Kalitas (as they would Gideon) via Dromoka's command, but you would at least gain 3 life, easing the pressure a bit.
T5 Mana open for Avacyn in response to attackers or ObNix depending on board state (specially if Kalitas survived T4).
I realize this is an specific description of my first turns but it is common enough. Obviously sometimes the opponent can outdraw you, you miss a land drop, etc. but that is Magic.
@ Creatures and sweepers: it seems that Kalitas or Avacyn clashes with a mass removal heavy list but I do not think this is necessarily the case. First of all, I have no problem sweeping the board when there is a Kaltias on my side and 3 creatures on theirs. I sweep and get 3 tokens..and come out ahead. Finally, in order to win.. (as J. R. Fox) you have be willing to call artillery fire on your position for the greater good. =)
@ Avacyn: I rarely him side out. He has turned out to be good/useful in almost all matchups and very flexible: if you need to apply pressure or go for a PW, flash block to kill their dude, or as a 3 toughness sweeper (even if u have to kill ur own man land or token EOT--works wonders), etc.
Regarding SB choices:
First of all my SB has slightly changed wrto the list I posted earlier. Basically -2 Reality smasher + 1 Linvala + 1 Planar Outburst (in later turns vs bant humans the languish is not enough to deal with pumped advocates). Also I am not saying my plan is the optimal one by any means, but has worked so far vs GW tokens and reasonably well vs Bant.
@ Virulent plague: it can be useful in many matchups.
Vs GW tokens. Vs them I forgo the EOT secure the wastes and go all into control and the Kalitas + Avacyn + PWs plan. It kills also ur Kalitas tokens, but it hurts them more I believe (in any case, in the GW matchup Kalita's token generation is not maximized)..and reduces the T4-T5 pressure which is what we have issues dealing with. Also, it becomes then very easy to flip Avacyn just creating a token out of ur Abbey.
Vs. Grixis control and UR Eldrazi. It neutralizes Chandra's +1 and their token Shenanigans (Drowner of hope, land, etc.). They have little or no way to remove the enchantment once it is in play, allowing you to better use your other resources. Complementing this with discard (duress for negates, etc.), Infi Obliteration and good old life gain should put you through.
Anyway, I hope this helps. It took me a while to adapt to the creature package (after switching between it and the PW only list for a few weeks), but certainly one has now more interactions that can only be good vs Bant and GW tokens. Good luck!
Costs 1 more, so potentially if it's your only sweeper and the have the pressure on--could be the difference.
Exile is obviously better than destroy, as you never want to be Avacyn'd
It also is rare that we're in this situation with 4 Languish and only 1 outburst
Outburst gives us an extra win con. As a 1 of, it's rare that we even use it.
Descent upon CAN with delerium--but in a deck that doesn't run creatures, it's hard to hit.
I don't like Evolving wilds just to hit delerium for 1 card. I bounce back and forth from 1-2 Blighted fens vs 2-3 Abbeys.
TL;DR, Testing out descend upon the sinful as a singleton
I think you are on to something here. You are essentially sacrificing a win con to shut them down, and Gideon is still at his best on +1 beats. If you don't go heavy on creatures, you can blank declaration in stone too. I will be trying this out as a 3 for 3 swap plague for secure the wastes in this match up and maybe the others you mentioned as well. The Chandra interaction is particularly interesting. It helps the curve too because the 4 slot is awfully busy after SB. G/W tokens has been such a nuisance lately that I forgot about why I like playing against green and white. No discard and no counterspells.
Started with RW humans (Won 2-1), GW tokens (Won 2-1) and Bant humans (Won 2-0)... so everything according to plan..
But then LOST to
Mono U prison (Lost 1-2)..Miscalculated damage in G3 and lost. It is a tough deck that can 'combo' out of nowhere... but I think is a matter of learning to play against it.
Googles ramp: (Lost 0-2)..the second game I misplayed badly..but oh well... Should Have won that one had I not misplayed.
Will be testing -1 Westvale abbey + 1 Blighted fen...specially now that I am running only 2 secure. Also considering one To the slaughter in the SB: Good vs PWs, Prison decks, maybe ramp (even without delirium -- which is very hard to get in our deck I admit).
What do you guys think of the To the slaughter?
Can't wait for WMCQ... I feel the current configuration of the deck has a chance if the meta is dominated by Humans, Bant and GW
Cheers
This was the list (was posted by Paul Cheon)
2 Archangel Avacyn
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Spells: (23)
3 Transgress the Mind
3 Languish
4 Grasp of Darkness
2 Ultimate Price
3 Anguished Unmaking
3 Secure the Wastes
3 Read the Bones
2 Ruinous Path
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Land (26)
7 Swamp
4 Plains
4 Shambling Vent
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Forsaken Sanctuary
2 Westvale Abbey
1 Blighted Fen
2 Linvala, the Preserver
2 Ultimate Price
2 Infinite Obliteration
2 Hallowed Moonlight
1 Read the Bones
1 Transgress the Mind
3 Duress
2 Declaration in Stone
I thought this version gave B/W the ability to go into beat down mode quicker and the MD Kalitas always seemed to matter. This version also had way more game against ramp, it wasn't favored but I didn't feel like it was impossible to win.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
g1 2-1 - mirror: avacyn and displacer did work
g2 1-2 - gr tokens: I prob played game 1 wrong, but it felt fine for the most part hard to tell
g3 0-2 - uw eldrazi flier bs: not sure how to side here and the matchup feels kinda miserable
g4 2-1 - mono red aggro: avacyyn did work
g5 2-1 - bant humans: g1 I got swarmed and didnt draw into any sweepers, g2: gideon wrecked + planar outburst, g3: he got kinda mana screwed, but kalitas closed the game out well
Overall its definitely different and prob better for the meta + I didn't run into any gw tokens, but the early removal felt kind of lacking so I'll adjust some stuff there. I'll run through another league and maybe a online ptq this weekend
My initial version had 3 Kalitas, 2 Avacyn. Deck seems much more powerful since removing them. Nothing is more frustrating as a midrange player than sitting there with dead removal.
Is this true form your experience also? I always felt that T4 Gideon became an impossibility in those matchups, and thus my curve became weird. For example, Ob nix would not be able to drop on turn 5 to kill a creature and then have high chance of surviving the turn. Also the creatures make it possible to come back from behind, i.e., when there is an opposing Gideon in play and we have no direct removal for him in hand, in those same matchups... The PW version not so much.
@ Coachrx: I totally agree with you. That is not to say that it is a bad deck in gral, and I think it can do well in Bant/GW dominated metas (as I expect biggish tournaments to be)
For competitive queues in MTGO is not so good because there is too much UR fliers, ramp and randoem U prison decks around... which makes at least 2 out of the 5 matches you play very dificult. To give you an example, I played one Sunday night and won twice vs GW tokens, but then played UR fliers, UR Ulamog control, and ramp. Went 2-3. Made a couple of mistakes in the ones I lost but that is precisely the point.. UR fliers is really an unforgiving matchup for us (a bad draw..a small mistiming of your spells and all goes down the drain)
I have started testing my version of an Esper list suggested by Seth Manfield (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13323&writer=Seth Manfield&articledate=6-8-2016). Basically running the same BW removal/control (including Kalitas MD) package but replacing Gideons/Secure the Wastes/hallowed moonlinght by Negates, DL Ojutai and others. The idea seems to be to have the same good matchup vs aggro but solve some of the other problems in the deck.
From my testing,
The pros:
+ The counter magic improves many matchups (mainly UR fliers and decks that go heavy on counters post sb..UR Ulamog.. sigh..)
+ Negate is, in my opinion, strictly better than Hallowed moonlight as it is more flexible and not a dead card/can trip in some matchups (as it is right now in the BW shell)
+ DL Ojutai is as good as ever, but now there are not that many sac effects. One can still protect him durign attack as before
+ DL Silumgar and Silumgar's command
++ In general I think one can partially or totally address many of the deck's shortcomings while keeping a good aggro matchup.
The negatives:
- The mana base becomes slightly more complicated but nothing that cannot be worked out (there is already a succesfull one). Also one has to be more careful with mana sequencing.
- No Gideon beatdown =(
- No 'oops I won' secure the wastes or Ormendahl win
- No Avacyn (although being able to play DL Ojutai makes up for it)
-- T4 Gideon can be devastating vs many decks. The question is however if it is still as devastating now as it was a few weeks ago.
Just for reference below is my modified list (61 cards, 27 lands) ... Sorry that I post this in this BW thread for those of you that are not interested. I will keep testing this week and make the decision about what to play in WMCQ until Saturday.
4 Choked Estuary
4 Shambling Vent
3 Sunken Hollow
3 Island
6 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Prairie Stream
3 Evolving Wilds
\\CARD DRAW/FILTERING
2 Read the Bones
1 Painful Truths
2 Anticipate
\\REMOVAL + COUNTER
3 Negate
4 Languish
4 Grasp of Darkness
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Ruinous Path
1 Ultimate Price
1 Declaration in Stone
1 Silumgar's Command
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Dragonlord Silumgar
3 Dragonlord Ojutai
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
3 Duress
2 Infinite Obliteration
1 Dark Petition
3 Transgress the Mind
2 Virulent Plague
1 Negate
1 Silumgar's Command
1 Orbs of Warding
1 To the Slaughter
I've run 2-3 Stasis Snare out of the board.
MD, I run 2 Ruinous path, 3 Anguished unmaking
The best way to deal with Gideon in these matchups is discard spells.
I was also wondering what you guys thought would be good removal against enchantments that hurt us (fevered visions, evo leap, always watching). I know the standard way to deal with it would be to get them to discard it early (duress, transgress), but if they resolve it then the only real way to deal with it would be anguished unmaking, which is kind of a tempo hurter and the life loss is no joke.
Also I noticed this deck went 5-2 in an online ptq running Ayli and Hangerback, thoughts?
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/429798#online
Yeah I saw that 5-2 list. It is nice and I imagine the early game is better vs. aggro variants, and the list has early blockers to further protect the T4 Gideon and PWs. Their interaction with Avacyn is also interesting as it becomes relatively easy to flip him. This can be quite useful I think, as the angel becomes another 'controllable' sweeper vs GW, Bant, etc. Will give it a run tonight in a league and see how it feels.
I am still testing the Esper list..but will most likely play BW over the weekend. =)
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Yeah I saw that 5-2 list. It is nice and I imagine the early game is better vs. aggro variants, and the list has early blockers to further protect the T4 Gideon and PWs. Their interaction with Avacyn is also interesting as it becomes relatively easy to flip him. This can be quite useful I think, as the angel becomes another 'controllable' sweeper vs GW, Bant, etc. Will give it a run tonight in a league and see how it feels.
I am still testing the Esper list..but will most likely play BW over the weekend. =)