Dead Weight should be pretty important at least the first couple weeks when aggro (usually R) is expected to be rampant. Being able to kill a T1 Zurgo, Bellstriker while on the draw is pretty huge. It's almost like having Shock without red, except at sorcery speed... and also having relevance against larger targets.
My own list that I'm hoping to play early in the format (depending on how quickly my pre-ordered cards from TCG arrive).
Dead Weight should be pretty important at least the first couple weeks when aggro (usually R) is expected to be rampant. Being able to kill a T1 Zurgo, Bellstriker while on the draw is pretty huge. It's almost like having Shock without red, except at sorcery speed... and also having relevance against larger targets.
My own list that I'm hoping to play early in the format (depending on how quickly my pre-ordered cards from TCG arrive).
So, I'm looking for thoughts on Silkwrap vs Declaration in Stone. Both are awesome 2 mana enchantment exiles. However, I'm wondering which between the two to run. I know some on here have chosen to mainboard Silkwrap because it doesn't give them a clue. But I'd argue that Silkwrap is too situational to be mainboarded, as it is often a dead card against eldrazi and ramp decks; both of which are difficult matchups, at least for me. I also think that Stasis Snare is a bit too high costed to just affect creatures; even if it is at instant speed. We honestly have so many removal options, it's hard to find a balance.
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Standard Decks:
:symw::symw:W/u Humans (No Geist!):symw::symu:
Record: 22-3-0
Declaration in Stone I believe is a better choice for three reasons. First it has very little boundaries it cant deal with.Every type of creature that it can target gets exiled. This means it's rarely a dead card in your hand. Essentially what you doing is changing the board state for a random card off the top of your opponents deck. That's fine with me it could be what they needed or it could be nothing.It still however has to go though the casting process which intern gives you more time to get your deck online or open them up for attack. Secondly, it wipes out tokens and multiples which silkwrap cannot. Last it exiles its target and then puts itself in the graveyard. Silkwrap is to vulnerable on the field to get removed by your opponent.
The only real problem with Declaration in Stone is that it is sorcery speed. Huge buzz kill ,but I can see why. If it was instant speed it would dominate standard and probably other formats. The current power level is acceptable to say the least. It is best pared with some type of instant speed removal like Anguished Unmakingfrom my testing. This is so you can cover different types of threats.
I'm sure somebody can vouch for Silkwrapon here and explain in detail,then you can make your own decision.
I agree. I'm all over this card. I actually think it might be the best removal spell in Standard since at least Detention Sphere, and maybe the best since Dismember.
But this isn't a problem when comparing Declaration in Stone with Silkwrap, since that is also sorcery speed.
The clue tokens are the only things in Silkwrap's favor. But they are mostly irrelevant. Your opponent can use them to draw cards, but only at the cost of 2 mana each, so the opponent is likely giving up casting other things. And it's also very likely that what he draws is going to be less of a problem than what you removed.
To me Declaration in Stone makes Silkwrap old news for a few reasons.
Top deck mode. Declaration is never a dead card. It can kill early and late creatures.
It kills multiple creatures or takes out a slew of tokens.
Exile is relevant when dealing with World Breaker, Raptor and Jace (they can't Ocommand him back)
The downside is Investigate, but it's not like decks can take advantage of it early and if they do decide too then they took a turn off from developing their board which is a win. Also I assure you because of the variance of magic, the card you exile is almost always better than the card they draw. I mean you exile Jace for a reason, pretty sure them drawing a land or removal will never be as strong as that card, same goes for other problematic creatures like World Breaker.
I posted matchups in the new standard discussion thread (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-archives/679541-b-w-control?page=4#c100), but will summarize here. Deck crushes most GBx, Vampires, UWx strategies. I feel pretty even with Bant Company, GR tokens, GR Ramp, GB Abbey/Rite shenanigans, and GW Humans builds. Deck does not feel good against Red Eldrazi. That matchup has been miserable. The sweepers could probably be adjusted. I'm not sure what card in the board would be great against Eldrazi plus Thopters and Chandra, but I feel like I could trim some Surge of Righteousness since mono red/vampires has seemed weak from what I've seen.
Cut the delirium synergies, because it was hard to get the 4/4 off of Descend Upon. No Dead Weight, no Evolving Wilds. Silkwrap is fine, but answer alls are just better. Wish the mana was good enough for Stasis Snare. The fourth Transgress could probably be trimmed depending on how much Ramp there is.
Edit: The clues don't matter super much, because you really want to be killing tokens with it, but otherwise a lot of decks are built to be using their mana a lot and can't take the time off to activate it early on. Later in the game we are drawing cards with Sorin and Ob so we can match what cards they are able to draw off the clues.
I'm happy to see someone is as excited about Alhammarret's Archive as me! I feel like it might be too slow right off the bat, but I can absolutely see that card being great once the post-rotation aggro calms down.
There's lots of good options in these 2 colors, for removal, threats, and card drawing, and it may well be a while before the best version is determined. I am still in the development stage, but I think I will want:
1. Minimal creatures main deck - maybe none (to reduce the effectiveness of the opponent's main deck removal), but maybe Linvala, the Preserver or Wasteland Strangler, cards that have a bonus against aggro decks.
2. Enough instant-speed removal. Quite a bit of the best new removal is sorcery speed, and I'm worried about opposing man-lands and instant-speed Angels and Warriors. Grasp of Darkness, Anguished Unmaking, and Blighted Fen look good, and maybe even Virulent Plague (not an instant, of course, but pro-active against tokens).
3. I'm liking the idea of Dark Petition in the main deck to fetch up multiple answers when needed. This deck should always have spell mastery turned on, and a mini-toolbox of 3cc 1-ofs sounds good for a control deck.
4. Making sure to play enough lands. Especially with access to Shambling Vents, Blighted Fen, and Westvale Abbey, I'm thinking that a minimum of 26 lands is needed.
There's lots of good options in these 2 colors, for removal, threats, and card drawing, and it may well be a while before the best version is determined. I am still in the development stage, but I think I will want:
1. Minimal creatures main deck - maybe none (to reduce the effectiveness of the opponent's main deck removal), but maybe Linvala, the Preserver or Wasteland Strangler, cards that have a bonus against aggro decks.
2. Enough instant-speed removal. Quite a bit of the best new removal is sorcery speed, and I'm worried about opposing man-lands and instant-speed Angels and Warriors. Grasp of Darkness, Anguished Unmaking, and Blighted Fen look good, and maybe even Virulent Plague (not an instant, of course, but pro-active against tokens).
3. I'm liking the idea of Dark Petition in the main deck to fetch up multiple answers when needed. This deck should always have spell mastery turned on, and a mini-toolbox of 3cc 1-ofs sounds good for a control deck.
4. Making sure to play enough lands. Especially with access to Shambling Vents, Blighted Fen, and Westvale Abbey, I'm thinking that a minimum of 26 lands is needed.
I agree on everythingexcept the instant speed removal..I think we are okay, between anguished unmaking and Secure the wastes we have enough to answer most threats. maybe Ultimate Price
So far in testing I've seen a lot of midrange-matchups. I worry that I don't have enough for R or R/x Aggro out of the board. But Kalitas, Sorin (if I get there) and 2 Langish should help. I originally main-decked Linvala,, and she's definitely value late game, but I've definitely had to mull a few times over too many high-costed cards.
I'm still not 100% sure what to expect in terms of the Meta.
UW humans seems to showing up a good bit online (I mostly do xmage/untap)
Esper fliers is definitely a tough matchup. Running some sorcery speed removal makes Ojutai better than you'd like. I added in 2 blighted fens to hopefully help with this.
Bant coco is still really powerful, the problem I'm seeing with it is the landbase puts it back by a turn or 2.
I keep reading/hearing about token builds, is it worth having 1-2 virulent plague?
A guy that plays at my LGS says he's doing 5 colored superfriends, do I need more planeswalker hate?
I posted matchups in the new standard discussion thread (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-archives/679541-b-w-control?page=4#c100), but will summarize here. Deck crushes most GBx, Vampires, UWx strategies. I feel pretty even with Bant Company, GR tokens, GR Ramp, GB Abbey/Rite shenanigans, and GW Humans builds. Deck does not feel good against Red Eldrazi. That matchup has been miserable. The sweepers could probably be adjusted. I'm not sure what card in the board would be great against Eldrazi plus Thopters and Chandra, but I feel like I could trim some Surge of Righteousness since mono red/vampires has seemed weak from what I've seen.
Cut the delirium synergies, because it was hard to get the 4/4 off of Descend Upon. No Dead Weight, no Evolving Wilds. Silkwrap is fine, but answer alls are just better. Wish the mana was good enough for Stasis Snare. The fourth Transgress could probably be trimmed depending on how much Ramp there is.
Edit: The clues don't matter super much, because you really want to be killing tokens with it, but otherwise a lot of decks are built to be using their mana a lot and can't take the time off to activate it early on. Later in the game we are drawing cards with Sorin and Ob so we can match what cards they are able to draw off the clues.
This is more or less what I've been building towards, I'm still using Wilds and Descend - the 4/4 is a bonus, the big upside is exiling everything on their board -1 Ob nix +1 Sorin, -1 oath +1 anguished, swap planar for descend
I like the idea of Quarantine Field but that XX in the casting cost is really expensive. I would have preferred it to be XWWW. Collected Company is the obvious target of Hallowed Moonlight, but what other targets are there? I'm curious if there is enough variety to justify putting a copy or two in the main deck. Also, has anyone looked at Sinister Concoction for removal. I like the fact it gives a turn 1 play and can sit there acting as a deterrent. It's hard to bring down the Dragonlord Atarka when for basically B it's getting destroyed, and you can see it coming a mile away. Cards like that remind me of the old trick of leaving UU untapped to bluff the Counterspell.
How has Westvale Abbey performed so far? I like the card, a lot, but I wonder if it can be reliably flipped.
Not a fan of the enchantment removal. GW is still poised to be a great deck which means 4 commands main and more enchant hate in the side. I do.like field but I think I'd stash in the side for thr mirror or against control and other midrange straegies.
i have a ton of enchantment removal in my W/B - 3 Stasis Snare, 1 Quarantine Field, and 2 Silkwrap. (I dunno if 6 counts as a ton but ye) The occasional enchantment hate can be a pain but it's nothing bad. And Quarantine Field pays for itself and more at 8 mana
Descend Upon the Sinful is more efficient than Quarantine Field imo, its likely you would be casting both around the same time and you might as well exile everything.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-archives/642217-bw-control
4 Forsaken Sanctuary
4 Shambling Vent
4 Caves of Koilos
5 Swamp
2 Westvale Abbey // Ormendahl, Profane Prince
4 plains
2 Blighted Fen
Creatures (2)
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Spells (26)
4 Read the Bones
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Duress
3 Ruinous Path
2 Declaration in Stone
4 Secure the Wastes
1 Planar Outburst
4 Grasp of Darkness
2 Languish
2 To the Slaughter
2 Stasis Snare
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
4 Transgress the Mind
2 Silkwrap
2 Descend Upon the Sinful
2 Infinite Obliteration
2 Languish
2 Hallowed Moonlight
1 Anguished Unmaking
My own list that I'm hoping to play early in the format (depending on how quickly my pre-ordered cards from TCG arrive).
2x Forsaken Sanctuary
7x Plains
4x Shambling Vent
7x Swamp
2x Westvale Abbey
4x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
2x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2x Declaration in Stone
2x Duress
4x Read the Bones
2x Transgress the Mind
2x Anguished Unmaking
4x Secure the Wastes
2x Ultimate Price
2x Dead Weight
2x Oath of Gideon
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Linvala, the Preserver
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Duress
4x Flaying Tendrils
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2x Ruinous Path
2x Transgress the Mind
2x Ultimate Price
Yea, I like this list too! I was thinking about oath of Gideon as well...lots of great options.
:symw::symw:W/u Humans (No Geist!):symw::symu:
Record: 22-3-0
The only real problem with Declaration in Stone is that it is sorcery speed. Huge buzz kill ,but I can see why. If it was instant speed it would dominate standard and probably other formats. The current power level is acceptable to say the least. It is best pared with some type of instant speed removal like Anguished Unmakingfrom my testing. This is so you can cover different types of threats.
I'm sure somebody can vouch for Silkwrapon here and explain in detail,then you can make your own decision.
I agree. I'm all over this card. I actually think it might be the best removal spell in Standard since at least Detention Sphere, and maybe the best since Dismember.
But this isn't a problem when comparing Declaration in Stone with Silkwrap, since that is also sorcery speed.
The clue tokens are the only things in Silkwrap's favor. But they are mostly irrelevant. Your opponent can use them to draw cards, but only at the cost of 2 mana each, so the opponent is likely giving up casting other things. And it's also very likely that what he draws is going to be less of a problem than what you removed.
Top deck mode. Declaration is never a dead card. It can kill early and late creatures.
It kills multiple creatures or takes out a slew of tokens.
Exile is relevant when dealing with World Breaker, Raptor and Jace (they can't Ocommand him back)
The downside is Investigate, but it's not like decks can take advantage of it early and if they do decide too then they took a turn off from developing their board which is a win. Also I assure you because of the variance of magic, the card you exile is almost always better than the card they draw. I mean you exile Jace for a reason, pretty sure them drawing a land or removal will never be as strong as that card, same goes for other problematic creatures like World Breaker.
3 Grasp of Darkness
4 Declaration in Stone
4 Transgress the Mind
3 Oath of Gideon
4 Read the Bones
2 Ruinous Path
2 Anguished Unmaking
1 Languish
1 Planar Outburst
3 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
4 Caves of Koilos
5 Plains
6 Swamp
4 Forsaken Sanctuary
4 Shambling Vent
2 Blighted Fen
1 Westvale Abbey
2 Duress
1 Dark Petition
2 Flaying Tendrils
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Hallowed Moonlight
1 Languish
I posted matchups in the new standard discussion thread (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-archives/679541-b-w-control?page=4#c100), but will summarize here. Deck crushes most GBx, Vampires, UWx strategies. I feel pretty even with Bant Company, GR tokens, GR Ramp, GB Abbey/Rite shenanigans, and GW Humans builds. Deck does not feel good against Red Eldrazi. That matchup has been miserable. The sweepers could probably be adjusted. I'm not sure what card in the board would be great against Eldrazi plus Thopters and Chandra, but I feel like I could trim some Surge of Righteousness since mono red/vampires has seemed weak from what I've seen.
Cut the delirium synergies, because it was hard to get the 4/4 off of Descend Upon. No Dead Weight, no Evolving Wilds. Silkwrap is fine, but answer alls are just better. Wish the mana was good enough for Stasis Snare. The fourth Transgress could probably be trimmed depending on how much Ramp there is.
Edit: The clues don't matter super much, because you really want to be killing tokens with it, but otherwise a lot of decks are built to be using their mana a lot and can't take the time off to activate it early on. Later in the game we are drawing cards with Sorin and Ob so we can match what cards they are able to draw off the clues.
3x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Linvala, the Preserver
1x Drana, Liberator of Malakir
2x Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
Planeswalkers
2x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
4x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Instants / Sorceries
2x Duress
2x Anguished Unmaking
3x Declaration in Stone
3x Grasp of Darkness
1x Ruinous Path
3x Secure the Wastes
4x Read the Bones
2x Dead Weight
Lands
4x Shambling Vent
2x Forsaken Sanctuary
2x Evolving Wilds
2x Westvale Abbey
4x Caves of Koilos
8x Swamp
4x Plains
1x Duress
4x Transgress the Mind
2x Dead Weight
3x Infinite Obliteration
3x Flaying Tendrils
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
1x Ruinous Path
1. Minimal creatures main deck - maybe none (to reduce the effectiveness of the opponent's main deck removal), but maybe Linvala, the Preserver or Wasteland Strangler, cards that have a bonus against aggro decks.
2. Enough instant-speed removal. Quite a bit of the best new removal is sorcery speed, and I'm worried about opposing man-lands and instant-speed Angels and Warriors. Grasp of Darkness, Anguished Unmaking, and Blighted Fen look good, and maybe even Virulent Plague (not an instant, of course, but pro-active against tokens).
3. I'm liking the idea of Dark Petition in the main deck to fetch up multiple answers when needed. This deck should always have spell mastery turned on, and a mini-toolbox of 3cc 1-ofs sounds good for a control deck.
4. Making sure to play enough lands. Especially with access to Shambling Vents, Blighted Fen, and Westvale Abbey, I'm thinking that a minimum of 26 lands is needed.
I agree on everythingexcept the instant speed removal..I think we are okay, between anguished unmaking and Secure the wastes we have enough to answer most threats. maybe Ultimate Price
2 Blighted Fen
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Forsaken Sanctuary
6 Plains
4 Shambling Vent
6 Swamp
2 Westvale Abbey
Non-Creature
2 Dead Weight
3 Grasp of Darkness
2 Stasis Snare
2 Duress
2 Languish
4 Read the Bones
3 Secure the Wastes
3 Declaration in Stone
2 Anguished Unmaking
1 Ob Nixilis, Reignited
3 Gideon Ally of Zendikar
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Creature
2 Archangel Avacyn
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Ruinous Path
1 Linvala, The Preserver
1 Planar Outburst
3 Flaying Tendrils
3 Infinite Obliteration
2 Transgress the Mind
3 Hallowed Moonlight
Would love feedback on my list.
So far in testing I've seen a lot of midrange-matchups. I worry that I don't have enough for R or R/x Aggro out of the board. But Kalitas, Sorin (if I get there) and 2 Langish should help. I originally main-decked Linvala,, and she's definitely value late game, but I've definitely had to mull a few times over too many high-costed cards.
I'm still not 100% sure what to expect in terms of the Meta.
UW humans seems to showing up a good bit online (I mostly do xmage/untap)
Esper fliers is definitely a tough matchup. Running some sorcery speed removal makes Ojutai better than you'd like. I added in 2 blighted fens to hopefully help with this.
Bant coco is still really powerful, the problem I'm seeing with it is the landbase puts it back by a turn or 2.
I keep reading/hearing about token builds, is it worth having 1-2 virulent plague?
A guy that plays at my LGS says he's doing 5 colored superfriends, do I need more planeswalker hate?
This is more or less what I've been building towards, I'm still using Wilds and Descend - the 4/4 is a bonus, the big upside is exiling everything on their board -1 Ob nix +1 Sorin, -1 oath +1 anguished, swap planar for descend
How has Westvale Abbey performed so far? I like the card, a lot, but I wonder if it can be reliably flipped.