With 4 always watching and 4 Thalia's lieutenant you would be surprised. She is more of a flash blocker and Angelic Purge helps you to intentionally flip her for extra damage and wipes which I also concluded you can Eerie Interlude your creatures out of.
I've been staying away from 2-4 Dragonlord Ojutai because I want to keep the deck more aggressive, and I don't own any.
I would like to have Consul's Lieutenant in the deck, but don't have a roster spot for him.
My sideboard feels pretty good, but I can't decide between a few things:
Do I run 4 Cleric of the Forward Order or 3 Lantern Scout? I don't like how conditional the lifegain from the Scout is; it could be a lot, or it could be nothing. At least the Cleric offers guaranteed lifegain, and is a Human.
I don't think any of these have a high enough power level to be worth a slot, to be honest. Lightwalker is below rate and only combos with Thalia's Lieutenant. Akroan Jailer does literally nothing on offense or defense and requires 3 mana a turn to turn something off. It's much easier to use that 3 mana to cast a single Stasis Snare and get rid of the problem permanently (essentially). Dunecaster is the same, with the added bonus of not being able to attack ever. Arashin Foremost is the most interesting, but the best humans aren't warriors so both it and Herald are way too low impact to bother.
With 4 always watching and 4 Thalia's lieutenant you would be surprised. She is more of a flash blocker and Angelic Purge helps you to intentionally flip her for extra damage and wipes which I also concluded you can Eerie Interlude your creatures out of.
0Click to like this
So you have 8 cards (of which you need two on the field at any given time) to keep your creatures alive? You also need 6 mana to cast Angelic Purge and Eerie Interlude in the same turn, assuming your opponent doesn't have a way to screw with you.
I don't think Avacyn is good in this deck and I hate cards that require me to play other cards to make them playable when there are other, just as powerful, options for the same CMC.
Silvestri also says that Avacyn isn't worth it over Sigarda.
Edit: Added some more cards to the primer (Ojutai, some Green creatures and counters).
With 4 always watching and 4 Thalia's lieutenant you would be surprised. She is more of a flash blocker and Angelic Purge helps you to intentionally flip her for extra damage and wipes which I also concluded you can Eerie Interlude your creatures out of.
She's really not that good in this deck. You are an aggressive deck, and playing to have a turn 5 flash blocker is so low upside in comparison to the extreme downfall of your opponent flipping her intentionally to wipe your board. Regardless of what cards you are running in your deck that keep your team from dying, you are looking at dream situations and ignoring the situations where you don't have a fifth land, or you don't have two, or they kill your guy in response to Avacyn's indestructible trigger. Then there are those situations where you have a full board and can't break through and you either hold Avacyn or put your team at risk. Is Avacyn a great card? Absolutely. Does she belong in W/x Humans? Absolutely not. She is NOT the top end of a weenie deck because she Wrathsyour board. She is easily the best white card in the set, but she is NOT meant for this deck, because more often then not, she will be a risk with not enough upside, especially in a world where the opposing Wrath effects are Languish.
Somebody on reddit posted a Bant Humans list today, which you can find here. I'll admit that I'm not the biggest fan of the mana. It can be kind of wonky and you don't get to play good cards like Knight of the White Orchid or Consul's Lieutenant.
I tried a Bant list a few times, lots of great options and once you get going you don't stop, but the mana is too rough too consistently. Those reveal lands make things so awkward.
After some thought, I really think I like the W/G version of this deck more. A lot of the creatures just have more value, and don't rely on Always Watching to be truly great. Den Protector + Deathmist will continue to be insane in this format, and I just love the immense value all of the creatures bring, rather than just being beats. I know this thread is called aggressive humans, and this deck isn't really so much about the humans, but there isn't anything on page 1 focusing on W/G Aggro / Midrange. Maybe it's time I write a primer?
As you could probably already tell, I removed my 4 and 5 drop bombs along with Consul's and Land. I replaced them with Anafenza, Inspector, Gossipmonger, and an extra Kytheon for a completely aggressive approach. The reason for these changes is because I feel that we have access the most aggressive synergy in the format. Anafenza, Always Watching, and Thalia's Lieutenant all have one thing in common; they reward having multiple 1 drops in your hand to be as aggressive possible. Lastly, having a lower curve means less lands are needed and Knight has been excellent in fixing any poor mana situations. Below you'll find some more depth for these changes.
Mainboard Changes:
++Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit: I'm not entirely sure why we need non-human bombs that skews our curve when we have something that can be just as impactful at an earlier stage of the game! It's been really fun casting him Turn 2 then following it up with 3 one drops on Turn 3. In a way he's like another Thalia's Lieutenant! I originally had him at 2 but since I removed Consul's I want to have him out on Turn 2 as often as he gets removed - which is almost always for a good reason.
++Thraben Inspector: I took for granted his value and durability. He also becomes so much stronger with Anafenza in the deck because most of our creatures have a toughness of two so we can easily make one of our lords - such as Anafenza herself - be able to survive Tendrils and Kozilek's which is huge in my eyes. Ultimately, I have 11 ways to make him a durable 2/3 which has been more threatening than a fragile 3/2 that also doesn't give me draw power - which we really lack in the deck.
++Town Gossipmonger: Before trying him out I thought he was too slow in a deck that needs to be aggressive but I was wrong. It has been more rewarding flipping him on Turn 2 than being unable to efficiently attack with a 1 drop because I'm facing a 2/3 - damn you Sylvan Advocate - or an icey wall - I hate you Thing in the Ice. As crazy as it sounds, flipping him has totally been worth the sacrifice of a turn. He becomes a beefy human with a built-in mana sink which is superb in the same way Thraben is (value). His biggest downside is when he gets bounced to my hand.
--Consul's Lieutenant: I rarely got to make use of his 3rd ability and between Anafenza and him, Anafenza was always better to play on Turn 2. Overall I felt he was too slow and his first strike has been more relevant than his other 2 abilities. I might be wrong in removing another potential 'lord' so I'll keep testing.
Sideboard Changes:
++Gideon, Ally of Zendikar: His spot could just as easily have been Tithes, Avacyn, or Dragonlord Ojutai but those all fall prey to the same thing (removal/board wipes). Against decks with a lot of creature removal and board wipes I usually side these bad boys in along with Negate and it's been extremely potent. His modes are all relevant and although he produces non-human tokens, it serves as a semi-eternal attacker/blocker and helps me go wide.
--Ojutai's Command: The card is undeniably strong but Gideon has been better in its slot and the latter has more synergy with our deck.
Emberflux you need to consider having Archangel of Tithes and/or Dragonlord Ojutai in your sideboard. There are so many decks running Radiant Flames, Kozilek's Return, Languish, or Flaying Tendrils. I have tested your version of the deck thoroughly and I can tell you turn 3 and turn 4 board wipes are going to crush your soul. Your only answer is 4 negates that you have to keep mana open for.
I have found that on turn 5 we find it easy to keep the mana open for Negate but prior to that our board is in a tricky spot. Here is what I find with this kind of deck. Against the control decks that run come into play tapped lands we rock them first game because we literally play so many creatures they can't stabilize. Game 2 specifically they got a great chance of staying ahead of you with removal.
I have moved two Ojutai and one Archangel into the main deck and I find I can still pressure them early while holding a game winning Ojutai.
Edit* I have also found 3 negates main board do wonders. It helps against CoCo, removal, planewalkers and I even have negated G/r's ramp cards. I think the negates work well to get us there.
reasons i use lightwalker, herald and formost is due to my thinking of odric in deck to share abilities
Not sure how it pans out over other angel, dragon and splashes but was thinking ordic makes the deck more adaptable
jailer is not near as good as an older tapper soldier, but being able to tap some big baddie before it stomps a mudhole in you with 3 mana till you can draw that removal isnt the worst
While i really like gideon in the sb you have to make a choice. Kytheon in the deck or no kytheon. I chose keeping kytheon and put ojutai in the board. I've never switched back because ojutai has been less vunerable to removal in my experience. I really want to bring them in vs bw control/midrange and gideon dies about as frequently as ojutai and has trouble being stalled by tokens. That said gideon is a fantastic sb or even mainboard card, just drop the kytheon. Another note, you should really try out eerie interlude over negate. You are running stasis snare and if you threw ojutai's command back in, it would be easy to bluff or just leave up without too much downside. It is often better for dealing with chandra (and other boardwhipes) than negate since sometimes their own creatures are caught in the whipe and you get new etb triggers. Finally i'm interested in how dont think taking out consol's lieutenant works out. I don't think it is the right call, but it seems to make more sense in your list because you have so many 1 drops to go with anafenza. Let us know if that permanent toughness boost is worth it. Overal I like your list. It shows quite a bit of thought.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Check out my Sales 50% OFF everything for the next 48 hours.
I'm debating between humans and allies and some combination of both, along with what color to splash with white. I think both green and blue has its merits.
Blue also adds negate, ojutai, and essence flux
Green adds dromoka's command, coco, and pulse of murasa in the side board (though u might not need with lantern scout)
And if you move more towards ally synergy, Gideon and his oath gets a lot better, though you lose out on always watching synergy. Thoughts?
I don't think allies has enough synergy to warp your deck around slightly worse creatures. The aggressive creatures in White and Green (and Reflector Mage) are better than most of the allies and have a better payoff.
Tireless Tracker is crazy good and helps you in the inevitable board stalls and after board wipes. I'm still at 6 1 drops though I'm considering changing Dragon Hunter into Thraben Inspector.
Militia Captain wasn't worth keeping in the main but is still really good against some decks, so I put it into the sideboard. Dragonslayer has also been pretty good out of the board in certain spots.
Edit: as for GW Company I'll admit that I'm not that big of a fan of the Deathmist/Protector package. It's been pretty clunky whenever I tried it and I found that I just wanted Thalia's Lieutenant and Hangarback Walker more. Josh Silvestri posted a list for it here where he suspects the same thing that I do.
Keep in mind that these are only initial reactions though, since I haven't put in as much time on that deck as I have on pure aggressive human decks.
Something to consider as a possible funny interaction... Stasis Snare is a good card to hold up to protect Always Watching against Dromoka's Command. Imagine they cast Dromoka's Command, perhaps wanting to fight one of your creatures and make you sacrifice an enchantment. In response, flash in Stasis Snare, target your own creature they are fighting, sac it to Dromoka's Command while blanking their fight, get your creature back, if it has an ETB effect (Thalia's Lieutenant, Reflector Mage, Knight of the White Orchid), get the ETB effect... could be fun! I know Stasis Snare is harder to cast than Silkwrap, but it's a no-nonsense removal that can be flashed in at key moments. Another thing most people don't consider is that it can target Reality Smasher without being hit by the discard clause, because it's not a spell. Most players I've played against who run Reality Smasher think it's spell or ability, but it's not.
Something to consider as a possible funny interaction... Stasis Snare is a good card to hold up to protect Always Watching against Dromoka's Command. Imagine they cast Dromoka's Command, perhaps wanting to fight one of your creatures and make you sacrifice an enchantment. In response, flash in Stasis Snare, target your own creature they are fighting, sac it to Dromoka's Command while blanking their fight, get your creature back, if it has an ETB effect (Thalia's Lieutenant, Reflector Mage, Knight of the White Orchid), get the ETB effect... could be fun! I know Stasis Snare is harder to cast than Silkwrap, but it's a no-nonsense removal that can be flashed in at key moments. Another thing most people don't consider is that it can target Reality Smasher without being hit by the discard clause, because it's not a spell. Most players I've played against who run Reality Smasher think it's spell or ability, but it's not.
Whenever Reality Smasher becomes the target of a spell an opponent controls
Stasis Snare is an enchantment, so by the time it targets a Reality Smasher it is no longer a spell but a permanent, so the targeting is an ability. Since Reality Smasher does not say "target spell or ability" you do not have to discard.
I don't think allies has enough synergy to warp your deck around slightly worse creatures. The aggressive creatures in White and Green (and Reflector Mage) are better than most of the allies and have a better payoff.
Tireless Tracker is crazy good and helps you in the inevitable board stalls and after board wipes. I'm still at 6 1 drops though I'm considering changing Dragon Hunter into Thraben Inspector.
Militia Captain wasn't worth keeping in the main but is still really good against some decks, so I put it into the sideboard. Dragonslayer has also been pretty good out of the board in certain spots.
Edit: as for GW Company I'll admit that I'm not that big of a fan of the Deathmist/Protector package. It's been pretty clunky whenever I tried it and I found that I just wanted Thalia's Lieutenant and Hangarback Walker more. Josh Silvestri posted a list for it here where he suspects the same thing that I do.
Keep in mind that these are only initial reactions though, since I haven't put in as much time on that deck as I have on pure aggressive human decks.
I know you kind of say it in your post, but is this build basically an aggro deck? Or does it have the ability to slow up and be more tempo/midrange-y?
It's primarily aggressive, but Tireless Tracker and Archangel + Sigarda can both help you grind out games where you can't just beat face and call it a day.
I'm also considering taking it even further in that direction by swapping out Dragon Hunters for Thraben Inspectors. We'll see.
Emberflux you need to consider having Archangel of Tithes and/or Dragonlord Ojutai in your sideboard. There are so many decks running Radiant Flames, Kozilek's Return, Languish, or Flaying Tendrils. I have tested your version of the deck thoroughly and I can tell you turn 3 and turn 4 board wipes are going to crush your soul. Your only answer is 4 negates that you have to keep mana open for.
I have found that on turn 5 we find it easy to keep the mana open for Negate but prior to that our board is in a tricky spot. Here is what I find with this kind of deck. Against the control decks that run come into play tapped lands we rock them first game because we literally play so many creatures they can't stabilize. Game 2 specifically they got a great chance of staying ahead of you with removal.
I have moved two Ojutai and one Archangel into the main deck and I find I can still pressure them early while holding a game winning Ojutai.
Edit* I have also found 3 negates main board do wonders. It helps against CoCo, removal, planewalkers and I even have negated G/r's ramp cards. I think the negates work well to get us there.
It is true that my version tends to over commit thus becoming vulnerable to certain board wipes; however, it's been relatively easy to get my creatures' toughness to 3 which, as you know, isn't in range of Tendrils or Kozilek's. In the many, many games I've also played - no job atm - I haven't been affected by a board wipe to the point where I instantly concede. The fact of the matter is I generate big bodies rather quickly - I'm looking at you Incited Rabble - and my opponents usually end up catching maybe 1 or 2 of my guys, if any. Languish, Outburst, and Chandra are the only threats I fear and if I can't hold mana open for Negate by then, I'd probably lose anyways. It surprises me that you don't feel the same way I do considering you've tested this exact version.
I've played a little over 30 games with this version in particular and it's been absolute powerhouse. I feel that everything in the mainboard just clicks. I admit that my sideboard still needs work and quite frankly - as stupid as it sounds - I often wonder if boarding out cards is even worth it. What I mean is, we shouldn't stray too much from our original gameplan of aggression and that means not diluting our deck with too many noncreatures/nonhuman spells.
As for Ojutai, Archangel, and Avacyn... a lot of these decks that run black removal also run cards that make me sacrifice a creature and if I'm at that point of the game where he's killed every creature left and right, it's just not feasible to have an expensive bomb do nothing except lower my consistency - I rather have an Anafenza in my opening hand. It may be personal preference but I really believe having a consistent and fast early game is the best strategy to win.
Cheers to Negate stranger and thanks for picking my brain!
While i really like gideon in the sb you have to make a choice. Kytheon in the deck or no kytheon. I chose keeping kytheon and put ojutai in the board. I've never switched back because ojutai has been less vunerable to removal in my experience. I really want to bring them in vs bw control/midrange and gideon dies about as frequently as ojutai and has trouble being stalled by tokens. That said gideon is a fantastic sb or even mainboard card, just drop the kytheon. Another note, you should really try out eerie interlude over negate. You are running stasis snare and if you threw ojutai's command back in, it would be easy to bluff or just leave up without too much downside. It is often better for dealing with chandra (and other boardwhipes) than negate since sometimes their own creatures are caught in the whipe and you get new etb triggers. Finally i'm interested in how dont think taking out consol's lieutenant works out. I don't think it is the right call, but it seems to make more sense in your list because you have so many 1 drops to go with anafenza. Let us know if that permanent toughness boost is worth it. Overal I like your list. It shows quite a bit of thought.
Yeah after testing Gideon some more, he might not be as necessary as I originally thought he’d be. Having 2 Gideon’s is detrimental and I made this decision to include him before I found out how easy it became to flip Kytheon.
I also think I may have been rash in removing Ojutai's Command fom the board. It could help me more than Gideon against Rakdos Midrange and Jund which are my worst match ups because of all of their removal and Kolaghan's Command and Goblin Dark-Dwellers. If I could catch a Dark-dwellers with Ojutai's and bring back a creature, that'd be huge for me. I originally advocated running multiples of this card and will likely go back to running 2-3.
I don’t have too much to say about Stasis Snare yet because 90% of the time I’m the aggressor and usually have a creature big enough to go through their threat. Having more non-creature spells only reduces my chances of creating a big body. I see it most useful in the mirror and against UR Bounce (can’t let TITI or Jace activate).
I’ve tested Eerie Interlude before and wasn’t too impressed. Negate is a catch-all that’s useful in just about every match up we hate. Lastly it costs 1 more to cast than negate and it unflips my Incited Rabbles which is one of my strongest cards in the deck. I suggest you try him out if you haven’t already.
As for Consul’s, he’s been too slow and fragile in my experience. There were those few games where his 3rd ability finally did something but more often than not he was no better than a Savannah Lion which is exactly why I replaced him with the latter. As you said, having more one drops only strengthens Anafenza and even better, Kytheon – whom I’ve been able to consistently flip on turn 3 which usually means I’ve won.
Anafenza is easily one of the strongest cards in the deck. When she has lived past turn 2, it’s usually too much value for my opponent to handle. I cannot stress enough how important she has been for winning. If you’re wondering about synergy, it’s not like Thalia’s Lieutenant doesn’t get anything out of coming into the battlefield.
Thanks for the feedback!
Here’s my list after taking all of your suggestions and my recent games into consideration.
You might notice I took out Lantern Scout. I finally got a lot of games in with RDW and I came to the conclusion that I don't need this guy. I found myself pressuring it more than it pressured me. Again, Dwellers was a pain to deal with so I think Ojutai's is the right tech and gaining 4 life can certainly be relevant. This also means I have to say farewell to Expedition Envoy and hello to the much better Savannah Lion, Dragon Hunter.
Stratus Dancer looks very promising and since I have 3 flex spots in the sideboard I figure why not test him out. At worst he's a 2/1 body with evasion.
I hope you all enjoyed the read! Looking forward to continuing the discussion.
4x Archangel of Tithes
4x Dragon Hunter
3x Expedition Envoy
2x Hanweir Militia Captain
1x Hidden Dragonslayer
4x Knight of the White Orchid
2x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4x Reflector Mage
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
1x Island
1x Meandering River
11x Plains
4x Port Town
4x Prairie Stream
1x Westvale Abbey
Instant (2)
2x Eerie Interlude
Sorcery (4)
4x Declaration in Stone
Enchantment (4)
4x Always Watching
1x Celestial Flare
4x Cleric of the Forward Order
3x Felidar Cub
3x Negate
2x Stasis Snare
2x Surge of Righteousness
I've been staying away from 2-4 Dragonlord Ojutai because I want to keep the deck more aggressive, and I don't own any.
I would like to have Consul's Lieutenant in the deck, but don't have a roster spot for him.
My sideboard feels pretty good, but I can't decide between a few things:
i bought 2x...
i think it makes the deck all better late game....if it does go late...
Go with something close to BBD's build.
lightwalker main deck
akroan jailer sideboard
dromoka dunecaster sideboard
arashin foremost ?????? not sure
herald of dromoka possible with other warriors
I don't think any of these have a high enough power level to be worth a slot, to be honest. Lightwalker is below rate and only combos with Thalia's Lieutenant. Akroan Jailer does literally nothing on offense or defense and requires 3 mana a turn to turn something off. It's much easier to use that 3 mana to cast a single Stasis Snare and get rid of the problem permanently (essentially). Dunecaster is the same, with the added bonus of not being able to attack ever. Arashin Foremost is the most interesting, but the best humans aren't warriors so both it and Herald are way too low impact to bother.
So you have 8 cards (of which you need two on the field at any given time) to keep your creatures alive? You also need 6 mana to cast Angelic Purge and Eerie Interlude in the same turn, assuming your opponent doesn't have a way to screw with you.
I don't think Avacyn is good in this deck and I hate cards that require me to play other cards to make them playable when there are other, just as powerful, options for the same CMC.
Silvestri also says that Avacyn isn't worth it over Sigarda.
Edit: Added some more cards to the primer (Ojutai, some Green creatures and counters).
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
She's really not that good in this deck. You are an aggressive deck, and playing to have a turn 5 flash blocker is so low upside in comparison to the extreme downfall of your opponent flipping her intentionally to wipe your board. Regardless of what cards you are running in your deck that keep your team from dying, you are looking at dream situations and ignoring the situations where you don't have a fifth land, or you don't have two, or they kill your guy in response to Avacyn's indestructible trigger. Then there are those situations where you have a full board and can't break through and you either hold Avacyn or put your team at risk. Is Avacyn a great card? Absolutely. Does she belong in W/x Humans? Absolutely not. She is NOT the top end of a weenie deck because she Wrathsyour board. She is easily the best white card in the set, but she is NOT meant for this deck, because more often then not, she will be a risk with not enough upside, especially in a world where the opposing Wrath effects are Languish.
a few good human cards?
sigarda + dragonlord ojutai + tithes and avacyn? crazy fliers...
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
4 bygone bishop
4 Sylvan advocate
4 tireless tracker
4 deathmist raptor
4 den protector
3 duskwatch recruiter
3 hidden dragonslayer
2 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 collected company
4 dromoka's command
Land
1 westvale abbey
4 canopy Vista
4 fortified village
3 evolving wilds
7 forest
5 Plains
3x Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4x Expedition Envoy
4x Knight of the White Orchid
3x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4x Reflector Mage
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
4x Thraben Inspector
4x Town Gossipmonger
4x Declaration in Stone
Enchantment: (4)
4x Always Watching
Land: (22)
2x Island
12x Plains
4x Port Town
4x Prairie Stream
2x Felidar Cub
3x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3x Lantern Scout
4x Negate
3x Stasis Snare
As you could probably already tell, I removed my 4 and 5 drop bombs along with Consul's and Land. I replaced them with Anafenza, Inspector, Gossipmonger, and an extra Kytheon for a completely aggressive approach. The reason for these changes is because I feel that we have access the most aggressive synergy in the format. Anafenza, Always Watching, and Thalia's Lieutenant all have one thing in common; they reward having multiple 1 drops in your hand to be as aggressive possible. Lastly, having a lower curve means less lands are needed and Knight has been excellent in fixing any poor mana situations. Below you'll find some more depth for these changes.
Mainboard Changes:
++Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit: I'm not entirely sure why we need non-human bombs that skews our curve when we have something that can be just as impactful at an earlier stage of the game! It's been really fun casting him Turn 2 then following it up with 3 one drops on Turn 3. In a way he's like another Thalia's Lieutenant! I originally had him at 2 but since I removed Consul's I want to have him out on Turn 2 as often as he gets removed - which is almost always for a good reason.
++Thraben Inspector: I took for granted his value and durability. He also becomes so much stronger with Anafenza in the deck because most of our creatures have a toughness of two so we can easily make one of our lords - such as Anafenza herself - be able to survive Tendrils and Kozilek's which is huge in my eyes. Ultimately, I have 11 ways to make him a durable 2/3 which has been more threatening than a fragile 3/2 that also doesn't give me draw power - which we really lack in the deck.
++Town Gossipmonger: Before trying him out I thought he was too slow in a deck that needs to be aggressive but I was wrong. It has been more rewarding flipping him on Turn 2 than being unable to efficiently attack with a 1 drop because I'm facing a 2/3 - damn you Sylvan Advocate - or an icey wall - I hate you Thing in the Ice. As crazy as it sounds, flipping him has totally been worth the sacrifice of a turn. He becomes a beefy human with a built-in mana sink which is superb in the same way Thraben is (value). His biggest downside is when he gets bounced to my hand.
--Consul's Lieutenant: I rarely got to make use of his 3rd ability and between Anafenza and him, Anafenza was always better to play on Turn 2. Overall I felt he was too slow and his first strike has been more relevant than his other 2 abilities. I might be wrong in removing another potential 'lord' so I'll keep testing.
Sideboard Changes:
++Gideon, Ally of Zendikar: His spot could just as easily have been Tithes, Avacyn, or Dragonlord Ojutai but those all fall prey to the same thing (removal/board wipes). Against decks with a lot of creature removal and board wipes I usually side these bad boys in along with Negate and it's been extremely potent. His modes are all relevant and although he produces non-human tokens, it serves as a semi-eternal attacker/blocker and helps me go wide.
--Ojutai's Command: The card is undeniably strong but Gideon has been better in its slot and the latter has more synergy with our deck.
Maybecards:
Stratus Dancer
Hidden Dragonslayer
Thanks for reading!
GBRJund Elves
GWDevoted Elves
WDeath & Taxes
GWUBRHumans
EDH:
GTitania, Protector of Argoth
I have found that on turn 5 we find it easy to keep the mana open for Negate but prior to that our board is in a tricky spot. Here is what I find with this kind of deck. Against the control decks that run come into play tapped lands we rock them first game because we literally play so many creatures they can't stabilize. Game 2 specifically they got a great chance of staying ahead of you with removal.
I have moved two Ojutai and one Archangel into the main deck and I find I can still pressure them early while holding a game winning Ojutai.
Edit* I have also found 3 negates main board do wonders. It helps against CoCo, removal, planewalkers and I even have negated G/r's ramp cards. I think the negates work well to get us there.
reasons i use lightwalker, herald and formost is due to my thinking of odric in deck to share abilities
Not sure how it pans out over other angel, dragon and splashes but was thinking ordic makes the deck more adaptable
jailer is not near as good as an older tapper soldier, but being able to tap some big baddie before it stomps a mudhole in you with 3 mana till you can draw that removal isnt the worst
Allies/Humans:
W
Lantern Scout
Expedition Envoy
GW
Veteran Warleader
Allies:
G
Sylvan Advocate
Beastcaller Savant
Humans:
W
Dragon Hunter
Thraben Inspector
Kytheon, Hero of Akros
Thalia's Lieutenant
Knight of the White Orchid
G
Duskwatch Recruiter
Tireless Tracker
WU
Reflector Mage
Blue also adds negate, ojutai, and essence flux
Green adds dromoka's command, coco, and pulse of murasa in the side board (though u might not need with lantern scout)
And if you move more towards ally synergy, Gideon and his oath gets a lot better, though you lose out on always watching synergy. Thoughts?
On a separate note, this is my current GW list:
4 Canopy Vista
4 Fortified Village
2 Westvale Abbey
12 Plains
2 Forest
Creatures (28)
4 Dragon Hunter
2 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Consul's Lieutenant
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Archangel of Tithes
2 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
2 Silkwrap
3 Always Watching
3 Declaration in Stone
3 Surge of Righteousness
4 Eerie Interlude
1 Silkwrap
2 Felidar Cub
2 Hidden Dragonslayer
3 Hanweir Militia Captain
Tireless Tracker is crazy good and helps you in the inevitable board stalls and after board wipes. I'm still at 6 1 drops though I'm considering changing Dragon Hunter into Thraben Inspector.
Militia Captain wasn't worth keeping in the main but is still really good against some decks, so I put it into the sideboard. Dragonslayer has also been pretty good out of the board in certain spots.
Edit: as for GW Company I'll admit that I'm not that big of a fan of the Deathmist/Protector package. It's been pretty clunky whenever I tried it and I found that I just wanted Thalia's Lieutenant and Hangarback Walker more. Josh Silvestri posted a list for it here where he suspects the same thing that I do.
Keep in mind that these are only initial reactions though, since I haven't put in as much time on that deck as I have on pure aggressive human decks.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
3x Archangel of Tithes
2x Consul's Lieutenant
4x Dragon Hunter
4x Knight of the White Orchid
2x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
4x Thraben Inspector
2x Island
12x Plains
4x Port Town
4x Prairie Stream
2x Westvale Abbey
4x Always Watching
I think I want to take out two creatures for either negate silkwrap or essence flux main board any suggestions?
snare and silk warp both opponents creatures fyi
No you don't. Reality Smasher says
Stasis Snare is an enchantment, so by the time it targets a Reality Smasher it is no longer a spell but a permanent, so the targeting is an ability. Since Reality Smasher does not say "target spell or ability" you do not have to discard.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
I know you kind of say it in your post, but is this build basically an aggro deck? Or does it have the ability to slow up and be more tempo/midrange-y?
I'm also considering taking it even further in that direction by swapping out Dragon Hunters for Thraben Inspectors. We'll see.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
It is true that my version tends to over commit thus becoming vulnerable to certain board wipes; however, it's been relatively easy to get my creatures' toughness to 3 which, as you know, isn't in range of Tendrils or Kozilek's. In the many, many games I've also played - no job atm - I haven't been affected by a board wipe to the point where I instantly concede. The fact of the matter is I generate big bodies rather quickly - I'm looking at you Incited Rabble - and my opponents usually end up catching maybe 1 or 2 of my guys, if any. Languish, Outburst, and Chandra are the only threats I fear and if I can't hold mana open for Negate by then, I'd probably lose anyways. It surprises me that you don't feel the same way I do considering you've tested this exact version.
I've played a little over 30 games with this version in particular and it's been absolute powerhouse. I feel that everything in the mainboard just clicks. I admit that my sideboard still needs work and quite frankly - as stupid as it sounds - I often wonder if boarding out cards is even worth it. What I mean is, we shouldn't stray too much from our original gameplan of aggression and that means not diluting our deck with too many noncreatures/nonhuman spells.
As for Ojutai, Archangel, and Avacyn... a lot of these decks that run black removal also run cards that make me sacrifice a creature and if I'm at that point of the game where he's killed every creature left and right, it's just not feasible to have an expensive bomb do nothing except lower my consistency - I rather have an Anafenza in my opening hand. It may be personal preference but I really believe having a consistent and fast early game is the best strategy to win.
Cheers to Negate stranger and thanks for picking my brain!
Yeah after testing Gideon some more, he might not be as necessary as I originally thought he’d be. Having 2 Gideon’s is detrimental and I made this decision to include him before I found out how easy it became to flip Kytheon.
I also think I may have been rash in removing Ojutai's Command fom the board. It could help me more than Gideon against Rakdos Midrange and Jund which are my worst match ups because of all of their removal and Kolaghan's Command and Goblin Dark-Dwellers. If I could catch a Dark-dwellers with Ojutai's and bring back a creature, that'd be huge for me. I originally advocated running multiples of this card and will likely go back to running 2-3.
I don’t have too much to say about Stasis Snare yet because 90% of the time I’m the aggressor and usually have a creature big enough to go through their threat. Having more non-creature spells only reduces my chances of creating a big body. I see it most useful in the mirror and against UR Bounce (can’t let TITI or Jace activate).
I’ve tested Eerie Interlude before and wasn’t too impressed. Negate is a catch-all that’s useful in just about every match up we hate. Lastly it costs 1 more to cast than negate and it unflips my Incited Rabbles which is one of my strongest cards in the deck. I suggest you try him out if you haven’t already.
As for Consul’s, he’s been too slow and fragile in my experience. There were those few games where his 3rd ability finally did something but more often than not he was no better than a Savannah Lion which is exactly why I replaced him with the latter. As you said, having more one drops only strengthens Anafenza and even better, Kytheon – whom I’ve been able to consistently flip on turn 3 which usually means I’ve won.
Anafenza is easily one of the strongest cards in the deck. When she has lived past turn 2, it’s usually too much value for my opponent to handle. I cannot stress enough how important she has been for winning. If you’re wondering about synergy, it’s not like Thalia’s Lieutenant doesn’t get anything out of coming into the battlefield.
Thanks for the feedback!
Here’s my list after taking all of your suggestions and my recent games into consideration.
3x Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4x Dragon Hunter
4x Knight of the White Orchid
3x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4x Reflector Mage
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
4x Thraben Inspector
4x Town Gossipmonger
4x Declaration in Stone
Enchantment: (4)
4x Always Watching
Land: (22)
2x Island
12x Plains
4x Port Town
4x Prairie Stream
2x Felidar Cub
3x Ojutai’s Command
3x Stratus Dancer *testing*
4x Negate
3x Stasis Snare
You might notice I took out Lantern Scout. I finally got a lot of games in with RDW and I came to the conclusion that I don't need this guy. I found myself pressuring it more than it pressured me. Again, Dwellers was a pain to deal with so I think Ojutai's is the right tech and gaining 4 life can certainly be relevant. This also means I have to say farewell to Expedition Envoy and hello to the much better Savannah Lion, Dragon Hunter.
Stratus Dancer looks very promising and since I have 3 flex spots in the sideboard I figure why not test him out. At worst he's a 2/1 body with evasion.
I hope you all enjoyed the read! Looking forward to continuing the discussion.
GBRJund Elves
GWDevoted Elves
WDeath & Taxes
GWUBRHumans
EDH:
GTitania, Protector of Argoth