It's a pretty low-impact play after the Languish though.
Fair point, but that one extra turn it affords us before Languish hits could easily be the difference in the game. Besides, Languish is usually a 2 or 3-of post board against us. Making them spend their mana inefficiently is never a bad thing.
It could be worth testing out. T3 is the turn you want to be casting Always Watching though, and the Wingmare depreciates quite a bit faster after that then the other options at 3 or more mana.
T3 is the turn you want to be casting Always Watching though
Eh, not always. If you go 1 drop->2 drop->AW sometimes you just aren't putting a fast enough clock on them. I prefer to wait until turn 4ish to get some more threats out on the board.
T3 is the turn you want to be casting Always Watching though
Eh, not always. If you go 1 drop->2 drop->AW sometimes you just aren't putting a fast enough clock on them. I prefer to wait until turn 4ish to get some more threats out on the board.
Agreed. It seems like putting 3-4 threats out prior to Always Watching is the point you can really start taking over the game. Wingmare could definitely be part of that equation.
I've been toying with the Bant Humans idea since it had moderate success for a couple pilots at the Pro Tour, so I decided to play it at FNM tonight. Here's the list I ran:
Round 1: Grixis Tokens(?), W 2-0
He didn't get time to do much of anything as I curved out perfectly both games. His deck just wasn't capable of keeping up.
Round 2: B/W Midrange, L 0-2
This one was entirely due to mana screw. Game one I had all green splash cards and only blue splash mana. I didn't find Knight of the White Orchid until the turn before he attacked for lethal. Game 2 I kept a 1-land hand full of gas...then didn't draw another land until it was basically over. Variance at it's finest. This got me questioning the mana base a bit.
Round 3: W/G Enchantments, L 1-2
I was unprepared for a deck like this. The kid was packing 16+ removal enchantments in the deck (Silkwrap, Stasis Snare, Pacifism, Bound by Moonsilver, Quarantine Field...and those are just the ones I saw) plus 4 Starfields and 4 Sigil of the Empty Throne. Definitely a deck built to prey on Humans and Bant Company. I sided in Dromoka's Commands, and that helped but it wasn't enough. Seems like it would be a fun deck to take to FNM though.
Round 4: G/R Werewolves, W 2-0
I was paired down on this one and faced basically a draft deck full of all the common werewolves in the set. It really wasn't a fair fight and I almost felt bad. Almost.
All in all, the deck was fun but inconsistent. The mana isn't great and is the main reason I won't be playing this variant next week. It's really hard to balance the need for fast, consistent mana and 3 colors without Evolving Wilds, and that's not a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
Also, not having Always Watching really hurt on multiple occasions. I could have easily won the W/G Enchantments match with just one anthem effect as I took him down to 8-10 life both times before he stabilized.
I think it would be best to choose either a green OR blue splash if you're going to use one at all. On the games I curved out and hit my land drops perfectly, it ran beautifully and felt like the fast aggro deck Humans should be. Company was awesome each time I cast it, but often felt like a win-more card than an integral part of the deck. Ultimately though, the deck is much more inconsistent and sensitive to variance than the single-splash versions.
Yeah, manabases right now are nowhere near as good as we've been having it recently. Two color is tricky for aggro- though doable- but I wouldn't dream of trying aggro tricolor except for maybe the Tarkir wedges (Two painlands + showlands means a lot of easy untaps) or two color plus C.
It's the reason my own green splash is so very light: when one wants to be consistent, if your mana screws up, you want as few dead cards as possible.
Completely agree...now I just have to choose a splash color lol.
So it seems like Humans can still top 8 a Grand Prix. I'm super interested by this white/black list, though. When looking at black as a splash color, you usually think Duress or maybe Zulaport Cutthroat. But Takaya Saito seems to be in it just for Anguished Unmaking. Why? What is so important to hit that he needs four of it in the board?
Literally anything. It's a fix all that can win you the game or just extra removal. I do like the 2 vents in mb as well they do ETB tapped but back up plan/extra life never hurts. And you don't lose that much consistency with a light splash so it's more of a 'Why not' than a 'Why'.
Any thoughts or tips on tweaking this deck. It's a deck far outside of my norm (being a control player most of the time) so any tips would be greatly appreciated.
Private Mod Note
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Currently Playing:
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
You have 20 lands and 10 4 and 5 drops, not enough land for this and it's too many 4/5 drops.
Here's my first go through for a swap from my very light black splash over to a nice green splash for the format warping card that is CoCo. And since I'm green how about that 2 drop human that's also a warrior, oh and D.Command.
Played UW Humans to a 9-5-1 finish at GP NY. Lost my last round to miss a pro point. My five losses were all to GW tokens or Rites combo. Went 2-2 vs GW overall and 0-3 vs Rites. I'll do a detailed write up tomorrow, but the short story is that my sideboard was awful vs Rites (only 2 Gryff's Boon in my 75).
So it seems like Humans can still top 8 a Grand Prix. I'm super interested by this white/black list, though. When looking at black as a splash color, you usually think Duress or maybe Zulaport Cutthroat. But Takaya Saito seems to be in it just for Anguished Unmaking. Why? What is so important to hit that he needs four of it in the board?
So it seems like Humans can still top 8 a Grand Prix. I'm super interested by this white/black list, though. When looking at black as a splash color, you usually think Duress or maybe Zulaport Cutthroat. But Takaya Saito seems to be in it just for Anguished Unmaking. Why? What is so important to hit that he needs four of it in the board?
This build is more suited to have a game against more control attrition based matchups. Instead of having a eerie interlude to protect you against sweepers, post-board you combat their sweepers with Gideon and Shambling vents and their PW with Anguised Unmaking.
Going forward, this looks like a way to have a chance when Humans get into the mid and late game.
I do like the idea of something like that. It is intriguing to basically fight fire with fire against those types of decks. I could even see a couple Duress making it into the mainboard to give us better game 1's. The only thing that worries me is the potential of tapped lands, though I think the benefits outweigh potential downsides.
Played UW Humans to a 9-5-1 finish at GP NY. Lost my last round to miss a pro point. My five losses were all to GW tokens or Rites combo. Went 2-2 vs GW overall and 0-3 vs Rites. I'll do a detailed write up tomorrow, but the short story is that my sideboard was awful vs Rites (only 2 Gryff's Boon in my 75).
I'm interested to hear about your experience. I've been playing around with a W/U list myself, trying to replicate as much aggression from the mono-white archetype while maintaining the tempo gains from Reflector Mage and the countermagic from the board.
I played UW Humans in States and have been on-off the deck since. The mono-white version of the deck is clearly faster and that typically translates to being more able to punish slow starts. UW plays more of a tempo game between Archangel of Tithes and Reflector Mage, which is hard to do successfully when the has shifted such that decks either aren't running too many creatures (WB/Esper Control), or are minimally affected by having their creatures bounced (Bant, Mono-White Humans, GB Aristocrats, 4C Rites). Even ramp decks aren't running many fatties that buy us tempo.
I love Archangel of Tithes, but a lot of decks can easily answer her (ultimate price in particular) and she doesn't present as much of a clock without Always Watching.
If I had to venture a guess as to why UW has been moved away from, I'd say it has to do with Negate and creature-size: if we have the negate, we're golden, but what's our follow-up if we don't? Mono-white usually can afford to sandbag at least two threats, but our typical curve doesn't let us do that - we have to play bigger creatures that get removed just as easily, which stifles our ability to apply pressure consistently.
Given that, I still think that UW Humans has a place in the meta, but I think results show that an aggressive lean is more consistent than a value-approached with Dragonlord Ojutai.
I played this deck to a 2-3 finish at an IQ. Unfortunately I ran into a lot of Mardu Control, but I think the principles it tries to use are sound. I'd probably try to push the Reflector Mages to the board for more one drops, while also making room in the board for more Gideons and Secure the Wastes, as well as possibly Gryff's Boon. Would love more feedback, but I think that's where we start.
Tl;dr: we're maybe a turn slower than mono-White, but we can fix that.
So it seems like Humans can still top 8 a Grand Prix. I'm super interested by this white/black list, though. When looking at black as a splash color, you usually think Duress or maybe Zulaport Cutthroat. But Takaya Saito seems to be in it just for Anguished Unmaking. Why? What is so important to hit that he needs four of it in the board?
So it seems like Humans can still top 8 a Grand Prix. I'm super interested by this white/black list, though. When looking at black as a splash color, you usually think Duress or maybe Zulaport Cutthroat. But Takaya Saito seems to be in it just for Anguished Unmaking. Why? What is so important to hit that he needs four of it in the board?
This build is more suited to have a game against more control attrition based matchups. Instead of having a eerie interlude to protect you against sweepers, post-board you combat their sweepers with Gideon and Shambling vents and their PW with Anguised Unmaking.
Going forward, this looks like a way to have a chance when Humans get into the mid and late game.
I do like the idea of something like that. It is intriguing to basically fight fire with fire against those types of decks. I could even see a couple Duress making it into the mainboard to give us better game 1's. The only thing that worries me is the potential of tapped lands, though I think the benefits outweigh potential downsides.
Having tapped lands also worried me, so I took the deck for a spin on Cockatrice. There are only 2 tapped lands in the maindeck, so from my experience this is a non-issue for this aggro deck. I hardly mulled coz of tapped lands in my opener.
The funny thing is that the side-board plan is kinda transformative. Against midrangy/control decks, you can side in the full package of Gideons, Anguished Unmaking, the other Shambling Vents and Secure the Wastes to become this grindy midrange deck with 8 of the best removal spells in town. Finish the long-game with an EOT Secure the wastes and a Gideon Emblem.
Also agree that testing a Duress or two would be nice.
There is one thing I do not understand; maybe it is coz of my inexperience with the deck. Which matchups do we bring in Hanweir Militia Captain? Bant?
I appreciate your analysis and testing of the W/B version, I definitely think it has potential moving forward. I'm also glad the tapped lands didn't impact the deck's overall strategy.
A transformative sideboard strategy could be really effective. I think part of the reason the number of Humans decks has fallen off us because they're predictable and straightforward. You know what to expect when you go against a Humans deck. I like it.
As for Hanweir Militia Captain, you want to side it in against anyone who, as Craig Wescoe put it, isn't aggressively wiping your board. The Captain is all about board presence. Once it flips it continually buffs Thalia's Lieutenant with the tokens at each end step, plus they get buffed by any additional Lieutenants. Probably good against Bant, Tokens (unless they're running Tragic Arrogance), and any other creature strategy.
I played UW Humans in States and have been on-off the deck since. The mono-white version of the deck is clearly faster and that typically translates to being more able to punish slow starts. UW plays more of a tempo game between Archangel of Tithes and Reflector Mage, which is hard to do successfully when the has shifted such that decks either aren't running too many creatures (WB/Esper Control), or are minimally affected by having their creatures bounced (Bant, Mono-White Humans, GB Aristocrats, 4C Rites). Even ramp decks aren't running many fatties that buy us tempo.
I love Archangel of Tithes, but a lot of decks can easily answer her (ultimate price in particular) and she doesn't present as much of a clock without Always Watching.
If I had to venture a guess as to why UW has been moved away from, I'd say it has to do with Negate and creature-size: if we have the negate, we're golden, but what's our follow-up if we don't? Mono-white usually can afford to sandbag at least two threats, but our typical curve doesn't let us do that - we have to play bigger creatures that get removed just as easily, which stifles our ability to apply pressure consistently.
Given that, I still think that UW Humans has a place in the meta, but I think results show that an aggressive lean is more consistent than a value-approached with Dragonlord Ojutai.
I played this deck to a 2-3 finish at an IQ. Unfortunately I ran into a lot of Mardu Control, but I think the principles it tries to use are sound. I'd probably try to push the Reflector Mages to the board for more one drops, while also making room in the board for more Gideons and Secure the Wastes, as well as possibly Gryff's Boon. Would love more feedback, but I think that's where we start.
Tl;dr: we're maybe a turn slower than mono-White, but we can fix that.
I agree about the W/U list needing to be more aggressive. Here's the list I'm planning on running at my next FNM:
After seeing the recent results, the one thing I loved about the W/B list from this past weekend was the main deck Gideons. I think that card is very difficult for many decks to deal with effectively, especially Bant Company and G/W Tokens.
I really like this idea, you're able to transform your gameplan by adding lands to support your 4 drops, but you gain a late game mana sink and additional threats that you don't have to trade your entire board state for.
I agree with his premise of not including spells of the off-color, simply because the mana is still too tight to cast reliably, but I'm not sure which color is a better addition. The lifegain from Shambling Vent could be really significant vs. the additional aggression from Needle Spires.
I like his sideboard guide a lot, it seems to mirror my vague ideas with a much higher degree of specificity. Definitely a great blueprint to start with, Karsten is extremely thorough in his analyses.
After having an off night (although I did beat Esper Control 2-0, the second game long and hard fought, and won a game in the other matches and got close to victory) I have revised my W/R Humans deck. Any input would be appreciated.
I've been doing really well with this deck in competitive leagues, currently 30-11-0. For a while I was on a streak -- 21-2 at one point. It's basically mono-white, with gideon instead of always watching and blue for reflector mage and sideboard counterspells. Those 1 mana counters win me a lot of games. Countering a Coco or Languish normally ends the game on the spot.
The reason to run gideon over always watching is that you can't add too many non-threats to the deck, or it stops working well. Gideon lets you keep in some number of "always watching" effects, also have counterspells, and also keep the threat count high. He's either solid against most decks, or amazing. It seems weird to me that more people aren't running him.
Your worst matchup is decks that run creatures AND sweepers. That makes boarding difficult, but I think it's best in those cases to just forget the sorcery counterspells and play around the sweepers. Dispel might be good at beating point removal instead.
Decks with only kalitas as a creature can be tough. You have to keep in some number of bad spells against those decks (declaration or reflector) because kalitas will take over a game if you can't make them immediately chump with him. Sometimes you draw the spell and they don't draw kalitas, and you lose because you "took a mulligan", or they draw kalitas and you don't have the removal spell.
The mirror is tricky, it always seems to come down to a race. Just fly in and try to gain some life.
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
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I made a few tweaks after FNM that I haven't tested yet. Every single time I ever boarded I removed all 4 Town Gossipmonger so I have removed those from the next version of the deck. In addition I felt Hanweir Militia Captain and Collected Company were allstars every time they were seen (I wasn't sure if I wanted 4 CoCo in a low curve aggro list, I do), so they've been upped to 4. I've also added a 23rd land (I mulliganed A LOT it seems) and a single Kytheon. I'll be trying out the new list this Wednesday to see how it goes.
Seems like a pretty decent combination of the Humans and Bant Company decks. I really really want to cast Profaner of the Dead against Tokens, seems like a good time lol. I think that the format has slowed enough to make this deck pretty effective.
I feel that more human list are gravitating towards midrange decks like Yuuya Watanabe Bant Humans. I choose to go back to the pure aggro route with 18 one-drops and 11 "anthem" effects. Against control we switch up the game plan: bring in secure the wastes, an extra Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, up the land count with 2 extra Shambling Vent and more interaction with Duress and Anguished Unmaking to take out hate cards, instant speed exile Ormendahl, Profane Prince and Planewalkers.
Will let you know how it went.
Interested to see how things go for you, and I agree that there's a definite midrange push (as mentioned above, I'm playing Watanabe's deck tonight!). I'm torn between both strategies and tonight will help me decide which way I want to go. Good luck and I'll post some results too!
Seems like a pretty decent combination of the Humans and Bant Company decks. I really really want to cast Profaner of the Dead against Tokens, seems like a good time lol. I think that the format has slowed enough to make this deck pretty effective.
I actually threw this list together and played a few games with friends (against Brood Monitor Combo and an Eldrazi Company deck). It did alright, Lambholt Pacifist is actually a real offensive powerhouse provided you've got a way to pump it. This deck is certainly stronger in the mid game than any of the Human variations, but it gives up the explosiveness they had, and a lot of the time I found myself really missing the ability to punish awkward starts my opponents may have had.
Speaking of awkward starts this deck could have awkward mana at times, and also got it's ass royally handed to it by flyers, but those are typical problems the Bant Company deck's been suffering from.
I also found practically no use for Ojutai's Command, but then again I only played it once. Still, since this is a CoCo deck and we like to keep our creature density high this is probably at the top of the list to be cut for something else, maybe Citadel Castellan or something, or maybe bring back Declaration in Stone which, despite not being a creature, is straight removal that I found myself really missing a lot of the time.
I actually threw this list together and played a few games with friends (against Brood Monitor Combo and an Eldrazi Company deck). It did alright, Lambholt Pacifist is actually a real offensive powerhouse provided you've got a way to pump it. This deck is certainly stronger in the mid game than any of the Human variations, but it gives up the explosiveness they had, and a lot of the time I found myself really missing the ability to punish awkward starts my opponents may have had.
Speaking of awkward starts this deck could have awkward mana at times, and also got it's ass royally handed to it by flyers, but those are typical problems the Bant Company deck's been suffering from.
I also found practically no use for Ojutai's Command, but then again I only played it once. Still, since this is a CoCo deck and we like to keep our creature density high this is probably at the top of the list to be cut for something else, maybe Citadel Castellan or something, or maybe bring back Declaration in Stone which, despite not being a creature, is straight removal that I found myself really missing a lot of the time.
I really enjoyed playing the deck last night and went 3-1 with it, beating R/B Madness and Great Aurora Control before running into two consecutive Brood Monitor Combo decks. I lost to the first one because I didn't know how best to attack it (of course it didn't help that I got mana screwed the first game and he comboed off on turn 5 the second game because of Cryptolith Rite). I figured it out the second match though and won 2-0. The key in that matchup is to attack the combo pieces as aggressively as possible, especially Displacer. Ojutai's Command to counter Displacer and bring back Thalia's Lieutenant won me game 1 of the second match. It definitely has a place in the deck, but I could see moving it to the sideboard.
I'm going to make a few changes going forward. I agree that more direct removal is necessary, as well as something to address flyers. Gryff's Boon was also really good out of the board (Gryff's Boon returned from the graveyard onto an animated Gideon won me game 2 of the second match lol), but I never touched Profaner, Lantern Scout, or Sigarda. I'm thinking that the combination of Boon and Sigarda will assist against flyers, and Sigarda is a nice silver bullet against targeted removal decks. I don't have any Tokens in my local meta, so Profaner is out in favor of two Declaration in Stone. Lantern Scout really only comes in against burn and fast aggro, and that's minimal in my local meta too, so it's out for a third Declaration. I'm considering also swapping the 4th Tracker into the main deck for the 4th Dromoka's Command as I brought Tracker in almost every post-board game, but I'm going to hold off on that for now.
Overall, I think the deck is legitimate and flexible depending on the matchup. Tracker and Duskwatch Recruiter are essential for the longer matches, Clues are an awesome addition for those grindy games. Turn two Lambholt Pacifist into turn 3 Thalia's Lieutenant or Dromoka's Command is quite possibly the ideal start as it's impossible for Control to ignore and hard for aggro to keep up with. Definitely a great deck and I plan on continuing to play it moving forward.
Fair point, but that one extra turn it affords us before Languish hits could easily be the difference in the game. Besides, Languish is usually a 2 or 3-of post board against us. Making them spend their mana inefficiently is never a bad thing.
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq
Eh, not always. If you go 1 drop->2 drop->AW sometimes you just aren't putting a fast enough clock on them. I prefer to wait until turn 4ish to get some more threats out on the board.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Agreed. It seems like putting 3-4 threats out prior to Always Watching is the point you can really start taking over the game. Wingmare could definitely be part of that equation.
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq
4x Canopy Vista
4x Fortified Village
10x Plains
4x Port Town
1x Prairie Stream
Creatures (27)
4x Knight of the White Orchid
2x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4x Reflector Mage
1x Sigarda, Heron's Grace
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
4x Thraben Inspector
4x Tireless Tracker
4x Town Gossipmonger
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Spells (8)
4x Collected Company
4x Declaration in Stone
3x Den Protector
3x Dromoka's Command
2x Duskwatch Recruiter
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Hidden Dragonslayer
3x Negate
1x Sigarda, Heron's Grace
Round 1: Grixis Tokens(?), W 2-0
He didn't get time to do much of anything as I curved out perfectly both games. His deck just wasn't capable of keeping up.
Round 2: B/W Midrange, L 0-2
This one was entirely due to mana screw. Game one I had all green splash cards and only blue splash mana. I didn't find Knight of the White Orchid until the turn before he attacked for lethal. Game 2 I kept a 1-land hand full of gas...then didn't draw another land until it was basically over. Variance at it's finest. This got me questioning the mana base a bit.
Round 3: W/G Enchantments, L 1-2
I was unprepared for a deck like this. The kid was packing 16+ removal enchantments in the deck (Silkwrap, Stasis Snare, Pacifism, Bound by Moonsilver, Quarantine Field...and those are just the ones I saw) plus 4 Starfields and 4 Sigil of the Empty Throne. Definitely a deck built to prey on Humans and Bant Company. I sided in Dromoka's Commands, and that helped but it wasn't enough. Seems like it would be a fun deck to take to FNM though.
Round 4: G/R Werewolves, W 2-0
I was paired down on this one and faced basically a draft deck full of all the common werewolves in the set. It really wasn't a fair fight and I almost felt bad. Almost.
All in all, the deck was fun but inconsistent. The mana isn't great and is the main reason I won't be playing this variant next week. It's really hard to balance the need for fast, consistent mana and 3 colors without Evolving Wilds, and that's not a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
Also, not having Always Watching really hurt on multiple occasions. I could have easily won the W/G Enchantments match with just one anthem effect as I took him down to 8-10 life both times before he stabilized.
I think it would be best to choose either a green OR blue splash if you're going to use one at all. On the games I curved out and hit my land drops perfectly, it ran beautifully and felt like the fast aggro deck Humans should be. Company was awesome each time I cast it, but often felt like a win-more card than an integral part of the deck. Ultimately though, the deck is much more inconsistent and sensitive to variance than the single-splash versions.
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq
Completely agree...now I just have to choose a splash color lol.
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq
So it seems like Humans can still top 8 a Grand Prix. I'm super interested by this white/black list, though. When looking at black as a splash color, you usually think Duress or maybe Zulaport Cutthroat. But Takaya Saito seems to be in it just for Anguished Unmaking. Why? What is so important to hit that he needs four of it in the board?
Cube
Terricube
Modern
8Rack
Burn
Legacy
Oops, All Spells!
Pox
3 Expedition Envoy
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Town Gossipmonger
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Bygone Bishop
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Archangel of Tithes
2 Odric, Lunarch Marshal
2 Archangel Avacyn
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Always Watching
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Land (20)
2 Canopy Vista
3 Fortified Village
13 Plains
2 Westvale Abbey
3 Gryff's Boon
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Haneweir Militia Captain
2 Lambholt Pacifist
2 Gaea's Revenge
Any thoughts or tips on tweaking this deck. It's a deck far outside of my norm (being a control player most of the time) so any tips would be greatly appreciated.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Here's my first go through for a swap from my very light black splash over to a nice green splash for the format warping card that is CoCo. And since I'm green how about that 2 drop human that's also a warrior, oh and D.Command.
2 Canopy Vista
2 Forest
4 Fortified Village
13 Plains
// Creatures 25
4 Dragon Hunter
2 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
2 Thraben Inspector
2 Town Gossipmonger
1 Knight of the White Orchid
2 Dromoka Warrior
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Arashin Foremost
3 Dromoka's Command
3 Collected Company
// Sorceries
3 Declaration in Stone
// Enchantments
1 Gryff's Boon
4 Always Watching
Cube
Terricube
Modern
8Rack
Burn
Legacy
Oops, All Spells!
Pox
GRAND PRIX TOKYO 2016 TOP 8Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Creature (26)
3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Dragon Hunter
3 Expedition Envoy
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Town Gossipmonger
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Declaration in Stone
Enchantment (7)
3 Gryff's Boon
4 Always Watching
Land (20)
14 Plains
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Shambling Vent
2 Shambling Vent
1 Gryff's Boon
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Hanweir Militia Captain
4 Anguished Unmaking
3 Secure the Wastes
It looks quite fast.
I do like the idea of something like that. It is intriguing to basically fight fire with fire against those types of decks. I could even see a couple Duress making it into the mainboard to give us better game 1's. The only thing that worries me is the potential of tapped lands, though I think the benefits outweigh potential downsides.
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq
I'm interested to hear about your experience. I've been playing around with a W/U list myself, trying to replicate as much aggression from the mono-white archetype while maintaining the tempo gains from Reflector Mage and the countermagic from the board.
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq
I love Archangel of Tithes, but a lot of decks can easily answer her (ultimate price in particular) and she doesn't present as much of a clock without Always Watching.
If I had to venture a guess as to why UW has been moved away from, I'd say it has to do with Negate and creature-size: if we have the negate, we're golden, but what's our follow-up if we don't? Mono-white usually can afford to sandbag at least two threats, but our typical curve doesn't let us do that - we have to play bigger creatures that get removed just as easily, which stifles our ability to apply pressure consistently.
Given that, I still think that UW Humans has a place in the meta, but I think results show that an aggressive lean is more consistent than a value-approached with Dragonlord Ojutai.
4 Town Gossipmonger
4 Thraben Inspector
2 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Reflector Mage
4 Archangel of Tithes
4 Always Watching
4 Declaration in Stone
2 Gryff's Boon
2 Negate
Lands
12 Plains
4 Prairie Stream
4 Port Town
2 Meandering River
2 Felidar Cub
3 Vryn Wingmare
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Ojutai's Command
2 Immolating Glare
2 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Tragic Arrogance
I played this deck to a 2-3 finish at an IQ. Unfortunately I ran into a lot of Mardu Control, but I think the principles it tries to use are sound. I'd probably try to push the Reflector Mages to the board for more one drops, while also making room in the board for more Gideons and Secure the Wastes, as well as possibly Gryff's Boon. Would love more feedback, but I think that's where we start.
Tl;dr: we're maybe a turn slower than mono-White, but we can fix that.
I appreciate your analysis and testing of the W/B version, I definitely think it has potential moving forward. I'm also glad the tapped lands didn't impact the deck's overall strategy.
A transformative sideboard strategy could be really effective. I think part of the reason the number of Humans decks has fallen off us because they're predictable and straightforward. You know what to expect when you go against a Humans deck. I like it.
As for Hanweir Militia Captain, you want to side it in against anyone who, as Craig Wescoe put it, isn't aggressively wiping your board. The Captain is all about board presence. Once it flips it continually buffs Thalia's Lieutenant with the tokens at each end step, plus they get buffed by any additional Lieutenants. Probably good against Bant, Tokens (unless they're running Tragic Arrogance), and any other creature strategy.
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq
I agree about the W/U list needing to be more aggressive. Here's the list I'm planning on running at my next FNM:
2x Anointer of Champions
2x Consul's Lieutenant
2x Dragon Hunter
4x Knight of the White Orchid
3x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4x Reflector Mage
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
4x Thraben Inspector
4x Town Gossipmonger
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Spells (8)
4x Always Watching
4x Declaration in Stone
Lands (21)
1x Island
12x Plains
4x Port Town
4x Prairie Stream
3x Archangel of Tithes
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3x Gryff's Boon
3x Hanweir Militia Captain
3x Negate
2x Stasis Snare
After seeing the recent results, the one thing I loved about the W/B list from this past weekend was the main deck Gideons. I think that card is very difficult for many decks to deal with effectively, especially Bant Company and G/W Tokens.
What do you guys think?
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq
I really like this idea, you're able to transform your gameplan by adding lands to support your 4 drops, but you gain a late game mana sink and additional threats that you don't have to trade your entire board state for.
I agree with his premise of not including spells of the off-color, simply because the mana is still too tight to cast reliably, but I'm not sure which color is a better addition. The lifegain from Shambling Vent could be really significant vs. the additional aggression from Needle Spires.
I like his sideboard guide a lot, it seems to mirror my vague ideas with a much higher degree of specificity. Definitely a great blueprint to start with, Karsten is extremely thorough in his analyses.
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq
3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Lightning Berserker
2 Bygone Bishop
2 Anointer of Champions
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
1 Dragonmaster Outcast
2 Thraben Inspector
2 Stern Constable
4 Declaration in Stone
3 Gryff's Boon
8 Plains
2 Mountain
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Needle Spires
2 Stone Quarry
1 Westvale Abbey
3 Dragon Hunter
2 Stasis Snare
2 Rending Volley
2 Hallowed Moonlight
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Plains
The reason to run gideon over always watching is that you can't add too many non-threats to the deck, or it stops working well. Gideon lets you keep in some number of "always watching" effects, also have counterspells, and also keep the threat count high. He's either solid against most decks, or amazing. It seems weird to me that more people aren't running him.
2x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
3x Dragon Hunter
4x Expedition Envoy
4x Thraben Inspector
4x Town Gossipmonger
2x Gryff's Boon
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
4x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Declaration in Stone
2x Always Watching
3x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
12x Plains
4x Port Town
3x Prairie Stream
3x Dispel
3x Invasive Surgery
3x Negate
1x Gryff's Boon
1x Hidden Dragonslayer
2x Lantern Scout
2x Stasis Snare
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
Boarding:
coco decks: -3 gideon, +3 dispel, -1 anointer of champions, +1 gryff's boon
Zulaport / Husk decks with coco: -3 Gideon, +3 dispel, -2 Always Watching, +2 Stasis Snare, -1 2/1, +1 Gryff's boon
Ramp decks: -2 Declaration in stone, -2 Gryff's Boon +3 Negate, +1 Hidden dragonslayer
Mirror: -3 Gideon, +2 Lantern Scout, +1 Gryff's Boon. On the draw, -1 Anointer, +1 stasis snare
GW: +2 Stasis snare, +1 Gryff's boon, -2 Always Watching, -1 reflector mage? Maybe bring in dispel too?
Esper / GB / Kalitas control: -3 Declaration in stone, -1 Reflector Mage, -2 Always Watching, +3 Invasive Surgery, +1 Negate + 2 Dispel.
Your worst matchup is decks that run creatures AND sweepers. That makes boarding difficult, but I think it's best in those cases to just forget the sorcery counterspells and play around the sweepers. Dispel might be good at beating point removal instead.
Decks with only kalitas as a creature can be tough. You have to keep in some number of bad spells against those decks (declaration or reflector) because kalitas will take over a game if you can't make them immediately chump with him. Sometimes you draw the spell and they don't draw kalitas, and you lose because you "took a mulligan", or they draw kalitas and you don't have the removal spell.
The mirror is tricky, it always seems to come down to a race. Just fly in and try to gain some life.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Hanweir Militia Captain
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Town Gossipmonger
1 Den Protector
4 Consul's Lieutenant
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Knight of the White Orchid
3 Collected Company
2 Stasis Snare
4 Always Watching
Lands:
4 Canopy Vista
3 Fortified Village
1 Forest
14 Plains
2 Archangel of Tithes
3 Eerie Interlude
4 Dromoka's Command
2 Declaration in Stone
1 Stasis Snare
3 Celestial Flare
I made a few tweaks after FNM that I haven't tested yet. Every single time I ever boarded I removed all 4 Town Gossipmonger so I have removed those from the next version of the deck. In addition I felt Hanweir Militia Captain and Collected Company were allstars every time they were seen (I wasn't sure if I wanted 4 CoCo in a low curve aggro list, I do), so they've been upped to 4. I've also added a 23rd land (I mulliganed A LOT it seems) and a single Kytheon. I'll be trying out the new list this Wednesday to see how it goes.
Most of my decks: http://tappedout.net/users/thraashman/
Seems like a pretty decent combination of the Humans and Bant Company decks. I really really want to cast Profaner of the Dead against Tokens, seems like a good time lol. I think that the format has slowed enough to make this deck pretty effective.
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq
Interested to see how things go for you, and I agree that there's a definite midrange push (as mentioned above, I'm playing Watanabe's deck tonight!). I'm torn between both strategies and tonight will help me decide which way I want to go. Good luck and I'll post some results too!
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq
I actually threw this list together and played a few games with friends (against Brood Monitor Combo and an Eldrazi Company deck). It did alright, Lambholt Pacifist is actually a real offensive powerhouse provided you've got a way to pump it. This deck is certainly stronger in the mid game than any of the Human variations, but it gives up the explosiveness they had, and a lot of the time I found myself really missing the ability to punish awkward starts my opponents may have had.
Speaking of awkward starts this deck could have awkward mana at times, and also got it's ass royally handed to it by flyers, but those are typical problems the Bant Company deck's been suffering from.
I also found practically no use for Ojutai's Command, but then again I only played it once. Still, since this is a CoCo deck and we like to keep our creature density high this is probably at the top of the list to be cut for something else, maybe Citadel Castellan or something, or maybe bring back Declaration in Stone which, despite not being a creature, is straight removal that I found myself really missing a lot of the time.
I really enjoyed playing the deck last night and went 3-1 with it, beating R/B Madness and Great Aurora Control before running into two consecutive Brood Monitor Combo decks. I lost to the first one because I didn't know how best to attack it (of course it didn't help that I got mana screwed the first game and he comboed off on turn 5 the second game because of Cryptolith Rite). I figured it out the second match though and won 2-0. The key in that matchup is to attack the combo pieces as aggressively as possible, especially Displacer. Ojutai's Command to counter Displacer and bring back Thalia's Lieutenant won me game 1 of the second match. It definitely has a place in the deck, but I could see moving it to the sideboard.
I'm going to make a few changes going forward. I agree that more direct removal is necessary, as well as something to address flyers. Gryff's Boon was also really good out of the board (Gryff's Boon returned from the graveyard onto an animated Gideon won me game 2 of the second match lol), but I never touched Profaner, Lantern Scout, or Sigarda. I'm thinking that the combination of Boon and Sigarda will assist against flyers, and Sigarda is a nice silver bullet against targeted removal decks. I don't have any Tokens in my local meta, so Profaner is out in favor of two Declaration in Stone. Lantern Scout really only comes in against burn and fast aggro, and that's minimal in my local meta too, so it's out for a third Declaration. I'm considering also swapping the 4th Tracker into the main deck for the 4th Dromoka's Command as I brought Tracker in almost every post-board game, but I'm going to hold off on that for now.
Overall, I think the deck is legitimate and flexible depending on the matchup. Tracker and Duskwatch Recruiter are essential for the longer matches, Clues are an awesome addition for those grindy games. Turn two Lambholt Pacifist into turn 3 Thalia's Lieutenant or Dromoka's Command is quite possibly the ideal start as it's impossible for Control to ignore and hard for aggro to keep up with. Definitely a great deck and I plan on continuing to play it moving forward.
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq