i see. that differs from my thinking of getting 4-5 power (T1 Gorger or Zurgo, T2 Marauder or Abbot) on the board on turn 2 and then use burn to remove blockers. i don't mind exiling something important when playing Abbot on turn 2-3, actually.
so it seems that even when Abbot/Fodder/Ire Shaman rotates out of Standard. Thermo Alchemist can fill in the 2 drop slot.
thank you for the info.
and yeah i agree that Borderland Marauder (whom i call Borderland Murderer) is the best 2 drop we have. thankfully, she's gonna be around for a while.
i just hope the devs don't get a fit of erythrophobia like they did the past few recent sets.
Actually, I think our logic is very similar. Given the choice, I'll drop Marauder down first to get the aggro going over dropping an Alchemist. If they start putting blockers in the way, then I move to being more of a control deck (as you do - removing the blockers when they are there), and put a Thermo-Alchemist in the way to ping them while targetting creatures. If they try to be more controlling, then I remain the beatdown, and just pressure with the 5 power on the deck, and only drop more creatures when they toss out a removal spell. An absolute dream is to drop T1 Zurgo/Gorger, T2 Marauder, T3 Alchemist, as now (in the absence of a sweeper) an opponent has too many choices as to what they see as most important to remove first...
i see. that differs from my thinking of getting 4-5 power (T1 Gorger or Zurgo, T2 Marauder or Abbot) on the board on turn 2 and then use burn to remove blockers. i don't mind exiling something important when playing Abbot on turn 2-3, actually.
so it seems that even when Abbot/Fodder/Ire Shaman rotates out of Standard. Thermo Alchemist can fill in the 2 drop slot.
thank you for the info.
and yeah i agree that Borderland Marauder (whom i call Borderland Murderer) is the best 2 drop we have. thankfully, she's gonna be around for a while.
i just hope the devs don't get a fit of erythrophobia like they did the past few recent sets.
Actually, I think our logic is very similar. Given the choice, I'll drop Marauder down first to get the aggro going over dropping an Alchemist. If they start putting blockers in the way, then I move to being more of a control deck (as you do - removing the blockers when they are there), and put a Thermo-Alchemist in the way to ping them while targetting creatures. If they try to be more controlling, then I remain the beatdown, and just pressure with the 5 power on the deck, and only drop more creatures when they toss out a removal spell. An absolute dream is to drop T1 Zurgo/Gorger, T2 Marauder, T3 Alchemist, as now (in the absence of a sweeper) an opponent has too many choices as to what they see as most important to remove first...
ah. well you certainly made good points. but do you not miss the pseudo card advantage of Abbot?
ah. well you certainly made good points. but do you not miss the pseudo card advantage of Abbot?
Surprisingly, not really - I find Abbot more card disadvantage due to the exiling of something that I want to play (e.g. drop Abbot T3 hoping for land, turn over Incendiary Flow).
And also there's a red list posted that hit 4th in an SCG IQ (was mentioned by RDW podcast crew on their Facebook feed), and highlighted by SCG on the website today.
Yeah, the thinking that you might exile something you want to play is completely flawed. That Incendiary Flow is just as likely to be second from the top as it is to be on top.
Yes, I realise that Abbot is, by definition, card advantage. I'm just commenting that in my experience, I seem to flip cards into exile more often that I play them (in reality, my guess is it's about 50/50. Let's say that we've done nothing other than play two land and two one drops on the first two turns, and have all 2-3 drops and one land in hand. A T3 Abbot has about 30 cards to hit and be able to play that turn, based on my list). Therefore, rather than frustrate myself, I enjoy nibbling away at people with my Alchemist. Each to their own!
I played Thursday Night Magic at my LGS and had 3 rounds of play and finished 4th. I played JonInWherever's list with a couple of tweaks. Here is what I played:
Match 1 vs Bant CoCo: 1-2 Lost the dice toss game 1 and was stuck on 2 lands too long. Game 2 on the play I rolled over him too fast with the nut draw. Game 3 Again stuck on 2 lands too long and couldn't come back. Opponent asked how many lands I was running and I told him and he said sorry about the variance.
Match 2 vs Grixis Control: 2-1 Again lost the dice toss and stuck on 2 lands...sheesh! Game 2 on the play and a good curve out for game over. Game 3 was a battle but Collective Defiance pulls out the win.
Match 3 vs Abzan Ingest brew: Lost the dice roll again, stuck on 2 and then flood. Game 2 on the play and Thermo-Burn does the job. Game 3 I get the Hanweir Garrison/Township on the draw with 2 mountains and a Borderland Murderer and Incendary Flow and Thermo Alchemist. I drop the Murderer to test the waters and it gets Ultimate Price, Draw another Garrison and drop the first which gets Silkwrapped. He drops Eldrazi Displacer which I Flow into Exile. I get Another Garrison down for Tokens Galore but only draw 1 more Mountain before I finish him.
I think I may go back to my Burning Fever list from last week.
Yes, I realise that Abbot is, by definition, card advantage. I'm just commenting that in my experience, I seem to flip cards into exile more often that I play them (in reality, my guess is it's about 50/50. Let's say that we've done nothing other than play two land and two one drops on the first two turns, and have all 2-3 drops and one land in hand. A T3 Abbot has about 30 cards to hit and be able to play that turn, based on my list). Therefore, rather than frustrate myself, I enjoy nibbling away at people with my Alchemist. Each to their own!
The miss rate is really high, if that's what you're getting at. And yes, that is a problem. There was talk early on that Abbot was close to the power level of Snapcaster Mage or Dark Confidant, and that's definitely not the case. It's not even in the Augur of Bolas tier, honestly. It is a decent aggressive two-drop, sometimes it gets you a card, but it's rather mediocre in lists that aren't built around it. It works if your deck is really consistent and really low to the ground, but Standard doesn't really support something like that...
ah. well you certainly made good points. but do you not miss the pseudo card advantage of Abbot?
Surprisingly, not really - I find Abbot more card disadvantage due to the exiling of something that I want to play (e.g. drop Abbot T3 hoping for land, turn over Incendiary Flow).
well, yes, there is that unfortunate result sometimes. however, with board states getting clogged, i think there's something to using Thermo Alchemists as an alternative.
-----------------------------------
FNM report:
using the same deck as last week's (which went 4-0)
Round 1 vs G/B Delirium - Win. i was able to put him to burn range before Delirium enabled Ishkanah hit the table.
Round 2 vs Esper Control - Loss. kept a rather threat light hand game 1 (didn't know the guy's deck beforehand). then game 2 i got stuck on 2 lands for several turns.
Round 3 vs Bant Humans Coco - Loss. when he cast Coco at end of my turn, put into play 2 Thalia's Lieutenant (both had 2 +1/+1 counters as a result) and played Duskwatch Recruiter and Tireless Tracker on his turn to give the Lieutenants another 2 +1/+1 counters, i suppressed the desire to flip the table in rage. curse Wizards for allowing Coco to remain in Standard.
Round 4 vs W/r Humans - Win. i surprisingly won against the guy, probably because he hurt himself a lot with his painlands.
well, not a satisfying FNM. variance played a role. i hope for better results next time.
JohnInWherever: The thing about playing Abbot is that in the early game, you want him to find lands, not spells. You play him T3 if you don't have your 3rd land drop. If he hits a spell, no biggie. He dug you closer to a land. That card you exiled doesn't matter. It wasn't going to help you to draw it at that point in absence of a land in many cases anyway.
If you already have your land drops in hand (e.g. you are slightly flooded), that is when you hold him back to turn 4 or 5 and make better use of his card advantage. It's those 3 land starters where you draw your 4th. You need Abbot in those situations to find you some gas.
The only time I'm ever really disappointed with Abbot is when I have bad hands where he is my only threat and I feel obligated to cast him in T2. Even then, he isn't too terrible because of Prowess. That being said, the decks I play him in, I generally don't have anything that costs more than 3 CMC. I also tend to run him along side Atarka's Command, which makes the prowess on him a lot more relevant.
any spicy new ideas to help us R/x Aggro fans win it in the final month we play Abbot of Keral Keep and Exquisite Firecraft in Standard?
Highly unlikely. The Red Aggro / Atarka Red lists of previous Standard were successful because other top tier decks had 8-12 creatures. Current standard decks have 20+
any spicy new ideas to help us R/x Aggro fans win it in the final month we play Abbot of Keral Keep and Exquisite Firecraft in Standard?
Highly unlikely. The Red Aggro / Atarka Red lists of previous Standard were successful because other top tier decks had 8-12 creatures. Current standard decks have 20+
i think the problem is that opponents can deploy those creatures really fast (sometimes at instant speed) and Red lacks instant speed removal (Lightning Strike) to keep pace. Abzan aggro before had 20+ creatures and was still manageable. W/r aggro and Bant Coco are really bad matchups for current mono red.
ah so pretty much the same from the one you played weeks ago? sideboard's different, i think.
FNM Report:
modified the deck a bit. removed 2 Fiery Impulse (pretty useless anyway) replaced with Dragon Whisperer as an additional mana sink. i was thinking of using Burn From Within but it's too costly.
Round 1 vs Grixis Thermo Thing. Win. i asked him why Grixis. he said it's for Duress (and possibly other Black cards i didn't see him use). i saw him beat Bant Coco by getting the first Coco with Duress and the second one with Dispel. really cool.
Round 2 vs W/r Humans. Loss. well, it's quite expected. they just can drop creatures faster, and i can't possibly trade with first strike creatures, much less first strike creatures with an anthem effect. boarded in 4x Roast and 4x Rending Volley and got rid of some of my one drop creatures and still got beaten decisively.
Round 3 vs U/R Thermo thing. Win. luckily, i was able to get rid of his 2x Thing in the Ice before they flipped.
Round 4 vs W/B Control. Win. luckily, i got a nice curve of creatures with burn to finish the opponent off.
well, that's it on my end. how about your FNM report, guys?
ah so pretty much the same from the one you played weeks ago?
Well, I did 4-0 with it, so yeah. Thunderbreak package in the side main difference. I'm noticing a lot of Dragons and Origins cards in these lists. Kinda sad.
Match 1 vs Mono Red: 2-1 Very similar decks except I have the Commands and Collective Defiance. Game one was quick as I was on curve and the Hanweir Garrison closed out the show. Game 2 He was able to sneak an Impetuous Devils in to finish in a tight race. Game 3 was double Hanweir Garrison with a concession.
Match 2 vs Fevered Visions: 2-0 This deck was piloted by Donald Mason one the better players in our area, he had feature match at the GP last weekend against Jarvis Yu. I had to play thoughtfully and when he dropped the Visions I was able to play out my one drops avoiding any damage. Game 2 he had a slow hand on mana and I could draw what seemed to be only creatures. I had dropped a Lightning Berserker with a Surged Bushwhacker and got him down. Tried a Collective Defiance which got countered, then dropped a Village Messeger with double Bushwhackers for lethal.
Match 3 vs Bant CoCo: 0-2 Originally the pairing had me facing Victor who was on G/R Emrakul Ramp, but someone had dropped and they had dropped the wrong player and I got re-paired. Game 1 got him to 5 on 4 mana and he came back when I flooded. Game 2 was a mulligan down to 4 with 1 Hanweir Battlement and mana screw. The pilot knew it was messed up and was gracious even though I was hot, but I shook his hand and told him its cool, just variance.
Match 4 vs Bant Spirits: 1-1 Game one was pretty tight and went about 20 mins due to Pulse of Murasa, game two went longer with him able to get his Reflector mages and Rattlechains going while I couldn’t find any burn, just Puls of Murasa twice. Game 3 went to turns, I had him low but he wouldn’t concede.
It was fun I got to meld the Garrison/Battlements once vs Bant Spirits but Relector Mage sent it back to my hands. I will try some tweaks and play it again this Tuesday.
ah so pretty much the same from the one you played weeks ago?
Well, I did 4-0 with it, so yeah. Thunderbreak package in the side main difference. I'm noticing a lot of Dragons and Origins cards in these lists. Kinda sad.
Very slightly. But Atarka's Command is probably the most powerful card in the deck and Battlements makes all my other creatures slightly better, as I can give them haste in the mid-game.
I was glad to see the Battlements, providing Haste to a Borderland Murderer is great, to a Hanweir Garrison it is awesome! I needed to adjust to sequencing my mana correctly, the hand lands, Glades, and basic mana do require thoughtful play. I only had that one time where I mulliganed down to 4 and had one land and it was a Battlements. I noticed most pilots play two, but getting one out on time is crucial to the mid-game swing. The Bushwhacker is too the early game what Haste on a Hanweir Garrison at the right time and to start those tokens coming down is too the mid. The threat of the Meld lurks in the opponents mind if he is familiar with the land, a couple of my opponents were paying attention and asked when it could Meld. Melding and getting those Eldrazi Horrors tokens feels really good.
ah. well you certainly made good points. but do you not miss the pseudo card advantage of Abbot?
mono red deck 5-0 in Competitive Standard League.
And also there's a red list posted that hit 4th in an SCG IQ (was mentioned by RDW podcast crew on their Facebook feed), and highlighted by SCG on the website today.
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Furyblade Vampire
3 Goblin Glory Chaser
4 Insolent Neonate
3 Lightning Berserker
3 Thermo-Alchemist
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
21 Mountain
Spells (15)
4 Fiery Temper
3 Collective Defiance
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Incendiary Flow
3 Reckless Bushwhacker
3 Lightning Axe
3 Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
1 Collective Defiance
2 Geier Reach Sanitarium
C Long Live Eldrazi C
2 Hanweir Battlements
18 Mountain
Creatures
3 Lightning Berserker
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Borderland Marauder
4 Thermo-Alchemist
4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Galvanic Bombardment
4 Incendiary Flow
4 Collective Defiance
4 Exquisite Firecraft
1 Molten Vortex
4 Impetuous Devils
2 Roast
2 Twin Bolt
3 Rending Volley
3 Weaver of Lightning
Match 1 vs Bant CoCo: 1-2 Lost the dice toss game 1 and was stuck on 2 lands too long. Game 2 on the play I rolled over him too fast with the nut draw. Game 3 Again stuck on 2 lands too long and couldn't come back. Opponent asked how many lands I was running and I told him and he said sorry about the variance.
Match 2 vs Grixis Control: 2-1 Again lost the dice toss and stuck on 2 lands...sheesh! Game 2 on the play and a good curve out for game over. Game 3 was a battle but Collective Defiance pulls out the win.
Match 3 vs Abzan Ingest brew: Lost the dice roll again, stuck on 2 and then flood. Game 2 on the play and Thermo-Burn does the job. Game 3 I get the Hanweir Garrison/Township on the draw with 2 mountains and a Borderland Murderer and Incendary Flow and Thermo Alchemist. I drop the Murderer to test the waters and it gets Ultimate Price, Draw another Garrison and drop the first which gets Silkwrapped. He drops Eldrazi Displacer which I Flow into Exile. I get Another Garrison down for Tokens Galore but only draw 1 more Mountain before I finish him.
I think I may go back to my Burning Fever list from last week.
The miss rate is really high, if that's what you're getting at. And yes, that is a problem. There was talk early on that Abbot was close to the power level of Snapcaster Mage or Dark Confidant, and that's definitely not the case. It's not even in the Augur of Bolas tier, honestly. It is a decent aggressive two-drop, sometimes it gets you a card, but it's rather mediocre in lists that aren't built around it. It works if your deck is really consistent and really low to the ground, but Standard doesn't really support something like that...
well, yes, there is that unfortunate result sometimes. however, with board states getting clogged, i think there's something to using Thermo Alchemists as an alternative.
-----------------------------------
FNM report:
using the same deck as last week's (which went 4-0)
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Borderland Marauder
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Hanweir Garrison
3 Lightning Berserker
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Collective Defiance
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Fiery Impulse
4 Incendiary Flow
Lands 22
2 Hanweir Battlements
20 Mountain
4 Roast
4 Rending Volley
2 Twin Bolt
2 Tears of Valakut
3 Goldnight Castigator
i went 2-2 this week's FNM.
Round 1 vs G/B Delirium - Win. i was able to put him to burn range before Delirium enabled Ishkanah hit the table.
Round 2 vs Esper Control - Loss. kept a rather threat light hand game 1 (didn't know the guy's deck beforehand). then game 2 i got stuck on 2 lands for several turns.
Round 3 vs Bant Humans Coco - Loss. when he cast Coco at end of my turn, put into play 2 Thalia's Lieutenant (both had 2 +1/+1 counters as a result) and played Duskwatch Recruiter and Tireless Tracker on his turn to give the Lieutenants another 2 +1/+1 counters, i suppressed the desire to flip the table in rage. curse Wizards for allowing Coco to remain in Standard.
Round 4 vs W/r Humans - Win. i surprisingly won against the guy, probably because he hurt himself a lot with his painlands.
well, not a satisfying FNM. variance played a role. i hope for better results next time.
If you already have your land drops in hand (e.g. you are slightly flooded), that is when you hold him back to turn 4 or 5 and make better use of his card advantage. It's those 3 land starters where you draw your 4th. You need Abbot in those situations to find you some gas.
The only time I'm ever really disappointed with Abbot is when I have bad hands where he is my only threat and I feel obligated to cast him in T2. Even then, he isn't too terrible because of Prowess. That being said, the decks I play him in, I generally don't have anything that costs more than 3 CMC. I also tend to run him along side Atarka's Command, which makes the prowess on him a lot more relevant.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Don't forget Atarka's Command.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
C Long Live Eldrazi C
2 Lightning Berserker
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
3 Reckless Bushwhacker
4 Hanweir Garrison
Spells (18)
4 Atarka's Command
4 Dragon Fodder
4 Incendiary Flow
2 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Collective Defiance
1 Forest
2 Hanweir Battlements
4 Cinder Glade
4 Game Trail
11 Mountain
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
2 Rending Volley
2 Clip Wings
4 Draconic Roar
2 Weaver of Lightning
4 Thunderbreak Regent
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
i think the problem is that opponents can deploy those creatures really fast (sometimes at instant speed) and Red lacks instant speed removal (Lightning Strike) to keep pace. Abzan aggro before had 20+ creatures and was still manageable. W/r aggro and Bant Coco are really bad matchups for current mono red.
ah so pretty much the same from the one you played weeks ago? sideboard's different, i think.
FNM Report:
modified the deck a bit. removed 2 Fiery Impulse (pretty useless anyway) replaced with Dragon Whisperer as an additional mana sink. i was thinking of using Burn From Within but it's too costly.
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Borderland Marauder
2 Dragon Whisperer
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Hanweir Garrison
3 Lightning Berserker
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Collective Defiance
4 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Fiery Impulse
4 Incendiary Flow
Lands 22
2 Hanweir Battlements
20 Mountain
4 Roast
4 Rending Volley
1 Molten Vortex
2 Goldnight Castigator
2 Twin Bolt
2 Magmatic Chasm
went 3-1.
Round 1 vs Grixis Thermo Thing. Win. i asked him why Grixis. he said it's for Duress (and possibly other Black cards i didn't see him use). i saw him beat Bant Coco by getting the first Coco with Duress and the second one with Dispel. really cool.
Round 2 vs W/r Humans. Loss. well, it's quite expected. they just can drop creatures faster, and i can't possibly trade with first strike creatures, much less first strike creatures with an anthem effect. boarded in 4x Roast and 4x Rending Volley and got rid of some of my one drop creatures and still got beaten decisively.
Round 3 vs U/R Thermo thing. Win. luckily, i was able to get rid of his 2x Thing in the Ice before they flipped.
Round 4 vs W/B Control. Win. luckily, i got a nice curve of creatures with burn to finish the opponent off.
well, that's it on my end. how about your FNM report, guys?
Well, I did 4-0 with it, so yeah. Thunderbreak package in the side main difference. I'm noticing a lot of Dragons and Origins cards in these lists. Kinda sad.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
4 Cinder Glade
10 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
3 Hanweir Battlements
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
3 Borderland Marauder
3 Village Messenger
3 Lightning Berserker
4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
2 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Atarka's Command
4 Galvanic Bombardment
4 Incendiary Flow
2 Tears of Valakut
3 Rending Volley
2 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Impetuous Devils
2 Clip Wings
3 Pulse of Murasa
Match 1 vs Mono Red: 2-1 Very similar decks except I have the Commands and Collective Defiance. Game one was quick as I was on curve and the Hanweir Garrison closed out the show. Game 2 He was able to sneak an Impetuous Devils in to finish in a tight race. Game 3 was double Hanweir Garrison with a concession.
Match 2 vs Fevered Visions: 2-0 This deck was piloted by Donald Mason one the better players in our area, he had feature match at the GP last weekend against Jarvis Yu. I had to play thoughtfully and when he dropped the Visions I was able to play out my one drops avoiding any damage. Game 2 he had a slow hand on mana and I could draw what seemed to be only creatures. I had dropped a Lightning Berserker with a Surged Bushwhacker and got him down. Tried a Collective Defiance which got countered, then dropped a Village Messeger with double Bushwhackers for lethal.
Match 3 vs Bant CoCo: 0-2 Originally the pairing had me facing Victor who was on G/R Emrakul Ramp, but someone had dropped and they had dropped the wrong player and I got re-paired. Game 1 got him to 5 on 4 mana and he came back when I flooded. Game 2 was a mulligan down to 4 with 1 Hanweir Battlement and mana screw. The pilot knew it was messed up and was gracious even though I was hot, but I shook his hand and told him its cool, just variance.
Match 4 vs Bant Spirits: 1-1 Game one was pretty tight and went about 20 mins due to Pulse of Murasa, game two went longer with him able to get his Reflector mages and Rattlechains going while I couldn’t find any burn, just Puls of Murasa twice. Game 3 went to turns, I had him low but he wouldn’t concede.
It was fun I got to meld the Garrison/Battlements once vs Bant Spirits but Relector Mage sent it back to my hands. I will try some tweaks and play it again this Tuesday.
how's the mana base for you guys? doesn't Hanweir Battlements stretch the already fragile Atarka Red mana base?
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
don't those make Lightning Berserker weaker and shadowlands and battlelands sometimes worse?
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
i'm sticking to mono red. serves me well and freed my mind of mana base issues.