I have already replaced my duskwatch recruiters with selfless spirit. There are some cards u just need to protect (tireless tracker, spell queller, thalia) and 2/1 flying beater isn't bad.
I don't think this is a good idea. Selfless Spirit provides situational advantage, whereas Duskwatch Recruiter provides advantage the whole game. I can see Selfless Spirit in the deck, maybe more of a sideboard card (meta dependent), but not replacing Duskwatch. Selfless Spirit with flash is better (although still situational, so arguably not better than Duskwatch), but that requires you run and have on the board Rattlechains. Now we're diluting the main deck to cram a card in that is only so-so for the deck, so that's not good.
Here are three scenarios for your consideration. Ask yourself in each scenario, "which card would I prefer to play and/or topdeck: Recruiter or Selfless Spirit?"
1) On the play, T2, opponent played a ETB-tapped land on their T1. Which would be a better 2-drop here, Recruiter or Selfless Spirit?
2) Middle of the game, mirror match (or against humans/GW Token). Both players are top-decking with empty boards, which card is better to draw? Recruiter or Selfless Spirit? What about with a gummed up board?
3) Late game, opponent has a limited board presence, you have no presence. Top-deck mode. What do you hope to draw, Recruiter or Selfess Spirit?
IMO, the only time Spirit was a better play/draw was in the gummed up board state, because it allows you to attack with more impunity. The rest of them, Recruiter is a better play/draw. And these scenarios are all likely on a regular basis in Bant Coco.
Against, GW or mirror, I rarely run into situations of empty boards. It's generally a race and flying is extremely relevant to go over the wall of tokens to hit the planeswalkers. I would definitely hands down prefer this on T2 compared to a duskwatch because I now know my turn 3 drop (tireless tracker or thalia) will be protected, which is extremely relevant vs the mirror
Selfless Spirit is not a good fit for this deck IMO, the reason being that Spell Queller decks are popular right now and against those decks you rarely want to play a 3-drop into open mana, especially if you're holding DromCom or a Queller of your own. In addition this is one of the most removal-light formats in a long time, and a lot of the removal in the format gets around indestructible anyway. If lots of people are playing Fiery Impulse and Ultimate Price in your meta, I'd say go for it, but Recruiter is much better in an open meta at the moment.
I have already replaced my duskwatch recruiters with selfless spirit. There are some cards u just need to protect (tireless tracker, spell queller, thalia) and 2/1 flying beater isn't bad.
I don't think this is a good idea. Selfless Spirit provides situational advantage, whereas Duskwatch Recruiter provides advantage the whole game. I can see Selfless Spirit in the deck, maybe more of a sideboard card (meta dependent), but not replacing Duskwatch. Selfless Spirit with flash is better (although still situational, so arguably not better than Duskwatch), but that requires you run and have on the board Rattlechains. Now we're diluting the main deck to cram a card in that is only so-so for the deck, so that's not good.
Here are three scenarios for your consideration. Ask yourself in each scenario, "which card would I prefer to play and/or topdeck: Recruiter or Selfless Spirit?"
1) On the play, T2, opponent played a ETB-tapped land on their T1. Which would be a better 2-drop here, Recruiter or Selfless Spirit?
2) Middle of the game, mirror match (or against humans/GW Token). Both players are top-decking with empty boards, which card is better to draw? Recruiter or Selfless Spirit? What about with a gummed up board?
3) Late game, opponent has a limited board presence, you have no presence. Top-deck mode. What do you hope to draw, Recruiter or Selfess Spirit?
IMO, the only time Spirit was a better play/draw was in the gummed up board state, because it allows you to attack with more impunity. The rest of them, Recruiter is a better play/draw. And these scenarios are all likely on a regular basis in Bant Coco.
Against, GW or mirror, I rarely run into situations of empty boards. It's generally a race and flying is extremely relevant to go over the wall of tokens to hit the planeswalkers. I would definitely hands down prefer this on T2 compared to a duskwatch because I now know my turn 3 drop (tireless tracker or thalia) will be protected, which is extremely relevant vs the mirror
Selfless Spirit is not a good fit for this deck IMO, the reason being that Spell Queller decks are popular right now and against those decks you rarely want to play a 3-drop into open mana, especially if you're holding DromCom or a Queller of your own. In addition this is one of the most removal-light formats in a long time, and a lot of the removal in the format gets around indestructible anyway. If lots of people are playing Fiery Impulse and Ultimate Price in your meta, I'd say go for it, but Recruiter is much better in an open meta at the moment.
Well, Devin Koepke's 1st place winning bant list at SCG tournament this weekend will disagree that selfless spirit is a bad fit for the deck...
Koepke's list still plays 3 Recruiters, but runs Selfless Spirit over Lambholt Pacifist, which I personally don't agree with but he won the Open and I didn't. That said though it's important not to fall into the trap of valuing the results of one tournament too heavily, especially given that the other successful Bant players weren't running Selfless Spirit.
I think you're heavily underestimating what Recruiter and 2-drops in general do for the deck. Nissa is quite good in the late game, but Recruiter is going to hit the majority of the time in a list with 26-27 creatures. In addition there's the cost reduction ability on the flip side, and it's a turn 2 body, whereas Nissa doesn't do much until you hit 7 lands.
Greetings, fellow Company men(/women)! I've been watching SCG Columbus all afternoon and taking notes on every 3- CMC creature found in the 75 of every Bant Company deck in the top 64. I've graded each creature based on five qualities: its strength in situations where tempo matters, its strength in situations where card advantage matters, its matchup against Spell Queller, its matchup against Reflector Mage, and its usefulness in the five matchups I most expect to see in the next two weeks (GBx Control, WBx Control, Wr Humans, and UW Spirits).
Bant Company EMN
Collected Company hits in top 64 of SCG Open Columbus 7/25:
Den Protector:
- Weak against Spell Queller (can't be recast for its Megamorph cost; doesn't want to come down before turn 3)
- Variable quality against Reflector Mage (substantial mana investment to make its body line up well against Mage's; in longer games, getting another flip trigger is a big deal)
- Weak tempo play (2/1 for 2, 2/2 for 3, 3/2 for 5 are all below-rate bodies; extra effect doesn't impact the board)
- Strong card-advantage play (extra card with substantial selection)
- Variable quality against the field (embarrassing against UW Spirits and Wr Humans; strong against GBx Mid/Control and WBx Mid/Control)
Verdict: Plausible to good sideboard option. Not fit for maindeck.
Duskwatch Recruiter:
- Good against Spell Queller (can come down before Spell Queller mana, even on the draw, and threaten a transformation if opponent holds up Spell Queller and passes; 2/2 body can't break through a Spell Queller if it doesn't transform)
- Variable quality against Reflector Mage (should break even on mana through the bounce if it flips; frontside body lines up poorly against Mage, but backside body lines up very well)
- Variable quality tempo play (frontside is not good rate; backside is the best tempo-for-rate in the archetype)
- Strong card-advantage play (repeatable card draw)
- Good against the field (weak against Wr Humans as it won't flip early enough to use its decent 3/3 backside; backside strong against UW Spirits and likely to flip against them; frontside strong against GBx/WBx Mid/Control)
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy:
- Selectively good against Spell Queller (rarely a substantial tempo loss if taken by Spell Queller; improves from being cast later in the game)
- Weak against Reflector Mage (helpless in the face of a bounce if unable to transform in response; does nothing against the 2/3 body)
- Weak tempo play (weakest creature on stats in the deck; only begins to effect the battlefield after transforming)
- Strong card-advantage play (draw filtering on frontside, flashback on backside)
- Variable quality against the field (awful against Wr Humans and UW Spirits; generally needs to be cheated in via Company against GBx/WBx Mid/Control as it's a removal magnet, but is very potent if it sticks)
Verdict: Plausible sideboard option. Not fit for maindeck.
Lambholt Pacifist:
- Good against Spell Queller (can come down before Spell Queller mana, even on the draw, and threaten a transformation if opponent holds up Spell Queller and passes; body lines up favorably for attacking but needs help to actually be able to attack)
- Variable quality against Reflector Mage (very weak to the bounce effect, but the body lines up favorably against Mage's)
- Variable quality tempo play (above-rate stats for 2 mana, but attacking restriction limits its ability to capitalize on this)
- Weak card-advantage play (generates no additional advantage)
- Variable quality against the field (sizing is great against Wr Humans, sizing and flip threat are great against UW Spirits; embarrassing against GBx/WBx due to no additional advantage)
Verdict: Potential maindeck flex spot; helps a lot against the most threatening decks in the format, but also weakens the deck significantly in its good matchups. Might also be a good sideboard option for this reason.
Selfless Spirit:
- Weak against Spell Queller (comes down underneath it and can block it, but is outclassed by Spell Queller's body and doesn't interfere/threaten Queller in any meaningful way)
- Variable quality against Reflector Mage (can be sacrificed to dodge recast restriction; body lines up poorly, but it can sac itself to help other smaller creatures beat a Mage in combat)
- Variable quality tempo play (2/1 flying for 2 is replacement-level, ability is tempo-negative on paper but can potentially be worth much more than the body lost to it in some board states)
- Variable card-advantage play (its ability can't generate direct card advantage but can create substantial virtual card advantage)
- Variable quality against the field (ability is excellent against Wr Humans for allowing much more aggressive blocks; sizing and flying help against UW Spirits; potentially eats a removal spell or even a wrath effect against GBx/WBx; combos very well with Avacyn to give an additional edge against Wr Humans and the mirror)
Verdict: Unknown. Card has a high ceiling but potentially a very low floor. More testing needed.
Sylvan Advocate:
- Average against Spell Queller (comes down underneath it, bounces off of it early and swings past it late)
- Weak against Reflector Mage (weak to the bounce effect, lines up evenly against the 2/3 early, outclasses the body late)
- Average to good tempo play (replacement-level earlygame, absurd rate later game)
- Weak card advantage play (doesn't generate any extra card advantage)
- Strong against the field (sizing and vigilance are excellent against Wr Humans, fine enough against UW Spirits; sizing is superb against GBx/WBx where it can reliably grow, and makes Lumbering Falls virtually impossible to beat; biggest creature in the mirror)
Verdict: Archetype staple, maindeck 4-of.
Bounding Krasis:
- Good against Spell Queller (flash gives it substantial counterplay to Queller; can attack into Spell Queller profitably)
- Good against Reflector Mage (flash bypasses casting restriction; relevant ETB trigger and better sizing overcome loss of mana)
- Good tempo play (board-affecting ETB trigger, good sizing for the format)
- Weak card advantage play (generates additional effect, but effect very rarely matters in a card-advantage war)
- Strong against the field (sizing, ETB trigger, and flash are enormous boons against UW Spirits and Wr Humans; pretty vanilla against GBx/WBx but flash helps)
Verdict: Archetype staple.
Foul Emissary:
- Weak against Spell Queller (window for Emissary being good is small due to its need to be Emerge fodder; Queller disrupts that window even if it ends up getting removed later)
- Weak against Reflector Mage (see above; ETB trigger at least might make somebody think twice if the game is going to be about card advantage)
- Awful tempo play (1/1 for 3? no additional battlefield effect? needs to be sacrificed to do anything? lol please)
- Good card-advantage play (replaces itself on ETB; upgrades instead of dying when Emerged)
- Weak against the field (Emerge creatures are good, but it's very hard to find a window to resolve this into an Emerge creature on-curve -- the fast decks will just kill you and the slow decks will just kill it)
Verdict: Completely unplayable without Emerge creatures, borderline unplayable with them given how needy it is about timing with Emerge and how easy it is for the strongest decks in the format to disrupt this.
Lantern Scout:
- Weak against Spell Queller (no real counterplay to Queller; ETB trigger's strength is timing-dependent, which Queller is excellent at disrupting)
- Average against Reflector Mage (bounced at significant tempo loss, but the ETB trigger is strong when it's good, so getting a second use out of it may make up for that)
- Variable quality tempo play (3/2 is awkward sizing and bad sizing at 3 mana, but the ETB trigger usually leads to a substantial lifegain buffer, which allows for more aggressive positioning)
- Weak card-advantage play (no deck exists which directly trades its cards for the opponent's life total; potential for virtual advantage to be generated by way of lifegain but no direct CA otherwise)
- Weak against the field (lifegain only really matters against Wr Humans, and perhaps UW Spirits)
Verdict: Possible sideboard option, unfit for maindeck.
Nissa, Vastwood Seer:
- Average against Spell Queller (doesn't do anything to punish Queller initially, but tends to want to be cast later)
- Variable quality against Reflector Mage (2/2 body lines up poorly and it's bounced at a tempo loss, but ETB trigger is relevant at all stages of the game, making a second use of it desirable)
- Variable quality tempo play (below-rate stats for 3 mana, but the extra land goes a long way toward being able to maximize the tempo advantage that other cards in the deck give)
- Good card-advantage play (hits a land drop always; planeswalker form is lights-out card advantage)
- Variable quality against the field (below-average, but not awful, against Wr Humans and UW Spirits, thanks to ensuring the 4th land drop for Company; superb against GBx/WBx for hitting land drops and, if sticking, presenting a quick, threatening clock that draws cards as a bonus)
Verdict: Possible maindeck option as 1-2 of. Certainly should be in the 75.
Reflector Mage:
- Average against Spell Queller (it getting hit by Queller is bad, but it provides a tempo-positive answer to a Queller which already has a spell under it; its ETB is either fantastic or useless, depending on when it returns to play)
- Good against Reflector Mage (body lines up well against itself; strong ETB trigger disincentivizes opposing bounces)
- Good tempo play (usually goes positive on mana just from the bounce effect; the body is just a bonus, although it is average)
- Variable card-advantage play (if the opponent never recasts the bounced creature, which happens with some regularity, then Mage was a 2-for-1 straight-up; resetting counters/etc. isn't quite a card but is something; no CA on an empty board)
- Strong against the field (buys time against UW Spirits and Wr Humans; defining card of the mirror; so good against decks packing large creatures that it is literally a litmus test for the format)
Verdict: Archetype staple 4-of.
Spell Queller:
- Good against Spell Queller (body lines up well against itself; hitting a Spell Queller with your own Spell Queller is fantastic, as Queller's power lies wholly in timing, and a Queller being Quelled disrupts that timing)
- Variable quality against Reflector Mage (snagging a Mage is good, getting hit by one after Queller has snagged another spell is awful)
- Good tempo play (usually goes even-to-positive from the ETB trigger; the body is above-rate and almost free)
- Variable card-advantage play (if Queller never dies, which happens with some regularity, then Queller is a straight 2-for-1; sometimes even if the Queller dies, the timing of the spell it Quelled is so thrown off that it was essentially 'countered' anyway)
- Strong against the field (catch-all answer to anything that also pressures opponent; defining card of the mirror; increasingly becoming a litmus test for the format in its own right)
Verdict: Archetype staple 4-of.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar:
- Average against Spell Queller (weak to the ETB trigger, but trumps Queller's body on offense and outraces it so defense isn't a factor)
- Weak against Reflector Mage (bounced with no punishment)
- Good tempo play (outclasses most other 2-3 drop bodies and hampers mana development, buying time before the bodies that can outclass her hit; also randomly hoses things like haste and flash)
- Weak card-advantage play (doesn't generate any additional cards)
- Strong against the field (blocks Wr Humans very well, attacks profitably into UW Spirits while making their already-bad defense even worse; average against WBx/GBx, although variants of these decks that are heavier on creatures will find her creature clause hard to beat; specifically is very powerful in the mirror, despite weaknesses to Queller and Mage, because it is the hardest card to beat if left unanswered)
Verdict: Flex spot in the archetype, 2-3 main should probably be the default.
Tireless Tracker:
- Average against Spell Queller (weak to ETB trigger but quickly grows out of range of Queller's body; sometimes can get hosed if it comes back later and there aren't any land drops to make)
- Weak against Reflector Mage (bounced with no punishment; can mitigate this by generating advantage with Landfall before being bounced)
- Average tempo play (3/2 for 3 is unimpressive but good enough; doesn't affect board immediately)
- Strong card-advantage play (one of the best cards in any matchup where cards matter)
- Average against the field (very slow and weak against Wr Humans and UW Spirits; very powerful against GBx/WBx; grows into a large threat in the mirror, albeit one that can be reset, but also turns later land drops into weapons)
Verdict: Archetype staple, but a bit slow to be a 4-of. 2-3 main should probably be the default.
Void Grafter:
- Good against Spell Queller (flash gives it substantial counterplay to Queller; body lines up fine against it)
- Good against Reflector Mage (relevant ETB trigger makes bouncing it an uninviting prospect; flash gives it counterplay to sorcery-speed Mage; can outright counter a Mage ETB trigger)
- Good tempo play (replacement-level body, although the extra point of toughness is important; the ETB trigger can counter a spell or spell-like effect, which is a big tempo win; flash)
- Variable card-advantage play (all depends on whether ETB trigger can snag something)
- Average against the field (4th point of toughness is a boon against Wr Humans; flash + ETB can be helpful against UW Spirits; flash is good against GBx/WBx but the real test for those MUs is whether or not the ETB can do something)
Verdict: Playable in the archetype, though very situational. More testing needed.
I'm not actually sure. Not to sidestep the question (cuz it's a very good one) but I definitely envisioned Bant Company and Bant Humans as separate archetypes when I wrote that up.
I think you just jam 4 and see what happens tbh. Card is that good.
I find it very curious that most have turned away from the Eldrazi Displacer builds. Not sure if that's just the thrill of trying new stuff from EMN and freeing slots for it or if the meta is not suitable for flicker shenanigans.
I think that the meta should, if anything, be more susceptible to Displacer. One activation negates Spell Queller's ability, and can change the target of your own Spell Quellers in a pinch.
How do you reconcile your findings of creature quality with a potential curve of 8 two drops (Recruiter & Advocate) & 16 3 drops (4 Queller, 4 Reflector, 8 of Krasis/Nissa/Thalia/Tracker)?
The interaction between Queller and displacement is as follows:
* You play a spell, and your opponent exiles it with Queller
* You blink the opponent's Queller
* After the blink, two abilities must be put on the stack ("exile a spell" and "cast without paying")
* "Cast without paying" goes on the stack without issues, but "Exile a spell" cannot be put onto the stack because it has no spell to target
* At the end of it all the opponent has a tapped Queller and you can play your spell for free
If you have a Queller that has countered an opponent's spell, and then the opponent plays another spell that you want to counter, you can blink your own Queller. You exile their new spell in exchange for letting the opponent play the previously exiled spell for free. This can be great value if, for example, the previous spell was a Negate and has nothing to target anymore.
How do you reconcile your findings of creature quality with a potential curve of 8 two drops (Recruiter & Advocate) & 16 3 drops (4 Queller, 4 Reflector, 8 of Krasis/Nissa/Thalia/Tracker)?
I dunno yet.
I think Selfless Spirit or Lambholt Pacifist is the curve-filler 2-drop for sure. Which one you play probably depends on the expected metagame -- I think I might lean toward Pacifist for now, since there seems to be a whole lot of land-go in the format right now. But you play 2-3 of those. Ideally you could get away with a 10/15 split of Company hits (with 10 misses and 25 lands, though it's fair to say that you could also go down to nine misses to buy an extra slot), so you'd play 2 of your flex 2-drop and playsets of Recruiter/Advocate, or 3-3-4 it up.
For the 3-drops it's real hard. I think Nissa is an easy sideboard option, she's powerful to be able to lean on in longer games but definitely the worst option of the group listed. I think Thalia is probably only a 2-of in the maindeck; you could justify a sideboarded third one, but her value is somewhat situational and the legend rule is occasionally a problem at three copies in testing. I think I want to cut Tracker to two copies as well, again with the option to get more of them out of the board for longer games.
Krasis is something I want more time to try out, but I really think it could shine with Spell Queller. Without a doubt the worst part about Queller is that if your opponent is smart and doesn't run their spell into the Queller, you flash in a 2/3 that could have countered something for no extra advantage. Krasis is arguably a better flash beater than Queller (flying matters, but the 3rd point of power is very big), and has good game against Queller and Mage both for the mirror. I guess the number of these is supposed to be three for now.
Spell Queller:
- Good against Spell Queller (body lines up well against itself; hitting a Spell Queller with your own Spell Queller is fantastic, as Queller's power lies wholly in timing, and a Queller being Quelled disrupts that timing)
- Variable quality against Reflector Mage (snagging a Mage is good, getting hit by one after Queller has snagged another spell is awful)
- Good tempo play (usually goes even-to-positive from the ETB trigger; the body is above-rate and almost free)
- Variable card-advantage play (if Queller never dies, which happens with some regularity, then Queller is a straight 2-for-1; sometimes even if the Queller dies, the timing of the spell it Quelled is so thrown off that it was essentially 'countered' anyway)
- Strong against the field (catch-all answer to anything that also pressures opponent; defining card of the mirror; increasingly becoming a litmus test for the format in its own right)
Verdict: Archetype staple 4-of.
Thanks for your evaluative approach to each of the 3- drops. Very informative, and I in general agree with your conclusions. My deck is already shaped similarly to how you've framed it here. I am concerned, though, that the downside of Spell Queller is not fully spelled out here. Most decks will run removal, so while it is feasible that Spell Queller will quell the spell indefinitely, we cannot bank on that. We get a nice tempo swing when it hits the battlefield, and it can sometimes be enough to win us the game. If our opponent hangs on, however, the lash back is real. Let's assume our opponent is holding a Murder of Fiery Temper in hand. Now they control when their spell gets re-cast (assuming we have no additional shenanigans). If we quelled a creature, they can now give that creature flash (as the recasting ignores timing restrictions). Sorcery speed spell quelled could spell instant speed trouble. This leads me to limit Spell Queller to a 3-of in the deck, as I need to ensure I have the value creatures to close the game and Squeller to hit key spells. I might put a 4th in the sideboard against matches where it would be clutch, but I don't know that 4 main deck is the right choice.
Let me give you a scenario. You're playing against BW Control, they cast Languish, you Spell Queller it. If you can't win the game, you now have to play around the fact that you opponent can get that Languish at almost any time. At the end of their turn, do you cast Collected Company? Probably not, because they can Murder your Queller after Coco creatures resolve, and Languish your board plus your new creatures. This is just one example of how your game play is modified with respects to an instant speed version of a spell that is quelled. Is allowing the Languish to resolve better than quelling it? Obviously depends on the board state and the hand you have. But this should be understood when playing Queller, because he's not all upside.
Spell Queller:
- Good against Spell Queller (body lines up well against itself; hitting a Spell Queller with your own Spell Queller is fantastic, as Queller's power lies wholly in timing, and a Queller being Quelled disrupts that timing)
- Variable quality against Reflector Mage (snagging a Mage is good, getting hit by one after Queller has snagged another spell is awful)
- Good tempo play (usually goes even-to-positive from the ETB trigger; the body is above-rate and almost free)
- Variable card-advantage play (if Queller never dies, which happens with some regularity, then Queller is a straight 2-for-1; sometimes even if the Queller dies, the timing of the spell it Quelled is so thrown off that it was essentially 'countered' anyway)
- Strong against the field (catch-all answer to anything that also pressures opponent; defining card of the mirror; increasingly becoming a litmus test for the format in its own right)
Verdict: Archetype staple 4-of.
Thanks for your evaluative approach to each of the 3- drops. Very informative, and I in general agree with your conclusions. My deck is already shaped similarly to how you've framed it here. I am concerned, though, that the downside of Spell Queller is not fully spelled out here. Most decks will run removal, so while it is feasible that Spell Queller will quell the spell indefinitely, we cannot bank on that. We get a nice tempo swing when it hits the battlefield, and it can sometimes be enough to win us the game. If our opponent hangs on, however, the lash back is real. Let's assume our opponent is holding a Murder of Fiery Temper in hand. Now they control when their spell gets re-cast (assuming we have no additional shenanigans). If we quelled a creature, they can now give that creature flash (as the recasting ignores timing restrictions). Sorcery speed spell quelled could spell instant speed trouble. This leads me to limit Spell Queller to a 3-of in the deck, as I need to ensure I have the value creatures to close the game and Squeller to hit key spells. I might put a 4th in the sideboard against matches where it would be clutch, but I don't know that 4 main deck is the right choice.
Let me give you a scenario. You're playing against BW Control, they cast Languish, you Spell Queller it. If you can't win the game, you now have to play around the fact that you opponent can get that Languish at almost any time. At the end of their turn, do you cast Collected Company? Probably not, because they can Murder your Queller after Coco creatures resolve, and Languish your board plus your new creatures. This is just one example of how your game play is modified with respects to an instant speed version of a spell that is quelled. Is allowing the Languish to resolve better than quelling it? Obviously depends on the board state and the hand you have. But this should be understood when playing Queller, because he's not all upside.
In that scenario we can just hold our CoCo. If they remove the Queller, we play CoCo on their EOT. If they don't, we just beat face since they're a control deck. Honestly that's actually a pretty great position to be in against control - Queller mitigates their biggest source of card advantage, and you get to pressure them from two directions they can't defend against at the same time.
One thing I'd like to point out, Spell Queller's ability is NOT a may. If your opponent casts a spell and you blink their Queller, your exiled spell is not a legal target and they must exile their own spell. This makes Eldrazi Displacer pretty strong in Spell Queller battles.
The main problem I saw at SCG Columbus was Bant mirrors with stalled board states causing them to go to time. A good way to break the stall in the mirror could be Decimator of the Provinces. 3 Green looks like a lot, but we wouldn't be emerging it until turn 6 anyways and 14 green sources is enough. By that time, there should be 4-6 creatures on the board so Decimator represents an extra 13-19 power out of nowhere plus trample. Also, there aren't many things in the mirror that beat it. All that power and trample mean even an Avacyn doesn't stop them from taking a lot of damage. Countering it doesn't stop the pump. Thalia is the best card against it, but fighting or reflectoring it the previous turn shouldn't be too hard.
The main problem I saw at SCG Columbus was Bant mirrors with stalled board states causing them to go to time. A good way to break the stall in the mirror could be Decimator of the Provinces. 3 Green looks like a lot, but we wouldn't be emerging it until turn 6 anyways and 14 green sources is enough. By that time, there should be 4-6 creatures on the board so Decimator represents an extra 13-19 power out of nowhere plus trample. Also, there aren't many things in the mirror that beat it. All that power and trample mean even an Avacyn doesn't stop them from taking a lot of damage. Countering it doesn't stop the pump. Thalia is the best card against it, but fighting or reflectoring it the previous turn shouldn't be too hard.
I saw this also via the Open coverage and I've gone ahead and added 1 to my SB for mirror matches and to use against G/W Tokens since they are also good at clogging up the board.
Psy
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Currently Playing:
Jeskai Control:42-23-5 Elves: 44-31-3 Red-Aggro: 18-9-0 B/G Energy 21-6-0
Seems like we are jumping ship for a bit to this deck since it's clearly... I hate this deck, and sadly I may have to play it to win, (Testament to this at my LGS many of chose to not run it in favor of having fun). In talking to my teammates we are concerned about the Spirits match up the most and I'm in between these two decks for regionals. From the spirits pilots I've talked to and I quote,
"We dunk on Bant CoCo".
I take some of this as hyper bole but, he's also a pretty good player who despite having a slightly inflated ego doesn't just say BS all the time, So, Bant players how this match up go? I myself am running Quellers and Selfless Spirit to get some of that "indestructible" love.
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
Seems like we are jumping ship for a bit to this deck since it's clearly... I hate this deck, and sadly I may have to play it to win, (Testament to this at my LGS many of chose to not run it in favor of having fun). In talking to my teammates we are concerned about the Spirits match up the most and I'm in between these two decks for regionals. From the spirits pilots I've talked to and I quote,
"We dunk on Bant CoCo".
I take some of this as hyper bole but, he's also a pretty good player who despite having a slightly inflated ego doesn't just say BS all the time, So, Bant players how this match up go? I myself am running Quellers and Selfless Spirit to get some of that "indestructible" love.
Haven't quite jumped ship this this; I've had it built since SOI came out and only play it when my meta turns hostile against my other deck
With that being said; I did play BantCoCo using a not completely updated list since I was still waiting for cards so the only real change was I added 2 Thalia's and 3 Spell Quellers since that I what I had on hand. Out of the three matches I played; the only one that I didn't win was against U/W Spirits and he won that match 2-0. We played two other games for testing and I won one and lost the other.
My take on those 4 games was this; it all mattered on how I played the 1st 4 turns to decide each of the games. The game I won; went along the line of turn 2 Advocate, turn 3 Thalia, turn 4 either CoCo and him stumbling some which enabled me to then control the board somewhat with a better board presence since all his creatures were coming in play tapped. The 3 games I lost; I was never able to build up a board presence and he kept just chipping away for 2 to 4 damage a turn through the air. I was not running Selfless Spirits since at the time I didn't have the ones that I preordered.
I do think that if BantCoCo keeps a slow hand with the though of being able to catch back up by playing CoCo; that it is not going to work as well as it does against other decks. U/W is very rarely tapping out and their ability to counter CoCo pretty easily due to Wanderer and Queller make the playing the catchup via CoCo game plan harder to pull off.
Psy
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Jeskai Control:42-23-5 Elves: 44-31-3 Red-Aggro: 18-9-0 B/G Energy 21-6-0
So she says we need to board out company AGAINST aggro? There's been so many blow outs where they attack and I company into reflector mage and they get shrekt. But maybe theyre just outliers. I want to form my sideboard to be good against aggro decks (most of my meta).
So she says we need to board out company AGAINST aggro? There's been so many blow outs where they attack and I company into reflector mage and they get shrekt. But maybe theyre just outliers. I want to form my sideboard to be good against aggro decks (most of my meta).
I usually board out 1-2 companies against aggro and at least 1 land (usually other things too, like Tireless Tracker, whose value is more long game). For company, you optimize company when you have a large quantity of creatures that it can hit. Post board, you are usually reducing the number of creatures it can hit to side in removal, which makes it a less effective spell. Therefore, while it's still good to draw, and can sometimes be a blow out, you don't want to see it regularly. For the land, the logic is that you want to see more spells on average than land. If you flood, you lose. This is not always the case, depending on the match up, but against aggro, it is almost definitely the case. Therefore, taking out one land reduces the chance of flooding and also increases the chance of drawing spells that will help your board state. It's a percentage game, and every percent counts against aggro.
I guess the question is, why? CoCo is far and away the most powerful card in Standard right now, and it's made even better by all the good 3-drops in the format. IMO the best option for CoCo-less Bant would probably be a GW Tokens-style list with RM, Queller, and Tamiyo as options, although I'm not sure a splash is worth the bad manabase there.
The newer versions of the Bant Company deck I'm seeing runs Selfless Spirit in lieu of Bounding Krasis. Is this the right call? Can anyone provide a pros vs. cons? I run Spirit in the sideboard, still maindecking Krasis, as the tempo advantage he can provide is huge.
Selfless Spirit has been a consistent all-star for me. Evasive, so he can pressure planeswalkers in the gw tokens matchup, another two drop to help smooth draws, lets you decide the target of their next spot removal spell, eats a non-Languish wrath, and can flip Avacyn on command.
Random idea, would this deck do well with more flash creatures? I'm going to try testing a list without Sylvan Advocate, with Rattlechains in its stead. My thoughts on Rattlechains are that is allows us another flash play when Queller/CoCo aren't right but we still want to do something on the mana held up; it gives another evasive two drop to pressure gw tokens (this is the main matchup I'm concerned about) or any control deck; and it can be used to save a Spell Queller from spot removal. I am also including 3 Bounding Krasis and 1 Void Grafter to push the flash package. Without Sylvan Advocate, playing a 2/1 in its place, Dromoka's Command becomes a weaker turn 3 play. Instead of four D Command, I'm going with a 2/2 split of D/Ojutai Command. The O Command also gains some value being able to bring back Selfless Spirit or Rattlechains at instant speed to stop a kill spell. Rough list:
I like Harbinger because you can CoCo it, and it can flash in at the same cost. Double blue is rough, but it could really mess with combat math, being flashed in to block. Sorcerer is more flying redundancy, and stops opposing Avacyns while also triggering our own. It may not stop the cast triggers of some of the BigBads, but it does get rid of the body. Sorcerer does suffer from the UU cost, too. Mizzium Meddler seems like a weaker version of Void Grafter, that also dies to Ultimate Price, but it can still blank a kill spell, especially burn-oriented ones (if that ever becomes a thing). Herald feels like a weaker Bounding Krasis, with the monocolor issue again, but does give more flying redundancy, and is slightly less mana intensive. Not as good on defense, but plays well with the other spirits in the deck. This card would really push the deck into Bant CoCo Spirits, and I don't like that as much. Redeemer is just silly wrath recovery, probably still as bad as it's always been. Also requires warping mana base a bit.
Is Stratus Dancer a good answer to gw tokens lists like Osyp's? He was maindecking 3 Tragic Arrogance, trying to figure out an efficient way to trump that.
I was playing someone at my lgs casually and he was using a U/R prowess style deck hammering my 3 toughness creatures with burn spells while flying over my head to deal damage. What would a Bant player bring in to handle all the burn? It seems to me that counter spells, some Gideons and Avacyn's, and going the long game with the hopes that your opponent goes through most of their burn before you can build a solid board state is the way to go.
I haven't tested with it but Void Grafter seems really good against red. Invasive Surgery is also an option; all the good burn right now is sorcery speed.
I was playing someone at my lgs casually and he was using a U/R prowess style deck hammering my 3 toughness creatures with burn spells while flying over my head to deal damage. What would a Bant player bring in to handle all the burn? It seems to me that counter spells, some Gideons and Avacyn's, and going the long game with the hopes that your opponent goes through most of their burn before you can build a solid board state is the way to go.
I used to main deck Void Grafter (sideboard now), and he's pretty solid against removal heavy decks. I also play Eldrazi Displacer, who can flicker Grafter for tons of value! Holding up Dromoka's Command to blank a burn spell and fight a flier in response to the Prowess trigger can be pretty clutch too. Selfless Spirit and Spell Queller will help stay their hand as well, as you have fliers, can eat their removal with a Spirit or counter it with a Queller. Avacyn helps, but she's typically T5 at the earliest, and they've usually kept your board clean by then. Sometimes they have as much burn as you have creatures, and it's to no avail (especially if they can keep a prowess creature on board), but Coco helps recover, and the Quellers and Reflector Mages help maintain tempo while they waste burn without a prowess creature in play.
Those decks can be tough to beat, especially if they have good draws. I also side in Aerial Volley for flier decks, but it's mainly for spirits (as it doesn't help with Stormchaser Mage unless you can be sure they can't cast a spell).
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Selfless Spirit is not a good fit for this deck IMO, the reason being that Spell Queller decks are popular right now and against those decks you rarely want to play a 3-drop into open mana, especially if you're holding DromCom or a Queller of your own. In addition this is one of the most removal-light formats in a long time, and a lot of the removal in the format gets around indestructible anyway. If lots of people are playing Fiery Impulse and Ultimate Price in your meta, I'd say go for it, but Recruiter is much better in an open meta at the moment.
Well, Devin Koepke's 1st place winning bant list at SCG tournament this weekend will disagree that selfless spirit is a bad fit for the deck...
Winning deck list linked below:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=105550
I like to run some nissa over the duskwatch recruiters compared to his list.
I think you're heavily underestimating what Recruiter and 2-drops in general do for the deck. Nissa is quite good in the late game, but Recruiter is going to hit the majority of the time in a list with 26-27 creatures. In addition there's the cost reduction ability on the flip side, and it's a turn 2 body, whereas Nissa doesn't do much until you hit 7 lands.
Bant Company EMN
Collected Company hits in top 64 of SCG Open Columbus 7/25:
Den Protector
Duskwatch Recruiter
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Lambholt Pacifist
Selfless Spirit
Sylvan Advocate
Bounding Krasis
Foul Emissary
Lantern Scout
Nissa, Vastwood Seer
Reflector Mage
Spell Queller
Thalia, Heretical Cathar
Tireless Tracker
Void Grafter
Den Protector:
- Weak against Spell Queller (can't be recast for its Megamorph cost; doesn't want to come down before turn 3)
- Variable quality against Reflector Mage (substantial mana investment to make its body line up well against Mage's; in longer games, getting another flip trigger is a big deal)
- Weak tempo play (2/1 for 2, 2/2 for 3, 3/2 for 5 are all below-rate bodies; extra effect doesn't impact the board)
- Strong card-advantage play (extra card with substantial selection)
- Variable quality against the field (embarrassing against UW Spirits and Wr Humans; strong against GBx Mid/Control and WBx Mid/Control)
Verdict: Plausible to good sideboard option. Not fit for maindeck.
Duskwatch Recruiter:
- Good against Spell Queller (can come down before Spell Queller mana, even on the draw, and threaten a transformation if opponent holds up Spell Queller and passes; 2/2 body can't break through a Spell Queller if it doesn't transform)
- Variable quality against Reflector Mage (should break even on mana through the bounce if it flips; frontside body lines up poorly against Mage, but backside body lines up very well)
- Variable quality tempo play (frontside is not good rate; backside is the best tempo-for-rate in the archetype)
- Strong card-advantage play (repeatable card draw)
- Good against the field (weak against Wr Humans as it won't flip early enough to use its decent 3/3 backside; backside strong against UW Spirits and likely to flip against them; frontside strong against GBx/WBx Mid/Control)
Verdict: Archetype staple, probably 4-of maindeck.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy:
- Selectively good against Spell Queller (rarely a substantial tempo loss if taken by Spell Queller; improves from being cast later in the game)
- Weak against Reflector Mage (helpless in the face of a bounce if unable to transform in response; does nothing against the 2/3 body)
- Weak tempo play (weakest creature on stats in the deck; only begins to effect the battlefield after transforming)
- Strong card-advantage play (draw filtering on frontside, flashback on backside)
- Variable quality against the field (awful against Wr Humans and UW Spirits; generally needs to be cheated in via Company against GBx/WBx Mid/Control as it's a removal magnet, but is very potent if it sticks)
Verdict: Plausible sideboard option. Not fit for maindeck.
Lambholt Pacifist:
- Good against Spell Queller (can come down before Spell Queller mana, even on the draw, and threaten a transformation if opponent holds up Spell Queller and passes; body lines up favorably for attacking but needs help to actually be able to attack)
- Variable quality against Reflector Mage (very weak to the bounce effect, but the body lines up favorably against Mage's)
- Variable quality tempo play (above-rate stats for 2 mana, but attacking restriction limits its ability to capitalize on this)
- Weak card-advantage play (generates no additional advantage)
- Variable quality against the field (sizing is great against Wr Humans, sizing and flip threat are great against UW Spirits; embarrassing against GBx/WBx due to no additional advantage)
Verdict: Potential maindeck flex spot; helps a lot against the most threatening decks in the format, but also weakens the deck significantly in its good matchups. Might also be a good sideboard option for this reason.
Selfless Spirit:
- Weak against Spell Queller (comes down underneath it and can block it, but is outclassed by Spell Queller's body and doesn't interfere/threaten Queller in any meaningful way)
- Variable quality against Reflector Mage (can be sacrificed to dodge recast restriction; body lines up poorly, but it can sac itself to help other smaller creatures beat a Mage in combat)
- Variable quality tempo play (2/1 flying for 2 is replacement-level, ability is tempo-negative on paper but can potentially be worth much more than the body lost to it in some board states)
- Variable card-advantage play (its ability can't generate direct card advantage but can create substantial virtual card advantage)
- Variable quality against the field (ability is excellent against Wr Humans for allowing much more aggressive blocks; sizing and flying help against UW Spirits; potentially eats a removal spell or even a wrath effect against GBx/WBx; combos very well with Avacyn to give an additional edge against Wr Humans and the mirror)
Verdict: Unknown. Card has a high ceiling but potentially a very low floor. More testing needed.
Sylvan Advocate:
- Average against Spell Queller (comes down underneath it, bounces off of it early and swings past it late)
- Weak against Reflector Mage (weak to the bounce effect, lines up evenly against the 2/3 early, outclasses the body late)
- Average to good tempo play (replacement-level earlygame, absurd rate later game)
- Weak card advantage play (doesn't generate any extra card advantage)
- Strong against the field (sizing and vigilance are excellent against Wr Humans, fine enough against UW Spirits; sizing is superb against GBx/WBx where it can reliably grow, and makes Lumbering Falls virtually impossible to beat; biggest creature in the mirror)
Verdict: Archetype staple, maindeck 4-of.
Bounding Krasis:
- Good against Spell Queller (flash gives it substantial counterplay to Queller; can attack into Spell Queller profitably)
- Good against Reflector Mage (flash bypasses casting restriction; relevant ETB trigger and better sizing overcome loss of mana)
- Good tempo play (board-affecting ETB trigger, good sizing for the format)
- Weak card advantage play (generates additional effect, but effect very rarely matters in a card-advantage war)
- Strong against the field (sizing, ETB trigger, and flash are enormous boons against UW Spirits and Wr Humans; pretty vanilla against GBx/WBx but flash helps)
Verdict: Archetype staple.
Foul Emissary:
- Weak against Spell Queller (window for Emissary being good is small due to its need to be Emerge fodder; Queller disrupts that window even if it ends up getting removed later)
- Weak against Reflector Mage (see above; ETB trigger at least might make somebody think twice if the game is going to be about card advantage)
- Awful tempo play (1/1 for 3? no additional battlefield effect? needs to be sacrificed to do anything? lol please)
- Good card-advantage play (replaces itself on ETB; upgrades instead of dying when Emerged)
- Weak against the field (Emerge creatures are good, but it's very hard to find a window to resolve this into an Emerge creature on-curve -- the fast decks will just kill you and the slow decks will just kill it)
Verdict: Completely unplayable without Emerge creatures, borderline unplayable with them given how needy it is about timing with Emerge and how easy it is for the strongest decks in the format to disrupt this.
Lantern Scout:
- Weak against Spell Queller (no real counterplay to Queller; ETB trigger's strength is timing-dependent, which Queller is excellent at disrupting)
- Average against Reflector Mage (bounced at significant tempo loss, but the ETB trigger is strong when it's good, so getting a second use out of it may make up for that)
- Variable quality tempo play (3/2 is awkward sizing and bad sizing at 3 mana, but the ETB trigger usually leads to a substantial lifegain buffer, which allows for more aggressive positioning)
- Weak card-advantage play (no deck exists which directly trades its cards for the opponent's life total; potential for virtual advantage to be generated by way of lifegain but no direct CA otherwise)
- Weak against the field (lifegain only really matters against Wr Humans, and perhaps UW Spirits)
Verdict: Possible sideboard option, unfit for maindeck.
Nissa, Vastwood Seer:
- Average against Spell Queller (doesn't do anything to punish Queller initially, but tends to want to be cast later)
- Variable quality against Reflector Mage (2/2 body lines up poorly and it's bounced at a tempo loss, but ETB trigger is relevant at all stages of the game, making a second use of it desirable)
- Variable quality tempo play (below-rate stats for 3 mana, but the extra land goes a long way toward being able to maximize the tempo advantage that other cards in the deck give)
- Good card-advantage play (hits a land drop always; planeswalker form is lights-out card advantage)
- Variable quality against the field (below-average, but not awful, against Wr Humans and UW Spirits, thanks to ensuring the 4th land drop for Company; superb against GBx/WBx for hitting land drops and, if sticking, presenting a quick, threatening clock that draws cards as a bonus)
Verdict: Possible maindeck option as 1-2 of. Certainly should be in the 75.
Reflector Mage:
- Average against Spell Queller (it getting hit by Queller is bad, but it provides a tempo-positive answer to a Queller which already has a spell under it; its ETB is either fantastic or useless, depending on when it returns to play)
- Good against Reflector Mage (body lines up well against itself; strong ETB trigger disincentivizes opposing bounces)
- Good tempo play (usually goes positive on mana just from the bounce effect; the body is just a bonus, although it is average)
- Variable card-advantage play (if the opponent never recasts the bounced creature, which happens with some regularity, then Mage was a 2-for-1 straight-up; resetting counters/etc. isn't quite a card but is something; no CA on an empty board)
- Strong against the field (buys time against UW Spirits and Wr Humans; defining card of the mirror; so good against decks packing large creatures that it is literally a litmus test for the format)
Verdict: Archetype staple 4-of.
Spell Queller:
- Good against Spell Queller (body lines up well against itself; hitting a Spell Queller with your own Spell Queller is fantastic, as Queller's power lies wholly in timing, and a Queller being Quelled disrupts that timing)
- Variable quality against Reflector Mage (snagging a Mage is good, getting hit by one after Queller has snagged another spell is awful)
- Good tempo play (usually goes even-to-positive from the ETB trigger; the body is above-rate and almost free)
- Variable card-advantage play (if Queller never dies, which happens with some regularity, then Queller is a straight 2-for-1; sometimes even if the Queller dies, the timing of the spell it Quelled is so thrown off that it was essentially 'countered' anyway)
- Strong against the field (catch-all answer to anything that also pressures opponent; defining card of the mirror; increasingly becoming a litmus test for the format in its own right)
Verdict: Archetype staple 4-of.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar:
- Average against Spell Queller (weak to the ETB trigger, but trumps Queller's body on offense and outraces it so defense isn't a factor)
- Weak against Reflector Mage (bounced with no punishment)
- Good tempo play (outclasses most other 2-3 drop bodies and hampers mana development, buying time before the bodies that can outclass her hit; also randomly hoses things like haste and flash)
- Weak card-advantage play (doesn't generate any additional cards)
- Strong against the field (blocks Wr Humans very well, attacks profitably into UW Spirits while making their already-bad defense even worse; average against WBx/GBx, although variants of these decks that are heavier on creatures will find her creature clause hard to beat; specifically is very powerful in the mirror, despite weaknesses to Queller and Mage, because it is the hardest card to beat if left unanswered)
Verdict: Flex spot in the archetype, 2-3 main should probably be the default.
Tireless Tracker:
- Average against Spell Queller (weak to ETB trigger but quickly grows out of range of Queller's body; sometimes can get hosed if it comes back later and there aren't any land drops to make)
- Weak against Reflector Mage (bounced with no punishment; can mitigate this by generating advantage with Landfall before being bounced)
- Average tempo play (3/2 for 3 is unimpressive but good enough; doesn't affect board immediately)
- Strong card-advantage play (one of the best cards in any matchup where cards matter)
- Average against the field (very slow and weak against Wr Humans and UW Spirits; very powerful against GBx/WBx; grows into a large threat in the mirror, albeit one that can be reset, but also turns later land drops into weapons)
Verdict: Archetype staple, but a bit slow to be a 4-of. 2-3 main should probably be the default.
Void Grafter:
- Good against Spell Queller (flash gives it substantial counterplay to Queller; body lines up fine against it)
- Good against Reflector Mage (relevant ETB trigger makes bouncing it an uninviting prospect; flash gives it counterplay to sorcery-speed Mage; can outright counter a Mage ETB trigger)
- Good tempo play (replacement-level body, although the extra point of toughness is important; the ETB trigger can counter a spell or spell-like effect, which is a big tempo win; flash)
- Variable card-advantage play (all depends on whether ETB trigger can snag something)
- Average against the field (4th point of toughness is a boon against Wr Humans; flash + ETB can be helpful against UW Spirits; flash is good against GBx/WBx but the real test for those MUs is whether or not the ETB can do something)
Verdict: Playable in the archetype, though very situational. More testing needed.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
I think you just jam 4 and see what happens tbh. Card is that good.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
I think that the meta should, if anything, be more susceptible to Displacer. One activation negates Spell Queller's ability, and can change the target of your own Spell Quellers in a pinch.
* You play a spell, and your opponent exiles it with Queller
* You blink the opponent's Queller
* After the blink, two abilities must be put on the stack ("exile a spell" and "cast without paying")
* "Cast without paying" goes on the stack without issues, but "Exile a spell" cannot be put onto the stack because it has no spell to target
* At the end of it all the opponent has a tapped Queller and you can play your spell for free
If you have a Queller that has countered an opponent's spell, and then the opponent plays another spell that you want to counter, you can blink your own Queller. You exile their new spell in exchange for letting the opponent play the previously exiled spell for free. This can be great value if, for example, the previous spell was a Negate and has nothing to target anymore.
I dunno yet.
I think Selfless Spirit or Lambholt Pacifist is the curve-filler 2-drop for sure. Which one you play probably depends on the expected metagame -- I think I might lean toward Pacifist for now, since there seems to be a whole lot of land-go in the format right now. But you play 2-3 of those. Ideally you could get away with a 10/15 split of Company hits (with 10 misses and 25 lands, though it's fair to say that you could also go down to nine misses to buy an extra slot), so you'd play 2 of your flex 2-drop and playsets of Recruiter/Advocate, or 3-3-4 it up.
For the 3-drops it's real hard. I think Nissa is an easy sideboard option, she's powerful to be able to lean on in longer games but definitely the worst option of the group listed. I think Thalia is probably only a 2-of in the maindeck; you could justify a sideboarded third one, but her value is somewhat situational and the legend rule is occasionally a problem at three copies in testing. I think I want to cut Tracker to two copies as well, again with the option to get more of them out of the board for longer games.
Krasis is something I want more time to try out, but I really think it could shine with Spell Queller. Without a doubt the worst part about Queller is that if your opponent is smart and doesn't run their spell into the Queller, you flash in a 2/3 that could have countered something for no extra advantage. Krasis is arguably a better flash beater than Queller (flying matters, but the 3rd point of power is very big), and has good game against Queller and Mage both for the mirror. I guess the number of these is supposed to be three for now.
So something like this:
4 Recruiter
4 Advocate
2 Spirit
4 Mage
4 Queller
3 Krasis
2 Tracker
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
Thanks for your evaluative approach to each of the 3- drops. Very informative, and I in general agree with your conclusions. My deck is already shaped similarly to how you've framed it here. I am concerned, though, that the downside of Spell Queller is not fully spelled out here. Most decks will run removal, so while it is feasible that Spell Queller will quell the spell indefinitely, we cannot bank on that. We get a nice tempo swing when it hits the battlefield, and it can sometimes be enough to win us the game. If our opponent hangs on, however, the lash back is real. Let's assume our opponent is holding a Murder of Fiery Temper in hand. Now they control when their spell gets re-cast (assuming we have no additional shenanigans). If we quelled a creature, they can now give that creature flash (as the recasting ignores timing restrictions). Sorcery speed spell quelled could spell instant speed trouble. This leads me to limit Spell Queller to a 3-of in the deck, as I need to ensure I have the value creatures to close the game and Squeller to hit key spells. I might put a 4th in the sideboard against matches where it would be clutch, but I don't know that 4 main deck is the right choice.
Let me give you a scenario. You're playing against BW Control, they cast Languish, you Spell Queller it. If you can't win the game, you now have to play around the fact that you opponent can get that Languish at almost any time. At the end of their turn, do you cast Collected Company? Probably not, because they can Murder your Queller after Coco creatures resolve, and Languish your board plus your new creatures. This is just one example of how your game play is modified with respects to an instant speed version of a spell that is quelled. Is allowing the Languish to resolve better than quelling it? Obviously depends on the board state and the hand you have. But this should be understood when playing Queller, because he's not all upside.
In that scenario we can just hold our CoCo. If they remove the Queller, we play CoCo on their EOT. If they don't, we just beat face since they're a control deck. Honestly that's actually a pretty great position to be in against control - Queller mitigates their biggest source of card advantage, and you get to pressure them from two directions they can't defend against at the same time.
Modern: UW Spirits
Modern: UW Spirits
I saw this also via the Open coverage and I've gone ahead and added 1 to my SB for mirror matches and to use against G/W Tokens since they are also good at clogging up the board.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
"We dunk on Bant CoCo".
I take some of this as hyper bole but, he's also a pretty good player who despite having a slightly inflated ego doesn't just say BS all the time, So, Bant players how this match up go? I myself am running Quellers and Selfless Spirit to get some of that "indestructible" love.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Haven't quite jumped ship this this; I've had it built since SOI came out and only play it when my meta turns hostile against my other deck
With that being said; I did play BantCoCo using a not completely updated list since I was still waiting for cards so the only real change was I added 2 Thalia's and 3 Spell Quellers since that I what I had on hand. Out of the three matches I played; the only one that I didn't win was against U/W Spirits and he won that match 2-0. We played two other games for testing and I won one and lost the other.
My take on those 4 games was this; it all mattered on how I played the 1st 4 turns to decide each of the games. The game I won; went along the line of turn 2 Advocate, turn 3 Thalia, turn 4 either CoCo and him stumbling some which enabled me to then control the board somewhat with a better board presence since all his creatures were coming in play tapped. The 3 games I lost; I was never able to build up a board presence and he kept just chipping away for 2 to 4 damage a turn through the air. I was not running Selfless Spirits since at the time I didn't have the ones that I preordered.
I do think that if BantCoCo keeps a slow hand with the though of being able to catch back up by playing CoCo; that it is not going to work as well as it does against other decks. U/W is very rarely tapping out and their ability to counter CoCo pretty easily due to Wanderer and Queller make the playing the catchup via CoCo game plan harder to pull off.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
I usually board out 1-2 companies against aggro and at least 1 land (usually other things too, like Tireless Tracker, whose value is more long game). For company, you optimize company when you have a large quantity of creatures that it can hit. Post board, you are usually reducing the number of creatures it can hit to side in removal, which makes it a less effective spell. Therefore, while it's still good to draw, and can sometimes be a blow out, you don't want to see it regularly. For the land, the logic is that you want to see more spells on average than land. If you flood, you lose. This is not always the case, depending on the match up, but against aggro, it is almost definitely the case. Therefore, taking out one land reduces the chance of flooding and also increases the chance of drawing spells that will help your board state. It's a percentage game, and every percent counts against aggro.
Random idea, would this deck do well with more flash creatures? I'm going to try testing a list without Sylvan Advocate, with Rattlechains in its stead. My thoughts on Rattlechains are that is allows us another flash play when Queller/CoCo aren't right but we still want to do something on the mana held up; it gives another evasive two drop to pressure gw tokens (this is the main matchup I'm concerned about) or any control deck; and it can be used to save a Spell Queller from spot removal. I am also including 3 Bounding Krasis and 1 Void Grafter to push the flash package. Without Sylvan Advocate, playing a 2/1 in its place, Dromoka's Command becomes a weaker turn 3 play. Instead of four D Command, I'm going with a 2/2 split of D/Ojutai Command. The O Command also gains some value being able to bring back Selfless Spirit or Rattlechains at instant speed to stop a kill spell. Rough list:
2 Lumbering Falls
3 Forest
2 Yavimaya Coast
4 Plains
3 Canopy Vista
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Prairie Stream
3 Island
Creature (27)
4 Selfless Spirit
3 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Rattlechains
4 Reflector Mage
4 Spell Queller
3 Bounding Krasis
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Void Grafter
2 Archangel Avacyn
4 Collected Company
2 Dromoka's Command
2 Ojutai's Command
3 Declaration in Stone
2 Negate
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Ojutai's Command
2 Dromoka's Command
3 Lambholt Pacifist
2 Tragic Arrogance
Other possibly interesting creatures with flash: Harbinger of the Tides, Silumgar Sorcerer, Mizzium Meddler, Nebelgast Herald, Vile Redeemer
I like Harbinger because you can CoCo it, and it can flash in at the same cost. Double blue is rough, but it could really mess with combat math, being flashed in to block. Sorcerer is more flying redundancy, and stops opposing Avacyns while also triggering our own. It may not stop the cast triggers of some of the Big Bads, but it does get rid of the body. Sorcerer does suffer from the UU cost, too. Mizzium Meddler seems like a weaker version of Void Grafter, that also dies to Ultimate Price, but it can still blank a kill spell, especially burn-oriented ones (if that ever becomes a thing). Herald feels like a weaker Bounding Krasis, with the monocolor issue again, but does give more flying redundancy, and is slightly less mana intensive. Not as good on defense, but plays well with the other spirits in the deck. This card would really push the deck into Bant CoCo Spirits, and I don't like that as much. Redeemer is just silly wrath recovery, probably still as bad as it's always been. Also requires warping mana base a bit.
Is Stratus Dancer a good answer to gw tokens lists like Osyp's? He was maindecking 3 Tragic Arrogance, trying to figure out an efficient way to trump that.
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Vizzerdrix Count = 183, 3 in Italian, 2 Foil
I haven't tested with it but Void Grafter seems really good against red. Invasive Surgery is also an option; all the good burn right now is sorcery speed.
I used to main deck Void Grafter (sideboard now), and he's pretty solid against removal heavy decks. I also play Eldrazi Displacer, who can flicker Grafter for tons of value! Holding up Dromoka's Command to blank a burn spell and fight a flier in response to the Prowess trigger can be pretty clutch too. Selfless Spirit and Spell Queller will help stay their hand as well, as you have fliers, can eat their removal with a Spirit or counter it with a Queller. Avacyn helps, but she's typically T5 at the earliest, and they've usually kept your board clean by then. Sometimes they have as much burn as you have creatures, and it's to no avail (especially if they can keep a prowess creature on board), but Coco helps recover, and the Quellers and Reflector Mages help maintain tempo while they waste burn without a prowess creature in play.
Those decks can be tough to beat, especially if they have good draws. I also side in Aerial Volley for flier decks, but it's mainly for spirits (as it doesn't help with Stormchaser Mage unless you can be sure they can't cast a spell).