Here is my main deck that I went 7-1 at my GPT with off the top of my head. Straits dancer was in the side board but the board is a mess right now and it really depends on what your expecting.
I dont see how gideon would be better. Like i had said i played 4 bw control decks during swiss (1 eldrazi and 3 seth manfield versions) and won all of them pretty handedly. Now this could just be variance but i didnt have a problem vs them and felt like its a great matchup woth thenlist i had posted.
Im also thinking of cutting the 2 jaces for 2 lambholt pacifist.
@KLT:
Step 1: Make sure you can remove Kalitas.
Step 2: Make sure you can keep dealing damage past a Languish.
The deck can do both of these fine, you just have to play it with those priorities and you should pull ahead.
That coincides with my analysis of the problem/solution:
There is no hard removal for him mainboard, only temporary (Bounce with Reflector Mage, Tapping with Bounding Krasis) and a lock (Eldrazi Displacer + X) which is rather susceptible to removal (unless I have enough mana + Void Grafter, and even then it dies to Languish). Temporary keeping Kalitas from gaining life is usually enough to race him with my other creatures.
Postboard it should've been a little bit better with Declaration in Stone, Negates and a additional second Ojutai's Command should help against removal and Kalitas as well (Negates should preferably be saved to break his Season's Past Loop). Maybe I was just unlucky to not draw enough answers for Kalitas.
This isn't true, though, as Dromoka's Command counter + fight on several mainboard creatures is enough to kill Kalitas. I even had a Seasons Past player Languish with his Kalitas onboard because it netted him two zombies. But I've used those two modes on D-Command several times to remove Kalitas.
Any match up where our opponent is playing languish is probably good for us. But for you opponents plan is to clog the board it's really bad for us. The math ups where our opponent clogs the board up it critical that you have a flyer like Archangel Avacyn. Does anyone play Weastvale Abby to improve to matchup against match ups like G/W tokens or B/G commpany?
Hmm I'm not sure if fight is reliable enough if your opponent has tons of single target removal. It's necessary to catch them off-guard when they tap out for Kalitas or some other spell (or just get lucky e.g "make them have it"^^). Nonetheless you're right, there is more than enough answers to Kalitas, I just wonder since I didn't draw enough of them.
The tap out is huge, but the longer the game goes, the harder it can be, since they typically run spells like Nissa's Renewal to net them more land and life. I found, though, that I had more card advantage than my opponent, between Collected Company and Duskwatch Recruiter. He used Seasons Past and got back 4-5 cards and immediately had to use some of the cards to kill creatures on board, and I was holding up creatures in hand and attacking with manlands where possible. Bant Company can thrive in the long game due to great topdecks like Duskwatch Recruiter. I've played it, and when my opponent cast a kill spell, activated three times and netted three creatures. That's some stupid insane card advantage to go from empty hand to three (usually selected from choices) threats in hand.
The key to Kalitas is typically two-fold from mainboard. It's either a) you wait until they tap out and remove with D-Command or wait until they cast a kill spell and D-Command in response, making them either waste another kill spell or Kalitas is gone. Or Avacyn.
Season's past is like playing against Control decks, basically you want to leverage all of your flash creatures and companies for max value. Force them to always be on the back foot while never giving them to much value on Languish. They do have some games where they can steam roll you if you have a slow start and are behind, but generally I have found it to be a 2-0 matchup most of the time. Don't just run out Sylvan Advocate if you can avoid it, he is really good as is Lumbering Falls. Negate and any extra value creatures that you have in the board are good against them especially Tireless Tracker, Counterspells and what not. Negate has essentially been a counterspell for awhile.
I am currently testing out Bant Eldrazi and I have to say the deck has been extremely powerful although I did cut Elvish Visionary in favor of actually playing more Sylvan Advocate, primarily I want to a good matchup versus the Control decks and still be able to beat Gw and Gb consistently.
Here is the Eldrazi bant coco deck that I'm bringing to GP Minneapolis this weekend. But I need help figuring out the side board so that I can make my sideboard notes. I need help figuring out what to bring in against common match ups and what comes out. Any help whould be welcome.
first of all, been using bant company since khan block rotated.
i have also tried to use LSV's version of bant coco, but my preference is still go with the aggro build rather that the combo.. nevertheless, both builds are good.
1 - GW / Wx / Gx variant matchups are i think the grindy and/or most difficult or stressful MUs. but adding
2 - the eldrazi package [thought-knot and reality smasher] simply wins games 2 and/or 3 if you are on the draw.. its nuts, very difficult for control/midrange decks to handle both
3 - having advocate is simply a must. 4-off. any MU. super value. super strong.
Here is the Eldrazi bant coco deck that I'm bringing to GP Minneapolis this weekend. But I need help figuring out the side board so that I can make my sideboard notes. I need help figuring out what to bring in against common match ups and what comes out. Any help whould be welcome.
Couple of questions, although not SB related. What are you Rite-ing into? If you're going for Ormendahl, you should run 3-4 of the land to ensure you get it. If not that, I don't see any big plans for the mana except for Recruiter. Can't be comboing with Displacer, as it requires C mana to activate each time and Rites gives colored mana. Is it just to power out the early game? Also, why no Matter Reshaper? If you're gonna run the Eldrazi package, he is a strong one in this deck, considering he can be hit with Coco and will almost always replace himself on the board with another card.
Here is the Eldrazi bant coco deck that I'm bringing to GP Minneapolis this weekend. But I need help figuring out the side board so that I can make my sideboard notes. I need help figuring out what to bring in against common match ups and what comes out. Any help whould be welcome.
Couple of questions, although not SB related. What are you Rite-ing into? If you're going for Ormendahl, you should run 3-4 of the land to ensure you get it. If not that, I don't see any big plans for the mana except for Recruiter. Can't be comboing with Displacer, as it requires C mana to activate each time and Rites gives colored mana. Is it just to power out the early game? Also, why no Matter Reshaper? If you're gonna run the Eldrazi package, he is a strong one in this deck, considering he can be hit with Coco and will almost always replace himself on the board with another card.
The deck runs Rites to plow mana into Eldrazi Displacer and recruiter to lock my opponent out of the game.
Here is the Eldrazi bant coco deck that I'm bringing to GP Minneapolis this weekend. But I need help figuring out the side board so that I can make my sideboard notes. I need help figuring out what to bring in against common match ups and what comes out. Any help whould be welcome.
Couple of questions, although not SB related. What are you Rite-ing into? If you're going for Ormendahl, you should run 3-4 of the land to ensure you get it. If not that, I don't see any big plans for the mana except for Recruiter. Can't be comboing with Displacer, as it requires C mana to activate each time and Rites gives colored mana. Is it just to power out the early game? Also, why no Matter Reshaper? If you're gonna run the Eldrazi package, he is a strong one in this deck, considering he can be hit with Coco and will almost always replace himself on the board with another card.
The deck runs Rites to plow mana into Eldrazi Displacer and recruiter to lock my opponent out of the game.
As sideboard tech, you might consider Evolutionary Leap to bring in against control decks, maybe as a 2-of. Other thoughts, just for your consideration. I'd run no more than 3 rites. It's very board dependent, and not good in multiples. Being a dead draw in many scenarios, you probably don't want 4-of. The pain lands are gonna kill you, especially against an aggro deck. I'd look into other options, even more CIPT lands to minimize the pain lands, or run some life gain options to help balance the pain. I understand they act as tri-lands for colorless, but I'd cut all the Caves and put in one more Evolving Wilds, a Waste (why wouldn't you if you have Evolving Wilds?), and another Canopy Vista or Fortified Village. Your early game is going to be ugly, as you have 13 G-based two-drops and only 10 non-pain green lands (counting Evolving Wilds as one source each). If you're sold on the pain land variety, you could also consider adding 1-2 Corrupted Crossroads to help with the Drazi casting, possibly instead of Holdout Settlement. Lumbering Falls should be 4-of if possible. It's straight up won me games.
i'm putting a bant company deck together and cant seam to figure out how to build my deck and sideboard to effectively beat my friend's white-black control (designed by Seth Mayfield in the grand prix newyork). There are just so many spells to crush my deck. Are there any suggestions for countering this control deck? Below is a link to mtg top 8 with the deck my friend uses. http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12324&f=ST
I put this deck together this past week and started jamming some games locally. It's ridiculous. I can't believe how powerful it is and I win games where I am Languish'd 3x times and bounce right back with very little work. The U control player in me and Ramp enthusiast are sad. This deck if piloted correctly doesn't really have bad match ups, just grindy ones. The issue for me is which is better. Bant CoCo or Bant Humans. I have never liked the Humans version since it didn't seem to recover as quickly from board wipes as easily as Traditional CoCo. The fact this deck plays at instant speed in a format where the best removal is sorcery is bonkers. If you are a half way decent MTG player and understand the fundamentals of tempo, aggro control you wreck your opponent. Even they know how to play against this it's not the same as beating it.
So has anyone started brewing an update to the Bant lists using some of the new power cards like Spell Queller, the new Tamiyo, etc? Is Eldritch Evolution worth trying out or will that dilute the deck? It's a sac outlet to make Avacyn flip and can power out a 1-of 5-drop that the deck might not play currently. If there's value in that, what 5-drop would be worth including? Surrak is not a terrible 4-drop that some people already include. Avacyn if she's not on the board already. Dragonlord Ojutai is a maybe. Tajuru Warcaller for giggles. From the new set, Gisela might be a decent target. Docent of Perfection would be too funny, especially with Reflector Mages out... Maybe sometimes you sac a creature to go to a Reflector Mage because you need to bounce a creature. It definitely gives us options. Thalia's Lancers might not be a terrible 1-of either, allowing us to go search for Avacyn.
I think Tamiyo is SB? It depends on how the format shapes up. Gisela seems worse than Archangel Avacyn. Most lists are super tight on 2-3 cmc creatures and don't have a ton of space for 4cmc stuff outside of CoCo. There's usually about 2 flex spots outside of the 4 Dromoka's Commands. You don't really want to be below 25 CoCo targets game 1. You'll be playing with some real bad CoCos.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar seems excellent. I think Bant Humans could probably drop some nonsense for her. Since she helps you play faster (you're opponents creatures are slower, your opponent is slower), you can just put her in the two flex spots so you have 27 MD CoCo hits rather than just 25. You usually only need 1-2 turns to lethal your opponent if you've been playing to the board for the first few turns -- so your lategame doesn't need to be that good. Thalia just increases your clock and disrupts your opponent. It also makes Reflector Mage nuts, since everything you bounce will CIPT making it a double timewalk.
I have been playing GW Tokens for the past two months, but I am planning to switch back to Bant Company for the beginning of the new format. It's my belief that GW Tokens was the best deck of Shadows over Innistrad Standard, because the format was very soft to planeswalkers and the specific suite of resilient creatures that GW eventually settled on.
Since I don't have a set sideboarding plan yet, I'm not going to list a fraudulent sideboard. I do know that at least two, and possibly three, Thalia, Heretic Cathar belong in it. I also think three Lambholt Pacifist make the cut, which already takes up 35-40% of the board. Prolly throw in a couple of counterspells and whatnot to round it out, but I'll figure that out as I go.
The main principles that led me to these card choices and this subset of the archetype:
- Reflector Mage and Eldrazi Displacer are busted and provide the main long-game. I expect people to be experimenting with suboptimal creatures, which makes the combo all the better. It's basically impossible to play this and Archangel Avacyn without converting to full-on Bant Humans, though: you can't get the white sources for Avacyn without cutting Lumbering Falls, which in turn takes away most of the point of Sylvan Advocate, the cutting of which basically requires you to play Bant Humans instead. You're essentially allowed to play two of Avacyn, Displacer, and Falls, and I decided that Displacer and Falls were the best options (Falls is your best anti-control weapon, Displacer is your best anti-creature weapon). This has the bonus of optimizing us against GW Tokens: their Avacyns are better than ours, they're weak to Displacer, so we choose not to pick a losing battle over Avacyn and reap the advantages in other matchups. When I got off the deck last time, I was testing with no Avacyns anyway -- having Displacer and Mage is a more reliable way to go over the top that's not any rougher on the mana and that's more synergistic with the deck.
- Spell Queller feels like the absolute truth in early testing. You want to be playing four of this in an open field for sure. I think this pulls us away from Bant Humans because you don't have enough space to run the necessary cards and this guy.
- The rest of the deck pretty much fills itself out. You need 2-drops, and your best options are Duskwatch Recruiter and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, so you play them. You don't want to see multiples early so you play three, which incidentally gives you a good enough number of 2-drops (10). You've already used 11 slots on Mage + Queller + Displacer, and you want 26 Company hits, so you play Nissa and Tireless Tracker. Nissa is fine as a 2-of since you can find her off of Company and you don't necessarily want to see her early. That gives you three Trackers, which is not ideal (this card is nuts and you'd play 4 if you could), but the 4th Tracker is worse than going to nine 2-drops and worse than the 3rd Displacer, 4th Mage, 4th Queller and 2nd Nissa.
- You should probably play four Dromoka's Command, but I think Ojutai's Command is really good here. You have so many lines just on returning a creature, drawing and gaining life have their purposes, but the real new wrinkle is that Ojutai's Command plays well with Spell Queller. Those two give you nearly perfect coverage on opposing threats: Queller snags the small stuff and O-Com is a gigantic blowout against anything too big for Queller to hit. O-Com's biggest knock for its entire time in Standard has been that its rate is too poor for 4 mana, but if you can create a mana advantage just from the counter mode, then you flip that script on its head. You could cut the 26th land for the 4th D-Com as well, but I don't think that's where you want to be, because...
- 26 lands is the right number. I know the accepted standard is 25, but this deck's biggest weakness is its own mana base, and the 26th land does so much to fix that, not only in terms of adding another card that generates colored mana but also just in adding another land to make land drops.
Since I don't have a set sideboarding plan yet, I'm not going to list a fraudulent sideboard. I do know that at least two, and possibly three, Thalia, Heretic Cathar belong in it. I also think three Lambholt Pacifist make the cut, which already takes up 35-40% of the board. Prolly throw in a couple of counterspells and whatnot to round it out, but I'll figure that out as I go.
The main principles that led me to these card choices and this subset of the archetype:
- Reflector Mage and Eldrazi Displacer are busted and provide the main long-game. I expect people to be experimenting with suboptimal creatures, which makes the combo all the better. It's basically impossible to play this and Archangel Avacyn without converting to full-on Bant Humans, though: you can't get the white sources for Avacyn without cutting Lumbering Falls, which in turn takes away most of the point of Sylvan Advocate, the cutting of which basically requires you to play Bant Humans instead. You're essentially allowed to play two of Avacyn, Displacer, and Falls, and I decided that Displacer and Falls were the best options (Falls is your best anti-control weapon, Displacer is your best anti-creature weapon). This has the bonus of optimizing us against GW Tokens: their Avacyns are better than ours, they're weak to Displacer, so we choose not to pick a losing battle over Avacyn and reap the advantages in other matchups. When I got off the deck last time, I was testing with no Avacyns anyway -- having Displacer and Mage is a more reliable way to go over the top that's not any rougher on the mana and that's more synergistic with the deck.
- Spell Queller feels like the absolute truth in early testing. You want to be playing four of this in an open field for sure. I think this pulls us away from Bant Humans because you don't have enough space to run the necessary cards and this guy.
- The rest of the deck pretty much fills itself out. You need 2-drops, and your best options are Duskwatch Recruiter and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, so you play them. You don't want to see multiples early so you play three, which incidentally gives you a good enough number of 2-drops (10). You've already used 11 slots on Mage + Queller + Displacer, and you want 26 Company hits, so you play Nissa and Tireless Tracker. Nissa is fine as a 2-of since you can find her off of Company and you don't necessarily want to see her early. That gives you three Trackers, which is not ideal (this card is nuts and you'd play 4 if you could), but the 4th Tracker is worse than going to nine 2-drops and worse than the 3rd Displacer, 4th Mage, 4th Queller and 2nd Nissa.
- You should probably play four Dromoka's Command, but I think Ojutai's Command is really good here. You have so many lines just on returning a creature, drawing and gaining life have their purposes, but the real new wrinkle is that Ojutai's Command plays well with Spell Queller. Those two give you nearly perfect coverage on opposing threats: Queller snags the small stuff and O-Com is a gigantic blowout against anything too big for Queller to hit. O-Com's biggest knock for its entire time in Standard has been that its rate is too poor for 4 mana, but if you can create a mana advantage just from the counter mode, then you flip that script on its head. You could cut the 26th land for the 4th D-Com as well, but I don't think that's where you want to be, because...
- 26 lands is the right number. I know the accepted standard is 25, but this deck's biggest weakness is its own mana base, and the 26th land does so much to fix that, not only in terms of adding another card that generates colored mana but also just in adding another land to make land drops.
This is where I would start for EMN testing.
A few thoughts. I've been playing a Displacer Bant Company deck for a couple months now to much success. I agree with your assessment of Displacer, but I am first going to try cutting him in favor of a more traditional Bant build. This is two-fold. First, while he provides a sense of inevitability if you get him out, he is essentially a 6-drop with the requirement of a colorless land source in place. I rarely played him on curve because he would just die, and then he would be a wasted slot. He has a big target on him because of his ability and the nutty things the deck can do with him. Second, he strains the mana base. I've added at least one more colorless source than what you have because I tended to have him out without a colorless source more than I care to, at which point he's a vanilla 3/3 for 3, making him the worst creature in the deck. So in this sense, he can be both one of the best creatures and one of the worst creatures. He was often one of the creatures I sided out, depending on how his ability would work in the match-up, which then means I have a strained mana base for a creature I'm no longer running. For this reason, I'm going to first try the new Standard without him and see what happens.
Advocate is still good, even without Lumbering Falls. A 4/5 with vigilance for 2 is an amazing rate late game, even if it doesn't turn your mana intensive attackers from 3/3s to 5/5s. That being said, Lumbering Falls shouldn't be cut. I've won games from just swinging with the 3/3. If you drop Displacer, Lumbering Falls can probably go up to 4-of since the deck doesn't need to have as many Coasts for colorless sources.
Spell Queller seems like a powerhouse, as it plays into the tempo aspect of the deck, but I'm not sure 4 main is going to be right. I haven't done any testing, and therefore cannot speak from that aspect of it, but without having good ways of protecting Queller, it is an early tempo swing that can result in us getting blown out later.
I disagree that Jace needs to be in the deck. I've run Jace-less Bant Company for a while and haven't looked back. The card filtering is ok, and the utility of flashing back a spell is good but not great (many games I don't see or cast a Coco). He's extremely underwhelming as a top deck for a game that is seeking to out tempo or out card advantage your opponent. He's also not a top pick from a Coco (unless you're already doing ok or are ahead, at which point, most other creatures will help you close a game quicker). That being said, Lambholt Pacifist has been a house 2 drop for me. I only run 2 in the main (0 in SB), but it's a great play on turn 2, especially on the play when most players won't have a T2 play. Beating for 4 on T3 with Reflector Mage, Advocate, or even holding up for Dromoka's Command or flashing in Bounding Krasis on opponent's turn is a great way to start the game.
I run 26 lands as well, but I run 61 cards to add the extra land. I agree, 26 is necessary.
I'm curious why you didn't include Thalia, Heretic Cathar in your list. She seems like a real powerhouse and plays directly into the tempo theme of the deck. You did mention her in the sideboard, but I think she's mainboard material. A 3/2 first strike is already a decent rate (too bad she's not a 3/3!), but her CIPT ability means their 3-drop is probably delayed or their T3 creature is tapped. She's not a 4-of due to Legendary, but 2-3 should be included for sure. I also noticed that you completely cut Bounding Krasis, who plays into the flash and tempo theme of the deck. This deck likes to hold up mana to do things on the opponent's turn, and you've cut a fair portion of that out of the deck by losing Avacyn and the Krasis (Queller helps make up some of it though).
I'm going to be modifying my deck to test out at the prerelease and will hopefully have additional input later on how some of these cards perform. My deck will look something like this:
I have already replaced my duskwatch recruiters with selfless spirit. There are some cards u just need to protect (tireless tracker, spell queller, thalia) and 2/1 flying beater isn't bad.
I have already replaced my duskwatch recruiters with selfless spirit. There are some cards u just need to protect (tireless tracker, spell queller, thalia) and 2/1 flying beater isn't bad.
I don't think this is a good idea. Selfless Spirit provides situational advantage, whereas Duskwatch Recruiter provides advantage the whole game. I can see Selfless Spirit in the deck, maybe more of a sideboard card (meta dependent), but not replacing Duskwatch. Selfless Spirit with flash is better (although still situational, so arguably not better than Duskwatch), but that requires you run and have on the board Rattlechains. Now we're diluting the main deck to cram a card in that is only so-so for the deck, so that's not good.
Here are three scenarios for your consideration. Ask yourself in each scenario, "which card would I prefer to play and/or topdeck: Recruiter or Selfless Spirit?"
1) On the play, T2, opponent played a ETB-tapped land on their T1. Which would be a better 2-drop here, Recruiter or Selfless Spirit?
2) Middle of the game, mirror match (or against humans/GW Token). Both players are top-decking with empty boards, which card is better to draw? Recruiter or Selfless Spirit? What about with a gummed up board?
3) Late game, opponent has a limited board presence, you have no presence. Top-deck mode. What do you hope to draw, Recruiter or Selfess Spirit?
IMO, the only time Spirit was a better play/draw was in the gummed up board state, because it allows you to attack with more impunity. The rest of them, Recruiter is a better play/draw. And these scenarios are all likely on a regular basis in Bant Coco.
I have already replaced my duskwatch recruiters with selfless spirit. There are some cards u just need to protect (tireless tracker, spell queller, thalia) and 2/1 flying beater isn't bad.
I don't think this is a good idea. Selfless Spirit provides situational advantage, whereas Duskwatch Recruiter provides advantage the whole game. I can see Selfless Spirit in the deck, maybe more of a sideboard card (meta dependent), but not replacing Duskwatch. Selfless Spirit with flash is better (although still situational, so arguably not better than Duskwatch), but that requires you run and have on the board Rattlechains. Now we're diluting the main deck to cram a card in that is only so-so for the deck, so that's not good.
Here are three scenarios for your consideration. Ask yourself in each scenario, "which card would I prefer to play and/or topdeck: Recruiter or Selfless Spirit?"
1) On the play, T2, opponent played a ETB-tapped land on their T1. Which would be a better 2-drop here, Recruiter or Selfless Spirit?
2) Middle of the game, mirror match (or against humans/GW Token). Both players are top-decking with empty boards, which card is better to draw? Recruiter or Selfless Spirit? What about with a gummed up board?
3) Late game, opponent has a limited board presence, you have no presence. Top-deck mode. What do you hope to draw, Recruiter or Selfess Spirit?
IMO, the only time Spirit was a better play/draw was in the gummed up board state, because it allows you to attack with more impunity. The rest of them, Recruiter is a better play/draw. And these scenarios are all likely on a regular basis in Bant Coco.
Against, GW or mirror, I rarely run into situations of empty boards. It's generally a race and flying is extremely relevant to go over the wall of tokens to hit the planeswalkers. I would definitely hands down prefer this on T2 compared to a duskwatch because I now know my turn 3 drop (tireless tracker or thalia) will be protected, which is extremely relevant vs the mirror
I have already replaced my duskwatch recruiters with selfless spirit. There are some cards u just need to protect (tireless tracker, spell queller, thalia) and 2/1 flying beater isn't bad.
I don't think this is a good idea. Selfless Spirit provides situational advantage, whereas Duskwatch Recruiter provides advantage the whole game. I can see Selfless Spirit in the deck, maybe more of a sideboard card (meta dependent), but not replacing Duskwatch. Selfless Spirit with flash is better (although still situational, so arguably not better than Duskwatch), but that requires you run and have on the board Rattlechains. Now we're diluting the main deck to cram a card in that is only so-so for the deck, so that's not good.
Here are three scenarios for your consideration. Ask yourself in each scenario, "which card would I prefer to play and/or topdeck: Recruiter or Selfless Spirit?"
1) On the play, T2, opponent played a ETB-tapped land on their T1. Which would be a better 2-drop here, Recruiter or Selfless Spirit?
2) Middle of the game, mirror match (or against humans/GW Token). Both players are top-decking with empty boards, which card is better to draw? Recruiter or Selfless Spirit? What about with a gummed up board?
3) Late game, opponent has a limited board presence, you have no presence. Top-deck mode. What do you hope to draw, Recruiter or Selfess Spirit?
IMO, the only time Spirit was a better play/draw was in the gummed up board state, because it allows you to attack with more impunity. The rest of them, Recruiter is a better play/draw. And these scenarios are all likely on a regular basis in Bant Coco.
Against, GW or mirror, I rarely run into situations of empty boards. It's generally a race and flying is extremely relevant to go over the wall of tokens to hit the planeswalkers. I would definitely hands down prefer this on T2 compared to a duskwatch because I now know my turn 3 drop (tireless tracker or thalia) will be protected, which is extremely relevant vs the mirror
Selfless Spirit is not a good fit for this deck IMO, the reason being that Spell Queller decks are popular right now and against those decks you rarely want to play a 3-drop into open mana, especially if you're holding DromCom or a Queller of your own. In addition this is one of the most removal-light formats in a long time, and a lot of the removal in the format gets around indestructible anyway. If lots of people are playing Fiery Impulse and Ultimate Price in your meta, I'd say go for it, but Recruiter is much better in an open meta at the moment.
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3 Den Protector
4 Reflector Mage
4 Bounding Krasis
2 tireless tracker
3 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Archangel Avacyn
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendicar
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3 dromoka's command
4 Collected company
4 Sylvan Advocate
3 yavimaya coast
3 Lumbering Falls
3 Canopy vista
1 fortified village
2 Praire Stream
3 Evolving Wilds
1 Island
4 Plains
4 forest
Here is my main deck that I went 7-1 at my GPT with off the top of my head. Straits dancer was in the side board but the board is a mess right now and it really depends on what your expecting.
The Gideon, Ally of Zendicars should probably be Archangel, Avacyns but I was expecting a lot of black base control deck so Gideon was just better.
Any feedback whould be nice.
Im also thinking of cutting the 2 jaces for 2 lambholt pacifist.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
Step 1: Make sure you can remove Kalitas.
Step 2: Make sure you can keep dealing damage past a Languish.
The deck can do both of these fine, you just have to play it with those priorities and you should pull ahead.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
This isn't true, though, as Dromoka's Command counter + fight on several mainboard creatures is enough to kill Kalitas. I even had a Seasons Past player Languish with his Kalitas onboard because it netted him two zombies. But I've used those two modes on D-Command several times to remove Kalitas.
The tap out is huge, but the longer the game goes, the harder it can be, since they typically run spells like Nissa's Renewal to net them more land and life. I found, though, that I had more card advantage than my opponent, between Collected Company and Duskwatch Recruiter. He used Seasons Past and got back 4-5 cards and immediately had to use some of the cards to kill creatures on board, and I was holding up creatures in hand and attacking with manlands where possible. Bant Company can thrive in the long game due to great topdecks like Duskwatch Recruiter. I've played it, and when my opponent cast a kill spell, activated three times and netted three creatures. That's some stupid insane card advantage to go from empty hand to three (usually selected from choices) threats in hand.
The key to Kalitas is typically two-fold from mainboard. It's either a) you wait until they tap out and remove with D-Command or wait until they cast a kill spell and D-Command in response, making them either waste another kill spell or Kalitas is gone. Or Avacyn.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
I am currently testing out Bant Eldrazi and I have to say the deck has been extremely powerful although I did cut Elvish Visionary in favor of actually playing more Sylvan Advocate, primarily I want to a good matchup versus the Control decks and still be able to beat Gw and Gb consistently.
3 Evolving Wilds
2 Lumbering Falls
2 Canopy Vista
1 Holdout Settlement
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Llanowar Wastes
3 Caves of Koilos
2 Westvale Abbey // Ormendahl, Profane Prince
4 Duskwatch Recruiter // Krallenhorde Howler
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Sylvan Advocate
4 Reflector Mage
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Eldrazi Skyspawner
3 Reality Smasher
Spells
4 Collected Company
4 Cryptolith Rite
1 Reality Smasher
1 Lumbering Falls
2 Virulent Plague
3 Negate
1 Hallowed Moonlight
1 Enlightened Ascetic
2 Thought-Knoght Seer
2 Clip Wings
Here is the Eldrazi bant coco deck that I'm bringing to GP Minneapolis this weekend. But I need help figuring out the side board so that I can make my sideboard notes. I need help figuring out what to bring in against common match ups and what comes out. Any help whould be welcome.
first of all, been using bant company since khan block rotated.
i have also tried to use LSV's version of bant coco, but my preference is still go with the aggro build rather that the combo.. nevertheless, both builds are good.
@reaper: for the SB, id go with something like
3 Sylvan Advocate
2 Virulent Plague
2 Negate
1 Hallowed Moonlight
1 Enlightened Ascetic
4 Thought-not Seer
2 Clip Wings
because:
1 - GW / Wx / Gx variant matchups are i think the grindy and/or most difficult or stressful MUs. but adding
2 - the eldrazi package [thought-knot and reality smasher] simply wins games 2 and/or 3 if you are on the draw.. its nuts, very difficult for control/midrange decks to handle both
3 - having advocate is simply a must. 4-off. any MU. super value. super strong.
Couple of questions, although not SB related. What are you Rite-ing into? If you're going for Ormendahl, you should run 3-4 of the land to ensure you get it. If not that, I don't see any big plans for the mana except for Recruiter. Can't be comboing with Displacer, as it requires C mana to activate each time and Rites gives colored mana. Is it just to power out the early game? Also, why no Matter Reshaper? If you're gonna run the Eldrazi package, he is a strong one in this deck, considering he can be hit with Coco and will almost always replace himself on the board with another card.
The deck runs Rites to plow mana into Eldrazi Displacer and recruiter to lock my opponent out of the game.
As sideboard tech, you might consider Evolutionary Leap to bring in against control decks, maybe as a 2-of. Other thoughts, just for your consideration. I'd run no more than 3 rites. It's very board dependent, and not good in multiples. Being a dead draw in many scenarios, you probably don't want 4-of. The pain lands are gonna kill you, especially against an aggro deck. I'd look into other options, even more CIPT lands to minimize the pain lands, or run some life gain options to help balance the pain. I understand they act as tri-lands for colorless, but I'd cut all the Caves and put in one more Evolving Wilds, a Waste (why wouldn't you if you have Evolving Wilds?), and another Canopy Vista or Fortified Village. Your early game is going to be ugly, as you have 13 G-based two-drops and only 10 non-pain green lands (counting Evolving Wilds as one source each). If you're sold on the pain land variety, you could also consider adding 1-2 Corrupted Crossroads to help with the Drazi casting, possibly instead of Holdout Settlement. Lumbering Falls should be 4-of if possible. It's straight up won me games.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12324&f=ST
Jeez...
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Do we play the new Thalia? Does Unsubstantiate make a good sideboard card instead of Negate? What about cards like Borrowed Grace as sideboard tech against Languish?
Those are the only playbles from EMN for Bant.
I think Tamiyo is SB? It depends on how the format shapes up. Gisela seems worse than Archangel Avacyn. Most lists are super tight on 2-3 cmc creatures and don't have a ton of space for 4cmc stuff outside of CoCo. There's usually about 2 flex spots outside of the 4 Dromoka's Commands. You don't really want to be below 25 CoCo targets game 1. You'll be playing with some real bad CoCos.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar seems excellent. I think Bant Humans could probably drop some nonsense for her. Since she helps you play faster (you're opponents creatures are slower, your opponent is slower), you can just put her in the two flex spots so you have 27 MD CoCo hits rather than just 25. You usually only need 1-2 turns to lethal your opponent if you've been playing to the board for the first few turns -- so your lategame doesn't need to be that good. Thalia just increases your clock and disrupts your opponent. It also makes Reflector Mage nuts, since everything you bounce will CIPT making it a double timewalk.
This is my first take on the archetype.
4 Sylvan Advocate
3 Duskwatch Recruiter
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Reflector Mage
4 Spell Queller
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 Collected Company
3 Dromoka's Command
1 Ojutai's Command
Lands (26)
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Forest
3 Plains
1 Island
1 Wastes
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Lumbering Falls
4 Prairie Stream
3 Canopy Vista
Since I don't have a set sideboarding plan yet, I'm not going to list a fraudulent sideboard. I do know that at least two, and possibly three, Thalia, Heretic Cathar belong in it. I also think three Lambholt Pacifist make the cut, which already takes up 35-40% of the board. Prolly throw in a couple of counterspells and whatnot to round it out, but I'll figure that out as I go.
The main principles that led me to these card choices and this subset of the archetype:
- Reflector Mage and Eldrazi Displacer are busted and provide the main long-game. I expect people to be experimenting with suboptimal creatures, which makes the combo all the better. It's basically impossible to play this and Archangel Avacyn without converting to full-on Bant Humans, though: you can't get the white sources for Avacyn without cutting Lumbering Falls, which in turn takes away most of the point of Sylvan Advocate, the cutting of which basically requires you to play Bant Humans instead. You're essentially allowed to play two of Avacyn, Displacer, and Falls, and I decided that Displacer and Falls were the best options (Falls is your best anti-control weapon, Displacer is your best anti-creature weapon). This has the bonus of optimizing us against GW Tokens: their Avacyns are better than ours, they're weak to Displacer, so we choose not to pick a losing battle over Avacyn and reap the advantages in other matchups. When I got off the deck last time, I was testing with no Avacyns anyway -- having Displacer and Mage is a more reliable way to go over the top that's not any rougher on the mana and that's more synergistic with the deck.
- Spell Queller feels like the absolute truth in early testing. You want to be playing four of this in an open field for sure. I think this pulls us away from Bant Humans because you don't have enough space to run the necessary cards and this guy.
- The rest of the deck pretty much fills itself out. You need 2-drops, and your best options are Duskwatch Recruiter and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, so you play them. You don't want to see multiples early so you play three, which incidentally gives you a good enough number of 2-drops (10). You've already used 11 slots on Mage + Queller + Displacer, and you want 26 Company hits, so you play Nissa and Tireless Tracker. Nissa is fine as a 2-of since you can find her off of Company and you don't necessarily want to see her early. That gives you three Trackers, which is not ideal (this card is nuts and you'd play 4 if you could), but the 4th Tracker is worse than going to nine 2-drops and worse than the 3rd Displacer, 4th Mage, 4th Queller and 2nd Nissa.
- You should probably play four Dromoka's Command, but I think Ojutai's Command is really good here. You have so many lines just on returning a creature, drawing and gaining life have their purposes, but the real new wrinkle is that Ojutai's Command plays well with Spell Queller. Those two give you nearly perfect coverage on opposing threats: Queller snags the small stuff and O-Com is a gigantic blowout against anything too big for Queller to hit. O-Com's biggest knock for its entire time in Standard has been that its rate is too poor for 4 mana, but if you can create a mana advantage just from the counter mode, then you flip that script on its head. You could cut the 26th land for the 4th D-Com as well, but I don't think that's where you want to be, because...
- 26 lands is the right number. I know the accepted standard is 25, but this deck's biggest weakness is its own mana base, and the 26th land does so much to fix that, not only in terms of adding another card that generates colored mana but also just in adding another land to make land drops.
This is where I would start for EMN testing.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
A few thoughts. I've been playing a Displacer Bant Company deck for a couple months now to much success. I agree with your assessment of Displacer, but I am first going to try cutting him in favor of a more traditional Bant build. This is two-fold. First, while he provides a sense of inevitability if you get him out, he is essentially a 6-drop with the requirement of a colorless land source in place. I rarely played him on curve because he would just die, and then he would be a wasted slot. He has a big target on him because of his ability and the nutty things the deck can do with him. Second, he strains the mana base. I've added at least one more colorless source than what you have because I tended to have him out without a colorless source more than I care to, at which point he's a vanilla 3/3 for 3, making him the worst creature in the deck. So in this sense, he can be both one of the best creatures and one of the worst creatures. He was often one of the creatures I sided out, depending on how his ability would work in the match-up, which then means I have a strained mana base for a creature I'm no longer running. For this reason, I'm going to first try the new Standard without him and see what happens.
Advocate is still good, even without Lumbering Falls. A 4/5 with vigilance for 2 is an amazing rate late game, even if it doesn't turn your mana intensive attackers from 3/3s to 5/5s. That being said, Lumbering Falls shouldn't be cut. I've won games from just swinging with the 3/3. If you drop Displacer, Lumbering Falls can probably go up to 4-of since the deck doesn't need to have as many Coasts for colorless sources.
Spell Queller seems like a powerhouse, as it plays into the tempo aspect of the deck, but I'm not sure 4 main is going to be right. I haven't done any testing, and therefore cannot speak from that aspect of it, but without having good ways of protecting Queller, it is an early tempo swing that can result in us getting blown out later.
I disagree that Jace needs to be in the deck. I've run Jace-less Bant Company for a while and haven't looked back. The card filtering is ok, and the utility of flashing back a spell is good but not great (many games I don't see or cast a Coco). He's extremely underwhelming as a top deck for a game that is seeking to out tempo or out card advantage your opponent. He's also not a top pick from a Coco (unless you're already doing ok or are ahead, at which point, most other creatures will help you close a game quicker). That being said, Lambholt Pacifist has been a house 2 drop for me. I only run 2 in the main (0 in SB), but it's a great play on turn 2, especially on the play when most players won't have a T2 play. Beating for 4 on T3 with Reflector Mage, Advocate, or even holding up for Dromoka's Command or flashing in Bounding Krasis on opponent's turn is a great way to start the game.
I run 26 lands as well, but I run 61 cards to add the extra land. I agree, 26 is necessary.
I'm curious why you didn't include Thalia, Heretic Cathar in your list. She seems like a real powerhouse and plays directly into the tempo theme of the deck. You did mention her in the sideboard, but I think she's mainboard material. A 3/2 first strike is already a decent rate (too bad she's not a 3/3!), but her CIPT ability means their 3-drop is probably delayed or their T3 creature is tapped. She's not a 4-of due to Legendary, but 2-3 should be included for sure. I also noticed that you completely cut Bounding Krasis, who plays into the flash and tempo theme of the deck. This deck likes to hold up mana to do things on the opponent's turn, and you've cut a fair portion of that out of the deck by losing Avacyn and the Krasis (Queller helps make up some of it though).
I'm going to be modifying my deck to test out at the prerelease and will hopefully have additional input later on how some of these cards perform. My deck will look something like this:
4 Sylvan Advocate
4 Duskwatch Recruiter
2 Lambholt Pacifist
4 Reflector Mage
3 Spell Queller
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Bounding Krasis
4 Collected Company
4 Dromoka's Command
Lands (26)
26 TBD
Sideboard, I'm thinking Tamiyo, Avacyn, Negate, Tragic Arrogance, Dragonlord Dromoka, Void Grafter, and a few other goodies.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deck_files/105483-MODO.txt
Or Hoogland's version with Thalia's Lieutenant?
http://themeadery.org/decks/deck/9642/
I don't think this is a good idea. Selfless Spirit provides situational advantage, whereas Duskwatch Recruiter provides advantage the whole game. I can see Selfless Spirit in the deck, maybe more of a sideboard card (meta dependent), but not replacing Duskwatch. Selfless Spirit with flash is better (although still situational, so arguably not better than Duskwatch), but that requires you run and have on the board Rattlechains. Now we're diluting the main deck to cram a card in that is only so-so for the deck, so that's not good.
Here are three scenarios for your consideration. Ask yourself in each scenario, "which card would I prefer to play and/or topdeck: Recruiter or Selfless Spirit?"
1) On the play, T2, opponent played a ETB-tapped land on their T1. Which would be a better 2-drop here, Recruiter or Selfless Spirit?
2) Middle of the game, mirror match (or against humans/GW Token). Both players are top-decking with empty boards, which card is better to draw? Recruiter or Selfless Spirit? What about with a gummed up board?
3) Late game, opponent has a limited board presence, you have no presence. Top-deck mode. What do you hope to draw, Recruiter or Selfess Spirit?
IMO, the only time Spirit was a better play/draw was in the gummed up board state, because it allows you to attack with more impunity. The rest of them, Recruiter is a better play/draw. And these scenarios are all likely on a regular basis in Bant Coco.
Against, GW or mirror, I rarely run into situations of empty boards. It's generally a race and flying is extremely relevant to go over the wall of tokens to hit the planeswalkers. I would definitely hands down prefer this on T2 compared to a duskwatch because I now know my turn 3 drop (tireless tracker or thalia) will be protected, which is extremely relevant vs the mirror
Selfless Spirit is not a good fit for this deck IMO, the reason being that Spell Queller decks are popular right now and against those decks you rarely want to play a 3-drop into open mana, especially if you're holding DromCom or a Queller of your own. In addition this is one of the most removal-light formats in a long time, and a lot of the removal in the format gets around indestructible anyway. If lots of people are playing Fiery Impulse and Ultimate Price in your meta, I'd say go for it, but Recruiter is much better in an open meta at the moment.