And just in case somebody doesn't know it, the "flashback" from kozilek's return is a triggered ability, not a spell, that mean spell queller can't stop it, and dromoka's command can't stop it either.
Right now my plan is to go to the darkside and play BantCoco at game day. Based on the decks that I've seen play at the store; I just feel it will matchup better against them then Ramp will at this time. Plus I'm not sure which version of the "Ramp" I like best right now; since most are not true Ramp decks (since they are not trying to get as many lands in play in the shortest amount of time) and more get as many card types in the graveyard as quickly as possible and cast Emmy via the cost reduction. I just look at this style as more a delirium deck then true ramp deck; but I have all the cards needed to put any of the deck together except I would be short 1 Emmy (I only have 2).
Since I'm having trouble seeing the various decklists on the mothership's website; according to mtgogoldfish; Ramp had 6 players with atleast 6 wins in the standard portion with just Ken's deck putting up a 9-0-1 record.
While the "Flashback" from K-Return can't be stopped by Queller and D-Command; Summary Dismissal can if used to counter the spell that would trigger it out of the graveyard and something that I feel will get added to more sideboards if Ramp continues to do well. So that is something to keep in mind; since it also stops all the on cast triggers; so it is a good sideboard card against Ramp decks. The biggest downside is that it cost 4 mana to cast.
Psy
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Currently Playing:
Jeskai Control:42-23-5 Elves: 44-31-3 Red-Aggro: 18-9-0 B/G Energy 21-6-0
This is what I'll be running for Game Day, combining the tech from Reid Duke's and Ken's deck (collective defiance as Liliana stopper and self-wheel). I've added 1-of Splendid reclamation to get back those milled lands; more useful post-SB when I bring in Ulamog.
Game 1s based on my testing is slightly favourable against CoCo/aggro and Control. Against the mirror/Temurge is a battle of who gets Emrakul first.
Post SB, extra removals vs aggro/coco, haste threats vs control and Ulamog vs mirror/Temurge.
Let me know what you guys think. Thanks!
I tested with Splendid Reclamation a while back and it just seemed worse than Explosive Vegetation, even in a list that was designed to take advantage of it. I'd probably use the slot on a fourth Nissa's Pilgrimage. Also having CD means losing a lot of value from Traverse/Grapple/Vessel in order to find the red sources for it, but the effect is a great fit for the deck so if you think it's good then run it.
Other than that though your list seems pretty solid. Haven't tested with Gaea's Revenge in the sideboard but it looks great at first glance. How's it working out for you?
did some testing and this deck really seems dead. its hard to beat Deep fiend elder, cant race emrakul, and the matchup against Bant is a drag after SB.
Im lost now
Gaea's revenge is bad. Sure it's pro non green spells but that's it. There are better creatures such as Ulvenwald Hydra, ulamog or even greenwarden of murasa. I've been testing against Bant and temurge and it's pretty 50/50 depending on the draws. Elder deep fiend is beatable but not something to worry. Depending on the build of ramp, Reid Duke's list is faster than other builds in achieving to an early emrakul. My friend and I have been testing 1 Chandra over a Dragonlord Atarka and it seems to do great.
did some testing and this test really seems dead. its hard to beat Deep fiend elder, cant race emrakul, and the matchup against Bant is a drag after SB.
Im lost now
What list have you been testing?
Psy
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Currently Playing:
Jeskai Control:42-23-5 Elves: 44-31-3 Red-Aggro: 18-9-0 B/G Energy 21-6-0
In Prep for GP Portland I had tested games against Bant Company, Temur Emerge and G/B Delirium.
Bant company is tougher now that they basically counter pilgrimage or k.Rtn and use avacyn and selfless spirit to negate chandra or K.rtn.
Temur Emerge was timewalking me or preventing me from ramping then throwing in the nail with Emrakul.
G/B delirum felt like G/B control of Seasons past except now they have emrakul.
So you are still trying to play a traditional ramp list I take it?
If that is the case; then yep the meta is very hostile to traditional ramp that is playing Pilgrimage and Explosive. Bant Company is tougher due to Queller's taking both ramp spells and if they are running Selfless Spirit; it is harder to clear their board with K-Returns.
The other two decks are just a little faster in that they can do stuff to delay us long enough to get to their end game before traditional ramp can.
I feel that going forward; some combination of Reid's and Ken's decks are the way for G/R Ramp to be competitive. Both have answers to early game threats and both have ways to get Emmy out by turn 7 or so; which puts most decks on a short clock.
Psy
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Jeskai Control:42-23-5 Elves: 44-31-3 Red-Aggro: 18-9-0 B/G Energy 21-6-0
On splendid reclamation, it's really just insurance for cases where you can't draw lands, and on sideboarded games where you want to reach 10 for Ulamog. 4th Nissa seems excessive with only 8 Forests.
The 2 creature slots in the SB currently occupied by Gaea's revenge are flex options. I'm now experimenting with watcher in the web as a Bant Coco clogger since they usually side out removals. The spiders (Ish and watcher) can buy you that 1-2 turns to survive. Collective defiance is flexible enough to even skirt around spell queller by casting at max escalate cost.
I usually Traverse early to fetch for Mountain to get to RR for it and Chandra.
I think this deck's main weakness is Game 2 against Black with transgress the mind and infinite obliteration. I usually just load up on threats incl Ulamog and hope for the best.
Btw, this deck will tend to clump a lot so table shuffle after every game is a must.
Collective Defiance has a converted mana cost of 3 no matter how many times you pay the escalate. The only spells that have a different CMC on the stack than to what's printed in the card are spells with X in their mana cost. This means it will always be hit by Spell Queller.
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In Lorwyn's brief evenings, the sun pauses at the horizon long enough for a certain species of violet to bloom with the fragrance of mischief.
I have been testing with Ulamog over the Atarka main and it seems to feel better. The Bant matchup is pretty much decided on the dice roll. If we are on the play I feel it's 55/45 our favor and vice versa as they will just Bant you out. U/R thermo seems rough as well so I have thrown in an Orbs of Warding in the board which seems to help as well. Not sure this is the plan moving forward but I feel like Ramp should have a better showing than Cat Pact lol.
I've tweaked my version again to run 2x Traverse and 4x Shrines. This is because I've noticed that an early Vessel or Grapple hitting a Traverse but no land is just sad. Temurge had the same issue, according to John Finkel's article in CFB.
Also, running Shrines allow you to run Ulamog over WB, which works well since Emrakul and Atarka are the preferred 7-drop. This also works better when you side-in Hydra to really up the ramp factor.
Traverse has so much upside I don't think it's worth cutting. I haven't tried this mana base yet as I had Reid Dukes's list but cutting the drownyard temple for a sanctum and waste may be the way to go for the ramp mirror. I've tried Chandra over 1 Atarka and it helped fuel delirium but didn't seem to do as much as Ulamog.
Ishkana helps stabilize against band coco and humans. I've liked it so far in the deck but also feel like 1 Chandra should be so,E where. I understand the idea of double red might be hard to get but I have been running 1 less forest for another cinder glade and it seems to be fine. I know it might now seem big but I haven't had problems with it coming in tapped.
I've ended up going to the dark side and have been playing BantCoCo since EMN was released. There were just too many decks that were preying on the slower traditional build of ramp at the store and instead of reworking the deck and purchasing any of the new cards that I would need for a G/R Delirium ramp deck. It was easier to just pull out BantCoCo which I already had built but wasn't playing and add the cards that I wanted to that deck.
So I've not played it due to meta considerations and with rotation being a month away; I'll have to wait and see what the new set releases before I decide what to play when CoCo rotates.
Psy
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Jeskai Control:42-23-5 Elves: 44-31-3 Red-Aggro: 18-9-0 B/G Energy 21-6-0
I've been testing online with a reclamation ramp list that has been surprisingly consistent. Feel free to give suggestions, particularly on the sideboard, where I'm a bit lost as to what to include.
As you may notice, I'm a bit top heavy, with 2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and 2 Emrakul, the Promised End. Let me just say that Splendid Reclamation ramps ridiculously fast. In this deck, a turn 5 Ula or Emy is actually quite common, often resulting in an insta-concede from my opponent. Simularly, going from G/R to G/B/r may seem like an unusual choice. I would testify before a court of law that going heavy black was the best choice I made while constructing this deck. Getting to play maindeck Languish has been nothing short of a godsend vs. humans and the like, while The Gitrog Monster, Hissing Quagmire and Ishkanah, Grafwidow activations let me grind with the best of 'em.
Also, do y'all think it might be better to simply switch to Temur for this style of ramp? Blue would give me access to cards like pieces of the puzzle which would help me both mill faster and dig for copies of splendid reclamation. Just something to consider.
PsylockeSmythe, as a bant company player how would you change my deck to be most effective against bant company?
What would you add in the Sideboard, and would you gut anything from the main deck.
Sorry for the late reply; my free time has been limited for the last few days.
I'll start by saying that I've not had to face Ramp since I've been playing BantCoCo. I was pretty much the only person playing (Ramp) it at the store. Looking over your list; I would say you need a way to trigger K-Return out of the graveyard more. You only have 2 Emmy's and 2 World Breakers which will trigger K-Return. So finding a more reliable way to do that would be a must if you expect to face a lot of BantCoCo. DLA; besides Emmy and World Breaker is the only other creature that I would worry about facing with how I have my deck built game 1. I'm not sure how your manabase is setup but you are running 6 creature/spells that require R and 3 that require U and while you have tutors to try and get the land you need; 8 of those cards require 2 mana to play which can slow you down.
Psy
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Currently Playing:
Jeskai Control:42-23-5 Elves: 44-31-3 Red-Aggro: 18-9-0 B/G Energy 21-6-0
I've been looking for new ramp spells after rotation. Well i'll be honest I didn't look that hard. Does ramp have anything besides the hedrons?
Natural Connection. It's a 3 mana instant that can get you any basic. In most cases it is just worse than Nissa's Pilgrimage. If you want to be casting turn 4 Emrakuls, I think playing Energy cards in a Delerium shell is where to go. Aetherworks Marvel is the fastest Emrakul around.
Does this deck survive rotation? Looks like it loses dragonlord atarka, and nissa's pilgrimage. maybe nissa, vastwood seer. I don't really play standard but like ramp decks. What replaces Nissa's pilgrimage? I'm guessing natural connection
Losing nissa's pilgrimage, explosive vegetation and dragonlord atarka is huge. If the format gets faster, which I think is the case, then Ramp will not be a good choice going forward. I will still play my ramp deck this friday and this is the list I'm thinking of playing.
Losing nissa's pilgrimage, explosive vegetation and dragonlord atarka is huge. If the format gets faster, which I think is the case, then Ramp will not be a good choice going forward. I will still play my ramp deck this friday and this is the list I'm thinking of playing.
Im surprised your still running that kind of list, I think most have moved to the RG delirium build with Emrakul.
Nissa, Vital Force isnt standard legal right now and we cant talk about new cards until the release date, correct me if im wrong because I would LOVE to talk about my ideas!
Right now my plan is to go to the darkside and play BantCoco at game day. Based on the decks that I've seen play at the store; I just feel it will matchup better against them then Ramp will at this time. Plus I'm not sure which version of the "Ramp" I like best right now; since most are not true Ramp decks (since they are not trying to get as many lands in play in the shortest amount of time) and more get as many card types in the graveyard as quickly as possible and cast Emmy via the cost reduction. I just look at this style as more a delirium deck then true ramp deck; but I have all the cards needed to put any of the deck together except I would be short 1 Emmy (I only have 2).
Since I'm having trouble seeing the various decklists on the mothership's website; according to mtgogoldfish; Ramp had 6 players with atleast 6 wins in the standard portion with just Ken's deck putting up a 9-0-1 record.
While the "Flashback" from K-Return can't be stopped by Queller and D-Command; Summary Dismissal can if used to counter the spell that would trigger it out of the graveyard and something that I feel will get added to more sideboards if Ramp continues to do well. So that is something to keep in mind; since it also stops all the on cast triggers; so it is a good sideboard card against Ramp decks. The biggest downside is that it cost 4 mana to cast.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
4 Traverse the ulvenwald
4 Vessel of nascency
3 Hedron crawler
3 Nissa's pilgrimage
1 Splendid reclamation
2 Hedron archive
4 Grapple with the past
Removal (9)
3 Kozilek's return
2 Collective defiance
2 Fiery impulse
2 Chandra, flamecaller
2 Ishkanah, grafwidow
2 Dragonlord Atarka
2 World breaker
2 Emrakul, the promised end
Lands (22)
2 Shrine of the forsaken gods
2 Drownyard temple
2 Sanctum of Ugin
2 Cinder Glade
4 Game trail
2 Mountain
8 Forest
1 Cinder glade
2 Rending volley
2 Fall of the titans
3 Gnarlwood dryad
3 Reality smasher
2 Gaea's revenge
2 Ulamog, the ceaseless hunger
Game 1s based on my testing is slightly favourable against CoCo/aggro and Control. Against the mirror/Temurge is a battle of who gets Emrakul first.
Post SB, extra removals vs aggro/coco, haste threats vs control and Ulamog vs mirror/Temurge.
Let me know what you guys think. Thanks!
Other than that though your list seems pretty solid. Haven't tested with Gaea's Revenge in the sideboard but it looks great at first glance. How's it working out for you?
Im lost now
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
What list have you been testing?
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
Bant company is tougher now that they basically counter pilgrimage or k.Rtn and use avacyn and selfless spirit to negate chandra or K.rtn.
Temur Emerge was timewalking me or preventing me from ramping then throwing in the nail with Emrakul.
G/B delirum felt like G/B control of Seasons past except now they have emrakul.
Sucks.....not seeing an out.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
If that is the case; then yep the meta is very hostile to traditional ramp that is playing Pilgrimage and Explosive. Bant Company is tougher due to Queller's taking both ramp spells and if they are running Selfless Spirit; it is harder to clear their board with K-Returns.
The other two decks are just a little faster in that they can do stuff to delay us long enough to get to their end game before traditional ramp can.
I feel that going forward; some combination of Reid's and Ken's decks are the way for G/R Ramp to be competitive. Both have answers to early game threats and both have ways to get Emmy out by turn 7 or so; which puts most decks on a short clock.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
The 2 creature slots in the SB currently occupied by Gaea's revenge are flex options. I'm now experimenting with watcher in the web as a Bant Coco clogger since they usually side out removals. The spiders (Ish and watcher) can buy you that 1-2 turns to survive.
Collective defiance is flexible enough to even skirt around spell queller by casting at max escalate cost.
I usually Traverse early to fetch for Mountain to get to RR for it and Chandra.
I think this deck's main weakness is Game 2 against Black with transgress the mind and infinite obliteration. I usually just load up on threats incl Ulamog and hope for the best.
Btw, this deck will tend to clump a lot so table shuffle after every game is a must.
Collective Defiance has a converted mana cost of 3 no matter how many times you pay the escalate. The only spells that have a different CMC on the stack than to what's printed in the card are spells with X in their mana cost. This means it will always be hit by Spell Queller.
1 Nissa, Vastwood seer
1 Dragonlord Atarka
2 World Breaker
2 Emrakul, the Promised End
2 Ishkana, Grafwidow
2 Ulvenwald Hydra
2 Hedron Crawler
Sorcery (10)
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Gather the Pack
4 Nissa's Pilgrimage
Instant (10)
4 Grapple the Past
3 Kozilek's Return
3 Fiery Impulse
2 Hedron Archive
Enchantment (4)
4 Vessel of Nascency
Land (22)
1 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Wastes
2 Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
10 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Cinder Glade
4 Game Trail
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Caustic Caterpillar
1 Shaman of Forgotten Ways
2 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Rending Volley
2 Gnarlwood Dryad
2 Den Protector
2 Pulse of Murasa
I have been testing with Ulamog over the Atarka main and it seems to feel better. The Bant matchup is pretty much decided on the dice roll. If we are on the play I feel it's 55/45 our favor and vice versa as they will just Bant you out. U/R thermo seems rough as well so I have thrown in an Orbs of Warding in the board which seems to help as well. Not sure this is the plan moving forward but I feel like Ramp should have a better showing than Cat Pact lol.
Also, running Shrines allow you to run Ulamog over WB, which works well since Emrakul and Atarka are the preferred 7-drop. This also works better when you side-in Hydra to really up the ramp factor.
Who else in unimpressed with Ishkanah? I still feel like I would rather ramp into chandra. I dunno.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
I've ended up going to the dark side and have been playing BantCoCo since EMN was released. There were just too many decks that were preying on the slower traditional build of ramp at the store and instead of reworking the deck and purchasing any of the new cards that I would need for a G/R Delirium ramp deck. It was easier to just pull out BantCoCo which I already had built but wasn't playing and add the cards that I wanted to that deck.
So I've not played it due to meta considerations and with rotation being a month away; I'll have to wait and see what the new set releases before I decide what to play when CoCo rotates.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
1 Hedron Archive
Creatures (13)
1 Dragonlord Atarka
2 Emrakul, the Promised End
2 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
4 Sylvan Advocate
1 The Gitrog Monster
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 World Breaker
Enchantment (4)
4 Vessel of Nascency
Instant (7)
4 Grapple with the Past
3 Kozilek's Return
Land (25)
1 Cinder Glade
2 Drownyard Temple
3 Evolving Wilds
8 Forest
2 Hissing Quagmire
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Mountain
2 Sanctum of Ugin
2 Swamp
1 Gather the Pack
2 Languish
3 Nissa's Pilgrimage
4 Splendid Reclamation
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Dragonlord Atarka
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Languish
1 Mountain
2 Orbs of Warding
2 Radiant Flames
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Tranverse the Ulvenwald
2 World Breaker
As you may notice, I'm a bit top heavy, with 2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and 2 Emrakul, the Promised End. Let me just say that Splendid Reclamation ramps ridiculously fast. In this deck, a turn 5 Ula or Emy is actually quite common, often resulting in an insta-concede from my opponent. Simularly, going from G/R to G/B/r may seem like an unusual choice. I would testify before a court of law that going heavy black was the best choice I made while constructing this deck. Getting to play maindeck Languish has been nothing short of a godsend vs. humans and the like, while The Gitrog Monster, Hissing Quagmire and Ishkanah, Grafwidow activations let me grind with the best of 'em.
Sorry for the late reply; my free time has been limited for the last few days.
I'll start by saying that I've not had to face Ramp since I've been playing BantCoCo. I was pretty much the only person playing (Ramp) it at the store. Looking over your list; I would say you need a way to trigger K-Return out of the graveyard more. You only have 2 Emmy's and 2 World Breakers which will trigger K-Return. So finding a more reliable way to do that would be a must if you expect to face a lot of BantCoCo. DLA; besides Emmy and World Breaker is the only other creature that I would worry about facing with how I have my deck built game 1. I'm not sure how your manabase is setup but you are running 6 creature/spells that require R and 3 that require U and while you have tutors to try and get the land you need; 8 of those cards require 2 mana to play which can slow you down.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
Natural Connection. It's a 3 mana instant that can get you any basic. In most cases it is just worse than Nissa's Pilgrimage. If you want to be casting turn 4 Emrakuls, I think playing Energy cards in a Delerium shell is where to go. Aetherworks Marvel is the fastest Emrakul around.
4 World Breaker
3 Ulamog, The Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, The Promised End
2 Ulvenwald Hydra
Spell:
3 Chandra, Flamecaller
2 Nissa, Vital Force
4 Kozilek's Return
4 Weirding Wood
4 Hedron Archive
2 natural Connection
2 Nissa's Renewal
4 Oath of Nissa
9 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Wastes
4 Cinder Glade
1 Game Trail
4 Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
3 Sanctum of Ugin
1 blighted Woodland
Im surprised your still running that kind of list, I think most have moved to the RG delirium build with Emrakul.
Nissa, Vital Force isnt standard legal right now and we cant talk about new cards until the release date, correct me if im wrong because I would LOVE to talk about my ideas!
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91