Here's what I'm gonna run. I've played it against my friend's G/W good stuff deck and it has been fairly consistent. This list very close to Seth's list with a few tweaks of my own. I do like the primarily black deck with a splash of blue and white. Jace and the Sphinx are the only cards with a double color casting cost outside of black, which I think helps with the consistency. I'm not set on the sideboard and wondering what I should remove for Virulent Plague as I'm sure there will be several token decks running around the shop.
EDIT: @Celestral - we are trying to have a civil conversation about a deck type. You're attitude, especially post-Pro Tour, has been anything but civil. It is okay to disagree and have differing ideas and opinions on things, that's part of the discussion aspect of forums. We are simply offering up our ideas and feedback. Given your recent attitude I've been half tempted to create a new Esper Control thread where a more civil discussion can take place. Yes, you were right about few things. You've made that clear. Now please, get off your damn high horse so that we can have a civil discussion about the many flavors of the deck that are out there without having to worry about you being hyper-critical of flavors that are not your own or about opinions that disagree with yours.
Calling me ignorant and ganging up on me is going to cause me to behave ignorant. Period. If you come at me sideways, I'm going to clapback. Be civil if you want to be civil but you won't find civility in attacking me.
Following the pro tour results I had my gloat moment because I had caught nothing but negativity and criticism for my Esper deck since the original thread in New Card Discussion. I've moved on, made a primer and posted a new decklist and am still getting flak. I'm not going to be pleasant when encountering unpleasantness mod warnings or not.
@Celestreal: We're not ganging up on you. We're pointing out potential problems with your deck and backing up our statements with what I consider reasonable criticism. The fact is that producing clue tokens has let aggro and midrange decks get back into the game against us before, and on weighing the risks vs. the rewards, it's not worth it in this list right now. The fact is that right now TITI isn't making waves in the list. The fact that when you say things like...
<Dang, you girls mad or nah? Panties twisted in every direction. >
Ya'll are real butthurt over that 1x Gideon aren't you?
So naysay if you will, but <your track record is horribad so I put exactly zero stock in it.>
...that doesn't help you defend your points and it doesn't make you seem serious, it just makes you seem angry. We're all trying to, as you said in the title, "rejoice and be merry", but it's hard when one person is repeatedly insulting and belittling the others. This is the last time I'll ask you to stop. Please, try not to be so sure of yourself that you can't accept critique. Now...
@Dusk 707: I'd consider cutting a Dispel or a Negate for the Virulent Plague, probably leaning toward the Negate if you expect lots of Company. My reasoning is that between your discard and your counter suite, you'll probably be able to handle the first Company or two and stabilize, and once you've got walkers on the board, it's going to get tougher for them to win.
I never post, yet I do spend a lot of time in the forum. Esper control, and any control deck to be fair, are my favorite decks.
I just decided to post to try to calm things down a bit and move the conversation back to magic. You all DID gang up on Celestreal, and some of you where outright disrespectful towards him. Having said that, is true he was a bit on a high horse (he admitted that), and his last response was not civil either. So, how about you all recognize your part of the fault and move on to discussing magic? Thanks.
Regarding the deck, I do agree with Fitzlock regarding the importance of discard effects vs hard matchups (like Eldrazi). There should be some in the SB at least.
I do agree with Celestreal regarding the extra Sphinx in the SB, is the single most powerful card vs the mirror and control decks. I also do like having access to at least 1 To The Slaughter, it saved my life several times.
Virulent Plague is a MUST in the SB, the card makes token decks so much easier. Ormendahl had 0 activations in my games since I paired Virulent Plague with my removal suite.
Going back to the topic of To The Slaughter, I wil mention one play that explains some of its perks: I was playing a RG Googles deck, I had Narset in play and just petition on had, I used her minus to rebound Petition. I grabed Sorin for extra gas, in his turn he plays Chandra, kills Narset with the hasty tokens, in my turn I get TTS with the rebounded Petition, killed Chandra in the upkeep with the 3 black mana, and played Sorin in my main. I won that game. Sure, is not the perfect removal, is bad in some scenarios, tho is great as part of the toolbox for Dark petition. Being an instant goes a long way in some cases.
I never post, yet I do spend a lot of time in the forum. Esper control, and any control deck to be fair, are my favorite decks.
I just decided to post to try to calm things down a bit and move the conversation back to magic. You all DID gang up on Celestreal, and some of you where outright disrespectful towards him. Having said that, is true he was a bit on a high horse (he admitted that), and his last response was not civil either. So, how about you all recognize your part of the fault and move on to discussing magic? Thanks.
Regarding the deck, I do agree with Fitzlock regarding the importance of discard effects vs hard matchups (like Eldrazi). There should be some in the SB at least.
I do agree with Celestreal regarding the extra Sphinx in the SB, is the single most powerful card vs the mirror and control decks. I also do like having access to at least 1 To The Slaughter, it saved my life several times.
Virulent Plague is a MUST in the SB, the card makes token decks so much easier. Ormendahl had 0 activations in my games since I paired Virulent Plague with my removal suite.
Going back to the topic of To The Slaughter, I wil mention one play that explains some of its perks: I was playing a RG Googles deck, I had Narset in play and just petition on had, I used her minus to rebound Petition. I grabed Sorin for extra gas, in his turn he plays Chandra, kills Narset with the hasty tokens, in my turn I get TTS with the rebounded Petition, killed Chandra in the upkeep with the 3 black mana, and played Sorin in my main. I won that game. Sure, is not the perfect removal, is bad in some scenarios, tho is great as part of the toolbox for Dark petition. Being an instant goes a long way in some cases.
Apologies, facundoorzabal. It must seem quite childish in here right now. For my part, I'm not intending to gang up on anyone, and I'm sorry if it's come across like that (I just see several people all disagreeing with one person, not a mob mentality). It is, however, very difficult to have a productive discussion with someone who responds to any criticism with an aggressive defense that can be summarized as "I was right before, so I'm right now". Your scenario against ramp with To the Slaughter is a little bit corner case, but it certainly demonstrates the power of the card. I will try a copy in my 75 based on your comment and I'll let you know how that goes.
There are, unfortunately, a few comments I feel like I need to respond to because they are - again - simply not true.
It's for control/mirror match ups and is a million times better than anything you listed. In mirrors, it'll be a race to get Sphinx out and I'd rather have two in that situation. Your still caught up in your Esper Dragons mentality which has already been proven to be sub-optimal at best. Those dragons are crap, and I have plenty of blue in my deck to cast Sphinx.
Putting aside how childish this comment is and how irrelevant my feelings on Esper Dragons are, Dragonlord Silumgar is just as powerful as the Sphinx against control or in the mirror. Whilst he doesn't have hexproof, he does not die to our primary removal spells (Languish, Ultimate Price, Grasp of Darkness). As a result, he requires a Sorcery speed response and because of that, he's able to easily steal a Planeswalker and immediately use its ultimate ability resulting in a huge 2-for-1 tempo swing. The only instant-speed response to Dragonlord Silumgar is, ironically, a Silumgar's Command to return him to hand (or a To the Slaughter without a Shambling Vent to sacrifice instead). That's all without considering how good a 3/5 flying Deathtouch creature is against basically everything ever. It is foolish to dismiss him so casually as he has consistently demonstrated how powerful the Sower of Temptation model of creature can be. He was monstrously powerful even when Hero's Downfall was everywhere, and he's certainly powerful now. The list of varying Planeswalker ultimates I have stolen with him since his printing is not small. I look forward to adding Sorin, Grim Nemesis and Jace, Unraveler of Secrets to his list of kills.
Manfield's main deck only has two cards that can kill a Planeswalker, and no cards to kill a mirror Sphinx nor large indestructibles like Ormendahl (other than that double Grasp nonsense).
This is just factually incorrect and I can't believe I even need to point it out. I assume the "two cards" mentioned are the 2x Ruinous Path, so I will point out that one of the four modes of Silumgar's Command destroys a Planeswalker (whilst another counters a Planeswalker on the stack), and there are two copies of Sorin, Grim Nemesis that have an ability that specifically targets and damages Planeswalkers, as well as the 2x Spell Shrivel to potentially counter them. Supplementing these in the sideboard are 2x Anguished Unmaking, 1x Transgress the Mind, 2x Duress and 2x Negate. Across the 75, that is 14 cards that answer Planeswalkers with 7 of them being in the main deck. This is without considering any attacks that could be made by Shambling Vent or Sphinx of the Final Word. As for large indestructible creatures, Infinite Obliteration can answer a lot of them and additional support from Transgress the Mind and Anguished Unmaking minimizes the concern. Against Ormendahl in particular, Virulent Plague is excellent and likely irremovable as we expect Dromoka's Command to be cut after game 1. Using Silumgar's Command to return Ormendahl to hand safely locked away in his Abbey after your opponent has sacrificed their entire board (or a good portion of it) is very satisfying. As for the Sphinx, he is an issue but Planar Outburst is one more answer than "none".
The meta is still young, and Thing in the Ice isn't counted out yet. The UR Control Deck uses 4x of him, and boarding him in after the opponent boards out their removal is no more risky than boarding in JVP.
Cutting the attitude out of this comment, I will agree that boarding in Thing in the Ice is no less risky than boarding in Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. It is, however, a lot less powerful. The UR Control deck does indeed play four copies of Thing, however that deck is also built very differently and with transforming that creature in mind. A transformed Jace, Telepath Unbound is considerably more powerful than Awoken Horror for reasons which I hope will be obvious; he provides extra copies of all our most powerful non-Planeswalker spells, he slows down aggression and can win the game by himself (after drawing at least one card in his creature form) without any added investment other than paying his initial mana cost. I will maintain that 2x Duress or 2x Transgress the Mind in place of the 2x Thing in the Ice will prove more powerful against a multitude of decks and with a much lower opportunity cost.
I have tried to put my opinions across clearly and in a straight-forward manner, backing them up as much as possible with clear examples and likely interactions. Hopefully you will do the same and we can actually have a discussion for once.
So I took my deck to FNM last night (first time being able to play it out-and-about due to my schedule). Good results, but I got some unforunate pairings.
Round 1: Mono-White Human Aggro
This match up, our decks shine. He would rapidly put cheap creatures out, and I would Languish them the next turn. One game I got really lucky and was able to use all 4 of my Languish. I went 2-0 with him, and my Walkers were never in danger. When those things get going, the card draw is crazy. I kept a full hand and never missed a land drop.
Round 2: Bant Company
Another favorable match up for us! Had a few close calls when he stuck Sylvan Advocates and I didn't have Ultimate Price or a general removal spell handy, but I also went 2-0 this round.
Round 3: UB Control
This is where the night got more complicated, and it was in this round and the next one that I identified my only real weakness: Pick the Brain and Transgress the Mind. This match up was agonizing. He Transgress'd my Sphinx out of my opening hand (which would have been able to kill him so much sooner had it been cast). Game 1 lasted 45 minutes. Had a close call when he raised 9 zombies, but I hit them with a Declaration in Stone and wiped them all out. I got a Sorin to stick and ticked his health down with the +1 and 2 tag teaming Shambling Vents. We got maybe 2 minutes into Game 2 when turns was called and we just agreed to Draw.
Round 4: Grixis TITI Homebrew Controlish Tempoish Something
This deck was a nightmare. It came out looking something like the UR Control, then he started playing some black. He had a lot of Read the Bones and Painful Truths as well as 4x Transgress the Mind. Game 1, I just had really bad draw. I got flooded and didn't draw any spot removal, so TITI flipped on turn 5 or 6 and beat my face.
Game 3 was the worst. He hit me with Transgress the Mind on Turns 2 AND 3, cleaving Narset and Sorin from my hand. He also had a fist full of counterspell and was able to defend his TITI from my removal. He actually forced me to top deck while his TITI ripped into me. I managed to remove TITI but he had awoken a land with Scatter to the Winds which was able to finish me.
The guy has been playing control for 8 years and said he was impressed with me and my deck. Took some of the sting off, but the match had given me a headache!
Conclusions:
Playing against other control decks sucks. It basically becomes a race to get my Sphinx of the Final Word out to stop the counterspell onslaught, then using my own counterspell to safely cast and defend my Walkers. It's slow, grindy, and not a lot of fun.
We are extremely vulnerable to hand hate. Transgressing us on turn 2 can be disastrous, especially when they follow it up with a robust counterspell suite. I'm not sure what a good solution would be, other than a spell that gives us hexproof (Orbs of Warding?) or hoping we have Negate and the mana to start casting it on turn 2.
We destroy creature-based decks with ease. My opponents were extremely frustrated that they couldn't keep anything on the battlefield for more than a turn. Languish is the real MVP and I'm never bummed to see it come into my hand in these match-ups.
So I took my deck to FNM last night (first time being able to play it out-and-about due to my schedule). Good results, but I got some unforunate pairings.
Round 1: Mono-White Human Aggro
This match up, our decks shine. He would rapidly put cheap creatures out, and I would Languish them the next turn. One game I got really lucky and was able to use all 4 of my Languish. I went 2-0 with him, and my Walkers were never in danger. When those things get going, the card draw is crazy. I kept a full hand and never missed a land drop.
Round 2: Bant Company
Another favorable match up for us! Had a few close calls when he stuck Sylvan Advocates and I didn't have Ultimate Price or a general removal spell handy, but I also went 2-0 this round.
Round 3: UB Control
This is where the night got more complicated, and it was in this round and the next one that I identified my only real weakness: Pick the Brain and Transgress the Mind. This match up was agonizing. He Transgress'd my Sphinx out of my opening hand (which would have been able to kill him so much sooner had it been cast). Game 1 lasted 45 minutes. Had a close call when he raised 9 zombies, but I hit them with a Declaration in Stone and wiped them all out. I got a Sorin to stick and ticked his health down with the +1 and 2 tag teaming Shambling Vents. We got maybe 2 minutes into Game 2 when turns was called and we just agreed to Draw.
Round 4: Grixis TITI Homebrew Controlish Tempoish Something
This deck was a nightmare. It came out looking something like the UR Control, then he started playing some black. He had a lot of Read the Bones and Painful Truths as well as 4x Transgress the Mind. Game 1, I just had really bad draw. I got flooded and didn't draw any spot removal, so TITI flipped on turn 5 or 6 and beat my face.
Game 3 was the worst. He hit me with Transgress the Mind on Turns 2 AND 3, cleaving Narset and Sorin from my hand. He also had a fist full of counterspell and was able to defend his TITI from my removal. He actually forced me to top deck while his TITI ripped into me. I managed to remove TITI but he had awoken a land with Scatter to the Winds which was able to finish me.
The guy has been playing control for 8 years and said he was impressed with me and my deck. Took some of the sting off, but the match had given me a headache!
Conclusions:
Playing against other control decks sucks. It basically becomes a race to get my Sphinx of the Final Word out to stop the counterspell onslaught, then using my own counterspell to safely cast and defend my Walkers. It's slow, grindy, and not a lot of fun.
We are extremely vulnerable to hand hate. Transgressing us on turn 2 can be disastrous, especially when they follow it up with a robust counterspell suite. I'm not sure what a good solution would be, other than a spell that gives us hexproof (Orbs of Warding?) or hoping we have Negate and the mana to start casting it on turn 2.
We destroy creature-based decks with ease. My opponents were extremely frustrated that they couldn't keep anything on the battlefield for more than a turn. Languish is the real MVP and I'm never bummed to see it come into my hand in these match-ups.
Thanks for the report. The situation you described with the hand hate is avoidable; Its best to never keep an opening hand with win-cons in a control deck imo, but also sounds like bad luck. So many methods to get what we need that it's not worth keeping sorin in opening hand.
Other than that, sounds like you had a good time with good results!
I'll post my results later, as I'm trying esper control today at Game Day (have been playing B/w control).
We are extremely vulnerable to hand hate. Transgressing us on turn 2 can be disastrous, especially when they follow it up with a robust counterspell suite. I'm not sure what a good solution would be, other than a spell that gives us hexproof (Orbs of Warding?) or hoping we have Negate and the mana to start casting it on turn 2.
After sidebording I have the full set of Duress + 2 Transgress the Mind + 4-6 counters for the mirror matches. I am not saying my strat is the best, but I do honestly think you should have 3-4 Duress in your deck. T1 kill your best card in hand is amazing. Not only attacks his hand, but protects yours too.
Honestly I couldn't find a single time when I wanted to board in Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, so I can't really defend him being in the sideboard anymore. I think I'm going to axe him for Duress or maybe Transgress the Mind. Leaning towards Duress so I could turn 1 cast it.
Back from game day. Ended up 3-1-1 for 5th place( out of 23). Decided to drop one Narset for another Ob Nixilis, cuz I wanted the extra removal. Also dropped 1x Jace from the board for another wipe.
Basic BW control package except no avacyn and uses reality smashers.
Game one: I had all walkers online it was simply a matter of waiting for Sphinx because we both fighting each other with shambling vents haha. I countered his sorin and he scooped
Game 2:he 2x duress and 2x transgress me. Zero removal left in my hand. 2x reality smashers. gG
We decided to draw cuz we got to final 5
Match 2: werewolves 2-0
Easy as pie.
Match 3: werewolves 2.0. 1-2
Took nearly to time cap getting game 1 and 2 done. I burned through half my deck dealing with arlinn kord and those 3/3 haste flip creatures ( I forget their name) with his 3x howlpack resurgence.
Game 3 I mulled to 4 ended up with island, plains, swamp, languish..ultimate price on scry. Drew 3x evolving wilds. Never seen a hand that bad. I wouldnt have kept, but we had 10 mins left and I didn't want another draw.
Match 4: 2-1 UW humans.
Hot damn ojutai and always watching is annoying.
Game 1 went pretty easily with good draws. Languish and Ob nix/sorin did plenty of work.
Game 2: turn 4 always watching, turn 5 ojutai..did my best, but hes a nightmare.
Game 3: turn 3 infinite obliteration, still took me to turn 4 of final 5 to win.
Match 5: green eldrazi ramp. 2-0
Easy match up, remove everything, free cards from thought-knot seer. Shazaam.
Conclusion: all said and done, I was happy with the deck. I wasn't as happy with silumgar's command as I thought I would be. It was decent, but I usually decided agaianst paying 5 when most creatures were over 3/3.
I felt like my loss to werewolves wasn't the decks' problem, so I can't fault back luck and bad draws. As I am used to B/w control, I realllllllly missed secure the wastes and declaration in stone. The 2 mana removal just seems to slide into so many more plays...that said, I don't think you can fit them into the deck..i wouldnt wanna drop more than 1 card.
I didn't Bring Jace in even 1 time.
DARK PETITION was the best card in the deck, every game.
Well, After playing a few dozen games in MTGO Tornament Quees, here are my opinions regarding some controversial spells in the deck:
*Spell Shrivel is bad, so bad. All the pros said it was bad, but they played it because they had nothing better. I do not like playing such a bad card MD, so I tried other cards and afer better results I removed both copies from my 75.
*To The Slaughter, as a one of, is winning me games vs control while not being horrible vs creatures. Versus control delirium is easy to get, and becomes huge game when it does. Just today I played the mirror, was a slow grindy game, and at one point we both had a Big Jace ticking. He plays the Sphinx, and that usually means you lose, but To The Slaughter rescued me from a hard spot, killed both his permanents with it and won easily from there.
*Oath of Jace, came in as a one of replacing a Spell Shrivel. While not insane, I am very happy with it. In game one vs control decks, you are left with lots of dead cards in your hands. The oath feals like draw 3 every time I play it. And do not get me started with the sweet synergy with Narset and/or Sorin when you have two planewalkers in play, it just seals the game vs slow decks.
*Negate is amazing. I MD one instead of Spell Shrivel, and I was able to cast it a LOT more than the replaced card. 2 mana instant in the key part here, you can counter all the cards you really want to counter with it, mostly planewalkers and COCOS, since we already have plenty of removal and sweepers vs creatures. I used to get stuck with Spell Shrivel a lot in the early game, but Negate feals like a real card instead, and is never dead.
*Languish, I know, the card is perfect for the meta, but 4 is too many most of the times, went down to 3, and after many games vs creatures decks I do not miss the 4th copy. And because of that I got an extra slot for a card that is not dead vs control.
*Duress Feels amazing every time I cast it, and horrible when is being cast on me. Sure, sometimes, rarely actually, misses... but in a deck that can generate so much card draw, is barely an issue. Not only I get to disrupts their game plan, it gives me perfect information to know how to play. It is so good I even get it with Dark petition when the game ask me to. Some times, your best play is to take their best play before they play it. I have 2 MD atm.
3-0-1 with intentional draw into Top 8 at Game Day today, split prizes with the rest of the cut and left with those who were interested staying to fight over the playmat (not something I care about). Easy peasy.
Game 1 - He had an anemic draw which I punished with an early, unimpeded Narset which swiftly generated an emblem to lock him out.
Game 2 - Orbs of Warding. GG.
Round 2: GB Sacrifice
Game 1 - He over-extended with Cryptolith Rite, playing almost his entire hand into my Languish on turn 4. On turn 6 I rebounded another Languish and he conceded.
Game 2 - He cast two copies of Transgress the Mind in the early game and missed entirely. I was then able to draw a Dark Petition to find and play Kalitas, which he wasn't able to answer.
Note - It was obvious this guy was frustrated, but I have never felt so uncomfortable in a match. "Of course you draw removal non-stop" and "What a ****ing joke" are not acceptable comments to make towards your opponent. My deck is Planeswalkers and removal spells, buddy. What do you want from me?
Top 8: I'm going home, have fun scrapping over the playmat! (not trying to be arrogant, but I've won these things in the past and would never use the mat so better it goes to someone else and I don't have to waste anyone's time, least of all mine)
Magic's great. This deck's great. I'm great. Everything's great.
Okay. Here goes. A less-than-stellar report for everyone. I went 2-3 at Gameday.
Round One: Red/Black Dragons (2-0): His strategy involved using the red thopter-producing creatures to clog up the game until the dragons could take over, with Westvale Abbey as a backup plan. Game One, I swept the board twice and had spot removal for his Thunderbreak Regent, then Sphinx and a few walkers took over. Game Two, I got out Virulent Plague to stop the token rush, then had to deal with back to back to back Dragonlord Kolaghan. Once that was done with, I was able to stabilize with Sorin and then take the match.
Round Two: Mono-Red Eldrazi (0-2): I have a hard time figuring this matchup out, to be honest. It seems like so much of what they do is must-answer, and Chandra is a real problem for me. In the first game, I got ran over by elementals after fighting through Thought-Knot Seer and some thopter tokens. I boarded in 2 Anguished Unmaking, 2 Dragonlord Silumgar, and some Transgress the Mind. Game Two, I made a misplay when I attacked his Chandra with a Shambling Vent instead of dropping Sorin and using him to nuke her for the life. His next swing was a Reality Smasher and 2 elementals for 13, exactly lethal.
Round Three: Red/Black Vampires (0-2): Game One, I stabilized at 8, only to die to burn a few turns later when I tapped out to cast a Narset. Game Two, I got in three swings with a Shambling Vent before he realized it had lifelink, then never saw him play a creature for Sorin to feast on, while dying to burn.
Round Four: W/B Humans (2-0): Game One, the poor guy ran into two Languish by turn 6, then refused to go down until Sphinx beat him to death. Game two, I sided in Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and Dragonlord Silumgar. There was one point where I ultimated Jace, Vryn's Prodigy with Narset Transcendent and Ob Nixilis Reignited on the field, only to have him flash in Archangel Avacyn and follow it up with an Ob of his own, blowing up my fresh Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and killing my Ob with Avacyn. Two turns later, I got to live the dream and cast Dragonlord Silumgar, taking his 3 loyalty Ob and nuking his Mindwrack Demon with it for what ended up being a 3 for 1. Eventually, he milled out.
Round 5: W/G Humans (1-2) Game One, I had spot removal for his first four plays and was able to run him out, then begin the process of picking away at his life total until I found Sphinx. I sided in Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Dragonlord Silumgar, and Infinite Obliteration. Game Two, I mulled to 6, kept a 2-lander with three Anticipate and a Languish, and died to the Humans deck's magical Christmas hand. Game Three, I stabilized for a while but couldn't find a 6th mana until it was too late.
What I learned:
I agree, Spell Shrivel is bad. The deck isn't built to cast it on curve, and it gets worse as the game goes on. 4 isn't a small number, but I often didn't have three mana up when I needed it. Replaced with Negate x2.
Dragonlord Silumgar gets my "6th Man" Award. I never felt bad casting him, and I always got at least a 2-for-one with him. Out of the sideboard, I think he's my go-to dragon of choice.
I'm not sure how I feel about Transgress the Mind. It's powerful, and I never whiffed when I cast it, but I don't think it had the same impact I was hoping it'd have on the game. It always feels like it's game-breaking when it's cast against me, but I never feel like it's doing that much work when I cast it.
Dark Petition is the real deal. I never felt bad about having it in my hand, and didn't lose a single game I rebounded it. It's stupidly powerful with Narset Transcendent, and I'm glad I'm running three copies.
I don't think I've had enough experience against all the different decks in the format to make the right decisions consistently. In other words, a lot of the problems I had were due to me not quite understanding what each deck was capable of. That's a problem that'll go away with time.
Overall, I'm disappointed but not saddened by my results. It's all just things to think about for the future. I'll be retooling the sideboard and posting my updated list for critique.
Played in two game days this past weekend. Saturday's was a dreadful affair of mana issues, I either flooded out or was screwed every match, save for the last when I played a GR ramp home brew. What I did learn, however, is that Duress does a lot of work and not running any in main didn't work well for me. I sided Duress in every match, and Transgress the Mind almost as much. Sunday was different. I made some deck changes, including running 4 Duress, 2 Transgress the Mind main and adding in 2 Blighted Fen to go 3-0-1, drawing with the other 3-0 into the top 4.
Round 1: Mono-White Enchantments 2-0
Not much to say here. Silkwrap, Statsis Snare, and Isolation Zone were all dead draws for letting me set up and control the board from the draw. Game 1 was Sphinx beat down and game 2 bombed Sorin for 24 vamps.
Round 2: Not Quite B/W Eldrazi 2-0
I say not quite because he didn't have all of the pieces for it. Game one I flooded our and we both went into top deck mode until I landed my third Narset, rolled her up while landing a Sorin. GG. Game two dropped Narset and Duressed two Ruinous Path and Transgressed a Sorin before landing and eventually ulting Sorin for the win.
Round 3: B/W Enchantment/Tokens Brew 2-0
Hand Disruption was my friend in this match. Removed all threats to my deck early to let me set up and take only a few hits from his Vent before he scooped game one (tapped a Caves for black on one life to lose). Game two he didn't see any of his discard spells and, after a slower start than I would have liked, I was able to pull ahead and stay ahead.
Round 4: Intentional Draw to top 4
Ended up second due to tie breakers, played G/W Humans in the first round of top 4 play and hit mana issues. Flooded out game one and stalled game two while it seemed like the other deck curved perfectly. Depressing to lose without really having a chance to play but I can't complain, all things considered.
Notes on the weekend:
Duress is great card and, I feel, some number should be main boarded. It provides information and removes problematic cards for B
I'd have to disagree on Shrivel. Maybe I saw it more, maybe I was sure to keep mana up for it early, idk, but Shriveling a big threat they tap most of their land for on turns 3-8 is was really nice.
Given the variety of decks popping up now it might be a good idea to start running hand disruption in main. My game days had relatively few aggro decks so the disruption was nice to have.
EDIT: After sitting down with the deck and all of the cards this morning I've arrived with this list:
I've had a lot of fun jamming this deck lately. Have a very similar list to Manfield's. Thinking of messing with people and sticking a 1 of Part the Waterveil in here just to see if I can ever get a rebound on it from Narset, which doesn't seem that tough to do and 3 turns in a row sounds pretty appealing
Edit: Cant rebound it since it exiles. Bad idea lol
Here's where I'm at right now. I'm not siding in JVP vs. everything, but he's been making a difference when he does come in. I'm still on the Jace train for now. I'm open to discuss, critique, or otherwise tear apart my list.
Played in two game days this past weekend. Saturday's was a dreadful affair of mana issues, I either flooded out or was screwed every match, save for the last when I played a GR ramp home brew. What I did learn, however, is that Duress does a lot of work and not running any in main didn't work well for me. I sided Duress in every match, and Transgress the Mind almost as much. Sunday was different. I made some deck changes, including running 4 Duress, 2 Transgress the Mind main and adding in 2 Blighted Fen to go 3-0-1, drawing with the other 3-0 into the top 4.
Round 1: Mono-White Enchantments 2-0
Not much to say here. Silkwrap, Statsis Snare, and Isolation Zone were all dead draws for letting me set up and control the board from the draw. Game 1 was Sphinx beat down and game 2 bombed Sorin for 24 vamps.
Round 2: Not Quite B/W Eldrazi 2-0
I say not quite because he didn't have all of the pieces for it. Game one I flooded our and we both went into top deck mode until I landed my third Narset, rolled her up while landing a Sorin. GG. Game two dropped Narset and Duressed two Ruinous Path and Transgressed a Sorin before landing and eventually ulting Sorin for the win.
Round 3: B/W Enchantment/Tokens Brew 2-0
Hand Disruption was my friend in this match. Removed all threats to my deck early to let me set up and take only a few hits from his Vent before he scooped game one (tapped a Caves for black on one life to lose). Game two he didn't see any of his discard spells and, after a slower start than I would have liked, I was able to pull ahead and stay ahead.
Round 4: Intentional Draw to top 4
Ended up second due to tie breakers, played G/W Humans in the first round of top 4 play and hit mana issues. Flooded out game one and stalled game two while it seemed like the other deck curved perfectly. Depressing to lose without really having a chance to play but I can't complain, all things considered.
Notes on the weekend:
Duress is great card and, I feel, some number should be main boarded. It provides information and removes problematic cards for B
I'd have to disagree on Shrivel. Maybe I saw it more, maybe I was sure to keep mana up for it early, idk, but Shriveling a big threat they tap most of their land for on turns 3-8 is was really nice.
Given the variety of decks popping up now it might be a good idea to start running hand disruption in main. My game days had relatively few aggro decks so the disruption was nice to have.
EDIT: After sitting down with the deck and all of the cards this morning I've arrived with this list:
Dispel - Mainly for CoCo match ups as a 2 of in the sideboard, go for dealing with spot removal and counters as well
Infinite Obliteration - Good against ramp and some midrange brews, would be a 2 of in the side
Virulent Plague - 1 of in the sideboard against tokens (meta exclusion choice, as there was one tokens deck)
Ojutai's Command - Without JVP this card loses some value, but the other three modes are all good, a 2 of out of the side against creature heavy deck
How was the Blighted Fen for you? I'm interested, but I'm not in love with adding a colorless land to my deck, so sell it to me!
I think the Duress in the main might be worth it, but perhaps instead of cutting 2 Ultimate Price, perhaps cut just 1 and 1 Grasp of Darkness as well to move to 3 of each? Price is just too good against Sylvan Advocate for me to go down to just 2 copies. I can see you moved them to the sideboard, but it would free up those slots for something else.
I don't think Ojutai's Command is worth it without Jace. Paying four to counter/draw is reasonable, but I don't think it's powerful enough for the sideboard slot with one of the modes 100% dead.
Spell Shrivel was okay for me yesterday but I agree it could probably be replaced. How about Clash of Wills? It has a similar tax effect to Shrivel and we can keep it relevant in the late game. I'd prefer something that can hit all spells, unlike Negate which is only non-creature.
Here's where I'm at right now. I'm not siding in JVP vs. everything, but he's been making a difference when he does come in. I'm still on the Jace train for now. I'm open to discuss, critique, or otherwise tear apart my list.
I only wasn't playing Jace because I lent a friend returning to the game my UR Control deck so he had something to play that wasn't total garbage. I think he should still be in the sideboard for sure.
Played in two game days this past weekend. Saturday's was a dreadful affair of mana issues, I either flooded out or was screwed every match, save for the last when I played a GR ramp home brew. What I did learn, however, is that Duress does a lot of work and not running any in main didn't work well for me. I sided Duress in every match, and Transgress the Mind almost as much. Sunday was different. I made some deck changes, including running 4 Duress, 2 Transgress the Mind main and adding in 2 Blighted Fen to go 3-0-1, drawing with the other 3-0 into the top 4.
Round 1: Mono-White Enchantments 2-0
Not much to say here. Silkwrap, Statsis Snare, and Isolation Zone were all dead draws for letting me set up and control the board from the draw. Game 1 was Sphinx beat down and game 2 bombed Sorin for 24 vamps.
Round 2: Not Quite B/W Eldrazi 2-0
I say not quite because he didn't have all of the pieces for it. Game one I flooded our and we both went into top deck mode until I landed my third Narset, rolled her up while landing a Sorin. GG. Game two dropped Narset and Duressed two Ruinous Path and Transgressed a Sorin before landing and eventually ulting Sorin for the win.
Round 3: B/W Enchantment/Tokens Brew 2-0
Hand Disruption was my friend in this match. Removed all threats to my deck early to let me set up and take only a few hits from his Vent before he scooped game one (tapped a Caves for black on one life to lose). Game two he didn't see any of his discard spells and, after a slower start than I would have liked, I was able to pull ahead and stay ahead.
Round 4: Intentional Draw to top 4
Ended up second due to tie breakers, played G/W Humans in the first round of top 4 play and hit mana issues. Flooded out game one and stalled game two while it seemed like the other deck curved perfectly. Depressing to lose without really having a chance to play but I can't complain, all things considered.
Notes on the weekend:
Duress is great card and, I feel, some number should be main boarded. It provides information and removes problematic cards for B
I'd have to disagree on Shrivel. Maybe I saw it more, maybe I was sure to keep mana up for it early, idk, but Shriveling a big threat they tap most of their land for on turns 3-8 is was really nice.
Given the variety of decks popping up now it might be a good idea to start running hand disruption in main. My game days had relatively few aggro decks so the disruption was nice to have.
EDIT: After sitting down with the deck and all of the cards this morning I've arrived with this list:
Dispel - Mainly for CoCo match ups as a 2 of in the sideboard, go for dealing with spot removal and counters as well
Infinite Obliteration - Good against ramp and some midrange brews, would be a 2 of in the side
Virulent Plague - 1 of in the sideboard against tokens (meta exclusion choice, as there was one tokens deck)
Ojutai's Command - Without JVP this card loses some value, but the other three modes are all good, a 2 of out of the side against creature heavy deck
How was the Blighted Fen for you? I'm interested, but I'm not in love with adding a colorless land to my deck, so sell it to me!
I think the Duress in the main might be worth it, but perhaps instead of cutting 2 Ultimate Price, perhaps cut just 1 and 1 Grasp of Darkness as well to move to 3 of each? Price is just too good against Sylvan Advocate for me to go down to just 2 copies. I can see you moved them to the sideboard, but it would free up those slots for something else.
I don't think Ojutai's Command is worth it without Jace. Paying four to counter/draw is reasonable, but I don't think it's powerful enough for the sideboard slot with one of the modes 100% dead.
Spell Shrivel was okay for me yesterday but I agree it could probably be replaced. How about Clash of Wills? It has a similar tax effect to Shrivel and we can keep it relevant in the late game. I'd prefer something that can hit all spells, unlike Negate which is only non-creature.
Fen was a great second answer to Vents. It also gets around Indestructible and Hexproof (had my Sphinx taken due to Fen in one game, which hurt). It is more niche than anything. I remember liking it in one of my other decks and gave it a try. The colorless mana isn't helpful, but the edict effect is nice.
My decisions with regards to Duress, Grasp, and Price were large meta influenced. I saw a lot of manlands, namely Vents, in BWx match ups that Price couldn't hit but Grasp can, along with seeing no Advocates at all. White was the dominant color color, followed by black and then green, locally. I am switch it to a 3:3 grasp and price, opening up two side board slots, but I'm not sure yet.
I agree, and that's why it didn't make the cut. It's one of the those cards I think about possibly working in here, which gets it stuck in my mind.
Clash could be good here, but I only really see it being better than Shrivel if you can cast it on turn 2, otherwise I think Shrivel has the edge. Negate might be better, if your meta is more non-creature based, but with W/x humans and CoCo still around I think it loses some of it's value.
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Currently Playing:
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Regarding the Seth Manfield PT deck, I'm thinking of not doing a transformational sideboard since everyone pretty much knows that creatures are coming in on game 2 and what removal they need to leave in (grasp, ultimate price). So it seems to not be as great after the secret is out. Rather maybe just boarding in removal and disruption that would be better for specific matchups. Anyone else thinking about this or actually tried this?
It's for control/mirror match ups and is a million times better than anything you listed. In mirrors, it'll be a race to get Sphinx out and I'd rather have two in that situation. Your still caught up in your Esper Dragons mentality which has already been proven to be sub-optimal at best. Those dragons are crap, and I have plenty of blue in my deck to cast Sphinx.
Esper Dragons just won the Grand Prix Toronto... As you wanted to put my nose into dirt if thing becomes a thing, i will put your nose in it right now for your Esper Dragons comment.
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You see, madness, as you know, is like gravity. All it takes is a little push! - The Joker
Regarding the Seth Manfield PT deck, I'm thinking of not doing a transformational sideboard since everyone pretty much knows that creatures are coming in on game 2 and what removal they need to leave in (grasp, ultimate price). So it seems to not be as great after the secret is out. Rather maybe just boarding in removal and disruption that would be better for specific matchups. Anyone else thinking about this or actually tried this?
I'm pretty watchful while they sideboard. If they are doing a pretty big swap out it's usually safe to assume that it's mostly removal being taken out. The only creatures I sideboard in are my Sphinx in control match-ups and Thing in the Ice when I'm confident it's removal being boarded out. Most of my sideboard is dedicated to control match-ups now since mainboard takes care of creature-based strategies fine.
I've been using Calculated Dismissal in place of Spell Shrivel and have actually quite liked it. There hasn't yet been a situation where I wanted it to be a Shrivel, but plenty of times where the Scry 2 proved immensely helpful.
Also, how is everybody answering Lumbering Falls? I need an answer for it but can't find anything reliable. It's getting to the point where I'm borderline considering sticking Grip of Desolation in the sideboard to get rid of it.
EDIT: By the way, loving this deck! Took it to Game Day, went 3-1-1 drawing into Top 8. My list is mostly pretty stock:
The deck beat UB Control, RG Landfall Aggro and GW Tokens in the Swiss, winning each match 2-0, and losing 1-2 to BG Aristocrats. In Top 8 I was up against BR Vampires and managed to beat it in 3 because Languish is incredible in that matchup. Lost game 3 to Grixis Dragons in the semifinals - should've been a 2-0 win, but I got severely mana-screwed game 1 and it put me way too far behind to take the game. I didn't hit a fourth land until he had built up to 8 or 9 land.
Modern: GRB Jund BRG RBU Grixis Delver UBR Legacy: W Death & Taxes W GRB Punishing Jund BRG GUR Canadian Threshold RUG Commander: RUG Maelstrom Wanderer GUR
I mainboard To the Slaughter to deal with Hexproofs and Indestructibles. It's great for killing Lumbering Falls, Sphinx in mirror matches, Ulamog, etc.
Edit:
To elaborate, I picked Slaughter because it doubles as Walker removal and has the chance to take out two if you've hit Delerium.
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
Instants (16)
4 Anticipate
4 Grasp of Darkness
4 Ultimate Price
2 Spell Shrivel
2 Silumgar's Command
Sorceries (8)
2 Ruinous Path
4 Languish
2 Dark Petition
Planeswalkers (8)
3 Narset Transcendent
2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2 Choked Estuary
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Islands
1 Plains
4 Prairie Stream
3 Shambling Vent
4 Sunken Hallow
6 Swamp
2 Dispel
2 Duress
2 Negate
2 Transgress the Mind
1 Infinite Obliteration
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
Here's what I'm gonna run. I've played it against my friend's G/W good stuff deck and it has been fairly consistent. This list very close to Seth's list with a few tweaks of my own. I do like the primarily black deck with a splash of blue and white. Jace and the Sphinx are the only cards with a double color casting cost outside of black, which I think helps with the consistency. I'm not set on the sideboard and wondering what I should remove for Virulent Plague as I'm sure there will be several token decks running around the shop.
EDIT: @Celestral - we are trying to have a civil conversation about a deck type. You're attitude, especially post-Pro Tour, has been anything but civil. It is okay to disagree and have differing ideas and opinions on things, that's part of the discussion aspect of forums. We are simply offering up our ideas and feedback. Given your recent attitude I've been half tempted to create a new Esper Control thread where a more civil discussion can take place. Yes, you were right about few things. You've made that clear. Now please, get off your damn high horse so that we can have a civil discussion about the many flavors of the deck that are out there without having to worry about you being hyper-critical of flavors that are not your own or about opinions that disagree with yours.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Following the pro tour results I had my gloat moment because I had caught nothing but negativity and criticism for my Esper deck since the original thread in New Card Discussion. I've moved on, made a primer and posted a new decklist and am still getting flak. I'm not going to be pleasant when encountering unpleasantness mod warnings or not.
WUBEsper ControlWUB
...that doesn't help you defend your points and it doesn't make you seem serious, it just makes you seem angry. We're all trying to, as you said in the title, "rejoice and be merry", but it's hard when one person is repeatedly insulting and belittling the others. This is the last time I'll ask you to stop. Please, try not to be so sure of yourself that you can't accept critique. Now...
@Dusk 707: I'd consider cutting a Dispel or a Negate for the Virulent Plague, probably leaning toward the Negate if you expect lots of Company. My reasoning is that between your discard and your counter suite, you'll probably be able to handle the first Company or two and stabilize, and once you've got walkers on the board, it's going to get tougher for them to win.
I just decided to post to try to calm things down a bit and move the conversation back to magic. You all DID gang up on Celestreal, and some of you where outright disrespectful towards him. Having said that, is true he was a bit on a high horse (he admitted that), and his last response was not civil either. So, how about you all recognize your part of the fault and move on to discussing magic? Thanks.
Regarding the deck, I do agree with Fitzlock regarding the importance of discard effects vs hard matchups (like Eldrazi). There should be some in the SB at least.
I do agree with Celestreal regarding the extra Sphinx in the SB, is the single most powerful card vs the mirror and control decks. I also do like having access to at least 1 To The Slaughter, it saved my life several times.
Virulent Plague is a MUST in the SB, the card makes token decks so much easier. Ormendahl had 0 activations in my games since I paired Virulent Plague with my removal suite.
Going back to the topic of To The Slaughter, I wil mention one play that explains some of its perks: I was playing a RG Googles deck, I had Narset in play and just petition on had, I used her minus to rebound Petition. I grabed Sorin for extra gas, in his turn he plays Chandra, kills Narset with the hasty tokens, in my turn I get TTS with the rebounded Petition, killed Chandra in the upkeep with the 3 black mana, and played Sorin in my main. I won that game. Sure, is not the perfect removal, is bad in some scenarios, tho is great as part of the toolbox for Dark petition. Being an instant goes a long way in some cases.
Apologies, facundoorzabal. It must seem quite childish in here right now. For my part, I'm not intending to gang up on anyone, and I'm sorry if it's come across like that (I just see several people all disagreeing with one person, not a mob mentality). It is, however, very difficult to have a productive discussion with someone who responds to any criticism with an aggressive defense that can be summarized as "I was right before, so I'm right now". Your scenario against ramp with To the Slaughter is a little bit corner case, but it certainly demonstrates the power of the card. I will try a copy in my 75 based on your comment and I'll let you know how that goes.
There are, unfortunately, a few comments I feel like I need to respond to because they are - again - simply not true.
Putting aside how childish this comment is and how irrelevant my feelings on Esper Dragons are, Dragonlord Silumgar is just as powerful as the Sphinx against control or in the mirror. Whilst he doesn't have hexproof, he does not die to our primary removal spells (Languish, Ultimate Price, Grasp of Darkness). As a result, he requires a Sorcery speed response and because of that, he's able to easily steal a Planeswalker and immediately use its ultimate ability resulting in a huge 2-for-1 tempo swing. The only instant-speed response to Dragonlord Silumgar is, ironically, a Silumgar's Command to return him to hand (or a To the Slaughter without a Shambling Vent to sacrifice instead). That's all without considering how good a 3/5 flying Deathtouch creature is against basically everything ever. It is foolish to dismiss him so casually as he has consistently demonstrated how powerful the Sower of Temptation model of creature can be. He was monstrously powerful even when Hero's Downfall was everywhere, and he's certainly powerful now. The list of varying Planeswalker ultimates I have stolen with him since his printing is not small. I look forward to adding Sorin, Grim Nemesis and Jace, Unraveler of Secrets to his list of kills.
This is just factually incorrect and I can't believe I even need to point it out. I assume the "two cards" mentioned are the 2x Ruinous Path, so I will point out that one of the four modes of Silumgar's Command destroys a Planeswalker (whilst another counters a Planeswalker on the stack), and there are two copies of Sorin, Grim Nemesis that have an ability that specifically targets and damages Planeswalkers, as well as the 2x Spell Shrivel to potentially counter them. Supplementing these in the sideboard are 2x Anguished Unmaking, 1x Transgress the Mind, 2x Duress and 2x Negate. Across the 75, that is 14 cards that answer Planeswalkers with 7 of them being in the main deck. This is without considering any attacks that could be made by Shambling Vent or Sphinx of the Final Word. As for large indestructible creatures, Infinite Obliteration can answer a lot of them and additional support from Transgress the Mind and Anguished Unmaking minimizes the concern. Against Ormendahl in particular, Virulent Plague is excellent and likely irremovable as we expect Dromoka's Command to be cut after game 1. Using Silumgar's Command to return Ormendahl to hand safely locked away in his Abbey after your opponent has sacrificed their entire board (or a good portion of it) is very satisfying. As for the Sphinx, he is an issue but Planar Outburst is one more answer than "none".
Cutting the attitude out of this comment, I will agree that boarding in Thing in the Ice is no less risky than boarding in Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. It is, however, a lot less powerful. The UR Control deck does indeed play four copies of Thing, however that deck is also built very differently and with transforming that creature in mind. A transformed Jace, Telepath Unbound is considerably more powerful than Awoken Horror for reasons which I hope will be obvious; he provides extra copies of all our most powerful non-Planeswalker spells, he slows down aggression and can win the game by himself (after drawing at least one card in his creature form) without any added investment other than paying his initial mana cost. I will maintain that 2x Duress or 2x Transgress the Mind in place of the 2x Thing in the Ice will prove more powerful against a multitude of decks and with a much lower opportunity cost.
I have tried to put my opinions across clearly and in a straight-forward manner, backing them up as much as possible with clear examples and likely interactions. Hopefully you will do the same and we can actually have a discussion for once.
Round 1: Mono-White Human Aggro
This match up, our decks shine. He would rapidly put cheap creatures out, and I would Languish them the next turn. One game I got really lucky and was able to use all 4 of my Languish. I went 2-0 with him, and my Walkers were never in danger. When those things get going, the card draw is crazy. I kept a full hand and never missed a land drop.
Round 2: Bant Company
Another favorable match up for us! Had a few close calls when he stuck Sylvan Advocates and I didn't have Ultimate Price or a general removal spell handy, but I also went 2-0 this round.
Round 3: UB Control
This is where the night got more complicated, and it was in this round and the next one that I identified my only real weakness: Pick the Brain and Transgress the Mind. This match up was agonizing. He Transgress'd my Sphinx out of my opening hand (which would have been able to kill him so much sooner had it been cast). Game 1 lasted 45 minutes. Had a close call when he raised 9 zombies, but I hit them with a Declaration in Stone and wiped them all out. I got a Sorin to stick and ticked his health down with the +1 and 2 tag teaming Shambling Vents. We got maybe 2 minutes into Game 2 when turns was called and we just agreed to Draw.
Round 4: Grixis TITI Homebrew Controlish Tempoish Something
This deck was a nightmare. It came out looking something like the UR Control, then he started playing some black. He had a lot of Read the Bones and Painful Truths as well as 4x Transgress the Mind. Game 1, I just had really bad draw. I got flooded and didn't draw any spot removal, so TITI flipped on turn 5 or 6 and beat my face.
Game 2 I sideboarded in my 3x Negate, an Infinite Obliteration and an additional Sphinx of the Final Word. He also boarded in a ton of counterspell. I drew the Infinite Obliteration in my opening hand and played it on the curve on turn 3, exiling all of his Thing in the Ice which removed his primary win condition. He tried to stick a Chandra but I Ruinous Path'd it and when I stuck him with a Narset Transcendent emblem he conceded as he wouldn't be able to cast anything.
Game 3 was the worst. He hit me with Transgress the Mind on Turns 2 AND 3, cleaving Narset and Sorin from my hand. He also had a fist full of counterspell and was able to defend his TITI from my removal. He actually forced me to top deck while his TITI ripped into me. I managed to remove TITI but he had awoken a land with Scatter to the Winds which was able to finish me.
The guy has been playing control for 8 years and said he was impressed with me and my deck. Took some of the sting off, but the match had given me a headache!
Conclusions:
WUBEsper ControlWUB
Thanks for the report. The situation you described with the hand hate is avoidable; Its best to never keep an opening hand with win-cons in a control deck imo, but also sounds like bad luck. So many methods to get what we need that it's not worth keeping sorin in opening hand.
Other than that, sounds like you had a good time with good results!
I'll post my results later, as I'm trying esper control today at Game Day (have been playing B/w control).
Duress is your friend.
After sidebording I have the full set of Duress + 2 Transgress the Mind + 4-6 counters for the mirror matches. I am not saying my strat is the best, but I do honestly think you should have 3-4 Duress in your deck. T1 kill your best card in hand is amazing. Not only attacks his hand, but protects yours too.
WUBEsper ControlWUB
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
Plainswalkers (8)
2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
2 Narset Transcendent
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Spells (24)
4 Anticipate
2 Dark Petition
4 Grasp of Darkness
4 Languish
1 Planar Outburst
2 Ruinous Path
1 Silumgar's Command
2 Spell Shrivel
4 Ultimate Price
1 Choked Estuary
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Prairie Stream
4 Shambling Vent
4 Sunken Hollow
6 Swamp
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
2 Duress
1 Decend Upon the Sinful
1 Infinite Obliteration
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Negate
1 Transgress the Mind
Match 1: draw vs. B/w control (eldrazi)
Basic BW control package except no avacyn and uses reality smashers.
Game one: I had all walkers online it was simply a matter of waiting for Sphinx because we both fighting each other with shambling vents haha. I countered his sorin and he scooped
Game 2:he 2x duress and 2x transgress me. Zero removal left in my hand. 2x reality smashers. gG
We decided to draw cuz we got to final 5
Match 2: werewolves 2-0
Easy as pie.
Match 3: werewolves 2.0. 1-2
Took nearly to time cap getting game 1 and 2 done. I burned through half my deck dealing with arlinn kord and those 3/3 haste flip creatures ( I forget their name) with his 3x howlpack resurgence.
Game 3 I mulled to 4 ended up with island, plains, swamp, languish..ultimate price on scry. Drew 3x evolving wilds. Never seen a hand that bad. I wouldnt have kept, but we had 10 mins left and I didn't want another draw.
Match 4: 2-1 UW humans.
Hot damn ojutai and always watching is annoying.
Game 1 went pretty easily with good draws. Languish and Ob nix/sorin did plenty of work.
Game 2: turn 4 always watching, turn 5 ojutai..did my best, but hes a nightmare.
Game 3: turn 3 infinite obliteration, still took me to turn 4 of final 5 to win.
Match 5: green eldrazi ramp. 2-0
Easy match up, remove everything, free cards from thought-knot seer. Shazaam.
Conclusion: all said and done, I was happy with the deck. I wasn't as happy with silumgar's command as I thought I would be. It was decent, but I usually decided agaianst paying 5 when most creatures were over 3/3.
I felt like my loss to werewolves wasn't the decks' problem, so I can't fault back luck and bad draws. As I am used to B/w control, I realllllllly missed secure the wastes and declaration in stone. The 2 mana removal just seems to slide into so many more plays...that said, I don't think you can fit them into the deck..i wouldnt wanna drop more than 1 card.
I didn't Bring Jace in even 1 time.
DARK PETITION was the best card in the deck, every game.
*Spell Shrivel is bad, so bad. All the pros said it was bad, but they played it because they had nothing better. I do not like playing such a bad card MD, so I tried other cards and afer better results I removed both copies from my 75.
*To The Slaughter, as a one of, is winning me games vs control while not being horrible vs creatures. Versus control delirium is easy to get, and becomes huge game when it does. Just today I played the mirror, was a slow grindy game, and at one point we both had a Big Jace ticking. He plays the Sphinx, and that usually means you lose, but To The Slaughter rescued me from a hard spot, killed both his permanents with it and won easily from there.
*Oath of Jace, came in as a one of replacing a Spell Shrivel. While not insane, I am very happy with it. In game one vs control decks, you are left with lots of dead cards in your hands. The oath feals like draw 3 every time I play it. And do not get me started with the sweet synergy with Narset and/or Sorin when you have two planewalkers in play, it just seals the game vs slow decks.
*Negate is amazing. I MD one instead of Spell Shrivel, and I was able to cast it a LOT more than the replaced card. 2 mana instant in the key part here, you can counter all the cards you really want to counter with it, mostly planewalkers and COCOS, since we already have plenty of removal and sweepers vs creatures. I used to get stuck with Spell Shrivel a lot in the early game, but Negate feals like a real card instead, and is never dead.
*Languish, I know, the card is perfect for the meta, but 4 is too many most of the times, went down to 3, and after many games vs creatures decks I do not miss the 4th copy. And because of that I got an extra slot for a card that is not dead vs control.
*Duress Feels amazing every time I cast it, and horrible when is being cast on me. Sure, sometimes, rarely actually, misses... but in a deck that can generate so much card draw, is barely an issue. Not only I get to disrupts their game plan, it gives me perfect information to know how to play. It is so good I even get it with Dark petition when the game ask me to. Some times, your best play is to take their best play before they play it. I have 2 MD atm.
1x Sphinx of the Final Word
Planeswalkers (8)
3x Narset Transcendent
2x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
2x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Spells (24)
4x Ultimate Price
4x Grasp of Darkness
4x Anticipate
2x Spell Shrivel
2x Ruinous Path
4x Languish
1x Silumgar's Command
2x Dark Petition
1x Planar Outburst
4x Prairie Stream
4x Sunken Hollow
4x Evolving Wilds
4x Shambling Vent
1x Choked Estuary
6x Swamp
3x Island
1x Plains
2x Duress
2x Transgress the Mind
2x Negate
1x Infinite Obliteration
1x Virulent Plague
2x Anguished Unmaking
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Orbs of Warding
1x Linvala, the Preserver
1x Dragonlord Silumgar
Round 1: UB Sphinx's Tutelage
Game 1 - He had an anemic draw which I punished with an early, unimpeded Narset which swiftly generated an emblem to lock him out.
Game 2 - Orbs of Warding. GG.
Round 2: GB Sacrifice
Game 1 - He over-extended with Cryptolith Rite, playing almost his entire hand into my Languish on turn 4. On turn 6 I rebounded another Languish and he conceded.
Game 2 - He cast two copies of Transgress the Mind in the early game and missed entirely. I was then able to draw a Dark Petition to find and play Kalitas, which he wasn't able to answer.
Note - It was obvious this guy was frustrated, but I have never felt so uncomfortable in a match. "Of course you draw removal non-stop" and "What a ****ing joke" are not acceptable comments to make towards your opponent. My deck is Planeswalkers and removal spells, buddy. What do you want from me?
Round 3: UR Control
Game 1 - Planeswalkers put on too much pressure whilst I kept his board clear of any and all creatures. Countering his Pyromancer's Goggles and returning Wandering Fumarole to his hand with Silumgar's Command was enough to draw a concession.
Game 2 - I got absolutely wrecked by Fevered Visions. Was not remotely close.
Game 3 - Duress into Transgress the Mind stripped his Fevered Visions and I was able to protect and ultimate a Jace, Unraveler of Secrets before landing a Sorin, Grim Nemesis and killing him with repeated use of the +1 ability.
Round 4: Intentional draw.
Top 8: I'm going home, have fun scrapping over the playmat! (not trying to be arrogant, but I've won these things in the past and would never use the mat so better it goes to someone else and I don't have to waste anyone's time, least of all mine)
Magic's great. This deck's great. I'm great. Everything's great.
Round One: Red/Black Dragons (2-0): His strategy involved using the red thopter-producing creatures to clog up the game until the dragons could take over, with Westvale Abbey as a backup plan. Game One, I swept the board twice and had spot removal for his Thunderbreak Regent, then Sphinx and a few walkers took over. Game Two, I got out Virulent Plague to stop the token rush, then had to deal with back to back to back Dragonlord Kolaghan. Once that was done with, I was able to stabilize with Sorin and then take the match.
Round Two: Mono-Red Eldrazi (0-2): I have a hard time figuring this matchup out, to be honest. It seems like so much of what they do is must-answer, and Chandra is a real problem for me. In the first game, I got ran over by elementals after fighting through Thought-Knot Seer and some thopter tokens. I boarded in 2 Anguished Unmaking, 2 Dragonlord Silumgar, and some Transgress the Mind. Game Two, I made a misplay when I attacked his Chandra with a Shambling Vent instead of dropping Sorin and using him to nuke her for the life. His next swing was a Reality Smasher and 2 elementals for 13, exactly lethal.
Round Three: Red/Black Vampires (0-2): Game One, I stabilized at 8, only to die to burn a few turns later when I tapped out to cast a Narset. Game Two, I got in three swings with a Shambling Vent before he realized it had lifelink, then never saw him play a creature for Sorin to feast on, while dying to burn.
Round Four: W/B Humans (2-0): Game One, the poor guy ran into two Languish by turn 6, then refused to go down until Sphinx beat him to death. Game two, I sided in Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and Dragonlord Silumgar. There was one point where I ultimated Jace, Vryn's Prodigy with Narset Transcendent and Ob Nixilis Reignited on the field, only to have him flash in Archangel Avacyn and follow it up with an Ob of his own, blowing up my fresh Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and killing my Ob with Avacyn. Two turns later, I got to live the dream and cast Dragonlord Silumgar, taking his 3 loyalty Ob and nuking his Mindwrack Demon with it for what ended up being a 3 for 1. Eventually, he milled out.
Round 5: W/G Humans (1-2) Game One, I had spot removal for his first four plays and was able to run him out, then begin the process of picking away at his life total until I found Sphinx. I sided in Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Dragonlord Silumgar, and Infinite Obliteration. Game Two, I mulled to 6, kept a 2-lander with three Anticipate and a Languish, and died to the Humans deck's magical Christmas hand. Game Three, I stabilized for a while but couldn't find a 6th mana until it was too late.
What I learned:
Overall, I'm disappointed but not saddened by my results. It's all just things to think about for the future. I'll be retooling the sideboard and posting my updated list for critique.
Round 1: Mono-White Enchantments 2-0
Not much to say here. Silkwrap, Statsis Snare, and Isolation Zone were all dead draws for letting me set up and control the board from the draw. Game 1 was Sphinx beat down and game 2 bombed Sorin for 24 vamps.
Round 2: Not Quite B/W Eldrazi 2-0
I say not quite because he didn't have all of the pieces for it. Game one I flooded our and we both went into top deck mode until I landed my third Narset, rolled her up while landing a Sorin. GG. Game two dropped Narset and Duressed two Ruinous Path and Transgressed a Sorin before landing and eventually ulting Sorin for the win.
Round 3: B/W Enchantment/Tokens Brew 2-0
Hand Disruption was my friend in this match. Removed all threats to my deck early to let me set up and take only a few hits from his Vent before he scooped game one (tapped a Caves for black on one life to lose). Game two he didn't see any of his discard spells and, after a slower start than I would have liked, I was able to pull ahead and stay ahead.
Round 4: Intentional Draw to top 4
Ended up second due to tie breakers, played G/W Humans in the first round of top 4 play and hit mana issues. Flooded out game one and stalled game two while it seemed like the other deck curved perfectly. Depressing to lose without really having a chance to play but I can't complain, all things considered.
Notes on the weekend:
EDIT: After sitting down with the deck and all of the cards this morning I've arrived with this list:
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
Instants (14)
4 Anticipate
4 Grasp of Darkness
2 Ultimate Price
2 Spell Shrivel
2 Silumgar's Command
Sorceries (10)
2 Duress
2 Ruinous Path
4 Languish
2 Dark Petition
Planeswalkers (8)
3 Narset Transcendent
2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2 Blighted Fen
2 Choked Estuary
3 Evolving Wilds
2 Islands
1 Plains
4 Prairie Stream
3 Shambling Vent
4 Sunken Hallow
6 Swamp
2 Duress
2 Negate
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Ultimate Price
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
Cards in the Maybe Board:
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Edit: Cant rebound it since it exiles. Bad idea lol
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2 Narset Transcendent
2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
Creatures (1)
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
Instants (15)
2 Silumgar's Command
2 Negate
3 Ultimate Price
4 Anticipate
4 Grasp of Darkness
Sorceries (10)
1 Descend upon the Sinful
1 Ruinous Path
2 Duress
3 Dark Petition
3 Languish
1 Port Town
4 Prairie Stream
3 Choked Estuary
4 Sunken Hollow
1 Caves of Koilos
3 Shambling Vent
4 Evolving Wilds
1 Island
1 Plains
5 Swamp
1 Infinite Obliteration
1 Learn from the Past
1 To the Slaughter
1 Virulent Plague
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Dispel
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
2 Ojutai's Command
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Here's where I'm at right now. I'm not siding in JVP vs. everything, but he's been making a difference when he does come in. I'm still on the Jace train for now. I'm open to discuss, critique, or otherwise tear apart my list.
How was the Blighted Fen for you? I'm interested, but I'm not in love with adding a colorless land to my deck, so sell it to me!
I think the Duress in the main might be worth it, but perhaps instead of cutting 2 Ultimate Price, perhaps cut just 1 and 1 Grasp of Darkness as well to move to 3 of each? Price is just too good against Sylvan Advocate for me to go down to just 2 copies. I can see you moved them to the sideboard, but it would free up those slots for something else.
I don't think Ojutai's Command is worth it without Jace. Paying four to counter/draw is reasonable, but I don't think it's powerful enough for the sideboard slot with one of the modes 100% dead.
Spell Shrivel was okay for me yesterday but I agree it could probably be replaced. How about Clash of Wills? It has a similar tax effect to Shrivel and we can keep it relevant in the late game. I'd prefer something that can hit all spells, unlike Negate which is only non-creature.
I only wasn't playing Jace because I lent a friend returning to the game my UR Control deck so he had something to play that wasn't total garbage. I think he should still be in the sideboard for sure.
Fen was a great second answer to Vents. It also gets around Indestructible and Hexproof (had my Sphinx taken due to Fen in one game, which hurt). It is more niche than anything. I remember liking it in one of my other decks and gave it a try. The colorless mana isn't helpful, but the edict effect is nice.
My decisions with regards to Duress, Grasp, and Price were large meta influenced. I saw a lot of manlands, namely Vents, in BWx match ups that Price couldn't hit but Grasp can, along with seeing no Advocates at all. White was the dominant color color, followed by black and then green, locally. I am switch it to a 3:3 grasp and price, opening up two side board slots, but I'm not sure yet.
I agree, and that's why it didn't make the cut. It's one of the those cards I think about possibly working in here, which gets it stuck in my mind.
Clash could be good here, but I only really see it being better than Shrivel if you can cast it on turn 2, otherwise I think Shrivel has the edge. Negate might be better, if your meta is more non-creature based, but with W/x humans and CoCo still around I think it loses some of it's value.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Esper Dragons just won the Grand Prix Toronto... As you wanted to put my nose into dirt if thing becomes a thing, i will put your nose in it right now for your Esper Dragons comment.
I'm pretty watchful while they sideboard. If they are doing a pretty big swap out it's usually safe to assume that it's mostly removal being taken out. The only creatures I sideboard in are my Sphinx in control match-ups and Thing in the Ice when I'm confident it's removal being boarded out. Most of my sideboard is dedicated to control match-ups now since mainboard takes care of creature-based strategies fine.
WUBEsper ControlWUB
Also, how is everybody answering Lumbering Falls? I need an answer for it but can't find anything reliable. It's getting to the point where I'm borderline considering sticking Grip of Desolation in the sideboard to get rid of it.
EDIT: By the way, loving this deck! Took it to Game Day, went 3-1-1 drawing into Top 8. My list is mostly pretty stock:
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
Instants: 15
4 Anticipate
4 Grasp of Darkness
4 Ultimate Price
2 Calculated Dismissal
1 Silumgar's Command
Sorceries: 9
2 Ruinous Path
4 Languish
2 Dark Petition
1 Planar Outburst
Planeswalkers: 8
3 Narset Transcendent
2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Choked Estuary
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Prairie Stream
4 Shambling Vent
4 Sunken Hollow
6 Swamp
2 Dispel
2 Duress
2 Negate
1 Transgress the Mind
2 Infinite Obliteration
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
The deck beat UB Control, RG Landfall Aggro and GW Tokens in the Swiss, winning each match 2-0, and losing 1-2 to BG Aristocrats. In Top 8 I was up against BR Vampires and managed to beat it in 3 because Languish is incredible in that matchup. Lost game 3 to Grixis Dragons in the semifinals - should've been a 2-0 win, but I got severely mana-screwed game 1 and it put me way too far behind to take the game. I didn't hit a fourth land until he had built up to 8 or 9 land.
Modern:
GRB Jund BRG
RBU Grixis Delver UBR
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes W
GRB Punishing Jund BRG
GUR Canadian Threshold RUG
Commander:
RUG Maelstrom Wanderer GUR
Edit:
To elaborate, I picked Slaughter because it doubles as Walker removal and has the chance to take out two if you've hit Delerium.
WUBEsper ControlWUB