I've missed most of the last few months of Standard, but I'm looking to get back in hard with the rotation. At this point of the spoilers, I think it's unlikely any new cards spoiled will have any serious effects on what the strongest decks are going to be. I know a lot of players vigorously test with proxies as cards are spoiled, hoping to solve the format early. What are your predictions for what the Tier-1 decks will be? Basically, I want to commit to a deck fairly soon (before pre-release), and go order/preorder the cards on TCG so I have the deck ready to go. A couple of my friends have vouched for good results so far from Grixis Madness and Jund, but they're a fairly small sample size.
I was thinking of something controllish using thing in the ice and reflector mages
Maybe topplegeists as well,
Counter spells are just expensive and seem slow, still working on it
I forgot about ramp but honestly I think it'll still be tier 2 cause if it gets popular all the GDD will run obleteration in the board and just reckless them along with kolaghan's command. That card is the business against them.
I honestly don't think the vampire aggro deck will be that good. You literally.gotta have a god hand I'm order to win against any midrange deck. Like t1 gorger T2 Heir t3 incorgiable
I forgot about ramp but honestly I think it'll still be tier 2 cause if it gets popular all the GDD will run obleteration in the board and just reckless them along with kolaghan's command. That card is the business against them.
This has literally never been true as long as Dark-Dwellers has been a card.
OP: The only correct answers are RDW and Ramp. Ramp is a tier-1 deck in a higher power format and loses one "centerpiece" threat (Ugin, the Spirit Dragon) which was already seeing itself out in favor of alternatives which will still be legal (Dragonlord Atarka, Chandra, Flamecaller). RDW is always tier-1 for the first few weeks of the format, regardless of how bad the archetype actually is, because the environment at the beginning of a format so massively favors RDW. Everyone wants to jam their favorite pet 3-color midrange brew that ends up being a bad pile of good cards, and they're all too busy screwing around with nonsense to have even the most basic of countermeasures for opposing 1-drop -> 2-drop curves. Look at BFZ Standard for example, that Atarka Red deck was complete trash -- literally just a pile of the backups from KTK-THS Standard that didn't see play during that season, the deck got absolutely nothing from BFZ -- and still spiked opening weekend because most of the decks in the format failed to respect it.
There are some reasonable speculative options. BW Mid/Control is a good one. GW Tokens, GR Monsters and some variation of blue control (UB/UW/Esper) will all be represented in varying levels of soundness. But the two decks you must be able to beat are RDW and Ramp, full stop.
I actually said rdw was gonna be tier 1...I mean it'll still be atarka red but it'll be tier one.
I just don't see ramp being tier 1. Even last format it was very meta driven and when the GDD decks were popular with kcommand duress and infinite oblt. They did poorly but when jeskai and rally were big.it soared to the top.
I mean the deck will still be good I just think it's results will be meta driven.
Jund, atarka red, gwx raptor/company will most likely stay on top again imo. Stay on top amd.put up consistent results.
The biggest problem with the ramp deck is its only unanswerable win con being ulamog and how sensitive the deck is to.mulligans along with the fact a single duress can slow them enough to be inconsistent and stumble makes me.think it's gonna be tier 2.
I played mardu green and jeskai black and sure game 1 was rough but honestly with mardu green I always felt after board the deck was a breezero to beat but with dark jeskai it could be a little more eiffy.
Doesn't change the fact that they will most likely be running dorks and archive which sets them up for a huge blow out from k command.
And h ok neatly there's enough cards now that even game 1 ulamog is answerable.
Anguished unmaking, to the slaughter, pick the brain, transgress like I don't think ulamog will be a huge issue.
RDW has a lot going against it during the opening format - particularly the fact that Reflector Mage and Sylvan Advocate are popular cards and also incredibly powerful cards. I think the mere existence of these cards is going to let the format open up in a fairly midrange slugfest fashion.
Plus the fact were still pretty much gonna have cheap sweepers around that hose them makes it a very up hill battle especially without they're combo now.
Most atarka red decks will have to take the go wide token approach but it's just extremely.easy to hose them.
I just don't see ramp being tier 1. Even last format it was very meta driven and when the GDD decks were popular with kcommand duress and infinite oblt. They did poorly but when jeskai and rally were big.it soared to the top.
I don't agree. In weeks where people look to be experimenting a lot, Ramp loses nothing and remains a solid choice with or without the new cards. It also stays at 2 colors.
Not sure about RDW as this tier's iteration looks specially crappy and slow, but some people in TCG Player think Red Eldrazi could also be a thing.
You keep saying "folds to Kolaghan's Command" but Kolaghan's Command has been around the entire time these decks have existed... and Kommand is almost completely unplayable right now. Surely if multiple archetypes folded to the card it would see more than fringe play in decks already designed to maximize its use, like Mardu Green or Jeskai Black...
Mindwrack Demon to fill the graveyard and as a top end threat.
I'm using Vessel of Paramnesia as an enabler for now. We didn't get much better as far as I can tell.
You can do things like T2 Jace, T3 Vessel and flip Jace, T4 Languish out of your hand or GY if you milled one.
I'm planning to post a list this weekend. Thought I'd mention something in case others have worked on it. Plus, I do predict something like this will appear at the top tables this season.
You keep saying "folds to Kolaghan's Command" but Kolaghan's Command has been around the entire time these decks have existed... and Kommand is almost completely unplayable right now. Surely if multiple archetypes folded to the card it would see more than fringe play in decks already designed to maximize its use, like Mardu Green or Jeskai Black...
Depends on the exact build, to be frank. If they are on a Hedron Archive/Mana Dork version, you can get some crippling value out of a timely Command. If you can answer the first volley of threats, the instant speed discard can secure a win. That said, it's wildly divergent as to how strong it is depending on the given board state and exact build of the ramp list.
What ramp is going to gain, however, has nothing to do with gaining anytihng, but rather that decks are going to be losing Crackling Doom. That's the troubling bit, methinks. That said, it's possible that it's hated out by other decks successfully preying on it. The fate of Ramp will be decided based solely on what *new* decks rotation brings us, not what is currently being run methinks.
Another big thing people aren't realizing us yah sure the deck isn't losing anything really but the big thing people are forgetting is the deck isn't really gaining anything.
You could make a argument for traverse but it'll be super hard for that deck to hit delirum and, even then beyond traverse nothing is out that adds any versatility to the deck or makes it any better. Ramp is basically tier2 now and with nothing changing and no real cards being added to it what makes people think that's gonna change.
Every ramp player I know or have played against has told me personally that kcommand hurts them tremendously.
Because most of there turns they play dork into ramp spell spell and of there playing lands every turn they get down to a card or two and with a timely command you can deny them a crucial 7th land for temple or deny them there threat.
Honestly the deck would be a non point but sanctum pretty much makes the deck.playable. so honestly if you ran crumb in the sb of your red deck and popped there sanctum it's very hard for them to win if you answer there first couple.of threats as after that they have to draw them naturally.
If ramp gets to 4 mana its over. Explosive Vegitation is night and day for the deck. Ulvenwald Hydra is a big pick up for ramp decks. It allows you to fetch for any land not just basics. This allows you to search up a Sanctum of Ugin.
2 cost mana dorks does make you some what weak to red removal. Still playing thought-knot seer and they have issues with him.
Another big thing people aren't realizing us yah sure the deck isn't losing anything really but the big thing people are forgetting is the deck isn't really gaining anything.
It's gaining what other decks are losing. Like I said, it could have trouble with decks coming out of the new format. Or it could dominate them. It's pretty much impossible to say which will happen. Losing Ugin is a big deal, as it stabalizes any board state present immediately. While Kozilek's Return is very good, it does not deal with Planeswalkers nor does it deal with all problem creatures. Nor does Chandra for creatures (And can deal with Planeswalkers fairly well sometimes). While Ramp has shaved down on Ugins recently, there are a great many games that the deck leans heavily on it. Depending on how the format shakes out, it will be a major role-player or solidly tier 2. At least for the early season I'm willing to bet it's a tier 1 deck.
You could make a argument for traverse but it'll be super hard for that deck to hit delirum and, even then beyond traverse nothing is out that adds any versatility to the deck or makes it any better. Ramp is basically tier2 now and with nothing changing and no real cards being added to it what makes people think that's gonna change.
Ramp comprises about 10% of the current standard metagame, and is often ignored by people. This is largely due to Rally just eating it alive, to be honest (As ramp puts up only nominal resistance to the deck). It is the fourth highest winning deck in the format over the past two months. If that doesn't mean it's Tier 1, I don't know what does. Like I said, the surge in rally players has really hurt the deck (However, the surge of rally players has hurt *every* deck), but it's been a major deck since Oath. It hasn't put up number in the last week, but the last two months it has performed well.
As a ramp player, and one who's played with it enough/ brewed it early enough (since BFZ) I don't care about Kolaghna's Command. If you make me discard I'll pitch a land or a World Breaker. Most versions of the ramp deck are less focused on mana dorks (cutting everything but rattleclaw) and moving back towards sweeper effects. With Ugin leaving this means ramp will just replace with MD Returns and or 4 CHandra's. The deck was and is powerful enough to be in the proven section as it's raw power level is enough to get you there at times. It's getting tools to make it more consistent, several ramp spells even help you fuel delirium, which gives the ramp deck a tutor a 1cmc Traverse the Ulvenwald. The deck may branch off into ramp decks that go to Ulamog, and ramp decks that resemble your GR devotion decks of standard Khs-Theros block.
The tools are there and with key removal spells gone/ Greedy mana bases gone, cards like Crumble to Dust get much better as SB options. Since this deck loses very little, I think saying it's not tier 1, if fine, but it's a deck that will have 95% of it's key pieces with only upside. it's going to wreck you. A ramp deck can with through obliteration man, I've done it. The deck packs so many more threats now.
Mono red looks meh, but aggro decks and various Eldrazi decks like:
Mono Blue, Mono Black, and Mono Red Eldrazi will show up as tier 1 decks early on.
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
mono red eldrazi will show up defiantly. from whateveryone is saying they don't think mono blue will be as good as its biggest draws were ghostfire blade(which I don't get anyway can be cvrammed in any shell) but the huge one was stubborn denial.
seen so many times were a guy would land smasher guy would try to remove it discard a card and get blown out by denial.
I'm not saying ramp won't be good in any form cause it will. my guess though is just like the current meta it will be meta driven. in any given week in the top 16 you'll see 3 or 4 show up one week and then none the next two. I think sure it'll be good but to what extent?
just casting multiple ramp spells doesn't help achieve delirium. if you gonna play traverse you gonna have to run stuff like hangarback, crawler, archive, and maybe some enchantments to try to get it there cause even last format it was good at putting sorcerys in its yard but not much else. only way that changes if you cast multiple nissa oaths and land a crawler or hanagrback in the yard with an instant which would either be traverse or return. the deck just doesn't support delirium very well.
though to be fair through testing online I did run into a intresnting jund build of the deck that supported delirum abit better. had duress mb along with a few removal spells just the mana was a little clunky. he used sinster concoction which helped him achieve delirum by just discarding what else he needed and removed a dude. was kinda scary when he got his man straight and online.
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Some form of CoCo
Esper control
perhaps either Abzan, or B/W control
That's all I'd put my money on so far.
As far as my opinion goes I've tested jund midrange, esper midrange, and the bw deck
So to me me I think tier 1 decks will be
B/w midrange
Jund midrange
G/w/x raptor/company deck
Atarka Red
Esper dragons
Tier 2
Non dragon esper control
W/X/x Token Based strategy
Grixis maybe?
U/b aristocrats
Again this is my personal opinion and it's just to early and no real data on the coming meta to know.
Maybe topplegeists as well,
Counter spells are just expensive and seem slow, still working on it
I honestly don't think the vampire aggro deck will be that good. You literally.gotta have a god hand I'm order to win against any midrange deck. Like t1 gorger T2 Heir t3 incorgiable
This has literally never been true as long as Dark-Dwellers has been a card.
OP: The only correct answers are RDW and Ramp. Ramp is a tier-1 deck in a higher power format and loses one "centerpiece" threat (Ugin, the Spirit Dragon) which was already seeing itself out in favor of alternatives which will still be legal (Dragonlord Atarka, Chandra, Flamecaller). RDW is always tier-1 for the first few weeks of the format, regardless of how bad the archetype actually is, because the environment at the beginning of a format so massively favors RDW. Everyone wants to jam their favorite pet 3-color midrange brew that ends up being a bad pile of good cards, and they're all too busy screwing around with nonsense to have even the most basic of countermeasures for opposing 1-drop -> 2-drop curves. Look at BFZ Standard for example, that Atarka Red deck was complete trash -- literally just a pile of the backups from KTK-THS Standard that didn't see play during that season, the deck got absolutely nothing from BFZ -- and still spiked opening weekend because most of the decks in the format failed to respect it.
There are some reasonable speculative options. BW Mid/Control is a good one. GW Tokens, GR Monsters and some variation of blue control (UB/UW/Esper) will all be represented in varying levels of soundness. But the two decks you must be able to beat are RDW and Ramp, full stop.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
I just don't see ramp being tier 1. Even last format it was very meta driven and when the GDD decks were popular with kcommand duress and infinite oblt. They did poorly but when jeskai and rally were big.it soared to the top.
I mean the deck will still be good I just think it's results will be meta driven.
Jund, atarka red, gwx raptor/company will most likely stay on top again imo. Stay on top amd.put up consistent results.
The biggest problem with the ramp deck is its only unanswerable win con being ulamog and how sensitive the deck is to.mulligans along with the fact a single duress can slow them enough to be inconsistent and stumble makes me.think it's gonna be tier 2.
I played mardu green and jeskai black and sure game 1 was rough but honestly with mardu green I always felt after board the deck was a breezero to beat but with dark jeskai it could be a little more eiffy.
Doesn't change the fact that they will most likely be running dorks and archive which sets them up for a huge blow out from k command.
And h ok neatly there's enough cards now that even game 1 ulamog is answerable.
Anguished unmaking, to the slaughter, pick the brain, transgress like I don't think ulamog will be a huge issue.
Hangarback Walker
Kalitas, traitor of ghet
Mindwrack Demon
Ob nixilis reignited
Beyond that your pretty threat light. I just think a second color is a ugly necessity.
Most atarka red decks will have to take the go wide token approach but it's just extremely.easy to hose them.
I don't agree. In weeks where people look to be experimenting a lot, Ramp loses nothing and remains a solid choice with or without the new cards. It also stays at 2 colors.
Not sure about RDW as this tier's iteration looks specially crappy and slow, but some people in TCG Player think Red Eldrazi could also be a thing.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13180&writer=Ali Aintrazi&articledate=3-23-2016
Mono red eldrazi pretty much folds to k command.
Pia and Kiran
Hedron crawler
Hedron archive.
Lack of real card advantge outside of chandra.
All there removal.is conditional or burn.
Only card they got that could be a problem is reality smasher and that's if they get it on they're type of curve of crawler into archive into smasher.
Chandra overall can be a issue but I mean if you run red you run chandra so it just depends on whoever lands there's second most of the tice
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Goblin Dark-Dwellers
Kolaghan's Command
Mindwrack Demon to fill the graveyard and as a top end threat.
I'm using Vessel of Paramnesia as an enabler for now. We didn't get much better as far as I can tell.
You can do things like T2 Jace, T3 Vessel and flip Jace, T4 Languish out of your hand or GY if you milled one.
I'm planning to post a list this weekend. Thought I'd mention something in case others have worked on it. Plus, I do predict something like this will appear at the top tables this season.
UBRGrixis Kiki Control
BGUSultai Shadow
GWRBushwhacker Zoo
EDH:
BGU Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose
GWU Roon of the Hidden Realm
Any deck with the Demon should have some number of Dark-Dwellers. It's a very real card, and plays very nicely with the Demon's self-mill.
Depends on the exact build, to be frank. If they are on a Hedron Archive/Mana Dork version, you can get some crippling value out of a timely Command. If you can answer the first volley of threats, the instant speed discard can secure a win. That said, it's wildly divergent as to how strong it is depending on the given board state and exact build of the ramp list.
What ramp is going to gain, however, has nothing to do with gaining anytihng, but rather that decks are going to be losing Crackling Doom. That's the troubling bit, methinks. That said, it's possible that it's hated out by other decks successfully preying on it. The fate of Ramp will be decided based solely on what *new* decks rotation brings us, not what is currently being run methinks.
You could make a argument for traverse but it'll be super hard for that deck to hit delirum and, even then beyond traverse nothing is out that adds any versatility to the deck or makes it any better. Ramp is basically tier2 now and with nothing changing and no real cards being added to it what makes people think that's gonna change.
Because most of there turns they play dork into ramp spell spell and of there playing lands every turn they get down to a card or two and with a timely command you can deny them a crucial 7th land for temple or deny them there threat.
Honestly the deck would be a non point but sanctum pretty much makes the deck.playable. so honestly if you ran crumb in the sb of your red deck and popped there sanctum it's very hard for them to win if you answer there first couple.of threats as after that they have to draw them naturally.
Ramp is successful but at times is very clunky.
2 cost mana dorks does make you some what weak to red removal. Still playing thought-knot seer and they have issues with him.
Ramp will be good come rotation.
It's gaining what other decks are losing. Like I said, it could have trouble with decks coming out of the new format. Or it could dominate them. It's pretty much impossible to say which will happen. Losing Ugin is a big deal, as it stabalizes any board state present immediately. While Kozilek's Return is very good, it does not deal with Planeswalkers nor does it deal with all problem creatures. Nor does Chandra for creatures (And can deal with Planeswalkers fairly well sometimes). While Ramp has shaved down on Ugins recently, there are a great many games that the deck leans heavily on it. Depending on how the format shakes out, it will be a major role-player or solidly tier 2. At least for the early season I'm willing to bet it's a tier 1 deck.
Ramp comprises about 10% of the current standard metagame, and is often ignored by people. This is largely due to Rally just eating it alive, to be honest (As ramp puts up only nominal resistance to the deck). It is the fourth highest winning deck in the format over the past two months. If that doesn't mean it's Tier 1, I don't know what does. Like I said, the surge in rally players has really hurt the deck (However, the surge of rally players has hurt *every* deck), but it's been a major deck since Oath. It hasn't put up number in the last week, but the last two months it has performed well.
The tools are there and with key removal spells gone/ Greedy mana bases gone, cards like Crumble to Dust get much better as SB options. Since this deck loses very little, I think saying it's not tier 1, if fine, but it's a deck that will have 95% of it's key pieces with only upside. it's going to wreck you. A ramp deck can with through obliteration man, I've done it. The deck packs so many more threats now.
Mono red looks meh, but aggro decks and various Eldrazi decks like:
Mono Blue, Mono Black, and Mono Red Eldrazi will show up as tier 1 decks early on.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
seen so many times were a guy would land smasher guy would try to remove it discard a card and get blown out by denial.
I'm not saying ramp won't be good in any form cause it will. my guess though is just like the current meta it will be meta driven. in any given week in the top 16 you'll see 3 or 4 show up one week and then none the next two. I think sure it'll be good but to what extent?
just casting multiple ramp spells doesn't help achieve delirium. if you gonna play traverse you gonna have to run stuff like hangarback, crawler, archive, and maybe some enchantments to try to get it there cause even last format it was good at putting sorcerys in its yard but not much else. only way that changes if you cast multiple nissa oaths and land a crawler or hanagrback in the yard with an instant which would either be traverse or return. the deck just doesn't support delirium very well.
though to be fair through testing online I did run into a intresnting jund build of the deck that supported delirum abit better. had duress mb along with a few removal spells just the mana was a little clunky. he used sinster concoction which helped him achieve delirum by just discarding what else he needed and removed a dude. was kinda scary when he got his man straight and online.