This thread is regressing. The optimal list was made more than 20 pages back at this point. I recently made a few small changes using post states results.
nezumi to board, silklash added to deck
--> Gifts did not impress me at states. I did not see it at the top tables at all and it lost out to alot of the decks because it just couldn't find the answers. However, the decks other weak matchup WWr did fairly well depending on where it was. If WWr is going to be played more than Gifts than we should reserve a mainboard slot for it then.
Anyone who has dropped a silklash against WWr or most aggro knows its GG unless they are holding char+ helix or a putrefy.
dropped a Kokusho for another Scarab.
--> personal preference, I did this long before states anyway.
-1 Arena.
-->TotT's list was actually 61 cards. In a pm he told me he does this to throw off mill. Well seeing as mill isnt really rampant in my area, I figured this was the card to cut since its a weak four of but a godly 3 of.
Rend Flesh/Naturalize
--> I cant find the right number here. If I run the 4 rends in the main and the naturalizes in the board, I find myslef losing to silly enchantments (annex, dream leash, faith's fetters, all good form enchants, etc.) But If a switch them, I constantly lose to WWr and other aggro while holding dead cards. I Tried 2 of each in the main and in the board but I never had the card I needed. I'm quite puzzled and would appreciate imput here.
Wow I leave for a few days and you guys tear the deck apart..... ets see.... wrath is uneeded who ever posted that CaD straight up wins games and allows 1-2 of less valueable creature in certain matches.....GSS INK-Eyes, etc. But Blue is just bad in Rock. Now that does not mean U is bad because personally I love BUG but tha is a whole different deck. I'm just amazed that people cannot see this.
EDIT: Oh and Gleancrawler is horrible its subpar to everything run inkeyes or run more kokushos they actually do something like give a 20 point life swing.... i hear that wins games...
I completely disagree about Gleancrawler. But to each his own, I guess.
i've actually been playing with 65 cards, not for mil, but just cuz there's a few cards i really would rather not cut...im playing sickening shoals and it works out gorgous...anyone here playing tops or no? tops and scarabs = hotness imo
You're better off cutting those extra 5 cards simply because the power of consistency can be greater than the power of versatility (the versatility you're gaining by running an extra 5 cards). However, one of this deck's main strengths is that it has versatility as it stands - it can control weenie decks and become an aggressor in the control matchup.
Where might you be finding these lists from states? I'd like to have a look-see at how things went down.
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I'm just watching a dream I can never wake up from
"These aren't the droids you're looking for... and you owe me twenty bucks."
Jedi Mind Trix
www.starcitygames.com is where i've been looking. and i know that the 5 cards can probably be cut but so far so good, unless it craps out on me im gonna keep it as it is i suppose.
why is everyone running only 1-2 grave shell? Grave-shell a friggin amazing. I would at least put in 3-4 grave-shells.
At states I personally boarded my scarabs. I had two on board because I find that they are amazing against a permission control deck in which they provide a reccurssion spell that must be countered every turn. The main problem with running them main is that they are a 4/4 for five which isnt up to par with the rest of the thematic large beating creatures of the deck that have instances of evasion or secondary abilities that help control the game.
I also found that their is a large amount of graverobbers running around the meta game. This may be only in my area (as can be seen here) but it does effectively get rid of the scarab.
In its place I would place kokusho, kagemaro, loxodon heirarch, or ink eyes. All of these creatures are highly effective in this deck and are quite low costed in comparison to the scarab.
(and yes.... I do see that the top eight for my state had four scarabs in his main deck... )
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Currently playing:
Type 2 WBU Solar Flare
The dragon. The symbol of ultimate wisdom yet infinite power.
I don't think BG Control can do anything against a U-based Deck.
We don't play a lot of spells by turn, most of them are not very good against mono-U control for example like congregation which is certainly a good card but against this kind of deck showing what u will play in the next 3 turns is not very good IMO.
I think that this is a very deifficult matchup which can be more easy if u have Hypnotic specter that can arrive early in the game (turn2 is very good). I think that hypno is a good card VS a lot of decks because it's an early beater and can break an ooponent's hand.
on the contrary my dear freind I love showin tha mono-U player my next three cards WHEN THEY ARE INK-EYES, GSS ,GSS.....enough said. this deck drives mon-U into the ground. BUt BUG on the other hand can be a very very tough match same with MAGA(pity it got leaked.)
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Quote from mastab3690 »
yes turning of the tide that was a nice, props on breaking the deck
I've only played a few matches against it but it wasn't really a problem. I just boarded in 4 naturalize and 4 cranials and won without fail. 3 persecutes, 4 cranial, 4 naturalize was auto win.
Scarab I've found is great against White-X control decks, as it just won't die, but against everything else, as people have mentioned, it's not big enough to get past a Caryatid, has no evasion, and is just really a 4/4 for 5. I'm SBing my two for something else yet undecided.
once agin i have taken the advice of the forum and yes, gleancrawler is sub par. i have since changed him to kokusho again. so the deck will stay the same but instead of the glencrawler ill have kokusho. i running this friday so ill tell you guys how it did.
once agin i have taken the advice of the forum and yes, gleancrawler is sub par. i have since changed him to kokusho again. so the deck will stay the same but instead of the glencrawler ill have kokusho. i running this friday so ill tell you guys how it did.
And I will continue to defend Gleancrawler. In fact, I've added a third to my deck. It's just insane with Kokusho. Of course, I'm running 4 Kokos AND 3 Crawlers now, so it's not a case of either/or with me.
How come nobody's running Shadow of Doubt? I've got 4 MD (don't have list in front of me atm, sorry), because with Birds you can stunt somebody's mana accel when they try to sac Sakura-Tribe Elder, and it pretty much takes a big smelly dump on anybody playing Gifts. Also shuts down the Sunforger portion of the Smoking Weed deck.
I run a much more control/shutdown-heavy style of deck because my meta is almost exclusively control, but I think even if you run in an aggro-heavy environment it should be at least worth a few SB slots.
Well... you say it because you think about a bad mono-U deck i think ...
When i test my mono-U VS my Rock and any Rock i played it's an auto-win for the mono-U deck. indeed, this kind of deck has so many answers to yours ( counters, threads on birds, boomerang, last gap and rend flesh in splashing deck ) that the win against it is very very difficult.
Versus UBG aggro and maga that's sure it's an auto-lose, they are quicklyer than us, discard more cards for UBG.
That's why i think that hypno is a good choice in the metagame, to have an eraly beater like i said and to break opponent's hand.
when you say he is testing against a bad mono U i think that it is just you that is testing a bad version of the rock ebcause i have never had any problem with mono U persecute, shortfang, distress make the game rly easy so does extraction
Every time I destroy an opponent's creature, I jump on the table, yell "Boo ya, you son of a *****!", rip the card in half, urinate on it, then forcefully shove it down my opponent's throat.
Needless to say, I don't have many players in my playgroup anymore.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
BB: Draw a card? And what cards are you cutting to run that?
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Which color are you?
Non-Judge - Comprehensive Rules Delver
|| Autocard || My Latest Project || Random quote of the last time I updated my sig:
"...FOMG THE SCROLL LOCK KEY DOES SOMETHING "
You play persecute + distress + shortfang in main deck ????
What are your matchs-up VS aggro ? Aren't the 2 blacks from distress not too difficult to have on turn 2 ?
If you want we can test our decks in MWS.
I'm plouften on AIM and plouften02[at]msn.com on Msn Messenger
of course i dont MD them are you rly that dumb. i only MD the persecute and have 3 of the fang and the distress in my board because ontrol is rly big around me and normally i distress around turn 3-4 and it is easy enough.
TOTT CaD was an awsome addittion and there is no way it is coming out of my deck.
O and I just got done with a MUC match vs my freinds list(solid) and lets say double GSS won me the game.... he never got a creature out for more than a turn.
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Quote from mastab3690 »
yes turning of the tide that was a nice, props on breaking the deck
BB: Draw a card? And what cards are you cutting to run that?
You don't need to *cut* anything. There are a few cards that are less than superior to this one. Just because its not hot vs. aggro doesn't mean its useless.
It stops Reaches, Sakuras, Cranials, Transmuters, Gifts, and a slew of other things that can buy you cheap disrupton vs control. Most of those things are incorporated in Gifts anyway, and BG Control needs all the help it can get vs Gifts.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
You don't need to *cut* anything. There are a few cards that are less than superior to this one. Just because its not hot vs. aggro doesn't mean its useless.
It stops Reaches, Sakuras, Cranials, Transmuters, Gifts, and a slew of other things that can buy you cheap disrupton vs control. Most of those things are incorporated in Gifts anyway, and BG Control needs all the help it can get vs Gifts.
Gifts is dying. I agree a well drawn well built gifts deck can be tough but its not impossible and certainly doesnt require any more boarding other than cranial extraction. Cranial does the job better and against alot more decks.
Okay, time for another update. I'm not liking the GG combo much anymore -- it's just too easily disrupted. And each time I pull a Void, I wish it was a Cranial instead.
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
Utility
4 Putrefy
4 Rend Flesh/Naturalize
3 Persecute
3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Congregation at Dawn
Creatures
3 Kokusho, the evening star
3 Kagemaro, First to suffer
3 Loxodon Hierarch
2 Grave-Shell Scarab
1 Ink-Eye's, Servant to Oni
1 Silklash Spider
5 Forest
1 Okina
5 Swamp
1 Shizo
2 Plains
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Miren, The Moaning well
4 Cranial Extraction
4 Naturalize/Rend Flesh
3 Hideous Laughter
1 Congregation at Dawn
1 Nezumi Graverobber
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Isao, Enlightened Bushi
Changes I made were as follows:
nezumi to board, silklash added to deck
--> Gifts did not impress me at states. I did not see it at the top tables at all and it lost out to alot of the decks because it just couldn't find the answers. However, the decks other weak matchup WWr did fairly well depending on where it was. If WWr is going to be played more than Gifts than we should reserve a mainboard slot for it then.
Anyone who has dropped a silklash against WWr or most aggro knows its GG unless they are holding char+ helix or a putrefy.
dropped a Kokusho for another Scarab.
--> personal preference, I did this long before states anyway.
-1 Arena.
-->TotT's list was actually 61 cards. In a pm he told me he does this to throw off mill. Well seeing as mill isnt really rampant in my area, I figured this was the card to cut since its a weak four of but a godly 3 of.
Rend Flesh/Naturalize
--> I cant find the right number here. If I run the 4 rends in the main and the naturalizes in the board, I find myslef losing to silly enchantments (annex, dream leash, faith's fetters, all good form enchants, etc.) But If a switch them, I constantly lose to WWr and other aggro while holding dead cards. I Tried 2 of each in the main and in the board but I never had the card I needed. I'm quite puzzled and would appreciate imput here.
I completely disagree about Gleancrawler. But to each his own, I guess.
Where might you be finding these lists from states? I'd like to have a look-see at how things went down.
"These aren't the droids you're looking for... and you owe me twenty bucks."
Jedi Mind Trix
At states I personally boarded my scarabs. I had two on board because I find that they are amazing against a permission control deck in which they provide a reccurssion spell that must be countered every turn. The main problem with running them main is that they are a 4/4 for five which isnt up to par with the rest of the thematic large beating creatures of the deck that have instances of evasion or secondary abilities that help control the game.
I also found that their is a large amount of graverobbers running around the meta game. This may be only in my area (as can be seen
here) but it does effectively get rid of the scarab.
In its place I would place kokusho, kagemaro, loxodon heirarch, or ink eyes. All of these creatures are highly effective in this deck and are quite low costed in comparison to the scarab.
(and yes.... I do see that the top eight for my state had four scarabs in his main deck... )
Type 2
WBU Solar Flare
The dragon. The symbol of ultimate wisdom yet infinite power.
on the contrary my dear freind I love showin tha mono-U player my next three cards WHEN THEY ARE INK-EYES, GSS ,GSS.....enough said. this deck drives mon-U into the ground. BUt BUG on the other hand can be a very very tough match same with MAGA(pity it got leaked.)
I've only played a few matches against it but it wasn't really a problem. I just boarded in 4 naturalize and 4 cranials and won without fail. 3 persecutes, 4 cranial, 4 naturalize was auto win.
Thanks to xeno for the sig and avvy!!!
And I will continue to defend Gleancrawler. In fact, I've added a third to my deck. It's just insane with Kokusho. Of course, I'm running 4 Kokos AND 3 Crawlers now, so it's not a case of either/or with me.
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Gleancrawler
1 Grave-Shell Scarab
1 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
2 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
1 Kodama of the North Tree
4 Kokusho, the Evening Star
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
//Spells (18)
4 Greater Good
4 Last Gasp
3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Plague Boiler
4 Putrefy
1 Sensei's Divining Top
5 Forest
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Svogthos, the Restless Tomb
5 Swamp
4 Cranial Extraction
2 Hideous Laughter
3 Naturalize
4 Rend Flesh
2 Vigor Mortis
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
Utility
4 Putrefy
4 Last Gasp
3 Persecute
3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Congregation at Dawn
Creatures
3 Kokusho, the evening star
3 Kagemaro, First to suffer
3 Loxodon Hierarch
2 Grave-Shell Scarab
1 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
1 Arashi, The Sky Asunder
5 Forest
1 Okina
5 Swamp
1 Shizo
2 Plains
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Miren, The Moaning well
4 Cranial Extraction
4 Naturalize
3 Hideous Laughter
1 Congregation at Dawn
1 Nezumi Graverobber
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Isao, Enlightened Bushi
Forgot about Arashi, so I dropped the spider for him.
(great tutor for CaD seeing as you can put it on top then channel it next turn)
States results have thrown alot more aggro into the enviroment other than just WWr. so I opted for last gasps.
I run a much more control/shutdown-heavy style of deck because my meta is almost exclusively control, but I think even if you run in an aggro-heavy environment it should be at least worth a few SB slots.
when you say he is testing against a bad mono U i think that it is just you that is testing a bad version of the rock ebcause i have never had any problem with mono U persecute, shortfang, distress make the game rly easy so does extraction
*Goes to read it...*
Yep, I was right. It cantrips.
Which color are you?
Non-Judge - Comprehensive Rules Delver
|| Autocard || My Latest Project ||
Random quote of the last time I updated my sig:
"...FOMG THE SCROLL LOCK KEY DOES SOMETHING "
I would even distress over this
of course i dont MD them are you rly that dumb. i only MD the persecute and have 3 of the fang and the distress in my board because ontrol is rly big around me and normally i distress around turn 3-4 and it is easy enough.
TOTT CaD was an awsome addittion and there is no way it is coming out of my deck.
You don't need to *cut* anything. There are a few cards that are less than superior to this one. Just because its not hot vs. aggro doesn't mean its useless.
It stops Reaches, Sakuras, Cranials, Transmuters, Gifts, and a slew of other things that can buy you cheap disrupton vs control. Most of those things are incorporated in Gifts anyway, and BG Control needs all the help it can get vs Gifts.
Gifts is dying. I agree a well drawn well built gifts deck can be tough but its not impossible and certainly doesnt require any more boarding other than cranial extraction. Cranial does the job better and against alot more decks.
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Gleancrawler
1 Grave-Shell Scarab
1 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
2 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
3 Keening Banshee
1 Kodama of the North Tree
4 Kokusho, the Evening Star
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
//Spells (16)
2 Farseek
4 Last Gasp
3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Plague Boiler
4 Putrefy
1 Sensei's Divining Top
5 Forest
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Svogthos, the Restless Tomb
5 Swamp
4 Cranial Extraction
3 Hideous Laughter
4 Naturalize
4 Rend Flesh